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Tags gun control , shooting incidents

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Old 25th May 2022, 09:35 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This assumes that a majority held Dem Senate would even pass such laws and not be stymied by conservatives within their own party, which is a recurring problem.

Dems could absolutely make an issue of this. Try to pass a bill and do a roll call vote and get people (Republican and Democrats) on the record. Make a pledge to do something should they ever hit some majority threshold.

The party always makes vague statements about what could happen if only the people voted a bit harder, but the lack of specifics and accountability is pretty glaring.
Well, there sure as hell aren't any Republicans who will do it, so let's elect Democrats until we get a majority who will.

On a personal note, I want people to know that I am not enamored of the Democratic party. But if I'm going to get **** on by a donkey or an elephant, the donkey isn't as bad.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:39 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I've seen surveys that suggest that about 40% of U.S. households own at least one gun. Allowing that some percentage of them are not kooks, I'm willing to say that the number of U.S. citizens who are kooks is at least 1 in 4. I refuse to go any lower.

As far as why, my take, in short, is that it's a combination of "frontier spirit," racism, old-time religion, and fear stoked by entities that have political and economic reasons. I'm sure other reasons could be added. A fuller discussion would require its own thread.

In 2000 I went to Tennessee to spend Thanksgiving with a friend - she had invited a bunch of people from all over to spend several days with her. One of the first things that happened was a safety tour of her small house, pointing out potential hazards. Possibly required under her insurance policy, I didn't think to ask.

One of the hazards she pointed out (or rather pointed out the location of, I didn't actually see the gun) was a rifle or a shotgun hidden behind either her bed or the cabinet beside her bed.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 25th May 2022 at 10:09 AM. Reason: It was 2000, not 2001.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:40 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How did Australia do it?
I do not know enough about Australian gun control to be able to say for any certainty. I suspect they did not have anything like the amount of guns the USA has, far more of those guns were licenced so that the authorities knew who had guns and the gun culture is not so strong, that after the Port Arthur massacre, people were willing to give up guns.

I do know that the UK had its guns well under control already, with strict licensing, before Hungerford and then Dunblane. It was an easy enough process to remove mass fire automatic and then handguns from circulation, because we knew exactly who had what gun. Add that to the UK gun culture, which is primarily one of "why does anyone need a gun?" and it is easy to see how the UK is pushing an open door when it comes to gun control.

I would image Australia is somewhere between the UK and USA, but closer to the USA in terms of already have many of its guns under control and a culture where giving up guns is seen as a solution to mass shootings.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:40 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Well, there sure as hell aren't any Republicans who will do it, so let's elect Democrats until we get a majority who will.

On a personal note, I want people to know that I am not enamored of the Democratic party. But if I'm going to get **** on by a donkey or an elephant, the donkey isn't as bad.
The problem is that credibility matters when making these kinds of promises, and time and time again the Democrats have shown that even in moments where they have opportunity to act (thanks to people voting blue), they'll trip over their own feet because members within their party buck the party line.

It's a glaring comparison to the Republican who have the patience and discipline to keep their coalition on message and focused to the point where they can spend decades with their nose to the grindstone to get broadly popular rights rolled back. Meanwhile Democrats are endlessly galloping to the right seeking out the mythical "centrist swing voter" to the point that their party line is totally incomprehensible and self-contradictory.

ETA: This opinion piece says it much clearer. Specificity is important, not just vague promises:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...tion-shooting/

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 25th May 2022 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:47 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
In 2001 I went to Tennessee to spend Thanksgiving with a friend - she had invited a bunch of people from all over to spend several days with her. One of the first things that happened was a safety tour of her small house, pointing out potential hazards. Possibly required under her insurance policy, I didn't think to ask.

One of the hazards she pointed out (or rather pointed out the location of, I didn't actually see the gun) was a rifle or a shotgun hidden behind either her bed or the cabinet beside her bed.
If this was a rural area, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a rifle or shotgun; bears and other wildlife can be dangerous. You also may be in an area where it would take some time for police to reach you in the event of a burglary or home invasion.

I am not opposed to possessing single-shot rifles, shotguns and some types of handguns. I am opposed to:

1. High powered, high capacity guns. These should only be available for legitimate military purposes, and maybe some police purposes.

