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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 22nd November 2022, 04:53 PM   #3801
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is just politese before savaging them.
M-B hardly used flowery faux-tactful language when they savaged Nencini:

Quote:
6. We may now proceed to examine the motivational structure of the ruling
under appeal, the object of numerous critiques by the parties.
Even on first reading, discrepancies, inconsistencies, and errores in iudicando
[errors in judgment] that invalidate the overall structure of the argument ab imis [from the deepest] do not escape notice.


6.1 Erroneous, in the first place, is the assertion regarding the substantive
irrelevance of ascertaining the motive of the murderous act.

6.2. Another judicial error is to be found in the finding that the establishment of Kercher’s exact time of death was irrelevant, in the belief that the approximate timing offered by the expert investigations was sufficient, for all that this may have been correct at the trial stage.
8. Then in close succession the points of patent logical inconsistency in the
fabric of the reasoning of the challenged ruling are identified.

8.1. An element of evidence of unchallengeable relevance - for the reasons
explained hereinafter - is represented by the total absence of biological traces
attributable with certainty to the two defendants in the murder room or on the body of the victim, whereas, instead, abundant traces surely attributable to Guede have been found.
This was an insurmountable monolithic barrier on the path taken by the factfinding judge to arrive at the conviction of the present defendants, already acquitted previously for the murder by the Court of Appeals of Perugia.

Quote:
There are, furthermore, patent [factual] errors in the reasoning of the ruling under examination.
Quote:
9. The ascertained errores in iudicando [errors in judgment] and the logical inconsistencies pointed out invalidate the appealed verdict from the funditus[foundations], hence it deserves to be annulled.
The aforementioned reasons for annulling can be summarised in the inability to present an evidentiary framework that can really be considered suitable to support a pronouncement of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, as required by Article 533 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure in the text renewed by Article 5 of the law n. 46/2006.
I could go on quoting M-B's detailed dismantling Nencini, but I think they summed it up well:

Quote:
In fact, in the presence of a scenario marked by many contradictions, the referral judge should not have come to a verdict of guilt, but - as previously observed – should have reached a verdict of not guilty, given Article 530, section 2, Italian Code of Criminal Procedure.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 05:02 PM   #3802
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I have a speculation as to the answer to that.
So do I, but I'd like to see Vixen's explanation. Not that she'll ever give one.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:46 PM   #3803
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Pick a lane. Was (a) AK trying to cover for Guede or (b) to point the police towards him? Choose (a) or (b).
Here's the thing that makes Vixen's whole comment so ridiculous - if Amanda had been with Guede, the last thing Amanda would want would be for the police to figure out his involvement because surely his implicating her would be the next thing to happen. So to suggest she was trying to point the police towards Guede is in itself rather idiotic. That would be the last thing she'd want to do.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 07:14 PM   #3804
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Here's the thing that makes Vixen's whole comment so ridiculous - if Amanda had been with Guede, the last thing Amanda would want would be for the police to figure out his involvement because surely his implicating her would be the next thing to happen. So to suggest she was trying to point the police towards Guede is in itself rather idiotic. That would be the last thing she'd want to do.
One thing?
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:48 AM   #3805
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
One thing?
I was being kind...
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Old 23rd November 2022, 10:30 AM   #3806
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The notion that Amanda fingered Lumumba knowing that the cops would figure out that he was not involved and then turn their attention to Guede is batcrap crazy.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 11:05 AM   #3807
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What Nencini thought of Vecchiotti

I have spent way, way too much time reading an English translation of the Nencini motivations report - doing word searches on 'Vecchiotti', to glean his attitude to the C&V report, and to listen to his own understanding of what the 2013 Chieffi SC panel tasked him to do.

Suffice it to say that Nencini's words are nothing like what Vixen, TJMK, the fake-wiki, or Krissy-G say. Those four entities stand alone in misrepresenting even a convicting, lower court!

Nencini confirms that the Chieffi SC panel did not necessarily expunge C&V - quite the contrary, Nencini regards them as experts, the equal to Stefanoni (!). What he understands he was charged to do in retrying the case, was to correct the fault Chieffi found in Hellmann, not a fault in C&V, the fault of farming out the judicial decision to test Trace I to C&V, to a non-judicial entity, rather than Hellmann making the decision himself.

Remember the reason why the original court, the Massei court, refused to appoint independent forensic experts? That was because, Massei had argued, at best those independents would agree with Stefanoni, at worst would disagree. Massei had argued that (him being the expert of the experts) it still would belong to the court to decide, regardless of what an independent found.

Nencini goes through the conflicts one by one, the conflicts between Stefanoni and C&V and unilaterally sides with Stefanoni on all of them - often by offering stunningly ignorant reasons why he chose Stefanoni. Like when he explained away the extra-male identities on Trace B from the clasp, probably being from the victim's girlfriends.

Note the 'probably'. That's bad enough. Nencini speculated, fresh from writing on a previous page that evidence was not to be the result of speculation. But the male-identities being from the victim's girlfriends.......!? That's no typo. Nencini is offering it as an innocent explanation as to why he hand-waves away contamination!

Anyway, no sense making this longer than it needs to be. It's just that Vixen, TJMK, the fake-wiki, or Krissy-G stand alone in how they represent Nencini!!!! There's a bizarre agenda to them, where they just make stuff up, even stuff to do with the courts they pretend to support!
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.

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Old 23rd November 2022, 12:09 PM   #3808
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
I have spent way, way too much time reading an English translation of the Nencini motivations report - doing word searches on 'Vecchiotti', to glean his attitude to the C&V report, and to listen to his own understanding of what the 2013 Chieffi SC panel tasked him to do.

