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Tags Allais Effect , Dark Flow , relativity , Theory of Relativity

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Old 10th September 2016, 01:16 PM   #3081
fuelair
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
You'd think he'd be excited about a ready data repository that he could use to support, possibly prove, the hypothesis he's been promoting for close to a decade.

Maybe he's not responding because he's busy getting the raw data. Maybe.
When you are looking for a Moby Dick, you pay no attention to real whales!!!!!
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Old 10th September 2016, 01:51 PM   #3082
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
When you are looking for a Moby Dick, you pay no attention to real whales!!!!!
Space-time fuelair, so that'd be a Möbius Dick.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B...ick_(Futurama)
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Old 10th September 2016, 08:58 PM   #3083
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Space-time fuelair, so that'd be a Möbius Dick.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B...ick_(Futurama)
Well, I do not have one of those, but I do at least have a Klein Bottle!!!
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:10 PM   #3084
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
GPS is not a commercial system, it is a military system. It is also the worldwide navigation system of choice. It is a multi-billion dollar enterprise, and is expected to hold the lead in decades to come.

Of course they are monitoring anomalies. The aerospace business is more focused on documentation than even the medical industry (and that says a LOT, I can tell you from personal experience.). And of course they make all relevant analysis of that data. After all, it's just a question of feeding the data you already collected into a computer program.

Your idea, Bjarne, would cause systematic pertuberations, which are very easy to detect using statistical analysis.

Face it, man: They are NOT there.

Hans
1.
Monday Morning red Ivan and Sergey, will launch a new polar satellite into the GPS system

2.
Wednesday Morning red Ivan and Sergey are done.
Now John receive the on board satellite time dilation data, - also by satellite perigee and apogee etc..
On every path of the orbit John now know excactly how much the clock on board deviate from Earth based atomic clocks

3.
Thursday morning John is handling over his time dilation measurements deviation to Yuky and Vera.
They will now write software especially designed to that particle new satellite.

4.
Friday Morning the software is ready, and Hubert is updated the software on the Satellite. 17 minutes after the upload started the satellite clock software is synchronized and appears to tick exactly like a clock on earth.
The GPS work perfect, and everybody on planet earth is happy and proud.
Also NASA red Ivan, and all the others

5.
Friday Albert visit the navigation center he want to calculate whether the time dilation measurement John did fits with the text book, - BUT everybody now ask WHY it’s (GPS and the new satellites) all working perfect, why calculate anything ?

Ahhh Albert say, - well it is maybe also better to use our time on figure out why the theory of relativity in inconstant with quantum physic, the problems with black holes etc. etc.. etc.. So sorry have a nice day..

Even though if Albert was calculating the orbit according to the text book, he would only find, that the orbit had a relative large elliptic eccentricity, but well he would think I works so that may be OK. Why use more fuel on that...

So soon Albert is comparing measured orbit data with calculated data he would find that measured data shows smaller elliptic eccentricity compared to the calculated data, first now he would be suspicious that something is wrong with that single satellite..

But even Albert know that calculated data shows that the orbit have a relative large elliptical eccentricity, IT DOES NOT EFFECT THE SATELLITE, - because ONLY measured data was used to synchronize the clocks is crucial, - the calculated data is not a problem for GPS, - but only for the theory of relativity.

Hmm Albert would think, we never saw such large anomaly before, it must be something on board that have a error. - So we forget it, it works well so that is the main thing.

Last edited by Bjarne; 10th September 2016 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:35 PM   #3085
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
None of that applies to GPS navigation.
So which satellite program is that report about then , if not GPS ?


http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...RAND_RR560.pdf

Last edited by Bjarne; 10th September 2016 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:37 PM   #3086
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Bjarne, no matter how many times you repeat your lie that GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth, that does not make it true.
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Old 10th September 2016, 11:41 PM   #3087
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Bjarne, no matter how many times you repeat your lie that GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth, that does not make it true.
Off course GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth, - and also even brought back from perturbation influence etc.
So what ?

John, Vera, Yuky and the rest of the staff will just repeat their work again and again.

Albert is still busy to figure out what went wrong with the inconsistency between relativity and quantum physic and other gigantic problems there are with that theory

Last edited by Bjarne; 11th September 2016 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:20 AM   #3088
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
1.
Monday Morning red Ivan and Sergey, will launch a new polar satellite into the GPS system

2.
Wednesday Morning red Ivan and Sergey are done.
Now John receive the on board satellite time dilation data, - also by satellite perigee and apogee etc..
On every path of the orbit John now know excactly how much the clock on board deviate from Earth based atomic clocks

3.
Thursday morning John is handling over his time dilation measurements deviation to Yuky and Vera.
They will now write software especially designed to that particle new satellite.

