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Old 5th September 2022, 04:57 AM   #201
Ethan Thane Athen
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Liz Truss is new PM https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-62760180
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Old 5th September 2022, 05:12 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Well, if Boris Johnson needed someone to make him look like a competent leader and consummate statesman this is his best chance.
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Old 5th September 2022, 05:16 AM   #203
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Cameron put forward the referendum and that had nothing to do with what was best for the country he thought he could use it to keep his "rebel" anti-EU MPs in check and keep the Tory party together so he'd remain PM. All the blame for Brexit rests on his shoulders and anyone who voted for Brexit.

In the implementation of Brexit there is of course a huge amount blame to spread far and wide but again that mostly rests on the Tories - they made all the decisions, they conducted all the negotiations, they "got Brexit done".
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Old 5th September 2022, 05:17 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Well, if Boris Johnson needed someone to make him look like a competent leader and consummate statesman this is his best chance.
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Old 5th September 2022, 05:18 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
A whiter shade of pale indeed.
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Old 5th September 2022, 05:23 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
So?

How many parliments has he presided over? How many of his policies have been implimented? how many bills has he pushed through parliment?


If the answer is >0 then perhaps you have a point. But it isn't, so you don't.
He voted against the Lisbon treaty, sided with those demanding a referendum in the EU and many times sided in EU votes with those looking to leave.

Is your view it is only Boris Boris that is responsible as he is the only one to tick your three boxes.
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Old 5th September 2022, 05:28 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
He voted against the Lisbon treaty, sided with those demanding a referendum in the EU and many times sided in EU votes with those looking to leave.

Is your view it is only Boris Boris that is responsible as he is the only one to tick your three boxes.
No.

But the constant references to a man never in power as a scapegoat to ease the burden of guilt on the parties actaully responsible for the situation in which we find ourselves is a pure distraction.

If you can't logic your way into working out that the party in power that held a massive majority in parliment and actually instituted the **** up that is brexit, fueled by their **** up that was austerity, pushed, initially, by a man trying to shore up his power base, latterly by a bloke who still might be in the palm of some russian agent, funded by parties unknown, is in any way the fault of anyone but the people that actually did it, then I don't know what to tell you.

"we did this bad thing because you didn't stop us" is exactly the language of an abuser and you've bought it hook, line, sinker and copy of the Angling Times.
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Old 5th September 2022, 05:38 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No.

But the constant references to a man never in power as a scapegoat to ease the burden of guilt on the parties actaully responsible for the situation in which we find ourselves is a pure distraction.

If you can't logic your way into working out that the party in power that held a massive majority in parliment and actually instituted the **** up that is brexit, fueled by their **** up that was austerity, pushed, initially, by a man trying to shore up his power base, latterly by a bloke who still might be in the palm of some russian agent, funded by parties unknown, is in any way the fault of anyone but the people that actually did it, then I don't know what to tell you.

"we did this bad thing because you didn't stop us" is exactly the language of an abuser and you've bought it hook, line, sinker and copy of the Angling Times.
That is not what I said. I hold many many people far more accountable than Corbyn but I don't think he is enitirely blameless.
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Old 5th September 2022, 05:41 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
That is not what I said. I hold many many people far more accountable than Corbyn but I don't think he is enitirely blameless.
12 years of Tory rule.

The entire situation rests at the feet of the Tory party and their tame press corps.

I really can't see it any other way and am staggered that anyone with a brain (something you have demonstrated many times) can think otherwise.
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Old 5th September 2022, 06:45 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
12 years of Tory rule.

The entire situation rests at the feet of the Tory party and their tame press corps.

I really can't see it any other way and am staggered that anyone with a brain (something you have demonstrated many times) can think otherwise.
The chair of Vote Leave was a labour MP. I hold her more accountable for Brexit than the Tory MPs on the Remain board.
Brexit issues were largely a free vote. Sure the Tories were in government but Labour MPs voted for Brexit and Tories voted against. I don't see it as simple as saying only Tories are to blame. Sure Boris takes the majority of the blame where were are now, but he had the help and votes of many on the left. That seems undeniable to me.
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Old 5th September 2022, 06:50 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The chair of Vote Leave was a labour MP. I hold her more accountable for Brexit than the Tory MPs on the Remain board.
Brexit issues were largely a free vote. Sure the Tories were in government but Labour MPs voted for Brexit and Tories voted against. I don't see it as simple as saying only Tories are to blame. Sure Boris takes the majority of the blame where were are now, but he had the help and votes of many on the left. That seems undeniable to me.
Cameron enabled the referendum, that is where the bucks stops.
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Old 5th September 2022, 06:59 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Cameron enabled the referendum, that is where the bucks stops.
so Boris, Farage, Banks. Cummings, Gove and the 15,188,401 others all get off scot-free. No, I am not having that.