Suffice it to say that Nencini's words are nothing like what Vixen, TJMK, the fake-wiki, or Krissy-G say. Those four entities stand alone in misrepresenting even a convicting, lower court!

Nencini confirms that the Chieffi SC panel did not necessarily expunge C&V - quite the contrary, Nencini regards them as experts, the equal to Stefanoni (!). What he understands he was charged to do in retrying the case, was to correct the fault Chieffi found in Hellmann, not a fault in C&V, the fault of farming out the judicial decision to test Trace I to C&V, to a non-judicial entity, rather than Hellmann making the decision himself.

Remember the reason why the original court, the Massei court, refused to appoint independent forensic experts? That was because, Massei had argued, at best those independents would agree with Stefanoni, at worst would disagree. Massei had argued that (him being the expert of the experts) it still would belong to the court to decide, regardless of what an independent found.

Nencini goes through the conflicts one by one, the conflicts between Stefanoni and C&V and unilaterally sides with Stefanoni on all of them - often by offering stunningly ignorant reasons why he chose Stefanoni. Like when he explained away the extra-male identities on Trace B from the clasp, probably being from the victim's girlfriends.

Note the 'probably'. That's bad enough. Nencini speculated, fresh from writing on a previous page that evidence was not to be the result of speculation. But the male-identities being from the victim's girlfriends.......!? That's no typo. Nencini is offering it as an innocent explanation as to why he hand-waves away contamination!

Anyway, no sense making this longer than it needs to be. It's just that Vixen, TJMK, the fake-wiki, or Krissy-G stand alone in how they represent Nencini!!!! There's a bizarre agenda to them, where they just make stuff up, even stuff to do with the courts they pretend to support!
There are several points of interest in this post.

1. The Chieffi CSC panel criticized the Hellmann appeal court for letting C&V not test the I sample, but if C&V in their professional, expert opinions considered that they were not equipped to test it, that was an acceptable decision by Hellmann. The question would be whether or not there was any other DNA lab truly capable of testing that sample at the relevant time.

IMO, the Chieffi judgment could have legitimately annulled the Hellmann acquittal on the basis of the lack of testing of sample I, and referred the case for testing that sample, if a lab truly capable of testing it was available.** However, the Chieffi judgment also contained a large number of scientifically or legally questionable and arbitrary or otherwise unlawful statements. The legal point Chieffi and several of the Italian courts missed is the presumption of innocence - a principle explicitly guaranteed in an article of the Italian Constitution and in the European Convention - requires that any doubt in a case should be interpreted in favor of the accused.

Regarding the need to resolve conflicts in expert opinions in court cases, the ECHR has recently issued a judgment* that makes clear that the defense has a right to seek a third opinion if there is a conflict between the opinions of the prosecution expert and the defense expert. Therefore, certainly, the judge has the right or authority to seek a third opinion to resolve a conflict between the opinions of the prosecution and defense experts.

* https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-220666
paragraphs 65 -67

** On the other hand, it could be argued legitimately that the collection and storage of the knife were so contrary to the required standards of traceability and prevention of contamination that it should have been excluded as evidence from the beginning.

Last edited by Numbers; 23rd November 2022 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:10 PM   #3809
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Another example of Massei speculating without any supporting evidence in order to support the kitchen knife as the murder weapon is the explanation of how that knife got to the cottage when the murder was not pre-meditated. To claim that a sharp, pointed, foot-long knife with an exposed blade of just under 9 inches would be carried around in Knox's bag "for protection" at Sollecito's insistence is beyond ludicrous. It becomes even more irrational when you consider that RS had much more appropriately sized and safe knives in his possession that he could have lent her. Add to that the fact that the cloth bag showed zero evidence of having a knife of any kind in it: no cuts, no damage. If the murder were spontaneous as Massei concluded, the murderer would have taken one of the knives from the cottage kitchen. But he had to find a way for Sollecito's kitchen knife to be in the cottage that night, so the "knife for protection in Knox's bag" had to be invented.

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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:13 PM   #3810
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Quote:
It's just that Vixen, TJMK, the fake-wiki, or Krissy-G stand alone in how they represent Nencini!!!!
No need to be redundant.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:20 PM   #3811
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
There are several points of interest in this post.

1. The Chieffi CSC panel criticized the Hellmann appeal court for letting C&V not test the I sample, but if C&V in their professional, expert opinions considered that they were not equipped to test it, that was an acceptable decision by Hellmann. The question would be whether or not there was any other DNA lab truly capable of testing that sample at the relevant time.

IMO, the Chieffi judgment could have legitimately annulled the Hellmann acquittal on the basis of the lack of testing of sample I, and referred the case for testing that sample, if a lab truly capable of testing it was available.** However, the Chieffi judgment also contained a large number of scientifically or legally questionable and arbitrary or otherwise unlawful statements. The legal point Chieffi and several of the Italian courts missed is the presumption of innocence - a principle explicitly guaranteed in an article of the Italian Constitution and in the European Convention - requires that any doubt in a case should be interpreted in favor of the accused.

Regarding the need to resolve conflicts in expert opinions in court cases, the ECHR has recently issued a judgment* that makes clear that the defense has a right to seek a third opinion if there is a conflict between the opinions of the prosecution expert and the defense expert. Therefore, certainly, the judge has the right or authority to seek a third opinion to resolve a conflict between the opinions of the prosecution and defense experts.

* https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-220666
paragraphs 65 -67

** On the other hand, it could be argued legitimately that the collection and storage of the knife were so contrary to the required standards of traceability and prevention of contamination that it should have been excluded as evidence from the beginning.
There is a massive elephant in the room which the courts ignored and that was the characteristics of the knife would have made it impossible for the knife to have been used to stab Meredith or contain DNA.