4.
Friday Morning the software is ready, and Hubert is updated the software on the Satellite. 17 minutes after the upload started the satellite clock software is synchronized and appears to tick exactly like a clock on earth.
The GPS work perfect, and everybody on planet earth is happy and proud.
Also NASA red Ivan, and all the others

5.
Friday Albert visit the navigation center he want to calculate whether the time dilation measurement John did fits with the text book, - BUT everybody now ask WHY it’s (GPS and the new satellites) all working perfect, why calculate anything ?

Ahhh Albert say, - well it is maybe also better to use our time on figure out why the theory of relativity in inconstant with quantum physic, the problems with black holes etc. etc.. etc.. So sorry have a nice day..

Even though if Albert was calculating the orbit according to the text book, he would only find, that the orbit had a relative large elliptic eccentricity, but well he would think I works so that may be OK. Why use more fuel on that...

So soon Albert is comparing measured orbit data with calculated data he would find that measured data shows smaller elliptic eccentricity compared to the calculated data, first now he would be suspicious that something is wrong with that single satellite..

But even Albert know that calculated data shows that the orbit have a relative large elliptical eccentricity, IT DOES NOT EFFECT THE SATELLITE, - because ONLY measured data was used to synchronize the clocks is crucial, - the calculated data is not a problem for GPS, - but only for the theory of relativity.

Hmm Albert would think, we never saw such large anomaly before, it must be something on board that have a error. - So we forget it, it works well so that is the main thing.
Ah, Bjarne, there is the thing for you! Fiction writing. You seem to have some talent there. All you need now is a plausible plot.

Hans
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:24 AM   #3089
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Ah, Bjarne, there is the thing for you! Fiction writing.

Hans
Do you have a more realistic plot?

No off course not, then you would have write it
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:59 AM   #3090
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You definitely should try do something with that. Unfortunately, Albert seems to have given up, but now I want to know what happened next. You could carry on with the tale, perhaps go like:


As it turned out, John is a astrophysicist and a rocket scientist and he isn't happy at all with Albert giving up. Now, it turns out that Albert is not entirely to blame, with a deadly disease wreaking havoc in his body.
John knows this, so he takes it upon himself to work through all the calculations. And what John discovers then .....


Work on something plausible
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Old 11th September 2016, 02:51 AM   #3091
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https://xkcd.com/1731/

There is always an apt one.
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Old 11th September 2016, 03:37 AM   #3092
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If we assume the ISS would follow an orbit aligned to the ecliptic south / north (dark flow) axis, deviation from the time dilation predicted by special relativity (during one ISS orbit) can be calculated as follows;

Time dilation does not only happen on a vertical straight south / south axis, but also when moving in any horizontal direction.
This mean when the ISS is moving from ‘X’ to ‘E’, (see fig11) the expected time dilation due to SR influence will total only be 50% of the expected amount.
At ‘E’ time gain and loss of time will equalize.
When moving from ‘E’ and to ‘Z’ the clock on board ISS will gradually begin to thick faster, starting right after leaving ‘E’ and culminating at ‘Z’.
At ‘Z’ the SR-time-dilation “anomaly” will reach the culmination points that demonstrate the biggest discrepancy between expected time dilation according to the prevailing and modified theory of relativity.

At 'Z' the dark flow speed is reduced by 7660 m/s
1/sqrt(1-7660^2/299792458^2)- 1, = time will tick 3.26e-10s. faster according to modified theory of relativity, and not 3.26e-10 slower according to the prevailing theory.

The ISS orbital period = 5561 seconds. A quarter of that period (1390 seconds) .
During that period the effective average speed opposite dark flow is about 3830ms-1 /2 = 1900 ms-1
The average time dilation factor is therefore, - 1/sqrt(1-3830^2/299792458^2)- 1 = 8.16e-11
The total loss of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth, - 1390s * 8.16e-11= 1.13e-7s.
The gain of time for the other quarter of the orbit relative to a clock on Earth, - 1390s * 8.16e-11= 1.13e-7s.

Which mean half of such orbit will have no SR time dilation effect.

But the inclination of the ISS is not aligned with the dark flow axis; it is however inclined relative to that axis somewhere between 20° to 25°, therefore we shall only expect an approximately time loss about 3.0e-8s

Off course the same principle applies for all kinds of orbits, and also the Galileo 5 & 6 satellites now dedicated for scientific tests.

Galileo 5 & 6 Kinematic Time Dilation (orbits aligned with the dark flow inclination)
If we assume that the Galileo 5 & 6 satellites will follow orbits aligned to the ecliptic south / north (dark flow) axis; - then the deviation from the time dilation during one Galileo (5 & 6) satellite orbit can be calculated as follows:

The orbital period = 46800 seconds.
A quarter of that period (11700 seconds) is where the Galileo will gain time due to gradually slower absolute dark flow speed. Speed is 3800 ms-1 .