2. People with a history of felonies and/or mental illness possessing any kind of gun.

3. People being able to own any kind of gun without a permit and without state and national registry, and without proper training.
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Last edited by shemp; 25th May 2022 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:03 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
King Manchin has spoken



https://www.businessinsider.com/manc...hooting-2022-5

So that's a wrap. See yall later to do the same dance after the next schoolhouse massacre.
Now is not the time.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:05 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Now is not the time.
Lol it's exactly the time.

The notion that politics is some gentlemanly sport for leisure and not, ya know, about passing policy to meet the needs of a society is a unique form of mental illness that seemingly only plagues do-nothing centrists.

Politicians aren't priests, they aren't our mommy and daddy, and they aren't our friends. We don't need their kind words and platitudes in response to tragedy, we need them to use the power vested in them to take action. it's literally why their jobs exist.

There's no virtue to pissing away opportunity and letting your voting base become more disaffected.

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Old 25th May 2022, 10:08 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Lol it's exactly the time.

The notion that politics is some gentlemanly sport for leisure and not, ya know, about passing policy to meet the needs of a society is a unique form of mental illness that seemingly only plagues do-nothing centrists.

Politicians aren't priests, they aren't our mommy and daddy, and they aren't our friends. We don't need their kind words and platitudes in response to tragedy, we need them to use the power vested in them to take action. it's literally why their jobs exist.

There's no virtue to pissing away opportunity and letting your voting base become more disaffected.
Now is not the time, don't use this tragedy to score political points, let's look at it later in a more rational way.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:09 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Now is not the time, don't use this tragedy to score political points, let's look at it later in a more rational way.
Absolute loser mentality.

Imagine telling Australians that "now is not the time" after the Port Arthur massacre. What a joke.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:13 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
If this was a rural area, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a rifle or shotgun; bears and other wildlife can be dangerous. You also may be in an area where it would take some time for police to reach you in the event of a burglary or home invasion.

It was a very ordinary new-build suburban street in Hendersonville. The house was an end-terrace. Modern houses, almost "urban sprawl". I really don't see wildlife as an issue. I also don't think police access was likely to be an issue.

The gun was right beside her bed, not locked away in a safe place. In a house absolutely surrounded by neighbours. I can't see any reason for it being a difficult place for police to reach.

Burglaries happen everywhere. Women with lethal firearms within reach of their beds, not so much.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:14 AM   #291
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Now is the time. Pile on everything to 2022 election
-Abortion
-Voting rights
-gun violence
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:14 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Absolute loser mentality.

Imagine telling Australians that "now is not the time" after the Port Arthur massacre. What a joke.
You can't make decisions until after the funerals and the police investigation.
Then, with all the facts assembled a consensus can be reached free of the emotion of the event.

Of course by then there will have been another massacre and the clock will reset.


I'm just following the script.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:15 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You can't make decisions until after the funerals and the police investigation.
Then, with all the facts assembled a consensus can be reached free of the emotion of the event.

Of course by then there will have been another massacre and the clock will reset.


I'm just following the script.
I see that I have ate the onion
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:17 AM   #294
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I note again Chris Rock's solution: Make bullets (yeah, I know a bullet is part of a cartridge) cost $5,000 each (and this was some years ago; he may be suggesting a higher price today). Nothing in the Constitution says anything about "keeping and bearing" bullets. Threats would go like this:

"I'm gonna kill you! I'm gonna cap your ass! I'm gonna sell my car and get a second job and save all my money, and as soon as I can afford my bullet you better run!"

Seriously, it might be tough to limit firearms, but I would think cartridges could be regulated like explosive devices, which are severely restricted.

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Old 25th May 2022, 10:28 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I do not know enough about Australian gun control to be able to say for any certainty. I suspect they did not have anything like the amount of guns the USA has, far more of those guns were licenced so that the authorities knew who had guns and the gun culture is not so strong, that after the Port Arthur massacre, people were willing to give up guns.

I do know that the UK had its guns well under control already, with strict licensing, before Hungerford and then Dunblane. It was an easy enough process to remove mass fire automatic and then handguns from circulation, because we knew exactly who had what gun. Add that to the UK gun culture, which is primarily one of "why does anyone need a gun?" and it is easy to see how the UK is pushing an open door when it comes to gun control.

I would image Australia is somewhere between the UK and USA, but closer to the USA in terms of already have many of its guns under control and a culture where giving up guns is seen as a solution to mass shootings.

