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Old 28th September 2020, 10:42 AM   #241
Leftus
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No wonder the IRS takeover was more important than anything else to Trump after the inauguration.
What takeover? I don't remember any major staffing changes, except what normally happens during any administration change.

And the audits date back before he was president. And continue to this day, apparently. No claims of meddling. But, IMHO, they should have closed it, issued the Notice of Deficiency, and let it go to tax court. Never worked in examinations, I could be wrong.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:46 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay we need to address this.

... "Oh I'm not talking about this core group of supporters. Of course their opinions won't be changed. No I'm talking about..."

... 538 and 270 and Reuters and AP and NBC and ABC and all those organizations that are showing these same trends of just literally nothing affecting Trump's "40% +/- the margin of error of the poll" level of support which has stayed exactly the same since the moron got the nomination aren't somehow magically going around asking people who are already sure about how they think of Trump to the point that nothing can change their mind and no one else....

There are swing voters. There are undecided voters. There are fence sitters. What there is not is a magical tipping point demographic of people having their opinions changed about Trump who all just up and decided to never talk to pollsters but who are magically going to decide to show up at the polls in about a month.

2016 was a game of inches in the margins of a few counties. 2020 will be the same. There will be no "wave."
First, see the highlighted, you answered your own question about who "they" is.

As for that 40%, and a game of inches, do you think the 'approveódisapprove' polls mean we're good, Trump is going to lose 60:40?

40% approve but another 10% are going to vote for him anyway and the tax returns won't change their mind?

How do you figure there is no middle when you yourself say there are fence sitters?

And if it's a game of inches, how would this not matter?

Trump has been ripping taxpayers off. That is going to be emphasized in the next 4 weeks despite the fact some here seem to be glossing over that aspect of the tax report.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:47 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hope that Democrats resist the urge to jeer Trump for being broke. The real story is that he's a tax cheat.

Mocking someone for being broke not exactly a crowd pleaser, especially in the current economy.
The real story is the corruption, tax cheating and ripping taxpayers off well beyond his golf outings.
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Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 28th September 2020 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:55 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Of course you don't because your idea of "something happening" only accepts "Uprising"

You don't want change. You want revolution. It's why you reject anyone who wants to fix the system as not pure enough.

You don't care Biden isn't "progressive" enough*. You care that he isn't combative enough. You want him to stand there and waste time reminding all us that "The system was broken the entire time and if you support me you'll be able to tell everyone I toldyaso."

You are far more interested in being proven right about how much things always sucked then you are in making anything better.

*https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/21/opini...hen/index.html
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:56 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
First, see the highlighted, you answered your own question about who "they" is.

As for that 40%, and a game of inches, do you think the 'approveódisapprove' polls mean we're good, Trump is going to lose 60:40?

40% approve but another 10% are going to vote for him anyway and the tax returns won't change their mind?

How do you figure there is no middle when you yourself say there are fence sitters?

And if it's a game of inches, how would this not matter?

Trump has been ripping taxpayers off. That is going to be emphasized in the next 4 weeks despite the fact some here seem to be glossing over that aspect of the tax report.
This is an important point. Remember, as recently as two months ago, Biden was polling seven percent ahead in Florida. This seems to me to be a clear indication that there's room for movement and this could do that. There are still the Obama-let's try a businessperson Trump voter out that who has demonstrated the willingness to move between extremes. It's not all about his base.
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Old 28th September 2020, 10:57 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Regarding that "consultant" payment to Ivanka: What did she do with the money? Is it reported on her taxes? My guess is she passed it on to some other "consultant". It's money laundering.
Good point.

A quick look shows she hid it in a consulting company meaning she could pretend her actual income was less.
Quote:
Ivanka Trump’s public disclosure forms – which she filed when joining the White House staff in 2017 – show that she had received an identical amount through a consulting company she co-owned.”
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 28th September 2020 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:05 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think there is one immediate and very critical result that will come from the release of the tax returns:

no major law firm will represent him without cash up front.
Cue Lionel Hutz, attorney at law.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:07 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
$750 was for one year of taxes and $70k was for several years of coiffing.
Scaramucci just said that everyone knows he dressses his own hair because he's embarrassed about the comb-over. Although I doubt he cuts it himself.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:07 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
What takeover? I don't remember any major staffing changes, except what normally happens during any administration change.
....