The effective average speed is half of the orbit speed, - 3800 m/s /2 = 1900 ms-1
The average time dilation factor is therefor, - 1/sqrt(1-1900^2/299792458^2)- 1 = 2.0e-11
The total unexpected loss of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth 11700 * 2.0e-11= 2.34e-7s
The gained time for the other quarter of the orbit relative to a clock on Earth, - 11700 * 2.0e-11= 2.34e-7s.
Which mean half of such orbit will see no SR time dilation effect.

Galileo 5 & 6 Kinematic Time Dilation (orbit 45° inclination relative to the dark flow axis)
If we assume that the Galileo 5 & 6 satellites will follow the orbits of 45° inclined relative to the ecliptic south / north axis, (relative to the dark flow axis) the time dilation during one Galileo 5 & 6 satellite orbit can be calculated as follows:

LOSS OF TIME (MODIFIED THEORY OF RELATIVITY)
Half of the satellite orbit, - the speed opposite Dark flow, = 33,3% of the orbit speed. 3800 ms-1 /3 = 267 m/s
The time dilation factor = 1/sqrt(1-1267^2/299792458^2) - 1 = 8.9e-12
The total unexpected loss of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth = 23400s. * 8.9e-12 = 2.08e-7s

GAINED TIME (MODIFIED THEORY OF RELATIVITY)
Half of the satellite orbit, - absolute motion speed , = (66,6% of the orbit speed) 3800 ms-1 /3*2 = 2534 m/s
The time dilation factor = 1/sqrt(1-2534^2/299792458^2)- 1 = 3.57e-11
The total gain of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth = 23400s. * 3.57e-11 = 8.35e-7s

GAINED TIME (ACCORDING TO PREVAILING THEORY OG RELATIVITY)
Half of the satellite orbit, - absolute motion speed , = (100% of the orbit speed) 3800 ms-1 = 3800 m/s
The time dilation factor = 1/sqrt(1-3800^2/299792458^2)- 1 = 8.03e-11
The total gain of time per orbit relative to a clock on Earth = 23400s. * 8.03e-11= 1,87e-6s
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Old 11th September 2016, 04:08 AM   #3093
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And why do your calculations not correct for the fact that both the earth and the sun change position relative to your 'dark flow' constantly?

Or do you assume geocentrism?
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Old 11th September 2016, 04:37 AM   #3094
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Off course GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth, - and also even brought back from perturbation influence etc.
So what ?

John, Vera, Yuky and the rest of the staff will just repeat their work again and again.

Albert is still busy to figure out what went wrong with the inconsistency between relativity and quantum physic and other gigantic problems there are with that theory


Fascinating. You've been given access to the data to prove your hypothesis, and instead of crunching the data and finding the proof, you choose instead to write fan-fiction to create a straw man you can argue against instead.

What stories will you write to justify yourself when the ISS doesn't prove your hypothesis?

Will you make up another idiotic story about someone not having the time to do their job?

Have you considered writing Einstein RPF (Real Person Fiction) on https://archiveofourown.org/ instead of arguing impotency against better educated and better informed minds here? At least on the fan-fiction site your fiction would be evaluated by some upon its merits as a story instead of upon it being scientifically illiterate.
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Old 11th September 2016, 04:54 AM   #3095
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
I just have to wait for the ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 test i finish, its much easier


It's not a matter of it being simpler. It's a matter of drawing out your act. You're predicting a time dilation difference several times that needed to render the effected GPS satellites unfit for accurate navigation. Instead of using the GPS data to make predictions about what the ISS and Galileo test results should be, you write fan-fiction explaining why this discovery, which, if true, would make the career of anyone who published a paper on it, is being ignored by the scientists and engineers who need to work with it daily.

I'm going to make a prediction. A few years from now, when you've run out of "they're still crunching the numbers" excuses, you're going to write another hypothetical short story about how the ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 teams somehow managed to miss this massive, world altering discrepancy because they were busy with mundane tasks or tangential analysis. You will ONLY do this after several posts calling out the absurdity of the claim you'll be making that they're deliberately hiding the "truth" to protect Einstein's theories. You'll never request the raw data yourself. Even if someone gives you a link to the raw data so you can download it, you'll never do your own analysis. You'll just latch onto another scheduled test as the one that will "finally" vindicate you.
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Old 11th September 2016, 06:48 AM   #3096
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
So which satellite program is that report about then , if not GPS ?


http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...RAND_RR560.pdf
Again, you're conflating spacecraft equipment failures with an ongoing orbit deviations.
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Old 11th September 2016, 07:27 AM   #3097
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
1.
Monday Morning red Ivan and Sergey, will launch a new polar satellite into the GPS system

2.
Wednesday Morning red Ivan and Sergey are done.
Now John receive the on board satellite time dilation data, - also by satellite perigee and apogee etc..
On every path of the orbit John now know excactly how much the clock on board deviate from Earth based atomic clocks

3.
Thursday morning John is handling over his time dilation measurements deviation to Yuky and Vera.
They will now write software especially designed to that particle new satellite.