The knife was picked at random with no other knives taken from Raffaele’s kitchen or the cottage. Is it credible a knife collected under these circumstances was the murder weapon.
The knife didn’t match a bloody imprint on the bed.
The knife was too large to have caused the two smaller wounds.
There was bruising on the fatal wound which indicated the knife had gone all the way in. The length of the fatal wound was 8 cm whilst the length of the knife was 17 cm which indicated the knife couldn’t have caused the larger wound.
The knife didn’t have any blood or human biological material on it.
The defence had no objection to the knife being opened while the prosecution didn’t want the knife opened.

Numerous questions are raised by the use of the knife as evidence

1) If the prosecution had a mountain of solid evidence and a slam dunk case, why did the prosecution have to resort to using evidence totally lacking credibility and full of holes such as the knife and 15 years later PGP have to argue their case on this evidence. If the prosecution had such a solid case, why is that with six years to argue their case a knife whose characteristics would have made it physically impossible to have been used to stab Meredith or contain DNA and has zero credibility is the best evidence the prosecution can come up with?

2)Vixen constantly boasts about how fair the Massei and Nencini courts were. How can it be fair to convict someone on the basis of evidence with no credibility full of holes such as the knife? How can it be fair to convict someone on the basis of DNA which can't exist?

3)Stefanoni had to resort to lying, suppressing evidence and committing fraud which indicated there was no valid DNA on the knife which was completely ignored by all the courts. In view of this how can the supposed DNA on the knife be used as evidence to convict someone? How can the Massei and Nencini courts be fair when the numerous abuses and corruption of the prosecution were ignored?

4) How can it be fair to convict someone on the basis of supposed DNA on the knife when Vixen's idol Stefanoni can't answer a basic question such as how much DNA was on the knife? Would it be acceptable to convict someone of drink driving when the police can't tell what the blood alcohol level was?

5) Vixen constantly bangs on about Amanda and Raffaele telling numerous lies. Defendants resort to lying to explain away damming evidence. Why would Amand and Raffaele need to lie to explain away evidence with no credibility such as the knife?
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Old 23rd November 2022, 04:47 PM   #3812
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
There is a massive elephant in the room which the courts ignored and that was the characteristics of the knife would have made it impossible for the knife to have been used to stab Meredith or contain DNA.

The knife was picked at random with no other knives taken from Raffaele’s kitchen or the cottage. Is it credible a knife collected under these circumstances was the murder weapon.
The knife didn’t match a bloody imprint on the bed.
The knife was too large to have caused the two smaller wounds.
There was bruising on the fatal wound which indicated the knife had gone all the way in. The length of the fatal wound was 8 cm whilst the length of the knife was 17 cm which indicated the knife couldn’t have caused the larger wound.
The knife didn’t have any blood or human biological material on it.
The defence had no objection to the knife being opened while the prosecution didn’t want the knife opened.

Numerous questions are raised by the use of the knife as evidence

1) If the prosecution had a mountain of solid evidence and a slam dunk case, why did the prosecution have to resort to using evidence totally lacking credibility and full of holes such as the knife and 15 years later PGP have to argue their case on this evidence. If the prosecution had such a solid case, why is that with six years to argue their case a knife whose characteristics would have made it physically impossible to have been used to stab Meredith or contain DNA and has zero credibility is the best evidence the prosecution can come up with?

2)Vixen constantly boasts about how fair the Massei and Nencini courts were. How can it be fair to convict someone on the basis of evidence with no credibility full of holes such as the knife? How can it be fair to convict someone on the basis of DNA which can't exist?

3)Stefanoni had to resort to lying, suppressing evidence and committing fraud which indicated there was no valid [Kercher] DNA on the knife which was completely ignored by all the courts. In view of this how can the supposed [Kercher] DNA on the knife be used as evidence to convict someone? How can the Massei and Nencini courts be fair when the numerous abuses and corruption of the prosecution were ignored?

4) How can it be fair to convict someone on the basis of supposed DNA on the knife when Vixen's idol Stefanoni can't answer a basic question such as how much DNA was on the knife? Would it be acceptable to convict someone of drink driving when the police can't tell what the blood alcohol level was?

5) Vixen constantly bangs on about Amanda and Raffaele telling numerous lies. Defendants resort to lying to explain away damming evidence. Why would Amand and Raffaele need to lie to explain away evidence with no credibility such as the knife?
Welshman, all good points.

In your point number 3, you left out stating that the unreliable ("invalid") DNA profile was that of Kercher; I took the liberty of inserting that identifier in your quoted post above.

There was no dispute that the DNA profile on the handle was that of Knox. It was there because she had used the knife in Sollecito's apartment to prepare food, not because of any criminal act.

The fabrication of assumptions by Massei and other Italian judges, false inferences from unreliable or fraudulent evidence, is apparently a feature brought over from the inquisitorial Italian judicial system supposedly largely eliminated by the 1988 reforms of the Italian Constitution and Code of Criminal Procedure.

An interesting article authored by a professor and a research fellow from Yale Law School, relying on European legal experts for information, discusses the inquisitional system in Italy (and in France and Germany) as of 1977. One point of interest made in the discussion of the Italian inquisitional system is that the judges did not, in practice, pay attention to any procedural irregularities (violations of procedural law) committed by the police or prosecutor. The power of the police was increased by the failure of the prosecutor or judge to review the actions of the police. The prosecutor or judge did not inquire as to whether an arrest was the result of illegal conduct by the police or whether an interrogation was unlawful. The judge sometimes would ask for a procedure to be redone if the original procedure, such as an interrogation, was found to have been "defective".

