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Old 21st November 2022, 01:12 AM   #3081
Sol88
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Double layers are not magic. They are always less energetic than whatever forms them. They don't contradict what I'm saying, they are central to my point. And you don't understand them at all.
Really? Thought youd need a current to DRIVE a plasma double layer?

Oh, look ELECTRIC CURRENTS!

The Milky Way's mysterious filaments have 'older, distant cousins


Quote:
Using observations from radio telescopes, Zadeh discovered the mystifying filaments comprise cosmic ray electrons gyrating along a magnetic field at close to the speed of light. Although he is putting together the puzzle of what the filaments are made of, Zadeh still wondered where they came from.

When astronomers discovered a new population outside our own galaxy, it offered new opportunities to investigate the physical processes in the space surrounding the filaments.
Quote:
"After studying filaments in our own Galactic Center for all these years, I was extremely excited to see these tremendously beautiful structures," he said. "Because we found these filaments elsewhere in the universe, it hints that something universal is happening."
Quote:
Although the black hole's jet might provide the seed particles needed to create a filament, something unknown must be accelerating these particles along astonishing lengths.


Quote:
One wonders what could accelerate charged particles? Electric fields, maybe? <rhetorical>

Ummm...THE ELECTRIC UNIVERSE!
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Old 21st November 2022, 01:19 AM   #3082
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Quote:
An ion velocity higher than the neutral velocity is in direct contradiction with the assumption that ions and neutrals are collisionally coupled and thus in direct contradiction with the model suggested by Cravens (1987).

Vigren and Eriksson (2017) showed that such a discrepancy can be explained by low collision rates due to low neutral gas densities and propose that an ambipolar electric field (see also Sect. 4.1) can accelerate ions to the observed velocities.
The Plasma Environment of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Electric fields accelerating charged particles in astrophysical plasma's!
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Old 21st November 2022, 03:49 AM   #3083
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Really? Thought youd need a current to DRIVE a plasma double layer?
Did I say electric current? No, I did not.

You fail at every opportunity.
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Old 21st November 2022, 04:34 AM   #3084
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Did I say electric current? No, I did not.

You fail at every opportunity.
You need an electric current (observed) to have any chance at forming any plasma instability, including Double Layers.

Don’t you believe me?

Quote:
Large-scale electric fields include the convective, ambipolar and polarization electric field. They affect both the ions and electrons, and are important for instabilities and wave
generation.
Quote:
Electric Fields
Large scale plasma phenomena can usually be described using a fluid model. The main assumption needed is that the characteristic scale size of the phenomenon being investigated is much larger than an ion gyroradius. On smaller scales, either concerning physics such as the formation of pick-up ring distributions or where the characteristic gradients in the system are smaller than an ion gyroradius, electric fields become important.
The Plasma Environment of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Real mainstream science now...almost.
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Old 21st November 2022, 06:50 AM   #3085
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Really? Thought youd need a current to DRIVE a plasma double layer?
well you would be wrong as usual
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Old 21st November 2022, 07:12 AM   #3086
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
You need an electric current (observed) to have any chance at forming any plasma instability, including Double Layers.

Don’t you believe me?
I don't believe you. And your sources don't make that claim.

Every post of yours is a failure.
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Old 21st November 2022, 11:14 AM   #3087
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
The Plasma Environment of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Electric fields accelerating charged particles in astrophysical plasma's!
And the reason for that has been pointed out to you countless times. They arise, for the most part, to preserve quasi-neutrality. Which part of it are you not understanding?
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Old 21st November 2022, 11:50 AM   #3088
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
well you would be wrong as usual
Well, do your best to correct me.

Otherwise read up, son.

Quote:
Electrostatic double layers are especially common in current-carrying plasmas, and are very thin (typically tens of Debye lengths), compared to the sizes of the plasmas that contain them. Other names for a double layer are electrostatic double layer, electric double layer, plasma double layers. The term ‘electrostatic shock’ in the magnetosphere has been applied to electric fields oriented at an oblique angle to the magnetic field in such a way that the perpendicular electric field is much stronger than the parallel electric field,[2][3] In laser physics, a double layer is sometimes called an ambipolar electric field.[4]
WIKI

Do you need an eclectic current for a double layer to form, tusenfem?