4.
Friday Morning the software is ready, and Hubert is updated the software on the Satellite. 17 minutes after the upload started the satellite clock software is synchronized and appears to tick exactly like a clock on earth.
The GPS work perfect, and everybody on planet earth is happy and proud.
Also NASA red Ivan, and all the others

5.
Friday Albert visit the navigation center he want to calculate whether the time dilation measurement John did fits with the text book, - BUT everybody now ask WHY it’s (GPS and the new satellites) all working perfect, why calculate anything ?

Ahhh Albert say, - well it is maybe also better to use our time on figure out why the theory of relativity in inconstant with quantum physic, the problems with black holes etc. etc.. etc.. So sorry have a nice day..

Even though if Albert was calculating the orbit according to the text book, he would only find, that the orbit had a relative large elliptic eccentricity, but well he would think I works so that may be OK. Why use more fuel on that...

So soon Albert is comparing measured orbit data with calculated data he would find that measured data shows smaller elliptic eccentricity compared to the calculated data, first now he would be suspicious that something is wrong with that single satellite..

But even Albert know that calculated data shows that the orbit have a relative large elliptical eccentricity, IT DOES NOT EFFECT THE SATELLITE, - because ONLY measured data was used to synchronize the clocks is crucial, - the calculated data is not a problem for GPS, - but only for the theory of relativity.

Hmm Albert would think, we never saw such large anomaly before, it must be something on board that have a error. - So we forget it, it works well so that is the main thing.
Again, this is fractally wrong.

First, an ad-hoc correction couldn't work the way you've described because a GPS orbit precesses, so its angle from the ecliptic (and thus dark-flow impact) is slowly but constantly changing.

Second, even if your ad-hoc correction would work, that's not how such things are done. No low-level software engineer is given some anomalous data and told to make it all work out. Instead, if there were such an issue, there would be papers written, various corrections and explanations would be proposed, there would be trade studies, involvement of the various user groups to understand how they'd be impacted, eventually a chosen approach with allocated budget & schedule, then implementation, testing, and finally (finally!) a roll-out of the updated algorithm. It would take years, hundreds of people would be directly involved, thousands would be tangentially involved, and there'd be a huge paper & internet trail.

Third, it wouldn't be easy to do that sort of ad-hoc correction. The data from the GPS monitor stations is fed into a Kalman filter that looks for a best fit to a particular orbit model (basically a Keplerian with a few extra terms) so to do the ad-hoc correction, our software engineer would have to invent a new orbit model and hook it into the Kalman filter.

Fourth - and if you consider none of the other reasons, consider this - The ephemeris data that each GPS spacecraft sends has a very compact, specific structure* based on a traditional orbit model. Even if our hapless software engineer found a quick hack to estimate a more accurate orbit, there's no way to get that data to the users. They're stuck with the historical orbit description, and there's no way to send them an ad-hoc correction term.

*The ephemeris terms are detailed on pages 26 and 27 of that document
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Old 11th September 2016, 09:55 AM   #3098
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Fascinating. You've been given access to the data to prove your hypothesis,
So where was the measured time dilation for ISS and Galileo ?
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Old 11th September 2016, 11:23 AM   #3099
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Again, you're conflating spacecraft equipment failures with an ongoing orbit deviations.
The point is

1.
So soon an anomaly is discovered the cause of it can also be equipment failures.

2.
The is problematic because as i read it, staff is not allowed to speak completely open about it.

3.
I cannot find anything thing that say that a GPS staff not is included that kind of politic.
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Old 11th September 2016, 11:32 AM   #3100
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Again, this is fractally wrong.

First, an ad-hoc correction couldn't work the way you've described because a GPS orbit precesses, so its angle from the ecliptic (and thus dark-flow impact) is slowly but constantly changing.

Second, even if your ad-hoc correction would work, that's not how such things are done. No low-level software engineer is given some anomalous data and told to make it all work out. Instead, if there were such an issue, there would be papers written, various corrections and explanations would be proposed, there would be trade studies, involvement of the various user groups to understand how they'd be impacted, eventually a chosen approach with allocated budget & schedule, then implementation, testing, and finally (finally!) a roll-out of the updated algorithm. It would take years, hundreds of people would be directly involved, thousands would be tangentially involved, and there'd be a huge paper & internet trail.

Third, it wouldn't be easy to do that sort of ad-hoc correction. The data from the GPS monitor stations is fed into a Kalman filter that looks for a best fit to a particular orbit model (basically a Keplerian with a few extra terms) so to do the ad-hoc correction, our software engineer would have to invent a new orbit model and hook it into the Kalman filter.

