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Tags Allais Effect , Dark Flow , relativity , Theory of Relativity

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Old 19th September 2016, 04:54 AM   #3241
halleyscomet
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NASA scientists detect Dark Flow across the universe!
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/...dark_flow.html
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Old 19th September 2016, 09:43 AM   #3242
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Why would you need expensive atomic clocks if you are synchonizing the read outs?

Hans
Because it is then straight forward to calculate signal time to position
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Old 19th September 2016, 10:03 AM   #3243
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You learned to lie about science in the kindergarten, Bjarne ?
15 September 2016 Bjarne: A lie of "2. Synchronize the clock" for GPS satellites.
GPS clocks are adjusted for SR and GR before launch.
Then 2 SOPS contacts each GPS satellite regularly with a navigational update using dedicated or shared (AFSCN) ground antennas (GPS dedicated ground antennas are located at Kwajalein, Ascension Island, Diego Garcia, and Cape Canaveral). These updates synchronize the atomic clocks on board the satellites to within a few nanoseconds of each other, and adjust the ephemeris of each satellite's internal orbital model. "
https://www.quora.com/Do-GPS-satelli...-time-dilation
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Old 19th September 2016, 10:08 AM   #3244
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You mean the link I have you weeks ago and that you still cannot understand, Bjarne?
This is the real world of the ACES experiment on General Relativity:
Launch in August 2017.
6 months of calibration (early 2018).
18-36 months of operation = at least early 2019 before data is available to be analyzed.
Scientists write a paper and get it published means that the earliest we can expect the results is late 2019.

..
The expected anomaly is so significant, I think it will be discovered long time before 2019, notice the Galileo Satellites are already in action so fare I understand. The expected Galileo anomalies will be smaller, but still easy to discover.
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Old 19th September 2016, 10:09 AM   #3245
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Then 2 SOPS contacts each GPS satellite regularly with a navigational update using dedicated or shared (AFSCN) ground antennas (GPS dedicated ground antennas are located at Kwajalein, Ascension Island, Diego Garcia, and Cape Canaveral). These updates synchronize the atomic clocks on board the satellites to within a few nanoseconds of each other, and adjust the ephemeris of each satellite's internal orbital model. "
https://www.quora.com/Do-GPS-satelli...-time-dilation
You left out this part:

Quote:
Time dilation is already allowed for in the construction of the clocks: they're built to run slightly slow on the ground so they run at the desired rate at altitude. The updates are just to fix random drift.
It's still a good start. Now, look up how BIG those corrections are. For your theory to hold water, satellites in a polar orbit need to have a 2 to 3 microsecond drift not accounted for in the calculations for relativity and not observed in satellites with an equatorial orbit. Given the nanosecond accuracy needed for these clocks, a 2 to 4 microsecond drift would stick out like a sore thumb painted with phosphorescent paint with a lit sparkler taped to it.

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Because it is then straight forward to calculate signal time to position
Not if they're off by 2 to 4 microseconds in polar orbits as your theory requires. The variance would be too large for them to be useful, even WITH constant correction.
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Old 19th September 2016, 10:12 AM   #3246
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
The expected anomaly is so significant, I think it will be discovered long time before 2019, notice the Galileo Satellites are already in action so fare I understand. The expected Galileo anomalies will be smaller, but still easy to discover.
A 2 to 4 nanosecond variance for satellites in a polar orbit not detected in satellites with an equatorial orbit would have been noticed by the 1970's, possibly earlier.

But hey you keep chasing that whale. It entertains us.
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Old 19th September 2016, 11:59 AM   #3247
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Because it is then straight forward to calculate signal time to position
No, it isn't. That level of precision is not the easiest thing to do.

Do you really have so little clue of the real world?

Are you really so incognisent of the actual scientific and engineering effort involved?

Do you really believe that your smart phone sprang from the womb, freeborn and fully formed?

It is often said that we stand upon the shoulders of giants. You want to slay the giants.