There has been a huge change though, over a substantial period. I remember reading a children's book written in (I think) the early 20th century (could have been the late 19th) for a reading group. In that book a young boy scraped together all the money he could to buy a gun. (This was intended as assistance to an adult male fugitive he was sheltering, but the gun shop didn't know that.) He didn't have enough for what he wanted and the gun shop owner took pity on this kid who had obviously emptied his piggy bank and let him have something suitable at a knock-down price. The kid exited the shop with the gun. I don't think he even had to give his name.

It was written as if this was entirely normal and nothing out of the ordinary. Somehow we got from there to here.

I have read other literature that suggests the problem in the USA is the mentality of the people, not gun ownership and availability as such. They point to countries like Canada and Switzerland where people are apparently armed to the teeth, but this sort of thing happens rarely if at all.

But it's not just Mericans, it happened in Australia and in Britain too. And people tend to be people wherever they are. There's something uniquely toxic about the mixture in America and I don't entirely know why.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:36 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I do not know enough about Australian gun control to be able to say for any certainty. I suspect they did not have anything like the amount of guns the USA has, far more of those guns were licenced so that the authorities knew who had guns and the gun culture is not so strong, that after the Port Arthur massacre, people were willing to give up guns.

I do know that the UK had its guns well under control already, with strict licensing, before Hungerford and then Dunblane. It was an easy enough process to remove mass fire automatic and then handguns from circulation, because we knew exactly who had what gun. Add that to the UK gun culture, which is primarily one of "why does anyone need a gun?" and it is easy to see how the UK is pushing an open door when it comes to gun control.

I would image Australia is somewhere between the UK and USA, but closer to the USA in terms of already have many of its guns under control and a culture where giving up guns is seen as a solution to mass shootings.
I remember pointing out that prior to the Dunblane restrictions there were just over 3 million people legally owning guns in the UK, and after the changes there were still just over 3 million people legally owning guns. The post-Dunblane changes took away about 50,000 guns.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:42 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I remember pointing out that prior to the Dunblane restrictions there were just over 3 million people legally owning guns in the UK, and after the changes there were still just over 3 million people legally owning guns. The post-Dunblane changes took away about 50,000 guns.
At least in the US, the mid 90's were a time of pretty radical change within the shooting community. There was definitely a shift away from "sporting arms" into more fascination with tactical and military weapons.

The modern day NRA and shooting culture is a far cry from the fudds in hunter orange of yesteryear.

The fact that such restrictions didn't actually take that many guns away just shows how popular certain types of weapons hadn't become yet. Meanwhile, in the US, semi-auto rifles and pistols have been selling like hotcakes for decades.

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Old 25th May 2022, 10:44 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I remember pointing out that prior to the Dunblane restrictions there were just over 3 million people legally owning guns in the UK, and after the changes there were still just over 3 million people legally owning guns. The post-Dunblane changes took away about 50,000 guns.
I note that "legally owning guns" means something different in the UK than in the U.S. As I understand it, handguns are so tightly restricted as to be effectively banned, and licensing, registration, background checks, police interviews and other measures are imposed on every owner of rifles and shotguns, self-defense is not a valid reason for possession, and there are no AR15s and other semi-automatics. In the U.S., pretty much anybody other than convicted felons can legally get any kind of firearm short of a machine gun.

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Old 25th May 2022, 10:45 AM   #299
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Gov. Abbott is on TV now holding forth about how the solution to mass killings is improved mental health services.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:46 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Gov. Abbott is on TV now holding forth about how the solution to mass killings is improved mental health services.
Wow, wouldn't have thought a Republican would have come out in support for free medical care.

Surely this is what he means, right?
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:49 AM   #301
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Beto O'Rourke just tried to confront Abbott. Police threw him out.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:50 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Wow, wouldn't have thought a Republican would have come out in support for free medical care.

Surely this is what he means, right?
Well, he didn't say anything about free.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:50 AM   #303
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Some gun control advocates lack the understanding of how AR-15s (and fire arms in general) work to the degree that they can't figure out that there's no need to ban the weapon. What they want could be achieved by banning high cap mags.

This gets society around the positively horrific scenario in which the cops are sent out to confiscate bubba's rifle. Talk about blood in the streets!

In this scenario mags beyond ten rounds would be illegal. if you have one and turn it in you get voucher for a five or ten round mag. If you don't turn it in the cops are going to assume you smashed it to bits with a sledge hammer.

But the cops ain't searching your house because they saw an old picture of you at a 3 gun match with a 30 round mag.

If you show up in public or at the range with a high cap mag you are subject to it being confiscated and you getting fined.

Just saying. . .

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Last edited by arayder; 25th May 2022 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:54 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
....
If you show up in public or at the range with a high cap mag you are subject to it being confiscated and you getting fined.