Quote:
At no point, before trial or after, do courts systematically examine dossiers to assure the regularity of police investigations.
Source:

https://openyls.law.yale.edu/bitstre...=2&isAllowed=y
p. 257 -259

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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:44 PM   #3813
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Interesting, Numbers. This lack of oversight of the police/prosecutors by the court would certainly have emboldened them to break the law. Even though they've supposedly switched from the inquisitorial to accusatorial system, they still have a lot of power and power tends to corrupt. Of course, this is certainly not restricted to Italy.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:58 PM   #3814
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Just for the record:
Looks like Pete finally caught up
Dr Mignini’s 360-Page Blockbuster Book Due To Be Released in One Month

Excerpts:
Quote:
"Dr Mignini’s book will be released before Christmas by the University Of Perugia Press.
An English edition of the ultra-serious 360-page opus is in the works. We have not seen it yet, but we do understand that it closely mirrors and takes much further the general thrust of this page.
"We have not seen it yet"...OK...
Quote:
It follows hard on the heels of the Rudy Guede book which has just hammmered home that:
(1) all courts ruled that it had to have been a three-person attack (this was largely based on autopsy and situational evidence and a whole-day reconstruction PRESENTED IN CLOSED COURT);
(2) Knox & Sollecito were definitely at the scene of the crime; there was not a single scrap of evidnce that anyone else was."
"Guede's Book" "hammmered home" something? How?
Quote:
The President of the Republic and the Italian Supreme Court can each order a reopening of the case and a repeat of the final appeal.
The initiative is said to already have support within Parliament, Cassation, the Ministry of Justice, and the Council of Magistrates.
It is clearly likely to be huge, and could ripple on for years. Knox & Sollecito, their parents, their lawyers, their PR, and others in Italy could find themselves caught up in the net.
Maybe even more in the US: Preston, Ciolino, Moore, Fischer, Heavey, Burleigh, Hampikian, and a dozen others might find diffamazione targets on their backs.
Dream on Pete, dream on 😛
Quote:
Sollecio and his shadow writer Gumbel already lost a diffamazione trial, in Florence, and Knox lost a calunnia trial in Perugia."
Just for the record: the "diffamazione trial, in Florence" ended with:"«perché il fatto non sussiste»." and we all know how the second Callunia trial against Knox ended...Isn't it interesting, that there are still people out there thinking that "True Justice for Meredith Kercher" can be achieved by lies about almost everyone involved? ... Just my 0,02 Euro
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:26 PM   #3815
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Just for the record:
Looks like Pete finally caught up
I just read it...."An English edition of the ultra-serious 360-page opus is in the works..."

The ultra-serious opus...bhhahahahah...I wonder if it talks about how Migs & Knox are buds now?. In all seriousness, I'll be surprised if this book is ever translated into English but I have to wonder why not, at least on one level. Migs seems to feel so misunderstood by Americans...you'd think he'd want us to get his side of things. And that goes for Guede too...wonder if his book will be translated into English. Doubt it.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:35 PM   #3816
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Just for the record:
Looks like Pete finally caught up
Dr Mignini’s 360-Page Blockbuster Book Due To Be Released in One Month

Excerpts:

"We have not seen it yet"...OK...
"Guede's Book" "hammmered home" something? How?
Dream on Pete, dream on ��

Just for the record: the "diffamazione trial, in Florence" ended with:"«perché il fatto non sussiste»." and we all know how the second Callunia trial against Knox ended...Isn't it interesting, that there are still people out there thinking that "True Justice for Meredith Kercher" can be achieved by lies about almost everyone involved? ... Just my 0,02 Euro
I wonder what article of the CPP allows this (a nonsensical claim that is contrary to CPP Articles 648 and 649):

"The President of the Republic and the Italian Supreme Court can each order a reopening of the case and a repeat of the final appeal."

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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:37 PM   #3817
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Regarding Mignini's "opus" article:

I noticed the "TJMK Main Posters" are given credit for this flight of fantasy. I don't blame the actual author for not taking credit and hiding behind that cover.

I followed their link "The new evidence is of course the small mountain which the Fifth Chambers chose to ignore" to a 2014 article that stated such jewels as these:
Quote:
Blood was also found ...possibly on a few items in Knox’s bedroom, and also in Luminol-revealed traces found on the floor in the corridor, in Knox’s bedroom and in Romanelli’s bedroom. (crime scene photos, Codispoti 2009)

2-09 Blood traces under the bed indicate someone was likely searching under the bed for something after the assault. (Codispoti 2009)

3-07 Ms. Kercher’s bra was removed after she was dead, as can be seen from blood speckles on the bra that were not found on her chest. (Micheli Motivation report, Codispoti 2009

5-05 A smaller shoeprint similar to Guede’s shoe type was found on the pillow found under Ms. Kercher. Police consultants estimate this was a female sized shoe.
There follows several statements about the footprints including "Five luminol-revealed" ones but no mention of the negative TMB tests. The bathmat footprint is identified as Sollecito's but no mention is made of Dr. Vinci's exclusion of him.

We don't have to wonder why author "Marcello" needs to resort to outright lies and half-truths.

Poor Slick Pete and whatever delusional "Main Posters" he still has left are still trying to be relevant. That bus left the station a long time ago.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:07 PM   #3818
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Mignini's book

Methos:

What's an 'ultra-serious' opus? (Someone else asked, but I still want to know.)