But that's enough. If Trump's guys are at the top, that's all he needs. His IRS chief makes money renting out a couple Trump properties. And IRS staffing has been cut drastically in recent years.
Quote:
IRS Commissioner Charles Rettig has earned at least $100,000 per year renting out properties at a Trump-branded resort in Hawaii, according to his financial disclosure.
https://www.salon.com/2020/09/02/tru...new-documents/

Quote:
Budget cuts have hollowed out the IRSís enforcement abilities, leaving tens of billions of dollars in money thatís owed to Uncle Sam and could have been collected, had Capitol Hill ponied up, the Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...s-budget-cuts/
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:14 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This should make it possible for Dems to have the IRS leadship investigated.
Two decades takes us back through 3 different administrations and 10 IRS Commissioners, and 11 Secretaries of the Treasury, you really think it would be wise, or productive? That any corruption would last through multiple administrations?
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:20 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
750 bucks? Jesus Christ some upper middle class people pay that to have their taxes done!
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Murdering people is hypothetical. But taxes...almost everybody else in America pays taxes, and a very large percentage of his own voting base pays more than $750 a year.
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
$750? I pay more than ten times that much every year. I guess I'm just a sucker and a loser.
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In 2017 when Trump paid $750 in taxes JoeBiden paid $3.7 million.
Every single one of you is wrong, and none of you bothered to check.

Where does that $750 figure come from? Early on, the linked story says,
In 2017, the presidentís $750 contribution to the operations of the U.S. government was dwarfed by the $15,598 he or his companies paid in Panama, the $145,400 in India and the $156,824 in the Philippines.
Significantly later, though, that same story says,
Each time, he requested an extension to file his 1040; and each time, he made the required payment to the I.R.S. for income taxes he might owe ó $1 million for 2016 and $4.2 million for 2017.
So no, Trump didn't pay $750 in taxes in 2017. He paid $4.2 million.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:33 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But that's enough. If Trump's guys are at the top, that's all he needs. His IRS chief makes money renting out a couple Trump properties. And IRS staffing has been cut drastically in recent years.
I'm acutely aware of the staffing issue, as I work there. Most of those cuts came during the Obama administration, as well as the change of focus between taxpayer services and collections. The IRS, recently, as in the current administration, has been hiring. Not as much as we need, but it's getting better.

Do you think Rettig is sending out emails to the auditors running the examinations? Or that the auditors have no recourse but to follow such instructions?
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:36 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Every single one of you is wrong, and none of you bothered to check.

Where does that $750 figure come from? Early on, the linked story says,
In 2017, the president’s $750 contribution to the operations of the U.S. government was dwarfed by the $15,598 he or his companies paid in Panama, the $145,400 in India and the $156,824 in the Philippines.
Significantly later, though, that same story says,
Each time, he requested an extension to file his 1040; and each time, he made the required payment to the I.R.S. for income taxes he might owe — $1 million for 2016 and $4.2 million for 2017.
So no, Trump didn't pay $750 in taxes in 2017. He paid $4.2 million.
What is it like to be that selectively honest?

Literally in the SENTENCE RIGHT AFTER THE ONE YOU POSTED it says

"But virtually all of that liability was washed away when he eventually filed, and most of the payments were rolled forward to cover potential taxes in future years."

What did you think was gonna happen? None of use would check? Do you think we would just take that kind of lie on nothing but your word?

And nice of you to finally join the discussion of your God-king's latest sin when you think you've found something to nitpick.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:38 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
Newspapers have a long history of assuring anonymity to certain sources for obvious reasons. You may remember The NY Times and Deep Throat. All the acquisitions later proved completely accurate.

Of course Trump could discredit the N.Y. Times totally by releasing his taxes at any time. Which despite lying otherwise he can legally do despite being under audit.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:42 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Some say Trump being broke is the best wedge issue. Others, that he cheated.

I lean to the former, if the plan is to sow doubt in the MAGAhats. That Donnie cheats is a plus in their estimation; he's a rebel outside the system, doing what they'd like to do.

To stress that he's not the creature Mark Burnett built up, not the consummate winner in business that he pathologically pretends to be, well that could shake their faith in him as the man to "run the country like a business."

But word has first got to filter through the self-imposed media bubble around the cultists.
And I say the key issue is he's cheating the taxpayers and his corruption is over the top.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:42 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Some say Trump being broke is the best wedge issue. Others, that he cheated.

I lean to the former, if the plan is to sow doubt in the MAGAhats. That Donnie cheats is a plus in their estimation; he's a rebel outside the system, doing what they'd like to do.
That he's a fraud. His entire life is a lie. Not sure "broke" doesn't backfire.

Maybe also planting the idea in the right place that he is in reality a plant to frustrate Q on behalf of the child sex trafficking cabal. He does this to get out of debt.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:44 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Newspapers have a long history of assuring anonymity to certain sources for obvious reasons. You may remember The NY Times and Deep Throat. All the acquisitions later proved completely accurate.

