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Old 22nd November 2022, 07:31 PM   #921
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
NATO is also gaining experience and inside knowledge on modern war at no cost in its soldiers' lives; no acknowledged cost anyway.

That's a stone-cold idea, but at least nobody dares to act smug about it.

I hope I'm right about that.

So, kind of like the Spanish Civil War then?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 08:44 PM   #922
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Israel needs to stop talking about all the stuff they're gonna do, and start actually doing some of the stuff they're talking about. I guess if Putin has Lukashenko, Ukraine gets Israel?
Israel's been in a bit of trouble recently doing that whole 'keeping a government formed' thing, so it's possible that the arguments over who to appoint to defense has kept them from doing anything meaningful.

The fighting between the obviously criminal far right and the less obviously criminal solidly right wing factions is obviously more important.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 11:25 PM   #923
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Once they figure that out their proxy war with Iran can truly begin.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 12:04 AM   #924
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political Theater - Bibi is pals with Vlad.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 12:56 AM   #925
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Here's the actual article link I forgot to include in that post.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2022/1...to-ukraine-if/
I have found Bulgarianmilitary.com.to be a bit sensationalist previously
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:32 AM   #926
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It seems the vaunted competent Russian missile-aimers, who are not targeting civilians, have hit a maternity ward today.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:44 AM   #927
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It seems the vaunted competent Russian missile-aimers, who are not targeting civilians, have hit a maternity ward today.
I don't think that there are any doubts that they are targeting civilians.

IMO if they hit a maternity ward, they were likely targeting the hospital.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 08:39 AM   #928
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Some interesting developments today - the UK is apparently sending Sea King helicopters to Ukraine. They've been training crews already. They're older, and not fighters, but direct transfers of aircraft to Ukraine from the West have been few, so it's notable.

Also, this Business Insider article is saying that NATO is being strengthened in a different way. Finland and Sweden aside, the expenditure of existing munitions means NATO is backfilling everyone with more modern equipment! The whole alliance is levelling up!
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:34 PM   #929
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It seems the vaunted competent Russian missile-aimers, who are not targeting civilians, have hit a maternity ward today.
But, but, but....

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I had responded to the claim made by Steve that what the Ruscists do is "killing civilians".
They do not target civilians with a view to killing them. They target infrastructure with a view to inconvenience them.
Dead babies (and their mothers) are certainly inconvenient, in some circles. Or maybe they are not actually civilians.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:45 PM   #930
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
But, but, but....



Dead babies (and their mothers) are certainly inconvenient, in some circles. Or maybe they are not actually civilians.
So we've established they can very accurately hit infrastructure buildings to inconvenience freeze to death civilians when they want... are they going to claim hitting a maternity ward was an accident? Is anyone with an IQ above room temp levels going to believe that?
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:49 PM   #931
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Is anyone with an IQ above room temp levels going to believe that?
Not even if the room temp levels were measured in degrees Celsius.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:58 PM   #932
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
So we've established they can very accurately hit infrastructure buildings to inconvenience freeze to death civilians when they want... are they going to claim hitting a maternity ward was an accident? Is anyone with an IQ above room temp levels going to believe that?
You got that wrong. Russians proclamations are made not to be believed.
It's a form of mockery. What ? Your maternity ward got hit ? Oh come on, it was but an accident ! Thing like that can happen. Oh you don't have means or balls to hit our maternity wards ? I thought so !
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Old 23rd November 2022, 04:06 PM   #933
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
You got that wrong. Russians proclamations are made not to be believed.
It's a form of mockery. What ? Your maternity ward got hit ? Oh come on, it was but an accident ! Thing like that can happen. Oh you don't have means or balls to hit our maternity wards ? I thought so !
Today European parliament declared Russia a terrorist state

In response Wagner leader prigozihn sent the European parliament a sledgehammer in a musician case..

https://mobile.twitter.com/wartransl...25040740655118

It's full barbarian warlord level
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Old 23rd November 2022, 11:13 PM   #934
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
Today European parliament declared Russia a terrorist state

In response Wagner leader prigozihn sent the European parliament a sledgehammer in a musician case..

https://mobile.twitter.com/wartransl...25040740655118

It's full barbarian warlord level
It has been the way for some time.
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Old 24th November 2022, 04:52 AM   #935
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
But, but, but....

Dead babies (and their mothers) are certainly inconvenient, in some circles. Or maybe they are not actually civilians.

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
So we've established they can very accurately hit infrastructure buildings to inconvenience freeze to death civilians when they want... are they going to claim hitting a maternity ward was an accident? Is anyone with an IQ above room temp levels going to believe that?
Your reading comprehension and critical thinking capabilities still suck at a major level.