Happy to call them an Ambipolar electric field if it makes you feel safer
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Old 21st November 2022, 11:53 AM   #3089
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
And the reason for that has been pointed out to you countless times. They arise, for the most part, to preserve quasi-neutrality. Which part of it are you not understanding?
Do not understand your lack of simple comprehension.

Instabilities are expected in a current carrying plasma..

Double layer is just one of manny.


This thread started from a “kink” instability in a astrophysical jet.

A current cat tying plasma.
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Old 21st November 2022, 11:55 AM   #3090
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Well, do your best to correct me.
You have mistaken a description of one way double layers can form (and even then, you don't understand that description) with a prescription for the only way for double layers to form. It's not the only way.
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Old 21st November 2022, 12:05 PM   #3091
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't believe you. And your sources don't make that claim.

Every post of yours is a failure.
Oh dear, hot gas it is,
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Old 21st November 2022, 12:10 PM   #3092
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Oh dear, hot gas it is,
Why are you here? Seriously, what's your goal for posting?
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Old 21st November 2022, 12:52 PM   #3093
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have mistaken a description of one way double layers can form (and even then, you don't understand that description) with a prescription for the only way for double layers to form. It's not the only way.
Still, they do form.

Ambipolar electric fields, double layers, shocks...

Hot gas and the influence of gravity.
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Old 21st November 2022, 12:56 PM   #3094
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are you here? Seriously, what's your goal for posting?
Make fun of just how seriously you take hot gas and gravity.

Once upon a time long ago there was nothing...then bang.

Nice fairytale.

The universe is electric (electric fields and electric currents)

You seem to struggle, as most of the indoctrinated mainstream bangers, with plasma, electric currents and electric fields, why?

It’s real science, plasma.
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Old 21st November 2022, 01:15 PM   #3095
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are you here? Seriously, what's your goal for posting?

To learn.
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Old 21st November 2022, 01:25 PM   #3096
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I’ve tried to learn mainstream stuff.

Nothing but dead ends.

For instance... Galaxy formation and evolution

Quote:
The study of galaxy formation and evolution is concerned with the processes that formed a heterogeneous universe from a homogeneous beginning, the formation of the first galaxies, the way galaxies change over time, and the processes that have generated the variety of structures observed in nearby galaxies. Galaxy formation is hypothesized to occur from structure formation theories, as a result of tiny quantum fluctuations in the aftermath of the Big Bang. The simplest model in general agreement with observed phenomena is the Lambda-CDM model—that is, that clustering and merging allows galaxies to accumulate mass, determining both their shape and structure.

That’s the best you can do?

No mention in the “best” mainstream model of galaxy formation of plasma, electric fields and electric currents. Why?

Lots of gas and gravity funnily enough.

Even the cutting edge of mainstream astrophysics is still hesitant to accept the role Electricity takes in the Universe.

Quote:
Evidence is presented that:


AGN jets are formed when the black hole spins and the accretion disk is strongly magnetized, perhaps on account of gas accreting at high latitude beyond the black hole sphere of influence.
• AGN jets are collimated close to the black hole by magnetic stress associated with a disk wind.
• Higher power jets can emerge from their galactic nuclei in a relativistic, supersonic and proton-dominated state and they terminate in strong, hot spot shocks; lower power jets are degraded to buoyant plumes and bubbles.
• Jets may accelerate protons to EeV energies which contribute to the cosmic ray spectrum and which may initiate pair cascades that can efficiently radiate synchrotron gamma rays.
• Jets were far more common when the universe was a few billion years old and black holes and massive galaxies were growing rapidly.
• Jets can have a major influence on their environments, stimulating and limiting the growth of gala
Blandford

Pick one and let’s see what the cranks over on the Electric/Plasma Universe have said in the past about the above. Put you big girl pants on and have a crack.
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Old 21st November 2022, 01:55 PM   #3097
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Do you need an eclectic current for a double layer to form, tusenfem?
No

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Happy to call them an Ambipolar electric field if it makes you feel safer
No, no need to mix unrelated things up.
Somebody mightily messed WIKI up.
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Old 21st November 2022, 01:57 PM   #3098
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
This thread started from a “kink” instability in a astrophysical jet.
No, it did not, it started with Zeuzzz's stupid EU ideas.
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Old 21st November 2022, 02:01 PM   #3099
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
To learn.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Old 21st November 2022, 03:39 PM   #3100
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To learn psychology.

