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Old 22nd November 2022, 08:03 PM   #161
Thermal
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Why? That's what I'm trying to understand. Why do you believe that it was god and not Satan, or gnomes, or Loki?

Is the only reason that you believe it was god that you were predisposed to believe in god and not the other explanations?
For whatever this is worth:

Some people will feel a kind of quiet ecstasy, that they interpret as something supernatural. Maybe it was when they hit rock bottom and were at the end of their rope, maybe it was when they were meditating with their yoga teacher. The wannabe yogi embraces whatever brand of hippy-dippy teachings are going on. Another person thinks what they felt must have been the touch of God. Looking around, what do they see? Parthenons full of Loki worshippers? Football fields full of the faithful prostrating themselves before garden gnomes? No. In a predominately Christian culture, they see legions of Christians who claim to share that same state of grace.

I've felt it myself. Even learned to recreate it almost at will through adrenaline sports. Just a beautiful sense of oneness and being connected...centered, and feeling all is well and good. If the only time you feel.this is associated with religion, you become a convert, and no amount of dry criticism or snark will override that feeling what you think is "touching God".

Even really good sex will bring that feeling on, but it's hard to do on demand. The average person might be able to relate to that, at least. Can you imagine someone suggesting you abandon ecstatic sex because being a dour skeptic is more intellectually correct? Ain't happening, my brother.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 08:17 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Do you not feel the love of others?

Here is an example of christian "love"...

Originally Posted by VATICAN CITY (Reuters)
Pope Francis on Tuesday fired the entire leadership of the Roman Catholic Church's worldwide charity arm following accusations of bullying and humiliation of employees, and appointed a commissioner to run it.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 08:18 PM   #163
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
For whatever this is worth:

Some people will feel a kind of quiet ecstasy, that they interpret as something supernatural. Maybe it was when they hit rock bottom and were at the end of their rope, maybe it was when they were meditating with their yoga teacher. The wannabe yogi embraces whatever brand of hippy-dippy teachings are going on. Another person thinks what they felt must have been the touch of God. Looking around, what do they see? Parthenons full of Loki worshippers? Football fields full of the faithful prostrating themselves before garden gnomes? No. In a predominately Christian culture, they see legions of Christians who claim to share that same state of grace.
This is exactly what MarkCorrigan is trying to get to. Why does arayder attribute that feeling to the Christian god specifically, and not to any other source? My personal conjecture is that arayder was simply raised in a Christian context, and has a predisposed nature to attribute it to the Christian god. But this is arbitrary. If arayder had instead been raised in an Islamic context, they would attribute it to the Islamic god. If they were raised Hindu they would attribute it to a Hindu god.

The arbitrariness and culture-dependence of it should be strong circumstantial evidence that such feelings are a normal and natural part of human emotional range and have no supernatural source at all, god or otherwise.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 09:24 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
For whatever this is worth:

Some people will feel a kind of quiet ecstasy, that they interpret as something supernatural. Maybe it was when they hit rock bottom and were at the end of their rope, maybe it was when they were meditating with their yoga teacher. The wannabe yogi embraces whatever brand of hippy-dippy teachings are going on. Another person thinks what they felt must have been the touch of God. Looking around, what do they see? Parthenons full of Loki worshippers? Football fields full of the faithful prostrating themselves before garden gnomes? No. In a predominately Christian culture, they see legions of Christians who claim to share that same state of grace.

I've felt it myself. Even learned to recreate it almost at will through adrenaline sports. Just a beautiful sense of oneness and being connected...centered, and feeling all is well and good. If the only time you feel.this is associated with religion, you become a convert, and no amount of dry criticism or snark will override that feeling what you think is "touching God".

Even really good sex will bring that feeling on, but it's hard to do on demand. The average person might be able to relate to that, at least. Can you imagine someone suggesting you abandon ecstatic sex because being a dour skeptic is more intellectually correct? Ain't happening, my brother.

But if you have the wits to figure out the mundane nature of that emotion, why wouldn't other sane educated intelligent folks? Why this resignation to have them wallow in this silly and entirely avoidable superstitious sink-hole of unreason? They're neither animals, nor imbeciles, nor children, nor unlettered ignoramuses.

----------

Incidentally, and I realize this would be a major derail, but it might be interesting to explore your recreation of ecstacy through sports. Do you mean the zone thing? In which case I empathize. Working out does that, and running, and swimming, sex absolutely, meditation, even occasionally work. Is that what you meant, or is this more, or different?



----------

arayder:

Sorry, no, your kind of religion cannot make for peace. Here's why:

Your brand of religion is based on feelings, clearly, not reason. Reason does not preclude emotion, but your brand of reason-free feelings-only religion, while it's great if it works for you, that's cool, but by definition it's a random thing. Others would have different feelings, leading to different religions, or different slants within the same religion, and so different values, different agendas, different actions.

So no, your kind of religion cannot ever lead to peace, unless maybe completely by happenstance, and that necessarily locally, by a coincidence of a bunch of you having the exact same feelings as far as this peace aspect and the hows and wherefores of it.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 09:34 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
...