First, about that maternity ward: In recent days, several credible western sources have hinted that Russia may be adding health infrastructure to its list of infrastructure targets.
Which, obviously, is targeting civilians and unequivocally a horrendous war crime.
Now that came AFTER I commented on Russia's ability to identify and accurately strike infrastructure targets, specifically of the electricity grid. If you believe I wrote, or meant, that Russia would never target civilians, well, that is only in your head, and plain wrong - your reading comprehension sucks, your critical analysis skills suck.

Secondly, I never wrote, nor meant to imply, that "inconveniencing" the population by taking out the electricity grid does not, in fact, result in civilian deaths.
If you believe I wrote, or meant, that Russia's attacks on the grid result in zero civilian deaths, well, that is only in your head, and plain wrong - your reading comprehension sucks, your critical analysis skills suck.

What I actually wrote - and meant - was that Russia is competent at identifying and striking critical nodes of the electric grid. Targeting a substation is NOT targeting civilians. Targeting a power line is NOT targeting civilians. Why? Because civilians do not populate a power line, civilians do not populate substations. And the missiles are not aimed at people, theyir aim is not designed to kill, by bomb blast and shrapnel, civilians. (Targeting a maternity ward on the other hand of course IS targeting civilians, as maternity wards, or hospitals in general, are populated by civilians as part of their reason of being. If you believed my previous comments about hitting the electricity grid and that not being "targeting civilians" would, in my view, equally apply to maternity ward, you are sorely mistaken, your reading comprehension and critical thinking ability suck in a very major way.

All I wrote - and meant - was pointing out that Russian cruise missiles and drones generally aim quite well and precisely at their targets and tend to hit them with precision, AND that, in September, October, early November, those targets were NOT private apartments, were NOT hospitals, were NOT playgounds, were NOT "civilians" - they were nodes of the technical infrastructure, hit with pretty good precision.
Do you copy that?
Are you able to comprehend that really very simple point?
Are you able, and courageous enough, to admit I implied nothing more?
Or do you hold on to arguing not rationally, critically, but emotionally?

Ok. Your decision

All that said: Yes, of course aim rate wasn't 100%, yes, civilians were killed as collateral casualties, either by one or another inaccurate missile, or by the unintended results of missiles being intercepted.
And yes, of course taking out electricity in many ways threatens the lives of many civilians - by threatening supply with food, clean drinking water, health services, and by forcing people to live in unhealthy cold. Do you imagine I ever denied this? Then your reading comprehension sucks in a very major way, or you irrationally made **** up.


[/rant]

ETA

Case in point about the precision and effectiveness of Russian missiles targetting the electrical grid:
Here is Denys Davydov's most recent (14 hours ago) video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-laC6aQ4zC8
Surprise: He has left Ukraine!
Why? Towards the end he explains: Number one is safety - he lived close (100 m or so) to a military base, and was simply afraid that munitions targetting that might hit his house (note though: None did so far! And he does not claim his civilian house was a target!). Reason #2 however is that - electricity is down too much! The Internet is mostly down! So he can't upload his content with desired reliability, speed and frequency.

Now some hard info comes 1 minute into the video:
Russia fired 70 missiles, 51 were shot down, 19 came through.
And just 19 missiles apparently were enough to put another very significant dent into the country's electricity supply, and also severely affected Moldova. So that reinforces the point I made: Russia is very good, ruthlessly efficient, at striking the mechanics of the infrastructure.

This is an important point, for the huge cost and damage incurred on Ukraine that way of course has to be factored into all sorts of strategical decisions, such as which weapons to deploy, when and under what conditions to consider negotiations, whether and how to perhaps escalate the war, or retreat, or offer concessions, or roll out another wave of sanctions...
Like I would really like it if someone got serious about eliminating ALL of the Russian Black Sea fleet, wich is still firing missiles into Western Ukraine.
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Old 24th November 2022, 08:08 AM   #936
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post

What I actually wrote - and meant - was that Russia is competent at identifying and striking critical nodes of the electric grid. Targeting a substation is NOT targeting civilians. Targeting a power line is NOT targeting civilians.
I think that's a fairly pedantic distinction. Why are they destroying civilian infrastructure? Because they want to make life miserable or impossible for the civilians. In my book, that's targeting civilians.
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Old 24th November 2022, 08:19 AM   #937
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
First, about that maternity ward: In recent days, several credible western sources have hinted that Russia may be adding health infrastructure to its list of infrastructure targets.
Which, obviously, is targeting civilians and unequivocally a horrendous war crime.
Now that came AFTER I commented on Russia's ability to identify and accurately strike infrastructure targets, specifically of the electricity grid. If you believe I wrote, or meant, that Russia would never target civilians, well, that is only in your head, and plain wrong - your reading comprehension sucks, your critical analysis skills suck.
Err... Added in recent days? I sorta have to ask where you've been? Russia's been targeting hospitals the whole friggin' war. In the first hundred days, for example, about 200 hospitals were hit. It's possible that those attacks didn't meet some narrow interpretation of "adding health infrastructure to its list of targets," but the attacks on medical infrastructure have been happening all along, regardless.