Fourth - and if you consider none of the other reasons, consider this - The ephemeris data that each GPS spacecraft sends has a very compact, specific structure* based on a traditional orbit model. Even if our hapless software engineer found a quick hack to estimate a more accurate orbit, there's no way to get that data to the users. They're stuck with the historical orbit description, and there's no way to send them an ad-hoc correction term.

*The ephemeris terms are detailed on pages 26 and 27 of that document
One the one hand there are as you wrote several reason to believe that a serious anomaly should not be possible to hide.

On the other hand there is also reason to believe that a dilation anomaly is possible.........

1.
Read my post above.

2.
The main task of the GPS staff is to keep the system working, - not primary to speculate what the cause of different kind of anomalies really is.

3.
So the main task is to keep clocks synchronized..

4.
There are many significant influences on satellites, here is a article I read today
NASA space junk experts have refined the forecast for the anticipated death plunge of a giant satellite, with the U.S. space agency now predicting the 6 1/2-ton climate probe will plummet to Earth around Sept. 23, a day earlier than previously reported.
"Re-entry is expected Sept. 23, plus or minus a day. The re-entry of UARS is advancing because of a sharp increase in solar activity since the beginning of this week," NASA officials wrote in a status update today (Sept. 16). The projection is a day earlier than a previous forecast released by NASA yesterday.
Notice plus minus one day, - just because of solar storm.
The anomaly I speak about compared to that +/- one day, - is peanuts.
Source ... http://www.space.com/12982-dead-nasa...h-sept-24.html

5.
I think I have a better world view to offer, - several huge mysteries are easy solved in the new paradigm, there are only one single hard nut left, - there must be a time dilation anomalies out there, - known, “secret” or what so ever doesn’t matter, - It’s there, - scientific ISS test will reveal it's there.

Last edited by Bjarne; 11th September 2016 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 11th September 2016, 11:51 AM   #3101
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
The point is

1.
So soon an anomaly is discovered the cause of it can also be equipment failures.
Depending on the anomaly, yes. The vast majority of the anomalies that I know of are either hardware or software failures.

Quote:
2.
The is problematic because as i read it, staff is not allowed to speak completely open about it.
Yes. For example, satellite manufacturers aren't enthusiastic about telling the world about all the problems their spacecraft have encountered. Commercial satellite operators don't want to provide data to their competitors. Military operators don't want to let potential enemies know about weaknesses in their systems.

And this is problematic because new spacecraft are built without learning from the problems of previous spacecraft, so the same problem may occur over and over even after it's been resolved.

Not really relevant to GPS nav, though.

Quote:
3.
I cannot find anything thing that say that a GPS staff not is included that kind of politic.
Oh, as far as I know, GPS isn't any more open than anyone else about the root causes of the occasional hardware failures. But they don't have any way to cover up any orbit anomalies even if they wanted to. Every spacecraft continuously broadcasts its raw clock output without any corrections or adjustments, so there's simply no way to hide an orbit anomaly.
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Old 11th September 2016, 12:06 PM   #3102
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
One the one hand there are as you wrote several reason to believe that a serious anomaly should not be possible to hide.

On the other hand there is also reason to believe that a dilation anomaly is possible.........
I'm arguing that whether or not it's "possible," we're not seeing it on GPS, and it should be visible on GPS.

Quote:
1.
Read my post above.
Which one?

Quote:
2.
The main task of the GPS staff is to keep the system working, - not primary to speculate what the cause of different kind of anomalies really is.
Regardless of their "main task," they're not seeing your anomalies. And, yet again, there are some very bright people who've devoted their careers to understanding small GPS orbit deviations, so their 'main task' is exactly "to speculate what the cause of different kind of anomalies really is." You should see the level of detail they've done for modeling the effect of solar wind on GPS spacecraft, for example.

Quote:
3.
So the main task is to keep clocks synchronized..
For some people, and a portion of the control segment software, yes. Since their job is centered on clock synch, you'd think they'd notice a repeatable large drift in every clock.

Quote:
4.
There are many significant influences on satellites, here is a article I read today
NASA space junk experts have refined the forecast for the anticipated death plunge of a giant satellite, with the U.S. space agency now predicting the 6 1/2-ton climate probe will plummet to Earth around Sept. 23, a day earlier than previously reported.
"Re-entry is expected Sept. 23, plus or minus a day. The re-entry of UARS is advancing because of a sharp increase in solar activity since the beginning of this week," NASA officials wrote in a status update today (Sept. 16). The projection is a day earlier than a previous forecast released by NASA yesterday.
Notice plus minus one day, - just because of solar storm.
The anomaly I speak about compared to that +/- one day, - is peanuts.
Source ... http://www.space.com/12982-dead-nasa...h-sept-24.html
Yeahh . . . that's a whole different problem. At very low orbits, atmospheric drag is a big deal, and it varies because of a) spacecraft orientation, and b) fluctuations in the atmosphere due to space weather effects. a) is pretty obvious (and can easily cause the drag to vary by a factor of 10 or more), but b) isn't something we really see on the ground, but 75 miles up, the 'atmosphere' density can vary greatly from day to day, so the drag can vary greatly from day to day. That makes it very difficult to predict when a spacecraft in a circular orbit will actually reenter. The density variation really isn't an issue at higher orbits.