So no, your kind of religion cannot ever lead to peace, unless maybe completely by happenstance, and that necessarily locally, by a coincidence of a bunch of you having the exact same feelings as far as this peace aspect and the hows and wherefores of it.

And I doubt even that... having been privy to numerous fights between members in the one church... in various churches and synagogues... and to animosity and jealousy and vying for power or sycophantism to power and to one-upmanship and and and....
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Old 22nd November 2022, 09:54 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
But if you have the wits to figure out the mundane nature of that emotion, why wouldn't other sane educated intelligent folks? Why this resignation to have them wallow in this silly and entirely avoidable superstitious sink-hole of unreason? They're neither animals, nor imbeciles, nor children, nor unlettered ignoramuses.
I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but at a guess:

Maybe other folks don't have uninhibited sex with an enthusiastic partner. Maybe they are not into pushing their boundaries and playing their dangerous games a little beyond their abilities. Basically, if they have nothing to compare that experience with other than religion, then to them, it is only a religious experience.

I mean, I've known a bunch of peeps who get that hit through something like Zen meditation, and they start wearing their hair in a ponytail (or shave their head if they don't have the flowing locks for that anymore ) and decorate their homes like a Japanese shrine. It's not that they couldn't figure if out if pressed; they wouldn't even want to. I mean, if you think you have felt the very presence of God, would you want to shrug it off?

Quote:
Incidentally, and I realize this would be a major derail, but it might be interesting to explore your recreation of ecstacy through sports. Do you mean the zone thing? In which case I empathize. Working out does that, and running, and swimming, sex absolutely, meditation, even occasionally work. Is that what you meant, or is this more, or different?
Sooooort of. Being 'in the Zone', to me, means a perfect state of being in the present, and totally absorbed in the moment. Body and mind in perfect sync with no distractions. Awesome feeling, to be sure. But that 'State of Grace' gig usually comes afterwards, or in a rest moment, when you are...I don't know...maybe basking in the endorphin cocktail flowing through your veins? It's that time when you are actually not in the zone, but have thoughts and perspective, yet still with the brimming ecstasy, while being able to calmly savor it.

You're right, it's an interesting discussion, but way OT here. Here, we get yelled at and increase our awkward vocabulary.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:12 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
----------

arayder:

Sorry, no, your kind of religion cannot make for peace. Here's why:

Your brand of religion is based on feelings, clearly, not reason. Reason does not preclude emotion, but your brand of reason-free feelings-only religion, while it's great if it works for you, that's cool, but by definition it's a random thing. Others would have different feelings, leading to different religions, or different slants within the same religion, and so different values, different agendas, different actions.

So no, your kind of religion cannot ever lead to peace, unless maybe completely by happenstance, and that necessarily locally, by a coincidence of a bunch of you having the exact same feelings as far as this peace aspect and the hows and wherefores of it.
You are mischaracterizing my beliefs.

So far all I have said that's "fuzzy" is that I cannot fully explain why I was the subject of God's Grace.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:37 AM   #168
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A miracle story in my family, in times of my memory.

My grandfather had cancer. In 1966 it was serious and he wasn't expected to live long.
His daughter had a newborn baby that same year and then his cancer went into remission and he became cured, if only for a decade or so more.

Was it his deep catholic faith and his god giving him more time for this baby he so wanted to know? He never talked of asking so nobody knows.
Was it a reaction within himself that forced a cure god or no god? Again a healing by faith or pure personal mind power has no real explanation.

It happened, he was ever so grateful for it all his life. But fact is we have zero idea the mechanism that reversed a serious illness for so long, at a very key moment in his life.

The religious in the family say it was god and faith. A belief.
I simply don't know. But I am better for knowing him. He was a wonderful person.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:07 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is exactly what MarkCorrigan is trying to get to. Why does arayder attribute that feeling to the Christian god specifically, and not to any other source? My personal conjecture is that arayder was simply raised in a Christian context, and has a predisposed nature to attribute it to the Christian god. But this is arbitrary. If arayder had instead been raised in an Islamic context, they would attribute it to the Islamic god. If they were raised Hindu they would attribute it to a Hindu god.

The arbitrariness and culture-dependence of it should be strong circumstantial evidence that such feelings are a normal and natural part of human emotional range and have no supernatural source at all, god or otherwise.
Exactly. I do not doubt that Arayder felt the feelings they have expressed, to the extent that human memory can be relied upon. I do not believe they are a liar. Equally I do not believe my former coworker Phil was lying when he said he felt something while doing the Islamic prayer ritual. The only thing I dispute is the reason for the feeling.

If you feel something, you feel it, no question. The issue becomes why you feel it. If someone says something nice to us and we feel good, you can obviously attribute the warm feeling to the thing the person said. That means that the source of the feeling is easy to identify. In this case though, I'm looking for a reason to attribute the feeling to a god of any kind. What reason is there for the belie? Belief without a reason behind it is empty and useless, you could believe any old rubbish without evidence, both positive and negative things.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:10 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
A miracle story in my family, in times of my memory.

My grandfather had cancer. In 1966 it was serious and he wasn't expected to live long.
His daughter had a newborn baby that same year and then his cancer went into remission and he became cured, if only for a decade or so more.