Talk about cognitive dissonance.

You never come up with a why, except some vague mathamagicians drivel plugged into an incorrect model, you don’t believe your lying eyes?

Can electric current from AGN (big arse electric field) span the obeserved distances and energies?

Don’t really care about your gravity/hot gas combo, it’s is and has always been a dead end.

Case in point...

Quote:
AGN jets are formed when the black hole spins and the accretion disk is strongly magnetized, perhaps on account of gas accreting at high latitude beyond the black hole sphere of influence.
• AGN jets are collimated close to the black hole by magnetic stress associated with a disk wind.
Magnetic stress from wha, tusenfem?

I mean, really! black hole spins and the accretion disk is strongly magnetized, perhaps on account of gas accreting at high latitude beyond the black hole sphere of influence.

That’s the best mainstream can come up with after all these years acknowledging PLASMA?

BLANDFORD SAYS GAS why not plasma? Too hard? It’s not plasma but indeed a gas as we all know it here on the surface of this neutral atmosphere?

Or is, this your special “space gas”.

If you got your terminology correct, it would sound very much like the ELECTRIC UNIVERSE.

Quote:
1. Introduction
Attempts to describe the formation of stars and galaxies by processes that utilize only the gravitational force have been and continue to be elusive. No successful simulation of galaxy or stel- lar formation using only the purely gravitational ‘accretion disk’ mechanism has ever been accomplished.[1] Inclusion of plasma into simulations has yielded somewhat better results.
The purpose of this paper is to apply to the known properties of cosmic Birkeland currents, the mechanism called the Dual Plasma Focus Device, the process called Marklund convection, and the recent observations of planetary nebulae.
link
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Old 21st November 2022, 03:40 PM   #3101
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
I’ve tried to learn mainstream stuff.
But you haven't learned it.

Physics is a quantitative science. You can't do it, you can't even understand it, if you can't do any math. You have never done any math. You don't understand the mainstream stuff that you claim you've tried to learn.

I will refrain from judging whether this is because you have not tried hard enough, or whether it's simply beyond your capabilities no matter how hard you try.
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Old 21st November 2022, 03:49 PM   #3102
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Learned all I could about the weakest force in the Universe, it’s a dead end. It’s Not about the math my friend. You still have trouble with the very basics of astrophysical plasmas, so not really all that surprising.

Perratt

Good read, lots of maths too, ziggurat.

Point me out an error in Peratt’s math, I can’t. Can’t do mathamagiks.

Not an assumption of Peratt’s model, the actual equation that poo poo’s the electric universe (electric fields and electric currents in astrophysical plasma’s).

I’ll then run it past the team see if your any good at adding up.
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Old 21st November 2022, 03:55 PM   #3103
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
No



No, no need to mix unrelated things up.
Somebody mightily messed WIKI up.
Can a plasma double layer form in a current carrying plasma, tusenfem?
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Old 21st November 2022, 04:00 PM   #3104
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AGN jets are formed when the black hole spins and the accretion disk is strongly magnetized, perhaps on account of gas accreting at high latitude beyond the black hole sphere of influence. Blandford

I mean this is a real doozy.

I really really want to learn how gas and gravity give you such a large electric field?

How is the strongest gravitational force known’s to science produce such a strong magnetic field? Are they highly charged objects?

At what point does the gas become a plasma and start obeying plasma laws and not gas laws?


Moot point really any way, there is an electric field at the point where the jet originates from ( a BH) After to that it’s all plasma, as far as I can tell.
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Old 21st November 2022, 05:19 PM   #3105
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But you haven't learned it.

Physics is a quantitative science. You can't do it, you can't even understand it, if you can't do any math. You have never done any math. You don't understand the mainstream stuff that you claim you've tried to learn.