Of course Trump could discredit the N.Y. Times totally by releasing his taxes at any time. Which despite lying otherwise he can legally do despite being under audit.
None of that matters. No evidence means rejection.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:44 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
.....
So no, Trump didn't pay $750 in taxes in 2017. He paid $4.2 million.
Neither Trump himself nor his reps have offered that explanation. But he could clear up all questions by releasing his tax returns for the last 25 years or so. But he hasn't. Gee, I wonder why?
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:48 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I'm acutely aware of the staffing issue, as I work there. Most of those cuts came during the Obama administration, as well as the change of focus between taxpayer services and collections. The IRS, recently, as in the current administration, has been hiring. Not as much as we need, but it's getting better.

Do you think Rettig is sending out emails to the auditors running the examinations? Or that the auditors have no recourse but to follow such instructions?
I'm sure the boss is not providing a paper trail. But in large organizations, the rank-and-file senses what is expected to avoid trouble. The auditors are already overworked. Why should they stick their necks out to go after Trump when there are easier targets? Surely efficient, aggressive auditors could have closed this case years ago if they wanted to.

And staffing reductions are largely the result of Republican cuts in the IRS budget. It's not like Obama ever said "let's collect less taxes."
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:49 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
...

And the audits date back before he was president. And continue to this day, apparently. No claims of meddling. But, IMHO, they should have closed it, issued the Notice of Deficiency, and let it go to tax court. Never worked in examinations, I could be wrong.
I think it's one audit. Trump makes it seem like they are currently auditing him but from those tax records he's fighting over one year's taxes.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:49 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
None of that matters. No evidence means rejection.
NY times description of the documents is evidence. The reporters are effectively witnesses.

Not admissible in court, but reality isn't governed by formal rules of evidence.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:50 AM   #262
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Nits are important to pick when trying to defend Trump or they will reveal just how lice infested he is. I do recommend wearing gloves: they have been easily transferred to his colleagues.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:51 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What is it like to be that selectively honest?

Literally in the SENTENCE RIGHT AFTER THE ONE YOU POSTED it says

"But virtually all of that liability was washed away when he eventually filed, and most of the payments were rolled forward to cover potential taxes in future years."

What did you think was gonna happen? None of use would check?

And nice of you to finally join the discussion of your God-king's latest sin when you think you've found something to nitpick.
You're going to try to lecture me about selective honesty?

First off, a lot of those claims were explicitly about what he paid, not what his liability was. Those claims are wrong, he paid $4.2 million. You didn't specify whether you were talking about liability or payment, which is itself "selectively honest", as you put it, but your selectiveness goes deeper. Even zero liability is quite common for businesses in years where they have a net loss. When tax liability varies greatly from year to year because of variations in income, cherry picking one year as if it was representative is the epitome of "selective honesty". So you've got no grounds on which to criticize me on that score.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:52 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Neither Trump himself nor his reps have offered that explanation.
The NYT offers that explanation. If you're going to rely on the NYT's reporting, you have to read all of it.
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:54 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
NY times description of the documents is evidence. The reporters are effectively witnesses.

Not admissible in court, but reality isn't governed by formal rules of evidence.
They are the people making the claim.

How would your method work for physics papers? The data section is merely an assertion by the researcher that they saw the data behind their conclusions?
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:55 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
None of that matters. No evidence means rejection.
Despite the long history of how crucial this has been to reveal key facts by journalists. Does this also apply to Trump when he not only fails to provide evidence but says things that contract...

Oops, ha, ha, you got me! How silly of me! Never mind...
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:57 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Despite the long history of how crucial this has been to reveal key facts by journalists. Does this also apply to Trump when he not only fails to provide evidence but says things that contract...

Oops, ha, ha, you got me! How silly of me! Never mind...
It applies to everything!
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Old 28th September 2020, 11:58 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
....
Of course Trump could discredit the N.Y. Times totally by releasing his taxes at any time. Which despite lying otherwise he can legally do despite being under audit.
Anybody else notice when Trump makes up his first response he has a specific way of talking?
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:01 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
It boils down to credibility. In this case, we have the NYT with its long history of excellent investigative journalism. It has won 130 Pulitzer prizes. On the other hand, we have Donald Trump who holds the record for number of lies told by any president: 20,000+ in less than 4 years.

We also have the fact that the NYT would be subject to a defamation suit should they be publishing false information about Trump without the evidence to back it up and have a team of excellent lawyers who would have vetted all information. Gee.....let me see whom I would believe...the NYT or Trump....hmmm.....
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:01 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They are the people making the claim.

How would your method work for physics papers? The data section is merely an assertion by the researcher that they saw the data behind their conclusions?
I guess that would be up to the physicists what standards they have. But yes, a researcher claiming to see something is evidence, just that it might not meet customary standards for a formal scientific paper.