As of September -

Quote:
Since February 24, there was not a single day when the occupiers did not attack the medical infrastructure. During the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine, 927 health care facilities have been damaged or destroyed, including: 800 objects of medical infrastructure were damaged; 127 objects were completely destroyed and cannot be restored; 59 hospitals have already been fully restored; more than 200 medical facilities have been partially restored; 5 regions in which the medical infrastructure was most affected: Kyiv, Chernihiv, Donetsk, Mykolaiv and Kharkiv oblasts. This was stated by Bohdan Borukhovskyi, Deputy Minister of Health during the airing of a joint telethon.
Before Ukraine, there was Syria, incidentally. Literally, Russia was given a list of hospitals in Syria so that Russia could avoid targeting them. The result? Russia specifically targeted the hospitals on the list.
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Old 24th November 2022, 08:43 AM   #938
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It seems our elite Russian missile-targeters have taken a break from striking what must certainly be empty hospitals, since they're targeting infrastructure and not civilians...

... To just go ahead and target some civilians.

https://english.nv.ua/nation/civilia...-50286411.html

Same as they've been targeting civilians all along.

Edited by sarge:  removed rule 12 violation
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Old 24th November 2022, 08:49 AM   #939
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It seems our elite Russian missile-targeters have taken a break from striking what must certainly be empty hospitals, since they're targeting infrastructure and not civilians...

... To just go ahead and target some civilians.

https://english.nv.ua/nation/civilia...-50286411.html

Same as they've been targeting civilians all along.

Oystein is carrying a lot of water for a miserable pile of war criminals for whom not a single drop of water should be carried.
To add a bit more context, Ukraine's lost thousands of schools to Russian attacks.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:32 PM   #940
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Mapping incidents in Ukraine war

https://maphub.net/Cen4infoRes/russian-ukraine-monitor

And on the subject of infrastructure attacks

https://www.info-res.org/post/target...x-case-studies
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Old 24th November 2022, 02:51 PM   #941
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Err... Added in recent days? I sorta have to ask where you've been? ...
Among other sites, the Twitter channel of the UK Minsitry of Defense, which reported YESTERDAY:
Originally Posted by UK MoD
  • ...
  • Russia has largely used these weapons [i.e. UAVs] against tactical military targets and the Ukraine electricity grid. However, recently Russian commanders likely also wanted Iranian-sources UAVs to prioritise medical facility as targets of opportunity, and strike them with guided munitions if identified
  • ...
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Old 24th November 2022, 02:54 PM   #942
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
To add a bit more context, Ukraine's lost thousands of schools to Russian attacks.
Not so much to the current rounds of precision guided cruise missile and OWA-UVA attacks that are the subject of our current debate.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:19 PM   #943
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Not so much to the current rounds of precision guided cruise missile and OWA-UVA attacks that are the subject of our current debate.
Yeah, because they've switched to hospitals and trying to freeze the entire civilian population to death.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:40 PM   #944
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Not so much to the current rounds of precision guided cruise missile and OWA-UVA attacks that are the subject of our current debate.
They have been targeting educational infrastructure and that looks systematic

https://www.info-res.org/post/the-sy...nal-facilities

Also - remember the Russian claims and what they actually hit

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-a...es-on-ukraine/

Also, we cannot look at this in isolation.

We have plenty of evidence of systematic war crimes in the occupied areas, including acts that meet the definition of genocide. And deportation of civilians, and their children.

Because of this, we can say that there is no reason to suppose the attacks on the infrastructure are unintentional.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:47 PM   #945
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Not so much to the current rounds of precision guided cruise missile and OWA-UVA attacks that are the subject of our current debate.
If they are in fact as precise as you claim then that leaves no doubt at all that they are intentionally targeting civilians.