And please do not cite the biblical baloney of David vs. Goliath. It's a fairy tale.
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Old 19th September 2016, 12:11 PM   #3248
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Because it is then straight forward to calculate signal time to position
That was not the question. IF you need to adjust all the time, why pay a small fortune for an atomic clock?

Hans
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Old 19th September 2016, 01:55 PM   #3249
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
You quote mined (lied about) that forum post, Bjarne:
Do GPS satellite clocks need to be synchronized every so often with a reference clock on earth? If so, how is that done considering time dilation?
Quote:
"Then 2 SOPS contacts each GPS satellite regularly with a navigational update using dedicated or shared (AFSCN) ground antennas (GPS dedicated ground antennas are located at Kwajalein, Ascension Island, Diego Garcia, and Cape Canaveral). These updates synchronize the atomic clocks on board the satellites to within a few nanoseconds of each other, and adjust the ephemeris of each satellite's internal orbital model. "

Time dilation is already allowed for in the construction of the clocks: they're built to run slightly slow on the ground so they run at the desired rate at altitude. The updates are just to fix random drift.
That supports 19 September 2016 Bjarne: Repeated ignorance that GPS clocks are adjusted for SR and GR before launch.

The clock times (not SR or GR effects) of GPS satellites are synchronized to agree with each other because the clock times are subject to random drift.
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Old 19th September 2016, 01:57 PM   #3250
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Thumbs down Bjarne: A delusion that a "so significant" anomaly would not have already been detect

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
The expected anomaly is so significant,....
20 September 2016 Bjarne: A repeated delusion that a "so significant" anomaly would not have already been detected by the GPS system not working !
The point was your abysmal ignorance of the experiments you cited. Anyone could learn about ACES and see that the earliest we can expect the results is late 2019. Anyone can learn about the many orbits of existing GPS satellites which include polar orbits that your dark flow delusion applies to.

Last edited by Reality Check; 19th September 2016 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 19th September 2016, 03:14 PM   #3251
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, I thought that Bjarne's propensity toward Cognitive Dissonance beggared belief, but what do you call it when a poster posts links to material they purport to contain evidence supporting their view, and it turns to be evidence that refutes their view? Other than Stupid of course!
Yep, the enemy of your enemy can also be even less of a friend. If some people would put half as much energy into just working on their own notions instead of trying to dispute relativity they might get somewhere. However, there does have to be a new level of Dunning–Kruger effect for one with such disdain for curved space-time yet uses a formula derived from a curved space-time metric as his starting point.

The 7th level of Dunning–Kruger...

"Abandon all intellect ye who enter here"
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Old 20th September 2016, 09:24 AM   #3252
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
A 2 to 4 nanosecond variance for satellites in a polar orbit not detected in satellites with an equatorial orbit would have been noticed by the 1970's, possibly earlier.

But hey you keep chasing that whale. It entertains us.
Do you know the planet is not round?
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Old 20th September 2016, 09:45 AM   #3253
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Smile

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Do you know the planet is not round?
Yes Bjarne, I know the planet is not round.

I'm going from the data you've posted and the claims you've made. Your mythology is a crap theory, so of COURSE the predictions made from it sound stupid.

I can see now why you lack the courage to test your mythology against real-world data. The predictions your dark flow theory makes are absurd. The discrepancies needed by your mythology are too great to have gone unnoticed. Not even the constant clock synchronizations you claim happen would be enough to avoid satellites in a polar orbit from being lost entirely.

I find it funny that when presented with a prediction you have made yourself about your own mythology, you look at it and think the idea is worth mocking. Even you, deep down, recognize your mythology is wrong.

Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Yep, the enemy of your enemy can also be even less of a friend. If some people would put half as much energy into just working on their own notions instead of trying to dispute relativity they might get somewhere. However, there does have to be a new level of Dunning–Kruger effect for one with such disdain for curved space-time yet uses a formula derived from a curved space-time metric as his starting point.

The 7th level of Dunning–Kruger...