Quote:
5.
I think I have a better world view to offer, - several huge mysteries are easy solved in the new paradigm, there are only one single hard nut left, - there must be a time dilation anomalies out there, - known, “secret” or what so ever doesn’t matter, - It’s there, - scientific ISS test will reveal it's there.
If it's wrong, it's not better. If the data doesn't support it, it's wrong.
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Old 11th September 2016, 12:33 PM   #3103
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
One the one hand there are as you wrote several reason to believe that a serious anomaly should not be possible to hide.

*snip*
You are welcome to believe that a multi-billion dollar military space project is run like a grocery shop, but I can't see why anyone else should care.

Quote:
5.
I think I have a better world view to offer, - several huge mysteries are easy solved in the new paradigm, there are only one single hard nut left, - there must be a time dilation anomalies out there, - known, “secret” or what so ever doesn’t matter, - It’s there, - scientific ISS test will reveal it's there.
You are welcome to think that, too. If you want to discuss it, I suggest you take one mystery at the time, and explain how your idea solves it. - In detail, including math, evidence, etc.

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Old 11th September 2016, 02:31 PM   #3104
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Thumbs down Bjarne: The stupidity that his delusions only apply to new polar GPS satellites

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Monday Morning red Ivan and Sergey, will launch a new polar satellite into the GPS system
12 September 2016 Bjarne: The stupidity that his delusions only apply to new polar GPS satellites!
Bjarne's delusions mean that existing polar GPS satellites cannot work.
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Old 11th September 2016, 02:39 PM   #3105
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Exclamation Bjarne: A PDF about satellite anomalies being noticed and actioned

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Many satellites encounter anomalous events detrimental to mission...
Satellite Anomalies - Benefits of a Centralized Anomaly Database and Methods for Securely Sharing Information Among Satellite Operators (PDF)
12 September 2016 Bjarne: A PDF about satellite anomalies being noticed and actioned which is nothing to do with his "Have you hear about the many time dilation synchronization every day"
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Old 11th September 2016, 02:46 PM   #3106
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Thumbs down Bjarne: Reveals ignorance about a PDF that he linked t

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
So which satellite program is that report about then , if not GPS ?
12 September 2016 Bjarne: Reveals ignorance about a PDF that he linked to !

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...RAND_RR560.pdf[/quote] is by the RAND Corporation and is about every satellite that exists.
Quote:
Satellites in Earth orbit represent a critical component of society’s modern infrastructure. Failure of a satellite, or even of a particular subsystem, can significantly affect capabilities on which the civil, defense, and commercial sectors have come to rely. Most satellite owners monitor the health of their systems and keep track of any unusual problems their spacecraft experience. These “satellite anomalies” are defined, for the purposes of this study, as any mission-degrading events affecting on-orbit operational spacecraft. Examples include onboard computer errors or failures, malfunctioning attitude control systems, loss of radio contact, the degradation of solar panel efficiency, and many other mechanical or electronic symptoms. Most satellites experience anomalies of varying severity throughout their lifetimes. The root causes of these anomalies may include manufacturing and design flaws in satellite hardware and software, extreme space weather events that affect the intensity of electromagnetic radiation and density of charged particles in the satellite’s environment, impacts with micrometeoroids or space debris, operator error, regular wear and tear from exposure to the plasma environment of space, or interference by human technological activities, either intentional or unintentional.
There are 2 occurrences of the word GPS as examples of medium Earth orbit (MEO) satellites.
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Old 11th September 2016, 02:58 PM   #3107
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Thumbs down Bjarne: The clocks in GPS satellites are not continuously re-synchronized from Earth

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Off course GPS clocks are continuously re-synchronized from earth,...
12 September 2016 Bjarne: The clocks in Global Positioning System satellites are not continuously re-synchronized from Earth.
The GPS clocks are set before launch to tick a little slower to account for SR and GR effects. GPS: Special and General Relativity
Quote:
To compensate for the discrepancy, the frequency standard on board each satellite is given a rate offset prior to launch, making it run slightly slower than the desired frequency on Earth; specifically, at 10.22999999543 MHz instead of 10.23 MHz.[16] Since the atomic clocks on board the GPS satellites are precisely tuned, it makes the system a practical engineering application of the scientific theory of relativity in a real-world environment.[17] Placing atomic clocks on artificial satellites to test Einstein's general theory was proposed by Friedwardt Winterberg in 1955.[18]
There is one case where a GPS clock was "re-synchronized". One of the original GPS satellites (maybe in a polar orbit !) was launched with no rate offset on the clock and the SR/GR effects were measured and agreed with SR and GR. Then this one clock was adjusted once to compensate for the SR/GR effects.
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Old 11th September 2016, 03:01 PM   #3108
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Thumbs down Bjarne: Spamming a thread with a fantasy does not make it less deluded

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
If we assume the ISS ....
12 September 2016 Bjarne: Spamming a thread with a fantasy does not make it less deluded - a possible dark flow millions or billions of light years away will have no effects here.