'All courts' did not rule that it was a three-person attack. Hellmann ruled in acquitting the pair that it was beyond to competence of his court to express an opinion on any other, potential suspects.

Pete has been promising dire consequences for years, 'Preston, Ciolino, Moore, Fischer, Heavey, Burleigh, Hampikian, and a dozen others might find diffamazione targets.' That's the biggest yawner of his claim. But it is a laugher that Pete still vacillates with the word 'might'. Use of that word means he's right either way!

Sollecito and his shadow writer Gumbel DID NOT LOSE THEIR DIFFAMAZIONE TRIAL! Pete has predicted that S & G would offer an apology within two weeks of the end of that trial! It's been more than two weeks! Thank you Methos for the link to a story about that, from the Italian press.

As usual, you beat me to a lot of this..... you really are the Library of Congress, Wikipedia, and a law library rolled into one.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:27 PM   #3819
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It’s laughable (but wholly predictable and in keeping with the man) that Mignini still believes he has a dog in the fight that is the Knox/Sollecito trial fiasco. Mignini’s investigation, as it pertained to Knox and Sollecito, was ripped apart and tossed out by his judicial superiors, complete with detailed damning judgements on how he and the police unlawfully pursued Knox/Sollecito using utterly unlawful and non-credible “evidence”.

Frankly, I genenuinely don’t know why anyone outside of the small sad band of travellers who still side with Mignini’s narrative, or also perhaps people researching Mignini’s psychiatric shortcomings, would even want to read his book. It’s gold-plate guaranteed to be a cauldron of self-serving bollocks, which will entirely rewrite history - setting the dogged, brilliant Holmes-esque Mignini, who was, of course always 100% right, up against the evil forces of US media and PR, plus a corrupt/inept appellate process.

Suffice it to say: not on my Christmas present list

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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:27 PM   #3820
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It’s laughable (but wholly predictable and in keeping with the man) that Mignini still believes he has a dog in the fight that is the Knox/Sollecito trial fiasco. Mignini’s investigation, as it pertained to Knox and Sollecito, was ripped apart and tossed out by his judicial superiors, complete with detailed damning judgements on how he and the police unlawfully pursued Knox/Sollecito using utterly untrainable and non-credible “evidence”.

Frankly, I genenuinely don’t know why anyone outside of the small sad band of travellers who still side with Mignini’s narrative, or also perhaps people researching Mignini’s psychiatric shortcomings, would even want to read is book. It’s gold-plate guaranteed to be a cauldron of self-serving bollocks, which will entirely rewrite history - setting the dogged, brilliant Holmes-esque Mignini, who was, of course always 100% right, up against the evil forces of US media and PR, plus a corrupt/inept appellate process.

Suffice it to say: not on my Christmas present list
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:10 AM   #3821
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Originally Posted by AnimalFriendly View Post
So "horrendous crimes" are sometimes committed by females, the gender that makes up half the human race. What a relevation.

Do the "annals of crimes" "show" where females direct 2 males, for whom no evidence exists of either male having so much as prior ever met the other male, to commit murder against another female...who barely knew either male? The "annals of crimes" must be chock full of examples of this so I'm sure you won't mind presenting just one other reasonably relevant example outside the scope of Kercher's murder. I'll wait.
There is a whole genre of 'senseless' teenage thrill killing.

Erin Caffey, who in prison shows off her beautiful singing voice, got her boyfriend to slaughter her entire family and then spent the rest of the day having sex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdGhc8IfviM

The 'Scream Murders'.

Kim Edwards got her boyfriend to kill her little sister and mother and they then spent the rest of the day eating ice-cream and watching Twilight.

The Memphis Three killings - one of them was the instigator.

I consider the murder of Meredith Kercher to be in the category of 'senseless thrill-seeking' by immature adults, although I would add the caveat that at age 23 and considerably older by about three four years than the others, Sollecito was surely old enough to distinguish between reality and fantasy and to have put a stop to it. Instead, he of all parties had zero motive other than as a totally anti-social cold evil game player. Even the cops described him as 'icy cold'.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:14 AM   #3822
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Why do you keep repeating this nonsense "..at the merits court" mantra as if it actually means something special in the context of a trial process which ends up in the appellate courts?

Either you (still, incredibly) don't (won't?) understand what it is that appellate courts actually do, why they do it, and why they trump what you fatuously keep referring to as "the merits court"...

... or you DO understand the appellate process - and that appellate courts have the (fair and just) power to strike out verdicts from lower courts if those lower courts have erred in law so badly that the lower-court verdict should have been different - and you're desperately trying to misdirect.

Which of those is it, Vixen? And what sad guilter site did you assimilate "merits courts" from, anyhow?
Rolling on the floor laughing my arse off and busting a gut! This poster has been posting for over seven years on this case and it is only now he has discovered what a merits court does. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! Thinks it is something that is of esoteric hermetic knowledge. LOL. Deary me.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:01 AM   #3823
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rolling on the floor laughing my arse off and busting a gut! This poster has been posting for over seven years on this case and it is only now he has discovered what a merits court does. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! Thinks it is something that is of esoteric hermetic knowledge. LOL. Deary me.

Point me to where I don’t know what a merits court is/does, Vixen. Well?

No, the issue here is that you don’t know what appellate courts do, and why they necessarily outrank merits courts. You appear still to harbour the delusion that when a lower court returns a verdict, this verdict - and the reasoning underpinning it - somehow retains validity and veracity once it’s been overturned by a higher appellate court.

LOL, LFMAO, PTSD, ITMA, ROFL, TWTWTW, UY, OAO.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:06 AM   #3824
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is a whole genre of 'senseless' teenage thrill killing.