Was it his deep catholic faith and his god giving him more time for this baby he so wanted to know? He never talked of asking so nobody knows.
Was it a reaction within himself that forced a cure god or no god? Again a healing by faith or pure personal mind power has no real explanation.

It happened, he was ever so grateful for it all his life. But fact is we have zero idea the mechanism that reversed a serious illness for so long, at a very key moment in his life.

The religious in the family say it was god and faith. A belief.
I simply don't know. But I am better for knowing him. He was a wonderful person.
I am heartened to hear your story, I'm glad you had the extra time with him.

As for why he was cured though? It sometimes happens. Happens with everything that isn't underlying and irreversable. Sometimes cancer just goes away. If people want to say that it was god then let them, but if there isn't a solid reason to believe it then the belief is just as likely as the belief that gnomes did it. Or Satan. Or Loki.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:24 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
God's grace, is the spontaneous and unmerited gift of divine favor. . . .
All of you folks who are asking for an answer could have brushed up on your Christian theology and saved us all some breath. :-)

This why myself and Benotto can't answer ya'll's "How come you got saved?" question.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 09:42 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but at a guess:

Maybe other folks don't have uninhibited sex with an enthusiastic partner. Maybe they are not into pushing their boundaries and playing their dangerous games a little beyond their abilities. Basically, if they have nothing to compare that experience with other than religion, then to them, it is only a religious experience.

I mean, I've known a bunch of peeps who get that hit through something like Zen meditation, and they start wearing their hair in a ponytail (or shave their head if they don't have the flowing locks for that anymore ) and decorate their homes like a Japanese shrine. It's not that they couldn't figure if out if pressed; they wouldn't even want to. I mean, if you think you have felt the very presence of God, would you want to shrug it off?

Someone who's never ever felt the zone thing, or put in less jargon-free terms, the complete-absorption thing? Someone who's never had outstanding sex, never fully lost themselves in some simple physical sport or labor (and I don't think it necessarily has to be dangerous, at all), who's never had a completely absorbing hobby, never ever lost themselves in work, never ever fully lost themselves in ...nothing at all, ever, other than in a religious context? That sounds to me like an extremely impoverished life, so very extremely as to appear actually implausible.

But you're right, should such a creature exist --- and my thinking that is implausible is merely my gut feel, and I may be mistaken --- then you're right, that does offer one reason (not a valid reason, but an understandable reason) why someone such as they might see religion or God as its source and/or cause.


Quote:
Sooooort of. Being 'in the Zone', to me, means a perfect state of being in the present, and totally absorbed in the moment. Body and mind in perfect sync with no distractions. Awesome feeling, to be sure. But that 'State of Grace' gig usually comes afterwards, or in a rest moment, when you are...I don't know...maybe basking in the endorphin cocktail flowing through your veins? It's that time when you are actually not in the zone, but have thoughts and perspective, yet still with the brimming ecstasy, while being able to calmly savor it.

Interesting. Usually we're so rushed that we immediately move on to the next thing. Well, other than two things, in my experience: mediation (Yoga, Pranayam, all of that), as well as sex. And yes, both of those one is often deeply grateful for, that is to say for uncommon pleasure from both of those, if that's what you meant. As for the rest, I suppose this shows how we need to slow down a bit, take the time to stand and stare just a little bit, else we do lose out on the savoring of all of that to secure which all of the running around in the first place.


Quote:
You're right, it's an interesting discussion, but way OT here. Here, we get yelled at and increase our awkward vocabulary.

Not to drag this back to those dregs, but while the fixating and the dogged and somewhat over-the-top calling out may be fact, but what has stayed with me, and repels me far more, disgusts me in fact, is the recollection of that sanctimonious, hypocritical parading of "Christian charity" while saying things that were and meant to be exactly the opposite of charitable. That's barf-inducing religiosity at its best, if you ask me.

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Old 23rd November 2022, 09:47 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
. . .Why does arayder attribute that feeling to the Christian god specifically, and not to any other source? My personal conjecture is that arayder was simply raised in a Christian context, and has a predisposed nature to attribute it to the Christian god. But this is arbitrary. If arayder had instead been raised in an Islamic context, they would attribute it to the Islamic god. If they were raised Hindu they would attribute it to a Hindu god.
A fair point, sir. But when this thread broke off from its original mooring over on politics the subject was Christianity.

More exactly it was about eliminating hate and injustice.

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Old 23rd November 2022, 09:48 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
You are mischaracterizing my beliefs.

So far all I have said that's "fuzzy" is that I cannot fully explain why I was the subject of God's Grace.

It wasn't and isn't my intention to strawman you, and I apologize if I've done that. I based my observation off of a cursory read-through of your posts here, where you keep fobbing off the efforts of MarkCorrigan, for instance, to draw you out on your reasons for believing by appealing to your feelings, and to your repeated assertion that you don't know why you believe, that you cannot explain your reasons for believing, but that you believe, you believe, all that. That sounded to me like belief based merely off of emotion and feelings and instinct, and entirely divorced from --- and refusing to be influenced by --- reason.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 09:51 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
It wasn't and isn't my intention to strawman you, and I apologize if I've done that. I based my observation off of a cursory read-through of your posts here, where you keep fobbing off the efforts of MarkCorrigan, for instance, to draw you out on your reasons for believing by appealing to your feelings, and to your repeated assertion that you don't know why you believe, that you cannot explain your reasons for believing, but that you believe, you believe, all that. That sounded to me like belief based merely off of emotion and feelings and instinct, and entirely divorced from --- and refusing to be influenced by --- reason.
No offense taken, friend.