If they are imprecise enough that the attacks on schools and hospitals are accidental then you have provided indisputable evidence to refute your own claims that they are precise.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:03 PM   #946
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I think that's a fairly pedantic distinction. Why are they destroying civilian infrastructure? Because they want to make life miserable or impossible for the civilians. In my book, that's targeting civilians.
I agree.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:40 PM   #947
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Among other sites, the Twitter channel of the UK Minsitry of Defense, which reported YESTERDAY:
To poke back at what I said, I guess you're going with this option -

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
It's possible that those attacks didn't meet some narrow interpretation of "adding health infrastructure to its list of targets," but the attacks on medical infrastructure have been happening all along, regardless.
Even then, though, what you quoted indicates a misunderstanding on your part. "Prioritize" is not the same as "added." Therein lies what is probably the main issue that I was poking at. These facilities have been Russian targets all along. This is not something new or added. That there are apparently pushes to raise their priority up again over the more recent electrical infrastructure targeting focus is something worthy of note, but the implications are quite a bit different from how you actually stated what you did.

Elsewhere, though, I think that a Ukrainian initiative is worthy of mention. Points of Invincibility.

Quote:
We are also rolling out our new "Points of Invincibility" project to support people across the country. As of this day, more than 4,000 such points have already been prepared. More are planned.

If massive Russian strikes take place again and if there is an understanding that the electricity supply cannot be restored within hours, the work of "Points of Invincibility" will be activated - all basic services will be there, including electricity, mobile communications and the Internet, heat, water, and a first-aid kit. Absolutely free and 24/7.

Points will necessarily work at all regional and district administrations, as well as at schools, buildings of the State Emergency Service, etc.

A special website, nezlamnist.gov.ua, with a map of such points throughout the country is already available. It is constantly updated.

It's important to see now where these points are in your city, in your community, and keep an eye on the map for updates in the coming weeks as new points are added.

On the website and in all "Points of Invincibility" you will be able to find out where the nearest gas station, bank, pharmacy and grocery store are operating.
It's much better than doing nothing, of course. Hard to tell how effective it would be until it's actually needed, though, including whether the Russians would take the opportunity to attack those spots.
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:05 PM   #948
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According to r/ukraine, a better translation would be "points of resilience".
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Old 25th November 2022, 03:21 AM   #949
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Putin's strategy is obvious: make life for millions of Ukrainians untenable in Winter, so they will move to Europe to survive. This will create a populist backlash that will undermine the conviction of Europeans to further support the war and so they will put pressure on Zelensky to accept some kind of deal.

I guess that could work, but it ignores the US, which can support Ukraine singlehandedly, militarily.
Expect more Kremlin influence campaigns on Republicans to ditch Ukraine - because of Hunter's laptop .
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Old 25th November 2022, 03:42 AM   #950
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Not so much to the current rounds of precision guided cruise missile and OWA-UVA attacks that are the subject of our current debate.
You seem to have copped a lot of (IMO unreasonable) criticism for suggesting that the Russians have been hitting the things they have been targeting. I agree that the things that they've been hitting, energy infrastructure, hospitals, schools and so on are the things that they're targeting and it's not a case of them being collateral damage for poorly aimed attacks on other, military targets.

The Russians are not attacking Ukrainian military targets. I'm not able to say whether they are unable to target these (due to poor intelligence and/or an inability to hit mobile targets) or whether they could hit these military targets but have chosen to prioritise civilian targets. To be honest, I could believe either of these, but the civilian targets were known prior to the war, aren't mobile and are likely less well protected so it's probably a combination of factors.
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Old 25th November 2022, 03:46 AM   #951
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Putin's strategy is obvious: make life for millions of Ukrainians untenable in Winter, so they will move to Europe to survive. This will create a populist backlash that will undermine the conviction of Europeans to further support the war and so they will put pressure on Zelensky to accept some kind of deal.

I guess that could work, but it ignores the US, which can support Ukraine singlehandedly, militarily.
Expect more Kremlin influence campaigns on Republicans to ditch Ukraine - because of Hunter's laptop .
The price for Marjorie Taylor-Greene's support (and her fellow travellers) for McCarthy may be that support for Ukraine is stopped. In this case he may choose to do this rather than attempt to get bipartisan support for his attempted legislative agenda.

I have no confidence of the House's continuing support for Ukraine and because they hold the purse strings, Biden may not be able to continue to support Ukraine.
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Old 25th November 2022, 04:41 AM   #952
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
You seem to have copped a lot of (IMO unreasonable) criticism for suggesting that the Russians have been hitting the things they have been targeting. I agree that the things that they've been hitting, energy infrastructure, hospitals, schools and so on are the things that they're targeting and it's not a case of them being collateral damage for poorly aimed attacks on other, military targets.