Erin Caffey, who in prison shows off her beautiful singing voice, got her boyfriend to slaughter her entire family and then spent the rest of the day having sex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdGhc8IfviM

The 'Scream Murders'.

Kim Edwards got her boyfriend to kill her little sister and mother and they then spent the rest of the day eating ice-cream and watching Twilight.

The Memphis Three killings - one of them was the instigator.

I consider the murder of Meredith Kercher to be in the category of 'senseless thrill-seeking' by immature adults, although I would add the caveat that at age 23 and considerably older by about three four years than the others, Sollecito was surely old enough to distinguish between reality and fantasy and to have put a stop to it. Instead, he of all parties had zero motive other than as a totally anti-social cold evil game player. Even the cops described him as 'icy cold'.

Yeah, I remember those examples too, Vixen. If I’m not mistaken, in both instances the boyfriend and girlfriend had known each other for less than a week before the murders; and I believe that in both instances the boyfriend and girlfriend teamed up for the killing with a third person with whom the girlfriend had never made more than a brief nodding acquaintance, and whom the boyfriend had never met before in his life.

Wow. Now I think about it, the circumstances and dynamics really do translate across, don’t they??
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:19 AM   #3825
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Oh and as a reminder, Vixen: there was/is not one single piece of credible, reliable evidence of Knox’s or Sollecito’s participation in the Kercher murder. Guede committed the crime all by himself. And the verdicts/MRs of the Massei and Nencini courts are now entirely invalidated and expunged.

But you knew all that, didn’t you? Right? I mean, you’ve been following this case very closely for a very long time, and we have no reason to doubt your claims regarding your superior research and analytical talents. Right? Obviously anyone with superior research and analytical skills (though frankly, even someone with distinctly average research and analytical skills) would be bound to know all this. Right?
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:33 AM   #3826
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh dear. You just don't understand the law, the facts of this case, and the truth of the matter, do you? And I suspect that, by this point, you never will. Just as a small, rapidly diminishing group of nutters will insist until their dying day that the US Government brought down the Twin Towers (and that they have the evidence to "prove" it), or some other nutters in a similar sad small group will insist until their dying day that the Moon landings were faked on a Hollywood sound stage (and that they have the evidence to "prove" it).

Fortunately, your abject inability to analyse this case properly - on either a judicial or evidence basis - is utterly immaterial. Knox and Sollecito are correctly acquitted and absolved, Guede correctly stands guilty of an assault/murder that he carried out all by himself. Mignini is correct discredited. Italian criminal justice is correctly discredited. The guilter nutters are correctly discredited. All good.
Stop trying to derail this into a discussion of well-known conspiracy groups re 9/1 and the Moon landing. This has absolutely nothing to do with them.

If anyone has a conspiracy theory, it is the PIP who have a zealous faith-based belief that it is not possible for Knox to have killed anyone, being as she is a nice American, just like themselves or their own daughter. We have to look for a vagrant whose life is worthless, instead.

The fact is, anyone who has read the court documents and followed the case from Day One of the murder, as I have knows the truth of the matter beyond reasonable doubt. Yes, criminal trial courts are not 100% given the secretive nature of serious crime but it is the best mechanism we have for ascertaining the facts of what happened leading up to the crime, its duration, the aftermath and the perpetrator/s if apprehended. The latter have the fullest opportunity of defending themselves at every step of the way, with the clear advantage of knowing they have a 3:1 chance of being acquitted as juries lean in their favour. The more serious the crime, the more loath jouries are to find a verdict of guilty, especially if it involves a Death Penalty. There should be no room for sentimental pity and romanticism. Mitigation and militation should come after the verdict and only be taken into account during sentencing. Justice should be equal for everyman, not just ones that people have sentimental feelings towards.

So arguing with someone who comes from a zealot's position is a futile one because zealotry is based on a faith-based blind belief and thus your viewpoint is the Conspiracy Theory one, which revolves around a belief that Mignini was the puppeteer who managed to control all of the cops, the judges and the courts. That he had some evil plot to 'get the American girl' which involved 'coercively interrogating her boyfriend' to force him into nailing her (as if he himself was innocent and only gallantly standing by her). It also involves bewitching the hugely talented Massei and stickler for protocol Nencini. All are under his spell is your Conspiracy Theory.

This all started from Conspiracy theorist Doug Preston who as a novellist thought he could solve the Monster of Florence crime and ended up being kicked out of Italy by Prosecutor Mignini for trying to interfere with justice. So Preston, with a massive grudge against Mignini, has been smearing him and trashing Mignini at every possible opportunity, including launching Friends of Amanda Knox and trying to make out 'Mignini hates Americans and is trying to frame her!'

It is your choice, you can believe in a ridiculous fantasy or you can own up to the cold truth of the matter.

Real life criminal cases are dull and boring. They are carefully managed and scheduled. They do not involve people bursting through the court room door at the last minute, Perry Mason-style, shouting, 'Stop the court! I have new evidence re the pillow that will change evverything!!!'

Live in the real world and ditch Fox News and People magazine.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:35 AM   #3827
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Nope. You have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know where you got the lens you're reading the Marasca MR through, but I'd take it back for a refund and lodge a complaint - because that lens is presenting you with a view of the report that is wildly different from the truth of the report.

Why are you doing this at this point, Vixen? Anyone can read the Marasca MR report - even a seven-year-old - and see clearly the true reasons why that panel threw out the convictions for good (and at the same time laid into the disgraceful lack of application of law exhibited by the lower courts). I'll give you a clue: the substance of the acquittals had nothing whatsoever to do with "press interference", and the references to "investigative amnesia" were a (fully correct) severe criticism of the disgusting way in which Mignini and the police carried out the investigation into Knox and Sollecito.