I will refrain from judging whether this is because you have not tried hard enough, or whether it's simply beyond your capabilities no matter how hard you try.
Ummm, you have still got your plasma training wheels on their sport.

Quote:
5.3 Outlook

It is clear that the philosophical strive to improve our knowledge of the physical processes in the plasma at the comet, and more generally natural plasma over a full range of collisionality levels, requires space missions that provide data directly from the source. Goetz et al. (2021) outline open questions and propose mission concepts that would be able to (partially) answer
them.
The Plasma Environment of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Philosophical strive to improve our knowledge, NOT mathematical drive, 'cos "Comet Interceptor is
a promising next step to pave the way of multi-point, larger-class missions for exploring the
exciting, challenging, and enriching plasma environment around comets, which has still so
much to reveal."
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Old 21st November 2022, 09:52 PM   #3106
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Learned all I could about the weakest force in the Universe
You have learned so little. And that's all you could do? That's... sad.

Quote:
Peratt was right about a few things, and those things are part of standard astrophysics. He was also wrong about plenty of stuff, like his galaxy formation model. His second piece in this series was on that subject, and has not withstood the test of time. It's badly wrong, and I've already gone through the math. Even Peratt gave up on electrically driven galaxy formation. And he never had a model of electrically driven star formation. You need gravity for that. But you think gravity doesn't matter, because reasons.
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Old 21st November 2022, 10:34 PM   #3107
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have learned so little. And that's all you could do? That's... sad.



Peratt was right about a few things, and those things are part of standard astrophysics. He was also wrong about plenty of stuff, like his galaxy formation model. His second piece in this series was on that subject, and has not withstood the test of time. It's badly wrong, and I've already gone through the math. Even Peratt gave up on electrically driven galaxy formation. And he never had a model of electrically driven star formation. You need gravity for that. But you think gravity doesn't matter, because reasons.
Well, you right royally ballsed that up, champ! How much force would this field apply to the sun? Well, we need a charge on our sun. Your predictions for the charge have always been absurd. So let's find a real estimate:

Not sure why you are trying to move the Sun

No mention of electric fields that are needed to accelerate particles?

Galaxy and star formation have a common thread, electricity!

Gravity n Gas, at least you can do the adding up on that one. Dark matter n dark energy...

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Old 21st November 2022, 10:39 PM   #3108
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You do know the sun is positivly charged, so says jd116.

Something about the ions being more heavier than the electrons. Leaving more ions than electrons.

Space charge effects!

Your adding up is perfect, your assumption are crap!
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Old 21st November 2022, 10:42 PM   #3109
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Not sure why you are trying to move the Sun
Because the sun orbits the Milky Way. If you don't accelerate the sun, then it won't stay in the galaxy. If you can't figure out how that's relevant to galaxy formation, you're even worse at this than I think.

Quote:
No mention of electric fields that are needed to accelerate particles?
The sun is not being accelerated by an electric field. See if you can figure out why.

Quote:
Galaxy and star formation have a common thread, electricity!
In the sense that electricity isn't a significant contributor to either, sure.
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Old 21st November 2022, 10:44 PM   #3110
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
You do know the sun is positivly charged
Of course I do. It's part of my calculation.

Quote:
Your adding up is perfect, your assumption are crap!
Then do the calculations with what you think are the correct assumptions, and we'll see what happens.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:27 AM   #3111
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course I do. It's part of my calculation.



Then do the calculations with what you think are the correct assumptions, and we'll see what happens.
Quote:
I already made a link to the ACE Real Time Solar Wind Page, and that page shows plots & data for the main ingredients of the solar wind: electrons, protons, and magnetic field. The solar wind is a flow of protons and electrons, away from the sun, in all directions, both at the same speed. Now, if the first "major property" of the electric sun model were true, we would expect the positively charged sun to repel positively charged protons, and attract negatively charged electrons. That's what the third "major property" says is happening, but we see that reality is somewhat different. The observation of electrons & protons both being "repelled" by the sun immediately negates any consideration of the sun having a net electric charge that can be detected anywhere in the solar wind flow. If the sun had a net charge that was large enough, then it should repel one charge and attract the other, depending on the sign of the sun's excess charge. But we don't see that.
Tim Tomson


Are they the same temperature?
Same speed? Fast and slow solar winds?