The Russians are not attacking Ukrainian military targets. I'm not able to say whether they are unable to target these (due to poor intelligence and/or an inability to hit mobile targets) or whether they could hit these military targets but have chosen to prioritise civilian targets. To be honest, I could believe either of these, but the civilian targets were known prior to the war, aren't mobile and are likely less well protected so it's probably a combination of factors.

I can't believe that the Russians wouldn't be trying to knock out Ukraine's HIMARS and M270s if they thought they could. So I lean strongly toward "unable" rather than "unwilling."
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Old 25th November 2022, 04:54 AM   #953
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I can't believe that the Russians wouldn't be trying to knock out Ukraine's HIMARS and M270s if they thought they could. So I lean strongly toward "unable" rather than "unwilling."
I'm sure they are but they aren't using long range cruise missiles to do it. I assume that's implied in The Don's "the Russians are not attacking Ukrainian military targets" because it would be ridiculous to say the Russians are not using their artillery and small arms on Ukrainian military targets.
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Old 25th November 2022, 06:23 AM   #954
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yes.
By the same reasoning we should conclude that being shot in the head is an inconvenience.
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Old 25th November 2022, 06:28 AM   #955
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post


The point is: The missiles the Russians are firing lately generally do NOT hit random houses but nodes of the electrical grid accurately enough to actually majirly disrupt the grid.
Less than 30 missiles came through, but still 10 million people end up without electricity? That is a sign of a level of competence in aiming missiles.
Wow. Aiming cruise missiles at power plants and public electric infrastructure. Targets that are static, large and which location is often widespread public knowledge. Such skill. Such grace. Such competence.
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Old 25th November 2022, 06:42 AM   #956
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Wow. Aiming cruise missiles at power plants and public electric infrastructure. Targets that are static, large and which location is often widespread public knowledge. Such skill. Such grace. Such competence.
We seem to be discussing Russian military competence here. So this may actually be the epitome. Except, of course, when they miss these large targets and “accidentally” hit other equally large targets such as schools and hospitals
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Old 25th November 2022, 06:54 AM   #957
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Wow. Aiming cruise missiles at power plants and public electric infrastructure. Targets that are static, large and which location is often widespread public knowledge. Such skill. Such grace. Such competence.
I guess it's Russia learning the hard way. If they can't effectively target military assets with cruise missiles then they likely have three options:
  1. Attempt to hit those military assets - and likely fail, hard
  2. Don't use those cruise missiles
  3. Attempt to hit civilian assets - and likely succeed

From a Russian perspective, it would seem that the third option is the best (or least worst) use of their cruise missiles.
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Old 25th November 2022, 09:57 AM   #958
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
We seem to be discussing Russian military competence here. So this may actually be the epitome. Except, of course, when they miss these large targets and “accidentally” hit other equally large targets such as schools and hospitals
They almost certainly cannot hit mobile targets with their long range missiles. Iirc even Tomahawk missiles only somewhat recently were upgraded to be able to hit mobile targets. And that was mainly because we had no long range anti shipping missile.

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Old 25th November 2022, 10:00 AM   #959
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
You seem to have copped a lot of (IMO unreasonable) criticism for suggesting that the Russians have been hitting the things they have been targeting. I agree that the things that they've been hitting, energy infrastructure, hospitals, schools and so on are the things that they're targeting and it's not a case of them being collateral damage for poorly aimed attacks on other, military targets.

The Russians are not attacking Ukrainian military targets. I'm not able to say whether they are unable to target these (due to poor intelligence and/or an inability to hit mobile targets) or whether they could hit these military targets but have chosen to prioritise civilian targets. To be honest, I could believe either of these, but the civilian targets were known prior to the war, aren't mobile and are likely less well protected so it's probably a combination of factors.
Our* disagreement is whether freezing civilians to death is an inconvenience and acceptable war strategy, or the acts of a terrorist state. Not whether Russia can accurately hit buildings or not.

*As in between me and Oystein, I won't speak for anyone else here

ETA: and then they revert to hitting a ******* maternity ward proving it's terrorism

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Old 25th November 2022, 10:26 AM   #960
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In a nutshell:

"As a Ukrainian soldier said in a video clip early in the war, 'we are lucky they are so ******* stupid', and that's very true. It would be a lot worse for Ukraine if the Russians were smart."

"Ackshully they can hit stationary targets with coordinates on Google maps pretty well, so they're not completely stupid."

"Targeting civilians is a stupid strategy, though."

"Ackshully they're not targeting civilians, they're just [targeting civilians]. Also they're good at it, thus debunking the claim that they're ******* stupid."
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