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Old 11th September 2016, 03:14 PM   #3109
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Exclamation Bjarne: GPS satellites are in stable orbits well above the Earth's atmosphere

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
So the main task is to keep clocks synchronized.
No: 12 September 2016 Bjarne: The clocks in Global Positioning System satellites are not continuously re-synchronized from Earth.

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
There are many significant influences on satellites, here is a article I read today
The GPS operators know about these many significant influences on satellites ! But:
12 September 2016 Bjarne: GPS satellites are in stable orbits well above the Earth's atmosphere.
GPS satellites are not defunct, decommissioned satellites in the process of being deorbited to fall to the Earth. GPS satellites are not in Low Earth Orbit where atmospheric drag is an issue.

A view that is abysmally ignorant about the real world is nothing to boast about, Bjarne.
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Old 11th September 2016, 03:44 PM   #3110
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
So where was the measured time dilation for ISS and Galileo ?


I was speaking of the GPS correction data and I think you know it.
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Old 11th September 2016, 06:46 PM   #3111
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
I just have to wait for the ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 test i finish, its much easier
Actually it is totally beyond your ability to understand, Bjarne.
You have no idea what the ISS and Galileo 5 & 6 tests are.
You have no idea what the ISS or Galileo 5 & 6 orbits are.
If they show no problems with relativity you will probably claim that there were problems that were hidden. If they differ from relativity then you are incapable of showing that they agree with your RR/dark flow delusions.

For interested parties, Galileo 5 & 6 were accidentally launched into incorrect obits. The orbits were adjusted to make them useful for navigation but are elongated enough for to test the General Theory of Relativity.
Galileo satellites set for year-long Einstein experiment from 5 November 2015 so the experiment may end in November 2016 and be published in 2017.

The experiment is a 4-fold more accurate version of Gravity Probe A
Quote:
Gravity Probe A confirmed the prediction that gravity slows the flow of time,[3] and the observed effects matched the predicted effects to an accuracy of about 70 parts per million.
and
Galileo satellites set for year-long Einstein experiment
Quote:
ESA’s forthcoming Atomic Clock Ensemble in Space experiment, planned to fly on the International Space Station in 2017, will go on to test Einstein’s theory down to 2–3 parts per million.

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Old 11th September 2016, 07:15 PM   #3112
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Ah, Bjarne, there is the thing for you! Fiction writing. You seem to have some talent there. All you need now is a plausible plot.

Hans
I have read way too much of his writing to encourage that - there is quite enough bad SF coming from the idiots who tried to rig the Hugos to get them for their nut cases!!!!!!!!
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Old 12th September 2016, 12:07 AM   #3113
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Well, his fiction i better than his science, at least...

Hans
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Old 12th September 2016, 04:20 AM   #3114
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I'm arguing that whether or not it's "possible," we're not seeing it on GPS, and it should be visible on GPS. .
If a satellite trigger a alarm , the staff will take a look at why it happen, off course, - but if everything is as expected, and nobody know about that theory and measurement doesn't agree, its not sure any alarm will go.

Because the anomaly I expect not a escalating anomaly - this is only the case according to theory, not according to the "measured reality" after clock synchronize first one time is done.
So the measured time dilation will be understood as constant, - except off course influences caused by perturbation etc, .

Yes if someone should worry about the preccesion, the anomaly could easy be discovered, but why should anyone worry something is wrong ?

The point is; - when relativity have been tested 17 times when the first GPS 17 satellites was set in orbit, and everything seems to confirm the theory of relativity, it must be very very strange if satellite number 18 not also should confirm the theory too.

What I mean is, - after a lot of GPS satellites have confirmed relativity, I believe everyone is pretty relaxed, - not many really believe it is necessary to watch for failure in the theory itself.

So even if a very strange anomaly occurs with one or few GPS satellite, and even it seems to be a very unique anomaly, - not seen before, - what will then happen?

If anyone should suggest that such anomaly could be caused by a flaw in special theory of relativity, such a GPS staff member would most likely be considered as either nuts or stupid.

So many will think better don’t suggest such solution.
But even if this option finally could be a possible conclusion, - t I think the politic is to conclude “we don’t know”, - “don’t speak more about this before we know more” , because what happen if this instead was caused by a unknown technical error.
It can easy ruin multibillion business (as we already agree)

Who knows, - maybe unknown causes of anomalies is one of the reasons that ISS is chosen to be a test satellite for time dilation (and now also Galileo 5 & 6) ?’