Oh and you STILL don't understand what it means - and what it doesn't mean - to be acquitted due to insufficient evidence. Once again: there's plenty of material available, on jurisprudence in general, and on the Italian criminal justice system in particular. Either would be useful in educating you on this matter. Plus, entirely unsurprisingly, you've still failed to supply this thread with any reliable evidence to support your (incorrect and fatuous) claim that "insufficient evidence" acquittals are a) extremely rare in Italian lower or appellate court verdicts, and b) are mainly employed in Italy as some sort of sleight-of-hand to get corrupt politicians/businessmen off the hook.

Are you going to supply that evidence, Vixen? Or, as usual, are you not going to? I mean, I can tell you now that you'll waste your time looking for (reliable) evidence on the matter, because your claim is flat wrong. It'll still be entertaining to watch you try, though. So, let's see your evidence, eh?

It was fully discussed way back in 2016. Try here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post11182025
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:37 AM   #3828
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Once more with (no) feeling: please educate yourself on coercive false statements, and the role of law enforcement officers in eliciting coerced false statements. As you've now been told many times, there's plenty of high-quality material available online about this matter, as well as videos of it taking place in front of your eyes. It's noteworthy though that you choose to employ ridiculous hyperbole you your (personal, and incorrect) interpretation of how a coerced false statement is elicited.

One more thing: just to help you further, try looking at the version of events Sollecito eventually gave the police (after unlawful coercion), and see now closely it matched the factual events of the previous evening/night (ie the evening/night of 31st October/1st November). It's a 100% match, Vixen. Sollecito was coerced into mixing up the two dates, because he was being threatened by the police with serious repercussions if he didn't stop "covering up" for Knox, and because he was being instructed by the police that they (the police) knew for certain that Knox had been present at the murder.

Do some (proper) research, Vixen.
What a load of codswallop.

Sollecito lied to the police three times and not once has he retracted his testimony Knox was out without him until 1:00.

Nor did he take the witness box to defend himself or explain why he told a pack of lies.

An innocent person simply does not behave like that.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:39 AM   #3829
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
LOL no idea whatsoever. Even when the statistics are literally being spoon-fed to you.....
You really do not understand how a criminal law court works do you?


Judges can't just do what they like, as you appear to believe!
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:41 AM   #3830
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Pick a lane. Was (a) AK trying to cover for Guede or (b) to point the police towards him? Choose (a) or (b).
Er, obviously Knox didn't realise police had Guede's DNA on the police database as an immigrant. She thought she could just point to an outsider - one that did not live at the cottage - as the perpetrator, to detract police from herself.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:47 AM   #3831
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Too bad it has been struck down. Nowhere in Nencini's motivations report does he question Hellmann's right to appoint independent experts, like Conti and Vecchiotti.

What Nencini tries to argue, even in conceding that C & V are experts in their own right, is that Nencini knows more about forensic DNA analysis than the experts do.

Or as Marasca-Bruno wrote in 2015, while exonerating the pair, while trying to explain the 'conflict' of findings of the scientific community over against 'the primacy of law and .... in deference to the rules of criminal procedure itself':


Nencini, with no formal training in forensic genetics, set himself up as a referee between Stefanoni and C&V, and on every issue chose Stefanoni - whose findings, by the way, M-B called 'in violation of international protocols'.

It was that process that Nencini chose, to have the judge make highly technical scientific decisions, which M-B said was anachronistic

While at the same time conceding that C&V were experts, and duly and legally appointed by Hellmann to review Stefanoni's work.
Chiefi SC said was that Hellman failed to justify why he brought in Vecchiotti & Conti, Vecchiotti being well-known as dishonest and corrupt and lacking impartiality, with her belief she needed to protect murderers from conviction. She's another Peter Gill who thought she could bend justice.

[quote]From Wikipedia (google translate) https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delitto_dell%27Olgiata
'The Civil Court of Rome on 21.04.2016 ruling at first instance sentenced the technical consultants of Pascali office Vicenzo Lorenzo, Arbarello Paul and Carla Vecchiotti for negligence in the performance of examinations of exhibits on the murder of the Countess, liquidating damages total of more than EUR 150,000 attributed, at the request of close relatives of the countess, the Foundation Alberica Filo della Torre in order to be used in charitable activities.'


Absolutely bent and as corrupt as hell. She even colluded with the defence in bringing out a CD when she was supposed to be independent. She only asked for Hellmann's required permission in retrospect, after being caught red-handed by the Carabinieri conspiring with the defence.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:49 AM   #3832
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
M-B hardly used flowery faux-tactful language when they savaged Nencini:



8. Then in close succession the points of patent logical inconsistency in the
fabric of the reasoning of the challenged ruling are identified.

8.1. An element of evidence of unchallengeable relevance - for the reasons
explained hereinafter - is represented by the total absence of biological traces
attributable with certainty to the two defendants in the murder room or on the body of the victim, whereas, instead, abundant traces surely attributable to Guede have been found.
This was an insurmountable monolithic barrier on the path taken by the factfinding judge to arrive at the conviction of the present defendants, already acquitted previously for the murder by the Court of Appeals of Perugia.





I could go on quoting M-B's detailed dismantling Nencini, but I think they summed it up well:

Sitting in the armchairs. As dictated by mafia-lover Bongiorno and I believe Bruno had a bit of a reputation in that respect, too.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:49 AM   #3833
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You really do not understand how a criminal law court works do you?


Judges can't just do what they like, as you appear to believe!

Your attempts to feed my words back to me are getting rather sad.