The problem is the God's grace defies logic and reason. Back in the day I used to think of people citing it as the reason for this and that as a cop out.

Then I got healed.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 10:14 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
No offense taken, friend.

The problem is the God's grace defies logic and reason. Back in the day I used to think of people citing it as the reason for this and that as a cop out.

Then I got healed.

Not to beat this to death. I don't mind you holding on to your faith, not in the least. And you could examine and explain these points I raise (and that others have raised in more detail earlier) if you like, and are able to, or not, as you like.

When you assert that God's Grace defies logic and reason, aren't you, in identifying that even as grace and further as evidence of a God as source of that grace, essentially going exactly for a feelings-and-instinct based faith, that is divorced from, and refuses to be influenced by, reason?



You got healed. Fine, I'm happy for you. But why attribute this to grace, and further to grace emanating from a conscious intelligent entity, aka God? You will not say, you cannot say, yet you insist on believing that illogical unreasoning conclusion. Which is your right, but a feels-based, reason-free faith is exactly what that sounds like to me.

Further, to add more unreason on top of an already unreasoning faith, why the Christian God? And why that particular denomination, given that you've said that you don't think the Church or priest had anything to do with the healing? Even if you believe "God" is who caused your healing --- again, an unreasoning unreasonable conclusion, but even granted that unreasoning unreasonable conclusion --- why do you approach that God in Church and what's more in that particular denomination of Church? Why not just look for and to that God in the world, or within yourself, why associate the Church with it? If you must approach God in a place of worship, why not also in Churches of other denominations, why not in mosques as well, and in synagogues, and fire temples, and Buddhist viharas and what-have-yous, and those cute quaint Shinto temples, and ...whatever other places of worship you can find?

It all sounds nonsensical to me. Entirely bereft of reason. The faith, in the first place; and further the directing of that faith to that particular denomination of that particular relgion. Which, again, is your right, and no reason why you shouldn't do that; but unless it is merely feelings-and-instinct based and divorced from reason, then shouldn't you be able to discuss those reasons, rather than claiming that all of this is above and beyond reason?
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Old 23rd November 2022, 10:22 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Not to beat this to death. I don't mind you holding on to your faith, not in the least. And you could examine and explain these points I raise (and that others have raised in more detail earlier) if you like, and are able to, or not, as you like.

When you assert that God's Grace defies logic and reason, aren't you, in identifying that even as grace and further as evidence of a God as source of that grace, essentially going exactly for a feelings-and-instinct based faith, that is divorced from, and refuses to be influenced by, reason?
Well, actually I just present it as one of the reasons I believe.

I freely admit it's faaaaaaaar less than a complete proof of God.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 11:27 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So ....
Then I figure I gotta' at least breathe one more time so I suck in some air and let out a breath. The breath let out had a huge flume of white dust in it. I remember it shot over the shoulder of the lady in the pew in front of me and I though, "I hope that dust doesn't land on her."

It turned out I was breathing out whatever sick crap was in my lungs.
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
God's grace, is the spontaneous and unmerited gift of divine favor.

All of you folks who are asking for an answer could have brushed up on your Christian theology and saved us all some breath. :-)

This why myself and Benotto can't answer ya'll's "How come you got saved?" question.

Yes... it is indeed Christian theology that is being hawked (pun intended) here... that is why I responded to it already....


Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
God's grace, is the spontaneous and unmerited gift of divine favor.

Such was and is the case with me, I believe.

I believe.

So you are so very special... in your mind... while the millions of children and people groaning right now and screeching for relief from their misery and suffering... are not as special as you and do not merit your sky daddy helping them ... but you are so very special and despite not meriting it either he still ran on the double and came scurrying to perform tricks for you???

See... just that mindset alone is all a rational person needs to conclude that your religion is the furthest possible thing that could be a concrete thing we can apply to achieve Justice and eliminate hate..... even if your imaginary sky daddy were real ... it would still be a most unworthy thing of anything other than derision and execration....
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Old 23rd November 2022, 12:21 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
No offense taken, friend.

The problem is the God's grace defies logic and reason. Back in the day I used to think of people citing it as the reason for this and that as a cop out.