Some people want to conflate the idea of "no evidence" with "no conclusive proof."
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:02 PM   #271
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:05 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post

Wide-scale tax evasion by the wealthy seems like an issue that could really drum up popular support that could lead to a political mandate, but I guess I'm just dreaming of a different Democratic Party that actually believed in such things.
You are dreaming about a different electorate. In the real world 50% of the US electorate would view such tax evasion as a virtue.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:07 PM   #273
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Tomorrow night I hope Biden says something along the lines of...

Are you the biggest loser in the history of business, or a tax cheat? The American people deserve to know.

The $70,000 you deducted for your haircuts is more than most Americans make in two years working full time.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:07 PM   #274
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As a scientist I canít resist adding one last point. A scientific paper absolutely carries the assumption that the data reported is not made up. Very, very rarely it is. But respectable scientists, like respectable journalists, view making up data as deeply morally abhorrent. The ultimate confirmation is when others confirm the same data.

Bye Bob for now.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:08 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It boils down to credibility. In this case, we have the NYT with its long history of excellent investigative journalism. It has won 130 Pulitzer prizes.
Including one for Walter Duranty.

Quote:
We also have the fact that the NYT would be subject to a defamation suit should they be publishing false information about Trump without the evidence to back it up and have a team of excellent lawyers who would have vetted all information.
Well, no. The lawyers should check that what they print matches the information they have. The lawyers do not have to confirm the information they have is correct, let alone complete. It's very, very hard for a public figure like Trump to win a defamation suit in the US, even when the information in question is provably wrong.

That being said, I have no problem with provisionally accepting the NYT's story as being accurate, but likely not complete. Not seeing much scandal here, though.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:10 PM   #276
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
As a scientist I canít resist adding one last point. A scientific paper absolutely carries the assumption that the data reported is not made up. Very, very rarely it is. But respectable scientists, like respectable journalists, view making up data as deeply morally abhorrent. The ultimate confirmation is when others confirm the same data.

Bye Bob for now.
When they put out their data for peer review, I will be willing to accept their claim.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:10 PM   #277
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Sorry, duplication.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:10 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The NYT offers that explanation. If you're going to rely on the NYT's reporting, you have to read all of it.

So do you.
Quote:
Each time, he requested an extension to file his 1040; and each time, he made the required payment to the I.R.S. for income taxes he might owe ó $1 million for 2016 and $4.2 million for 2017. But virtually all of that liability was washed away when he eventually filed, and most of the payments were rolled forward to cover potential taxes in future years.

To cancel out the tax bills, Mr. Trump made use of $9.7 million in business investment credits, at least some of which related to his renovation of the Old Post Office hotel, which qualified for a historic-preservation tax break. Although he had more than enough credits to owe no taxes at all, his accountants appear to have carved out an allowance for a small tax liability for both 2016 and 2017.

When they got to line 56, the one for income taxes due, the amount was the same each year: $750.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ump-taxes.html
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:12 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The NYT offers that explanation. If you're going to rely on the NYT's reporting, you have to read all of it.
I did. Did you notice the millions he got from Duterte, Modi and Erdogan?
Quote:
And while much of that money was from his golf properties in Scotland and Ireland, some came from licensing deals in countries with authoritarian-leaning leaders or thorny geopolitics ó for example, $3 million from the Philippines, $2.3 million from India and $1 million from Turkey.
Here's more on that corruption from a Vanity Fair report: ďONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT POTENTIAL CONFLICTS OF INTEREST IN AMERICAN HISTORYĒ: HOW EVERYONE FROM FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS TO FEDERAL CONTRACTORS IS QUIETLY LINING TRUMPíS POCKETS

I posted it earlier.
Quote:
or additional evidence that the president is violating the American constitution, all you need to do is walk onto the 20th floor of Trump Tower. The Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, which is majority-owned by the Chinese government, has an office there, in a deal that has been reported on periodically. Of all the foreign government payments that spark allegations that Trump is flouting the emoluments clause, none involve more money than this one.

According to a 2012 debt prospectus filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Chinese bank paid $1.9 million of rent a year, as part of a lease that was set to run out on October 31, 2019. The expiration date landed in the middle of Trumpís first term in office. Which apparently means that the presidentís two eldest sons, Eric and Don Jr., who took over day-to-day management of the presidentís business when their father ascended to the presidency, were in a position to negotiate with the Chinese over how much money they would pay President Trumpówhile President Trump simultaneously negotiated with China as part of his massive trade war.
Want to bribe the POTUS? Lease an expensive office in a Trump Tower, no need to occupy the office. Trump might only get 30% so you have to pay out accordingly.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:14 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
See Zigg? Two people found the dishonesty and cherry picking in your argument without even breaking a sweat within a few minutes.
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