"Abandon all intellect ye who enter here"
Ain't it the truth. I use some of the scant data he's provided and even HE recognizes it's a crap idea.
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Old 20th September 2016, 11:57 AM   #3254
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Do you know the planet is not round?
Bjarne, how far from round do you think the planet is?

Hans
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Old 21st September 2016, 01:09 AM   #3255
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By the way, I can recomnend reading Bjarne's website. Lots of entertainment there, if you have the stomach. Note for instance the links to several non-existing language versions.

While we wait for the ISS results, we could ask Bjarne for some evidence for his many claims.

Hans
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Old 21st September 2016, 12:15 PM   #3256
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Edit below

Last edited by Bjarne; 21st September 2016 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 21st September 2016, 12:27 PM   #3257
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Best possible test / evidence for the new understanding of the cause of Perihelion Anomalies, already exist,
  • the flyby anomalies
Best possible test / evidence for the new the new understanding of SR, are;
  • primary, - that time dilation not is as expected – when moving north. Galileo5,6 and ISS, - when prove that..
  • secondary, - these test are also evidence that that dark flow is real, - which mean serveral observations supports each other
,
Best possible test / evidence proving that Relativistic Resistance against is true are
  • space probes leaving the solar system, as the Pioneer Anomalies already demonstrate,
  • the formation of solar systems
  • the collapse of galaxies, - and therefore the cause of quasars
  • hot Jupiter’s that always is dragged towards dragged towards their mother starts (when the orbit inclination is more or less aligned with DFA)
  • Sedna’s strange impossible orbit
  • And a lot more

Best possible evidence for Dark Flow Acceleration (DFA) are
  • Allais effect.
  • the speed of galaxies is also caused / driven by that acceleration,
  • In the future better test can be done by letting space probes moves straight north with large speed, these will both decelerate, and even orbits will collapse.

Right now the question is rather how blind is it really possible to be ?
Nope, again the best possible test for you is the detection of muons from cosmic rays. The difference for your 'dark flow' direction should be glaringly obvious. Again with your reversal in dilation it should even be less than the classical expectation, the muons will decay faster than if they were at rest.
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Old 21st September 2016, 12:48 PM   #3258
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
By the way, I can recomnend reading Bjarne's website. Lots of entertainment there, if you have the stomach. Note for instance the links to several non-existing language versions.

While we wait for the ISS results, we could ask Bjarne for some evidence for his many claims.

Hans

Best possible test / evidence for the new understanding of the cause of Perihelion Anomalies, already exist,
  • the flyby anomalies
Best possible test / evidence for the new the new understanding of SR, are;
  • primary, - that time dilation not is as expected – when moving north. Galileo5,6 and ISS, - will prove that..
  • secondary, - these test are also evidence that that dark flow is real, - which mean serveral observations supports each other
,
Best possible test / evidence proving that Relativistic Resistance (RR) against motion is true are
  • space probes leaving the solar system will decelerate, as the Pioneer Anomalies already demonstrate,
  • matter cannot reach "C" - SOMETHING must prevent that to happen, - that "something" is RR,

Best possible evidence for Dark Flow Acceleration (DFA) are
  • Allais effect.
  • the speed of stars in galaxies is also caused / driven by that acceleration,
  • the formation of solar systems
  • Sedna’s strange impossible orbit
  • the collapse of galaxies, - and therefore the cause of quasars
  • hot Jupiter’s that always is dragged towards dragged towards their mother starts (when the orbit inclination is more or less aligned with DFA)
  • In the future better test can be done by letting space probes moves straight north with large speed, these will both decelerate, and even orbits will collapse.

Right now the question is rather how blind is it really possible to be ?

Last edited by Bjarne; 21st September 2016 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 21st September 2016, 12:51 PM   #3259
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Nope, again the best possible test for you is the detection of muons from cosmic rays. The difference for your 'dark flow' direction should be glaringly obvious. Again with your reversal in dilation it should even be less than the classical expectation, the muons will decay faster than if they were at rest.
First tell us what is the difference between matter and muons
  • How is matter and space connected?
  • How is muons and space connected?