Then I got healed.
Except that you have absolutely no reason to attribute the healing to god outside your feeling that it is, which is almost certainly because you were already a believer. If such a healing had happened to a follower of the Olympic pantheon they might attribute it to Asclepius and there would be no less reason to accept that conclusion as there is for accepting yours.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 12:22 PM   #180
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Someone who's never ever felt the zone thing, or put in less jargon-free terms, the complete-absorption thing? Someone who's never had outstanding sex, never fully lost themselves in some simple physical sport or labor (and I don't think it necessarily has to be dangerous, at all), who's never had a completely absorbing hobby, never ever lost themselves in work, never ever fully lost themselves in ...nothing at all, ever, other than in a religious context? That sounds to me like an extremely impoverished life, so very extremely as to appear actually implausible.
Not quite. Being 'in the zone' is commonplace enough. I've read that something like half of us know it (and the other half think we are exaggerating a much more mild euphoria). It is what the psychobabblers call a Flow State. The important part is that you are so immersed in your activity that you take off the brakes and lose your ego. You are your perfect self. That's why even calm meditation will get you there, at least after you break through that wall, too. But a State of Grace, as I understand it, is the next level, and your ego returns, but you are still basking in your perfection. You are consciously, calmly, and intensely aware of it, unlike a Flow State.

Quote:
But you're right, should such a creature exist --- and my thinking that is implausible is merely my gut feel, and I may be mistaken --- then you're right, that does offer one reason (not a valid reason, but an understandable reason) why someone such as they might see religion or God as its source and/or cause.
I'm pretty sure a hung-up or hyper-conservative personality type could live their whole lives behind the Velvet ropes, and never take off the brakes enough to experience flow often enough to differentiate it from their one-off or occasional 'religious experience'. Hell, I remember reading that something like a quarter of women never experience an orgasm, and another quarter only very rarely.

Quote:
Interesting. Usually we're so rushed that we immediately move on to the next thing. Well, other than two things, in my experience: mediation (Yoga, Pranayam, all of that), as well as sex. And yes, both of those one is often deeply grateful for, that is to say for uncommon pleasure from both of those, if that's what you meant. As for the rest, I suppose this shows how we need to slow down a bit, take the time to stand and stare just a little bit, else we do lose out on the savoring of all of that to secure which all of the running around in the first place.
Yup. Living in the moment is hard to do, but worth it. God knows, we all vascillate between our heads being in the future or past, or being so full of ourselves in the now, that we miss the fun part.

Quote:
Not to drag this back to those dregs, but while the fixating and the dogged and somewhat over-the-top calling out may be fact, but what has stayed with me, and repels me far more, disgusts me in fact, is the recollection of that sanctimonious, hypocritical parading of "Christian charity" while saying things that were and meant to be exactly the opposite of charitable. That's barf-inducing religiosity at its best, if you ask me.
It's funny how personally some things get taken. See, I read these threads as good-natured needling. A little pointed, and some of the barbs might sting a little, but it's not actually hateful or anything. Some of us are openly being jolly about it. I ran out of pearls to clutch a long time ago. I even took a card recently for 'incivility', that was actually more than a little amorous. Meh. Different dispositions make things interesting, if occasionally violent.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 12:23 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Well, actually I just present it as one of the reasons I believe.

I freely admit it's faaaaaaaar less than a complete proof of God.
But the reason you think it was god was that you were already a believer. It is a completely circular reason to believe. You believe because you were healed, but you believe you were healed by god because you already believed in god.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 04:01 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
God's grace, is the spontaneous and unmerited gift of divine favor. . . .
All of you folks who are asking for an answer could have brushed up on your Christian theology and saved us all some breath. :-)

This why myself and Benotto can't answer ya'll's "How come you got saved?" question.
You are assuming that "All of [us] folks" are unacquainted with Christian theology, and that said theology has provided a satisfactory answer to this question.

These assumptions are unmerited. The question stands.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:52 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
A fair point, sir. But when this thread broke off from its original mooring over on politics the subject was Christianity.

More exactly it was about eliminating hate and injustice.
... and then you started to proselytise.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:14 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
A miracle story in my family, in times of my memory.
My grandfather had cancer. In 1966 it was serious and he wasn't expected to live long.
His daughter had a newborn baby that same year and then his cancer went into remission and he became cured, if only for a decade or so more.

Was it his deep catholic faith and his god giving him more time for this baby he so wanted to know? He never talked of asking so nobody knows.

So if he did talk of having asked then you would be sure it was his deep catholic faith??

What of the millions with "deep catholic faith" who die while pregnant or because of birth complications that could have been avoided had they used contraceptives or aborted.... what of the millions of children born with congenital diseases despite their parents' and grandparents' "deep catholic faith"... what of the millions of children who starve to death or contract deadly diseases from filthy water despite their "deep catholic faith"....

Why your grandfather was so special???


Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Was it a reaction within himself that forced a cure god or no god? Again a healing by faith or pure personal mind power has no real explanation.

Really... no real explanation???

If someone told the same story to you but instead of "deep catholic faith" used deep faith in Ganesh and Hanuman ... would you have accepted his story as a "cure by faith"???

Have you ever seen anyone use their "pure personal power" to heal a bullet wound???


Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
It happened, he was ever so grateful for it all his life. But fact is we have zero idea the mechanism that reversed a serious illness for so long, at a very key moment in his life.

Have you ever heard of something called the Immune System... and have you heard how it can be impacted by numerous factors including psychological mind-state?

Which do you think is more likely... a god who heals a few individuals willy nilly and leaves millions to die in their misery... AND ONLY in the cases of illnesses that can be reversed by the immune system... but NEVER in cases like regrowing limbs or closing gushing wounds from landmines or fixing down syndrome or spina bifida etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.... or... could it be... more likely immune system changes that helped in fighting off the disease that CAN BE fought off.


Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
The religious in the family say it was god and faith. A belief.
I simply don't know. But I am better for knowing him. He was a wonderful person.

So you are NOT an atheist... right???

An atheist would know that it was not faith or god.... no???
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:19 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
... and then you started to proselytise.
Well, proselytizing is an attempt to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

Unless you argue that me saying that Christianity can be a force for good is some sneaky form of proselytizing, I don't think you are on solid ground, here.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:46 AM   #186
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I have nearly never slammed anyone for thier personal beliefs. But thier presentation of them to others can sometimes be truly pathetic.

Arayder, you have nothing to worry about in how you are.

A big part of reducing hate and injustice starts with a basic idea of tolerance of what others choose to believe that one may not believe himself.
If faith in a god is your vehicle to that goal, it can help.
If just holding up the golden rule is enough, it's another.

Slamming on someone about what they believe is never going to reduce hate and injustice. It does the opposite.
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:07 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not quite. Being 'in the zone' is commonplace enough. I've read that something like half of us know it (and the other half think we are exaggerating a much more mild euphoria). It is what the psychobabblers call a Flow State. The important part is that you are so immersed in your activity that you take off the brakes and lose your ego. You are your perfect self. That's why even calm meditation will get you there, at least after you break through that wall, too. But a State of Grace, as I understand it, is the next level, and your ego returns, but you are still basking in your perfection. You are consciously, calmly, and intensely aware of it, unlike a Flow State.

That seems different than vanilla flow or zone. I mean vanilla's great too, but this seems a more exotic topping. You say you've experienced this, is it? And can discern the difference, at a personal level? That's very interesting, and would make for interesting discussion, if you'd like to talk in some depth about it!


Quote:
I'm pretty sure a hung-up or hyper-conservative personality type could live their whole lives behind the Velvet ropes, and never take off the brakes enough to experience flow often enough to differentiate it from their one-off or occasional 'religious experience'. Hell, I remember reading that something like a quarter of women never experience an orgasm, and another quarter only very rarely.

Well okay, maybe the one of those items on our check list, or two. But to never have experienced any of them?

This seems like a question that might be objectively decided via surveys or whatever --- "Have you ever experienced flow, or being in the zone?". Perhaps they have already? I mean it's not that offbeat of a question after all.


Quote:
Yup. Living in the moment is hard to do, but worth it. God knows, we all vascillate between our heads being in the future or past, or being so full of ourselves in the now, that we miss the fun part.

Mindfulness, all that. If only one would remove that from the to-do list, and actually get down to it in the present, no?!


Quote:
It's funny how personally some things get taken. See, I read these threads as good-natured needling. A little pointed, and some of the barbs might sting a little, but it's not actually hateful or anything. Some of us are openly being jolly about it. I ran out of pearls to clutch a long time ago. I even took a card recently for 'incivility', that was actually more than a little amorous. Meh. Different dispositions make things interesting, if occasionally violent.

Here's the thing. I might say the exact same thing about the repeated ridicule of Leumas, as well. Of the two, at least he's on solid ground factually. Of the two, at least he expresses his antogonism in a straightforward manner, rather than that barf-inducing religious "charity" claptrap --- that is not in fact in the least charitable. If the one, in fact the more ...objectionable, gets a free pass, because one isn't to take threads personally, because it is silly to feel emotion about a lifeless textual thread that's anonymous and kind of impersonal; well then why not the other as well? Why the constant ridicule of the other, in that case?

Like I said, it's not as if I'm going out of my way to get into these personalities. But when I saw that nauseating faux-charitable religious nonsense sitting there starkly, and right after that you ended up ignoring that and instead riduling Leumas's admittedly somewhat over-the-top-in-its-doggedness antitheism, well then that ...I don't know, that stark irony, it kind of stood out for me, and that's what got me to comment on it.
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Old 24th November 2022, 08:42 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Well, proselytizing is an attempt to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

Unless you argue that me saying that Christianity can be a force for good is some sneaky form of proselytizing, I don't think you are on solid ground, here.
Except that, as has been pointed out and never adequately argued against, the christian holy text is filled with hate and intolerance, and what good things are in it are neither original to it nor only found in it.
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Old 24th November 2022, 12:17 PM   #189
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The christian texts and the lives of those who proclaim to be christian are very different.

Atheist or theists can be intolerant pigs as well as good, charitable folks.

It's not a matter of what a preacher says how many people will act. Not for most I met.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:13 PM   #190
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Oh absolutely. As I've said, I'm related to some good decent people who are Christian.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:29 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
...
A big part of reducing hate and injustice starts with a basic idea of tolerance of what others choose to believe that one may not believe himself.
Ironic that you have not noticed that the most pernicious force against tolerance of CHOICE and democracy right now in this country ... are the christians....


Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
If faith in a god is your vehicle to that goal, it can help.
Do you read newspapers or watch any news?? Have you ever read any history?

I think you will find that FACTS of history and current affairs prove you arrantly wrong.


Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
If just holding up the golden rule is enough, it's another.
Slamming on someone about what they believe is never going to reduce hate and injustice. It does the opposite.
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I haven't studied them all. Most of them seem to me to be a search for the good and the divine. But, I am sure you can find plenty of scripture that says God and Jesus are the only way.

The very ETHOS and THEOLOGY of christianity... as evinced by its historical track record and by its scriptures ... is intolerance of choice of belief...
  • Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
  • John 3:36 ... he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
  • John 3:18 ... he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  • Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
  • Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
  • Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
  • Matthew 10:34-39 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
  • Mark 9:45-46 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:40 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
The christian texts and the lives of those who proclaim to be christian are very different.

Atheist or theists can be intolerant pigs as well as good, charitable folks.

It's not a matter of what a preacher says how many people will act. Not for most I met.

Except history and current affairs prove you definitively wrong.... you can repeat these myths you are promulgating about christians... but unfortunately... history... and current occurrences on the ground right now ... today... irrefragably prove you wrong.

I suggest you read more newspapers and watch more news and read the posts in this thread...


Here watch some christians WITH POWER and what they do when they have it ... let alone the track record throughout history....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:43 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Oh absolutely. As I've said, I'm related to some good decent people who are Christian.
....
Originally Posted by Steven Weinberg
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
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Old 24th November 2022, 02:00 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
...somewhat over-the-top-in-its-doggedness antitheism...

It is the lack of this that got us to where we are today in the USA.... it is precisely the delusion that sane people can reason with the insanity of the christian AGENDA that got the USA to where it is today... not to mention the rest of the world by proxy.

I am doggedly WRITING stuff... while they are insanely stacking the SCOTUS and House and Senate and Local governments to push their AGENDA.

If one is a VICTIM of the agenda... I doubt s/he would be objecting to the thought of maybe we should combat this agenda more forcibly and doggedly... and not by WRITING stuff.... for they sure have been doing it for the last 40 years while we are being nice.


Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Was it atheists who violently attempted to deny Joe Biden the space he currently occupies? Did atheists accuse Ilhan Omar of seeking to 'impose Shariah law on America' and target her with death threats?

All most atheists ask is that people who 'occupy space' in public institutions don't use the power of the state to force their particular religious beliefs onto others. Theists and atheists alike should be concerned about the propagation of such 'dominionism'.

If We Don’t Counter Far-Right Christianity, 1/6 Will Just Be the Beginning


Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
And the actual proliferation of their blatant push... as explained in this book:

Christian Nationalism: A Biblical Guide For Taking Dominion And Discipling Nations
Quote:
"This book is a guide for Christians to take dominion and disciple their families, churches, and all nations for the glory of Jesus Christ our King."
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Old 24th November 2022, 02:24 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Well, proselytizing is an attempt to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

Unless you argue that me saying that Christianity can be a force for good is some sneaky form of proselytizing, I don't think you are on solid ground, here.

Well let's have a look...


Originally Posted by arayder
Have you considered giving up that hate?
Originally Posted by arayder
This is the Golden Rule in action.
Get some help, Leumas. Find someone to talk to about your blind hatred. See your doctor. Check your meds. Get some exercise. Buy yourself some new clothes. Get laid. Reconnect to someone you love and take them to lunch.
Originally Posted by arayder
...
I was cured by the Episcopal Church in which I was sitting.
I believe I was cured by God who answered a prayer I didn't even say.
I believe. I believe there is something Devine going on. I know I don't understand it. But I believe.
It's called faith.
I recommend it
.
Originally Posted by arayder
Why doesn't God save everyone? Well, I believe his/her grace saved me. If God saved everyone, every time and never let me loose my car keys it wouldn't be our world.

I haven't studied them all. Most of them seem to me to be a search for the good and the divine. But, I am sure you can find plenty of scripture that says God and Jesus are the only way.
Originally Posted by arayder
All of you folks who are asking for an answer could have brushed up on your Christian theology and saved us all some breath. :-)
This why myself and Benotto can't answer ya'll's "How come you got saved?" question.
Originally Posted by arayder
Is it possible that the God/human relationship is not completely defined as yet?
Some point to the Second Coming.
Just saying. . .
Originally Posted by arayder
...
Then when the New Testament comes along it's almost like He's growing up. He sends his son to us almost as if he's struggling to get to know us. Jesus even talk edabout the New Covenant
The Gospels are where I hang my hat. Thes is lots of love a guidence there...
Originally Posted by arayder
In this way Christianity, practiced as it should be, is not hate, but is the answer to hate.
Oh, my! Is this leading us to a concrete thing we can do to counter hate]?
Originally Posted by arayder
There is a lot of interesting theology on just that subject. If you read the Bible you can see God seeming to sort out his relationship to us. One might ask how it is that an all knowing God had to send a son to us so he could know us better?
....
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Old 24th November 2022, 02:38 PM   #196
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Unhappy

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Oh absolutely. As I've said, I'm related to some good decent people who are Christian.

There are three ways one can do harm
  • Directly by doing an action that harms
  • Indirectly
    • Actively - By aiding of facilitating another person to do harm
    • Passively – By standing by and doing nothing to stop a harm
Obviously your nice relatives are not doing the direct harm. However, they and most church goers are doing the indirect part.