At least we know, that this report ........
Benefits of a Centralized Anomaly Database and Methods for Securely Sharing Information Among Satellite Operators
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...RAND_RR560.pdf

reveals confusion and suggestions how better to solve anomaly problems that clearly not always seems to be an easy task..

Quote:
If it's wrong, it's not better. If the data doesn't support it, it's wrong.
I am afraid that would be the case, - but so much points to the a simpler world view, will triumph over the old really sick paradigm that rules now.

Last edited by Bjarne; 12th September 2016 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 12th September 2016, 06:24 AM   #3115
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
If a satellite trigger a alarm , the staff will take a look at why it happen, off course, - but if everything is as expected, and nobody know about that theory and measurement doesn't agree, its not sure any alarm will go.
Again, you're posting speculative nonsense about a theoretical workflow that would support your hypothesis, despite the fact you've been given links to information on how the scientific community ACTUALLY handles orbital anomalies. You have to LIE about how people do their jobs despite having been given PROOF of how they do their jobs including the DATA ON THE CORRECTIONS. You prefer to lie and accuse people you don't known of grotesque incompetence without evidence in order to keep your dark flow nonsense from vanishing in a puff of logic and data.

Through it all, you can't be bothered to request the actual data and crunch the numbers yourself.

You brag about being lazy and deliberately ignorant of science and math, why do you have to add slandering liar to your list of demonstrable attributes?
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Old 12th September 2016, 08:17 AM   #3116
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Again, you're posting speculative nonsense about a theoretical workflow that would support your hypothesis, despite the fact you've been given links to information on how the scientific community ACTUALLY handles orbital anomalies. You have to LIE about how people do their jobs despite having been given PROOF of how they do their jobs including the DATA ON THE CORRECTIONS. You prefer to lie and accuse people you don't known of grotesque incompetence without evidence in order to keep your dark flow nonsense from vanishing in a puff of logic and data.

Through it all, you can't be bothered to request the actual data and crunch the numbers yourself.

You brag about being lazy and deliberately ignorant of science and math, why do you have to add slandering liar to your list of demonstrable attributes?
We will see
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Old 12th September 2016, 08:27 AM   #3117
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No we won't.

I predict that by the end of 2017 you will either shift goalposts, claim 'they' are hiding the facts from everyone else, or just plain stop posting.
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Old 12th September 2016, 08:31 AM   #3118
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
And why do your calculations not correct for the fact that both the earth and the sun change position relative to your 'dark flow' constantly?

Or do you assume geocentrism?
This has been ignored repeatedly
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Old 12th September 2016, 08:36 AM   #3119
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
<snip of things that have no connection to the way GPS really operates>

If anyone should suggest that such anomaly could be caused by a flaw in special theory of relativity, such a GPS staff member would most likely be considered as either nuts or stupid.

So many will think better don’t suggest such solution.
But even if this option finally could be a possible conclusion, - t I think the politic is to conclude “we don’t know”, - “don’t speak more about this before we know more” , because what happen if this instead was caused by a unknown technical error.
It can easy ruin multibillion business (as we already agree)
Seriously, have you read anything I've written? There are people who've devoted their careers to understanding much smaller discrepancies in the GPS orbits. They speak about them a lot. They publish papers, conduct sessions at GPS conferences, argue with each other and various program managers.

And they argue over the little discrepancies because there are no big discrepancies.

Quote:
Who knows, - maybe unknown causes of anomalies is one of the reasons that ISS is chosen to be a test satellite for time dilation (and now also Galileo 5 & 6) ?’
THERE ARE NO LARGE REPEATING ANOMALIES IN THE GPS ORBITS. How can we look for the cause of a non-existent effect?

Quote:
At least we know, that this report ........
Benefits of a Centralized Anomaly Database and Methods for Securely Sharing Information Among Satellite Operators
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand...RAND_RR560.pdf

reveals confusion and suggestions how better to solve anomaly problems that clearly not always seems to be an easy task..
Fixing hardware and software failures on a machine that's 30,000 km away in an alien environment isn't easy. Quelle surprise. Why would this cause us to question the accuracy of GR/SR?

Quote:
I am afraid that would be the case, - but so much points to the a simpler world view, will triumph over the old really sick paradigm that rules now.
The measurements do not point to a fundamental flaw in relativity.
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Old 12th September 2016, 08:47 AM   #3120
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
We will see
The only Dark Flow you're ever going to show anyone is the post digestion alphabet soup you strain to produce your scientific "theories."

Real world technology proves your theory is wrong, and you're too cowardly to confront the evidence. You've proven you'd rather lie and spin than face reality.
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