If you don’t know, don’t make such comparison
And if you think you is correct, - then measure muon hitting moving straight north

Last edited by Bjarne; 21st September 2016 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 21st September 2016, 01:08 PM   #3260
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
First tell us what is the difference between matter and muons
Muons are matter they have the same charge as electrons but more rest mass (they are leptons). They are unstable and decay in about 2.2 microseconds in a rest frame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muon

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ativ/muon.html


Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
  • How is matter and space connected?
  • How is muons and space connected?
By a spatial location in a coordinate system.

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
If you don’t know, don’t make such comparison
And if you think you is correct, - then measure muon hitting moving straight north
I do know as stated and once again it is incumbent on no one but you to work on your notions. Put in some time, look for research on muon detection at or near the south pole, they would be moving north. Far past time for you to actually get to work.
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Old 21st September 2016, 01:21 PM   #3261
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Muons are matter they have the same charge as electrons but more rest mass (they are leptons). They are unstable and decay in about 2.2 microseconds in a rest frame.
.
Cows and chicken are anomales, but also different
Cows cannot fly Chicken can sometimes
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Old 21st September 2016, 01:21 PM   #3262
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
First tell us what is the difference between matter and muons
  • How is matter and space connected?
  • How is muons and space connected?

If you don’t know, don’t make such comparison
And if you think you is correct, - then measure muon hitting moving straight north
Uhh, Bjarne, time you looked at reality.

Hans
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Old 21st September 2016, 01:31 PM   #3263
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Cows and chicken are anomales, but also different
Cows cannot fly Chicken can sometimes
Cows and chickens aren't "anomales", least not at my dinner table.

Is this actually suppose to be a response to why you just don't look at muon from cosmic rays detection research? Wouldn't it just be easier and cost less poor cows and chickens to admit that you apparently just didn't know if a muon was even considered matter?
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Old 21st September 2016, 01:33 PM   #3264
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Cows and chicken are anomales, but also different

Cows cannot fly Chicken can sometimes


That cow pun was such a stretch you might as well be making taffy.
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Old 21st September 2016, 01:51 PM   #3265
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Thumbs down Bjarne: A list of the usual delusions, e.g. his imaginary "Perihelion Anomalies

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Best possible test / evidence for the new understanding of the cause of Perihelion Anomalies, already exist,...
22 September 2016 Bjarne: A list of the usual delusions, e.g. his imaginary "Perihelion Anomalies" !

There are the perihelion precessions of planets (e.g. perihelion precession of Mercury) which is that the position of the perihelion moves along the orbit for each orbit. This is not a delusion that the perihelion is smaller. This is written down as a as a rate of change of an angle such as arcsec/Julian century.

Right now the question is long is it possible to retain delusions when the real world has been pointed out many times?
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Old 21st September 2016, 05:01 PM   #3266
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
So here is an exercise that should be simple - calculate how often the measurement of the orbit and synchronization would have to occur to maintain GPS accuracies.
Bjarne: You never answered this question. Can you?
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Old 21st September 2016, 11:31 PM   #3267
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Bjarne: You never answered this question. Can you?
Software can do that automatically

A lot can confused those that believe in holy science

For example the planet is not round, - and full of crust anomalies.
Gravity from earth is really different by equator and by the poles.

Now think about what is done to take all that into account for satellites operators.
And how sure can operators be that what they though was satellite orbit disturbances caused by different gravity influence, - instead (in some cases) is “disturbances” cause by very different reasons, - we very soon will learn much more about..

Also ask how gravity anomalies are measured
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Old 22nd September 2016, 09:03 AM   #3268
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Cows and chicken are anomales, but also different
Cows cannot fly Chicken can sometimes
Hi,
that is bizarre to say the least, muons entering the atmosphere and in other places traveling at relativistic speed do not decay as quickly because of time dilation. It shows no preference for your dark flow orientation
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Old 22nd September 2016, 09:17 AM   #3269
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Software can do that automatically

A lot can confused those that believe in holy science

For example the planet is not round, - and full of crust anomalies.
Gravity from earth is really different by equator and by the poles.