Just saying. . .
Except the penalty should be a criminal conviction and mandatory jail time
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:54 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Wow, wouldn't have thought a Republican would have come out in support for free medical care.

Surely this is what he means, right?
I'm going to guess that if he follows through, it will targeted towards getting mental health care from faith-based sources - preferably operating in schools.

Ya just gotta get good with God. Jesus will cleanse your soul of the urge to kill everyone.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:58 AM   #306
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Heh. O'Rourke got pulled away by police for yelling at Abbott during the press conference.
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:03 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Gov. Abbott is on TV now holding forth about how the solution to mass killings is improved mental health services.

This is not wholly wrong. A part of me wonders what sort of life any lad can have had when as soon as he turns eighteen he buys weapons and kills a bunch of kids in an effective "suicide by cop". Part of me is actually sorry for him.

It's a bit like the "Swiss cheese strategy" against covid. No one thing works, but if you do all the possible things, added together you have enough to make a difference. Helping troubled young people, helping troubled families in the hope that their young people don't grow up to be troubled, surely that's part of the mix?
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:04 AM   #308
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Yeah, Beto O’Rourke says “It’s on you!” And was told “it’s on ******** like you!” And “you sick son of a bitch!” By the one of the guys dressed up like a cowboy.

https://twitter.com/therecount/statu...933214721?s=21
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:07 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Except the penalty should be a criminal conviction and mandatory jail time
We could phase out the voucher program. After a certain date you're no longer going to get a voucher for an old high cap mag. For a while after that you can just turn it in with no penalty. Along the way there'd be allowances for people who find an old high cap mag in grandpa's gun safe after it dies.

I suppose the penalties could be phased in too.

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Old 25th May 2022, 11:08 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This is not wholly wrong. A part of me wonders what sort of life any lad can have had when as soon as he turns eighteen he buys weapons and kills a bunch of kids in an effective "suicide by cop". Part of me is actually sorry for him.

It's a bit like the "Swiss cheese strategy" against covid. No one thing works, but if you do all the possible things, added together you have enough to make a difference. Helping troubled young people, helping troubled families in the hope that their young people don't grow up to be troubled, surely that's part of the mix?
No. American isn't an outlier in mental illness but it is one in gun violence.

This discussion always happens as if every other 1st world country hasn't figured this out.
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:08 AM   #311
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It was a very ordinary new-build suburban street in Hendersonville. The house was an end-terrace. Modern houses, almost "urban sprawl". I really don't see wildlife as an issue. I also don't think police access was likely to be an issue.

The gun was right beside her bed, not locked away in a safe place. In a house absolutely surrounded by neighbours. I can't see any reason for it being a difficult place for police to reach.

Burglaries happen everywhere. Women with lethal firearms within reach of their beds, not so much.
On visiting relatives in a middle class town in CT in 1986, I was left on my one day when they went to work. I told them I planned to walk to the local shops for a look around. I was told not to, due to some home invasions making the local police and neighbours somewhat twitchy.

I then made the mistake of leaving the back door open, which was spotted by a neighbour, who came to investigate. I do know if he was armed, but thankfully he shouted into the house "whose there?" and he accepted my answer.

My relatives, who kept a handgun and shot gun in their bedroom, offered me the handgun to keep in my room, for my safety!

Guns were normalised to an amazing extent and the nearest equivalent, I can think of, is the Troubles in NI. Relatives there said it was normal to see guns and the army and my sister-in-law's uncle still has bulletproof windows in his house and has a handgun for personal protection.
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:11 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, he didn't say anything about free.
The US has some of the best mental health care in the world already. Quality was never the problem, it's that people who need it often can't get it.
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:11 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This is not wholly wrong. A part of me wonders what sort of life any lad can have had when as soon as he turns eighteen he buys weapons and kills a bunch of kids in an effective "suicide by cop". Part of me is actually sorry for him.

It's a bit like the "Swiss cheese strategy" against covid. No one thing works, but if you do all the possible things, added together you have enough to make a difference. Helping troubled young people, helping troubled families in the hope that their young people don't grow up to be troubled, surely that's part of the mix?
Literally the only “solutions” they will come up with are “thoughts and prayers”, some racist rhetoric about “closing the border” despite the perpetrator not being an immigrant and being more holy and not playing computer games. I very much doubt they have any plans to improve healthcare or make it freely a available to those in need. You have pay big money for healthcare. In other words, say a bunch of platitudes until it all blows over then at the campaign claim that Democrats are harming school children by making them wear masks and “grooming” them to being LGBT.