But since you ask: yes, I know precisely how criminal courts work. And I know how appellate courts work. And I know that when an appellate court tears apart the verdict and reasoning of one or more lower courts, pointing out in great detail the grotesque errors and unlawfulness in the investigation and in the ways in which those courts arrived at their verdicts….. it means that whatever those lower courts decided, and why they arrived at those decisions, ain’t worth a damn.

It would well behove you to educate yourself sufficiently in a) this case, and b) the criminal justice system (including the function of, and reason for, the appellate system) before attempting to educate others. Just sayin’
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:50 AM   #3834
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Here's the thing that makes Vixen's whole comment so ridiculous - if Amanda had been with Guede, the last thing Amanda would want would be for the police to figure out his involvement because surely his implicating her would be the next thing to happen. So to suggest she was trying to point the police towards Guede is in itself rather idiotic. That would be the last thing she'd want to do.
Not if she didn't realise his DNA would identify him.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:50 AM   #3835
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
The notion that Amanda fingered Lumumba knowing that the cops would figure out that he was not involved and then turn their attention to Guede is batcrap crazy.
Only to someone failing in logic.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:50 AM   #3836
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sitting in the armchairs. As dictated by mafia-lover Bongiorno and I believe Bruno had a bit of a reputation in that respect, too.

Are you truly deaf to the crazy conspiracy theorising you’re apparently reaching for nowadays?
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:51 AM   #3837
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She thought she could just point to an outsider - one that did not live at the cottage - as the perpetrator, to detract police from herself.
And that's why she said she was in the kitchen, one room over from the "outsider", cowering & covering her ears? This was supposed to "detract" police? And it's "distract" not detract.

I guess she also thought the police wouldn't be "detracted" by her having let the outsider in the door. Or maybe the police were supposed to think Kercher let him in. It's hard to make any real sense of this blather.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:54 AM   #3838
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Another example of Massei speculating without any supporting evidence in order to support the kitchen knife as the murder weapon is the explanation of how that knife got to the cottage when the murder was not pre-meditated. To claim that a sharp, pointed, foot-long knife with an exposed blade of just under 9 inches would be carried around in Knox's bag "for protection" at Sollecito's insistence is beyond ludicrous. It becomes even more irrational when you consider that RS had much more appropriately sized and safe knives in his possession that he could have lent her. Add to that the fact that the cloth bag showed zero evidence of having a knife of any kind in it: no cuts, no damage. If the murder were spontaneous as Massei concluded, the murderer would have taken one of the knives from the cottage kitchen. But he had to find a way for Sollecito's kitchen knife to be in the cottage that night, so the "knife for protection in Knox's bag" had to be invented.

So the pair turned off their phones just before their escapade into 'extreme sensations', with Sollecito the collector of fancy knives costing hundreds of Euros. Of course they went armed with knives. Witness Kokomani came across them and said so in his police witness statement.

All those knife flicks on Mez' body. Can't possibly have been done by Knife Boy, eh?
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:55 AM   #3839
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
There is a massive elephant in the room which the courts ignored and that was the characteristics of the knife would have made it impossible for the knife to have been used to stab Meredith or contain DNA.

The knife was picked at random with no other knives taken from Raffaele’s kitchen or the cottage. Is it credible a knife collected under these circumstances was the murder weapon.
The knife didn’t match a bloody imprint on the bed.
The knife was too large to have caused the two smaller wounds.
There was bruising on the fatal wound which indicated the knife had gone all the way in. The length of the fatal wound was 8 cm whilst the length of the knife was 17 cm which indicated the knife couldn’t have caused the larger wound.
The knife didn’t have any blood or human biological material on it.
The defence had no objection to the knife being opened while the prosecution didn’t want the knife opened.

Numerous questions are raised by the use of the knife as evidence

1) If the prosecution had a mountain of solid evidence and a slam dunk case, why did the prosecution have to resort to using evidence totally lacking credibility and full of holes such as the knife and 15 years later PGP have to argue their case on this evidence. If the prosecution had such a solid case, why is that with six years to argue their case a knife whose characteristics would have made it physically impossible to have been used to stab Meredith or contain DNA and has zero credibility is the best evidence the prosecution can come up with?

2)Vixen constantly boasts about how fair the Massei and Nencini courts were. How can it be fair to convict someone on the basis of evidence with no credibility full of holes such as the knife? How can it be fair to convict someone on the basis of DNA which can't exist?

3)Stefanoni had to resort to lying, suppressing evidence and committing fraud which indicated there was no valid DNA on the knife which was completely ignored by all the courts. In view of this how can the supposed DNA on the knife be used as evidence to convict someone? How can the Massei and Nencini courts be fair when the numerous abuses and corruption of the prosecution were ignored?

4) How can it be fair to convict someone on the basis of supposed DNA on the knife when Vixen's idol Stefanoni can't answer a basic question such as how much DNA was on the knife? Would it be acceptable to convict someone of drink driving when the police can't tell what the blood alcohol level was?

5) Vixen constantly bangs on about Amanda and Raffaele telling numerous lies. Defendants resort to lying to explain away damming evidence. Why would Amand and Raffaele need to lie to explain away evidence with no credibility such as the knife?

Read the court documents and the trial transcripts and you'll find out!
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:56 AM   #3840
LondonJohn
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Of course the further irony here - which Vixen clearly cannot see - is that if the Italian criminal justice system truly were so riddled with corruption, mafia string-pulling, graft and bribery - from the very highest court in the land on downwards…. then Italy should rightfully be considered a country in which nobody could get a fair trial.

<fx: the finest analytical mind on this thread struggles to compute>
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