Now think about what is done to take all that into account for satellites operators.
And how sure can operators be that what they though was satellite orbit disturbances caused by different gravity influence, - instead (in some cases) is “disturbances” cause by very different reasons, - we very soon will learn much more about..

Also ask how gravity anomalies are measured
If any of your claims were true, the proof would be in the logs of corrections made to satellites in the GPS system, regardless of those corrections were automated or not.

Is this a fact you simply do not understand or one you choose to ignore?

Your own predictions require an otherwise unexpected 2 to 4 nanosecond variance for satellites in a North / South polar orbit. Find proof of that in the GPS satellite correction logs and you have proof of your theory, or at least an aspect of it.

Why are you so scared of examining the GPS satellite correction data?

Does this web comic reflect how you perceive scientists?
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Old 22nd September 2016, 09:47 AM   #3270
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So far, this truck is doing a great impression of Bjarne's mythology:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 22nd September 2016, 10:35 AM   #3271
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Software can do that automatically
No, it can't. Software only does what you program it to.

Quote:
For example the planet is not round, - and full of crust anomalies.
Gravity from earth is really different by equator and by the poles.
No. Gravity on the surface is different.

Quote:
Now think about what is done to take all that into account for satellites operators.
Yes, it's hard work.

Quote:
And how sure can operators be that what they though was satellite orbit disturbances caused by different gravity influence, - instead (in some cases) is “disturbances” cause by very different reasons, - we very soon will learn much more about..
No, that can be calculated.

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Also ask how gravity anomalies are measured
Again, by hard scientific work. You should try it sometime.

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Old 22nd September 2016, 10:50 AM   #3272
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Cows and chickens aren't "anomales", least not at my dinner table.

Is this actually suppose to be a response to why you just don't look at muon from cosmic rays detection research? Wouldn't it just be easier and cost less poor cows and chickens to admit that you apparently just didn't know if a muon was even considered matter?
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Old 22nd September 2016, 11:07 AM   #3273
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Cows and chicken are anomales, but also different
Cows cannot fly Chicken can sometimes
Anomales? Is that something you encounter on a holiday in Bangkok?

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Old 22nd September 2016, 11:10 AM   #3274
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Best possible test / evidence for the new understanding of the cause of Perihelion Anomalies, already exist,
  • the flyby anomalies
Best possible test / evidence for the new the new understanding of SR, are;
  • primary, - that time dilation not is as expected – when moving north. Galileo5,6 and ISS, - will prove that..
  • secondary, - these test are also evidence that that dark flow is real, - which mean serveral observations supports each other
,
Best possible test / evidence proving that Relativistic Resistance (RR) against motion is true are
  • space probes leaving the solar system will decelerate, as the Pioneer Anomalies already demonstrate,
  • matter cannot reach "C" - SOMETHING must prevent that to happen, - that "something" is RR,

Best possible evidence for Dark Flow Acceleration (DFA) are
  • Allais effect.
  • the speed of stars in galaxies is also caused / driven by that acceleration,
  • the formation of solar systems
  • Sedna’s strange impossible orbit
  • the collapse of galaxies, - and therefore the cause of quasars
  • hot Jupiter’s that always is dragged towards dragged towards their mother starts (when the orbit inclination is more or less aligned with DFA)
  • In the future better test can be done by letting space probes moves straight north with large speed, these will both decelerate, and even orbits will collapse.

Right now the question is rather how blind is it really possible to be ?
No.

Hans
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Old 22nd September 2016, 12:36 PM   #3275
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Software can do that automatically

A lot can confused those that believe in holy science

For example the planet is not round, - and full of crust anomalies.
Gravity from earth is really different by equator and by the poles.

Now think about what is done to take all that into account for satellites operators.
And how sure can operators be that what they though was satellite orbit disturbances caused by different gravity influence, - instead (in some cases) is “disturbances” cause by very different reasons, - we very soon will learn much more about..