Your assumptions are incorrect. Electrostatics...
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Last edited by Sol88; 22nd November 2022 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:02 AM   #3112
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
"Philosophical" is an internal joke that you would not understand.
Nevertheless PhD is a Doctor of Philosophy, so it is also a correct word.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 09:01 AM   #3113
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Why are you linking to a page which debunks electric sun criticisms of the standard model? Did you just do a google search for some words and throw up a link without understanding what you're linking?

Yes. Of course you did. That's all you ever do.

As for the electric sun model being described, 10 billion volts on the sun? That brings us back to the exploding sun model of Juergens. Which I've also debunked with simple math already.

Quote:
Your assumptions are incorrect.
You have presented no evidence of that. Instead, you've presented alternative assumptions which are provably wrong.

What's the charge on the sun, Sol88? Give me a number. Order of magnitude will do.

Hell, give me numbers for ANYTHING about the electric universe model that's actually different than the standard model, and we can see if it makes any sense. So far, none of it ever has.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 09:06 AM   #3114
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
"Philosophical" is an internal joke that you would not understand.
Nevertheless PhD is a Doctor of Philosophy, so it is also a correct word.
He's also confusing motive and means. Math is not a motive, it is not a reason to try to better understand the physical universe. But it is absolutely a means to do so.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 12:02 AM   #3115
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
"Philosophical" is an internal joke that you would not understand.
Nevertheless PhD is a Doctor of Philosophy, so it is also a correct word.
Quote:
5.3 Outlook
It is clear that the philosophical strive to improve our knowledge of the physical processes in the plasma at the comet, and more generally natural plasma over a full range of collisionality levels, requires space missions that provide data directly from the source.
Not mathematical but philosophical strive to understand plasma (astrophysical)!

Oh...I get it...




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Old 23rd November 2022, 12:58 AM   #3116
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Quote:
5.3 Outlook
After the Giotto and Rosetta missions, Comet Interceptor is a promising next step to pave the way of multi-point, larger-class missions for exploring the exciting, challenging, and enriching plasma environment around comets, which has still so much to reveal.
The Plasma Environment of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Careful, getting pretty close to confirming Thornhills theory of a
Quote:
comet is a charged body moving in a radial electric field responsible for accelerating the solar-wind plasma'
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Old 23rd November 2022, 01:34 AM   #3117
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Switchbacks as signatures of magnetic flux ropes generated by interchange reconnection in the corona wOw, no gravity?

Quote:
The potential implication of the injection of large numbers of flux ropes in the coronal atmosphere for understanding the generation of the solar wind is discussed.
Quote:
Fig. 2

(a) Schematic of a flux rope with a magnetic field that wraps a core axial field. The flux rope is propagating outward within a solar wind magnetic field pointing back towards the sun. As indicated, the flux rope generally has axial flow. (b) Schematic of the relaxed state of the flux rope in which the flow within the flux rope is field aligned.
Field aligned currents? From the solar surface?

AGN "jets" force free field aligned currents, flux ropes.

Like Don Scotts force free field aligned paper. (flux ropes)

AGN Jets are nothing but massive electric currents. Same processes on the Sun as at SMBH/AGN's.

Force free field aligned electric currents, electric fields, particle acceleration, plasma instabilities...list goes on and on...
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Old 23rd November 2022, 01:57 AM   #3118
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
[

Careful, getting pretty close to confirming Thornhills theory of a
Well, there is no radial electric field, so ....
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Old 23rd November 2022, 08:24 AM   #3119
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You keep citing all these mainstream papers, full of measurements and calculations, dealing with electromagnetic phenomena. And this is supposed to prove that the mainstream is ignoring electromagnetic phenomena, and that's why the Electric Universe folks, who don't publish any papers, make any measurements, or do any calculations, are correct.

There's got to be a word for that. Might be against the MA.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:44 PM   #3120
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In Sol’s world calculations and measurements are “mathemajicks” and bad, but words-only contents are good. Words like “electrical”, or “plasma” are good, but “gas” or “fields strength” are bad.
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