By giving money to the church they are facilitating it. By supporting it and not speaking out against any actions they are passively doing harm.

One instance of such indirect harm is by supporting the Church’s political view. Despite the fact that Churches are not supposed to disseminate or advocate any political party… they do.

So by tacitly supporting a religious moron to become a president or governor or congressman or senator or even mayor they are causing harm on local and Global scales.

By paying the tithe or more to the Church they are helping to give it power that translates into influence. This enables the church to make life hell for women who want to have control over their bodies or adult homosexuals who want to live in peace with their lovers. Bringing power to bear in order to thwart any research (e.g. stem cell) becomes much easier for moneyed and powerful organizations that work actively to undermine science.

When these churches have their way like what happened in Pennsylvania it results in harm in countless ways by hindering proper scientific education.

I call all this the Petri Dish Effect.

The matrix in a Petri Dish is not harmful…it is a sugary sweet medium upon which the bacteria feed. This bacteria is then free to turn virulent and thrive.

By hoping for and actively working towards precipitating the second coming they are basically hoping and working for the destruction of the world.

Ask them for instance to find out how much money their churches send to Israel.

Much of this money goes towards funding the fundamentalist settlements in Israel. This in turn creates more strife and perpetuates the enmity and hatred. Which in turn eventually causes death and misery if not global war (which is what the christians are hoping for).

Maybe if your relatives realized these facts they may leave the church or at least refrain from funding it.
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Last edited by Leumas; 24th November 2022 at 04:25 PM. Reason: The Petri Dish Effect
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:28 PM   #197
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Well, proselytizing is an attempt to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

Unless you argue that me saying that Christianity can be a force for good is some sneaky form of proselytizing, I don't think you are on solid ground, here.
I think it's likely that you're following the formula subconsciously, without even realising that you're doing it.

You're extolling the virtues of your religion, which implies without clearly stating that other religions, beliefs, or opinions are inferior and yours should be adopted. You're sharing your personal story to illustrate how your religion has directly and positively affected your life, which implies without clearly stating that it can directly and positively affect our lives too. And finally you're arguing that this isn't an active attempt to get us to change our opinions, which is also part of the formula. "Oh no I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I just want you to think about it for a bit and come to your own conclusions."

Like I have been saying, you're following the formula precisely, even if you don't realise you're doing it. You have been subtly "trained" by your church to follow this formula when talking about your religion, because they know that it works. Heck, it worked on me, back in the 80s when I was sucked into a Pentecostal church, and they weren't even subtle about it. They actively encouraged people to "witness" to others using this exact formula.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything here, I just want you to think about it.
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Old 25th November 2022, 06:21 AM   #198
arayder
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think it's likely that you're following the formula subconsciously, without even realising that you're doing it.

You're extolling the virtues of your religion, which implies without clearly stating that other religions, beliefs, or opinions are inferior and yours should be adopted. You're sharing your personal story to illustrate how your religion has directly and positively affected your life, which implies without clearly stating that it can directly and positively affect our lives too. And finally you're arguing that this isn't an active attempt to get us to change our opinions, which is also part of the formula. "Oh no I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I just want you to think about it for a bit and come to your own conclusions."

Like I have been saying, you're following the formula precisely, even if you don't realise you're doing it. You have been subtly "trained" by your church to follow this formula when talking about your religion, because they know that it works. Heck, it worked on me, back in the 80s when I was sucked into a Pentecostal church, and they weren't even subtle about it. They actively encouraged people to "witness" to others using this exact formula.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything here, I just want you to think about it.
You are talking about things of which you know nothing, friend.

The Episcopal Church is not evangelical and we Episcopalians don't proselytize.

Neither have I a said a word about Christianity being superior to other faiths. We Episcopalians are "allowed" to ask question and we value other churches and other religions.

I a truly sorry your "Pentecostal experience" was so bad. But that mud doesn't stick on me.

Last edited by arayder; 25th November 2022 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 25th November 2022, 06:43 AM   #199
Leumas
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Neither have I a said a word about Christianity being superior to other faiths.

Yes you did...

Originally Posted by arayder
Why doesn't God save everyone? Well, I believe his/her grace saved me. If God saved everyone, every time and never let me loose my car keys it wouldn't be our world.

I haven't studied them all. Most of them seem to me to be a search for the good and the divine. But, I am sure you can find plenty of scripture that says God and Jesus are the only way.
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Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
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Old 25th November 2022, 09:01 AM   #200
arayder
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Well, proselytizing is an attempt to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

Unless you argue that me saying that Christianity can be a force for good is some sneaky form of proselytizing, I don't think you are on solid ground, here.
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Except that, as has been pointed out and never adequately argued against, the christian holy text is filled with hate and intolerance, and what good things are in it are neither original to it nor only found in it.
I got a theory. It's probably something I heard and later pull out of the old memory banks. So I and sure if we google it we can find it without my name on it.

The idea is that God's relationship with us and maybe even God him/herself grows.

Hence the Old Testament is all fire and brimstone but then God wises up and builds a new covenant with us that includes his son, who is not allowed to touch the smite button on God's computer.

People like the new arrangement and the religion grows.

God wonders why he didn't think of this before the big flood and all that.
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