They’ll probably get re-elected just in time for the next power outage when they escaped to Mexico by private plane.
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:15 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I remember pointing out that prior to the Dunblane restrictions there were just over 3 million people legally owning guns in the UK, and after the changes there were still just over 3 million people legally owning guns. The post-Dunblane changes took away about 50,000 guns.
I do not think the post Hillsborough and Dunblane restrictions on type of firearm have made any difference. As Cumbria and Plymouth have shown, it is still possible to kill many people with the types still allowed.

Far more important are;

1 - licensing to ensure those who have guns are highly unlikely to misuse them
2 - limit supply of guns to those not suitable.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ifle-gun-trade

As reported April this year;

"No London shooting deaths in six months as police say gun trade stifled
Met says drug gangs in capital finding it difficult to source and move around firearms"
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:15 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
On visiting relatives in a middle class town in CT in 1986, I was left on my one day when they went to work. I told them I planned to walk to the local shops for a look around. I was told not to, due to some home invasions making the local police and neighbours somewhat twitchy.

I then made the mistake of leaving the back door open, which was spotted by a neighbour, who came to investigate. I do know if he was armed, but thankfully he shouted into the house "whose there?" and he accepted my answer.

My relatives, who kept a handgun and shot gun in their bedroom, offered me the handgun to keep in my room, for my safety!

Guns were normalised to an amazing extent and the nearest equivalent, I can think of, is the Troubles in NI. Relatives there said it was normal to see guns and the army and my sister-in-law's uncle still has bulletproof windows in his house and has a handgun for personal protection.

It's a whole other world.
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:20 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I remember pointing out that prior to the Dunblane restrictions there were just over 3 million people legally owning guns in the UK, and after the changes there were still just over 3 million people legally owning guns. The post-Dunblane changes took away about 50,000 guns.
Dunblane removed handguns.

Hungerford removed all semi automatics apart from .22 rimfire.

By far the vast majority of guns in the UK are shotguns.
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:22 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Then. what. is. your. point besides. dogwhistles?
I don't see a problem with bringing up the shootings that are caused by black people. The persons motives for doing so shouldn't be the issue here. What should be the issue is why are these mass shootings happening. You cannot begin to rectify the cause if you refuse to even discuss where the problems lie.

I'm not in the US but if it is fact that the majority of mass shootings are carried by black people then this needs to be acknowledged. Stat sites that do not even list these murders are disingenuous. A gang banger that has blown away 5 of his rivals in one sitting is just as relevant as the white guy wandering into a church and executing 5 of the parishioners.

I find it just as concerning that black people are (apparently) responsible for the majority of mass murders as white people are responsible for the majority of school shootings.

Although my personal feeling is the actual root cause behind the majority of this isn't skin colour, but the easy access to guns and the ultra partisan politics you guys have in the US that seem to pretty much encourage the hate.
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:22 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Beto O'Rourke just tried to confront Abbott. Police threw him out.
Should probably count himself lucky he wasn't shot.
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:22 AM   #319
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I do not think the post Hillsborough and Dunblane restrictions on type of firearm have made any difference. As Cumbria and Plymouth have shown, it is still possible to kill many people with the types still allowed.

Far more important are;

1 - licensing to ensure those who have guns are highly unlikely to misuse them
2 - limit supply of guns to those not suitable.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ifle-gun-trade

As reported April this year;

"No London shooting deaths in six months as police say gun trade stifled
Met says drug gangs in capital finding it difficult to source and move around firearms"
Hungerford
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Old 25th May 2022, 11:22 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Some gun control advocates lack the understanding of how AR-15s (and fire arms in general) work to the degree that they can't figure out that there's no need to ban the weapon. What they want could be achieved by banning high cap mags.

This gets society around the positively horrific scenario in which the cops are sent out to confiscate bubba's rifle. Talk about blood in the streets!

In this scenario mags beyond ten rounds would be illegal. if you have one and turn it in you get voucher for a five or ten round mag. If you don't turn it in the cops are going to assume you smashed it to bits with a sledge hammer.

But the cops ain't searching your house because they saw an old picture of you at a 3 gun match with a 30 round mag.

If you show up in public or at the range with a high cap mag you are subject to it being confiscated and you getting fined.

Just saying. . .

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so people just hide them under the bed. or practice until they can change mags real quick.
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