Also ask how gravity anomalies are measured
Speaking of "holy science", Bjarne just transferred the capability to determine and correct anomalies from scientists to the divine computer.
"Oh mighty Cpu, without whom we are nothing...."
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Old 22nd September 2016, 12:50 PM   #3276
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Speaking of "holy science", Bjarne just transferred the capability to determine and correct anomalies from scientists to the divine computer.
"Oh mighty Cpu, without whom we are nothing...."
And he assumes the scientists never check the logs, despite having been given proof to the contrary.
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Old 22nd September 2016, 04:33 PM   #3277
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Software can do that automatically

A lot can confused those that believe in holy science

For example the planet is not round, - and full of crust anomalies.
Gravity from earth is really different by equator and by the poles.

Now think about what is done to take all that into account for satellites operators.
And how sure can operators be that what they though was satellite orbit disturbances caused by different gravity influence, - instead (in some cases) is “disturbances” cause by very different reasons, - we very soon will learn much more about..

Also ask how gravity anomalies are measured
So you still can't answer the question. Got it.
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Old 24th September 2016, 07:19 AM   #3278
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OK, I have some time, and I did ask Bjarne for this so here goes.

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Best possible test / evidence for the new understanding of the cause of Perihelion Anomalies, already exist,
  • the flyby anomalies
How is that? When we talk about GPS satellites you claim it is virtually impossible to pre-calculate the exact orbit, but when a probe fly-by differs from the calculation somewhere on the sixth decimal, it is suddenly proof of your theory? Please explain exactly how.

Quote:
Best possible test / evidence for the new the new understanding of SR, are;
  • primary, - that time dilation not is as expected – when moving north. Galileo5,6 and ISS, - will prove that..
  • secondary, - these test are also evidence that that dark flow is real, - which mean serveral observations supports each other
,
That's not evidence, it is wishful thinking. So far such results only exist on your imagination, remember?

Quote:
Best possible test / evidence proving that Relativistic Resistance (RR) against motion is true are
  • space probes leaving the solar system will decelerate, as the Pioneer Anomalies already demonstrate,
  • matter cannot reach "C" - SOMETHING must prevent that to happen, - that "something" is RR,
1) So your discovery is based on a 10th decimal anomaly on a probe on its way through largely uncharted space?

2) Are you serious?? Did you forget e=mc2? That is the explanation of that, supported by observation.

Quote:
Best possible evidence for Dark Flow Acceleration (DFA) are
  • Allais effect.
Unconfirmed.

Quote:
  • the speed of stars in galaxies is also caused / driven by that acceleration,
  • the formation of solar systems
  • Sedna’s strange impossible orbit
  • the collapse of galaxies, - and therefore the cause of quasars
  • hot Jupiter’s that always is dragged towards dragged towards their mother starts (when the orbit inclination is more or less aligned with DFA)
  • In the future better test can be done by letting space probes moves straight north with large speed, these will both decelerate, and even orbits will collapse.
Pure speculation. I asked for evidence.

Quote:
Right now the question is rather how blind is it really possible to be ?
Well, for you there seems to be no limit.

Hans
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Old 24th September 2016, 08:38 AM   #3279
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Bjarne, what is your objection to relativity, actually?
In Newtonian Mechanics, using the Galilean Transform, the speed of light is considered infinite, and no time dilation occurs. Different
observers will always agree on their clocks.
In Special Relativity the speed of light is considered finite, and the same for all observers. This implies that time and space are mixed
in such a way that this postulate always holds; That of the speed of light being always the same.
So different observers will agree on the speed of light always, but not on their clocks (or odometers).
But this space is still flat. In a Minkowski space, by defining distance properly, you can make everybody happy again.
It is in General Relativity where actual curved spacetime occurs. The Newtonian equivalent for this are the fictitious forces.
You could do the whole thing in a Newtonian way, using Newton's Law of Gravitation.
The differences are mostly unnoticeable except for some corner cases that happen to be exceptionally important to social animals.
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Old 24th September 2016, 09:47 AM   #3280
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This promises to be good.

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