Last edited by Lothian; 5th September 2022 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 5th September 2022, 07:01 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
so Boris, Farage, Banks. Cummings, Gove etc all get off scot-free. No, I am not having that.
Nope, they are on the hook for the implementation.
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Old 5th September 2022, 07:02 AM   #214
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If you want to spend time and effort blaming Jeremy Corbyn for Brexit, have at it and well done for carrying the ERG's water for them

Personally I would have much rather he had never been leader of the Labour Party and whatever he said with respect to Brexit would have been used against him, and the Remain campaign by the rabidly pro-Brexit media. Had he followed his own heart and been pro-Brexit then that would have been at odds with Labour Party policy and had he supported the Remain campaign he would have been denounced as a hypocrite.

Even after the Brexit vote, there could have been many outcomes far less damaging than what has actually happened. Is Jeremy Corbyn somehow going to be blamed for this as well because he failed to find a form of Brexit which was acceptable to the Conservative Party and which didn't cause significant damage to the UK ?
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Old 5th September 2022, 07:39 AM   #215
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Your new PM, wow. I'm really impressed by her commitment to being a sell out.
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Old 5th September 2022, 07:59 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
He is responsible for literally zero of the decisions involved in bringing the country to it's current state.

I think your position is utter lunacy.
Just like a goalie who deliberately lets in an absolute sitter to get the result he wants isn't to blame as he didn't score any goals.

Can you really not see that, with the single exception of Michael Foot, if any other Labour leader of the last 50 years had been in charge, the Tory wreckers wouldn't have got their way and we wouldn't have abandoned the EU?
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Old 5th September 2022, 08:08 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just like a goalie who deliberately lets in an absolute sitter to get the result he wants isn't to blame as he didn't score any goals.

Can you really not see that, with the single exception of Michael Foot, if any other Labour leader of the last 50 years had been in charge, the Tory wreckers wouldn't have got their way and we wouldn't have abandoned the EU?
Can you really not see that the above doesn't matter at all? Again, this is the language of the abuser: "You didn't stop me, therefore it's your fault."

Blame the people that did the thing for the thing.
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Old 5th September 2022, 08:15 AM   #218
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I DO blame the people who did the thing. I also reserve a portion of blame for those who could literally have prevented it and didn't want to.
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Old 5th September 2022, 08:17 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just like a goalie who deliberately lets in an absolute sitter to get the result he wants isn't to blame as he didn't score any goals.

Can you really not see that, with the single exception of Michael Foot, if any other Labour leader of the last 50 years had been in charge, the Tory wreckers wouldn't have got their way and we wouldn't have abandoned the EU?
That is pure speculation. And it seems wrong to me to be criticised about an alternate reality!
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Old 5th September 2022, 08:19 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I DO blame the people who did the thing. I also reserve a portion of blame for those who could literally have prevented it and didn't want to.
How could Corbyn have prevented it? Cameron had a majority; he didn't need a single Labour vote.
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Old 5th September 2022, 08:22 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I DO blame the people who did the thing. I also reserve a portion of blame for those who could literally have prevented it and didn't want to.
Maybe he could have prevented it by offering a second referendum?

Oh, hang on... He did that.


You're hanging all of your criticism on an imagined alternate past.

Again, and I realise this is getting boring:

Blame the people that did the thing for the thing. The people that have literally been in power for the last 12 years.
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Old 5th September 2022, 08:31 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How could Corbyn have prevented it? Cameron had a majority; he didn't need a single Labour vote.
If the Labour leader hadn't been someone who wanted to get out of the EU he could have campaigned vigorously against our doing so, instead of becoming the invisible man paying half-hearted lip service to party policy. Do you remember how close that vote was?

And no of course I'm not letting the Tories off the hook for Britain's Dumbest Decade, an accolade they seem determined to outdo in the current one.
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Old 5th September 2022, 08:43 AM   #223
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I blame Cameron for being reckless enough to gamble on a referendum, simply so he didn't have to stay in a coalition any longer.

I blame Gove, Johnson, Farrage, et al. for running blatantly racist and misleading campaigns.

I blame the UK media for having painted such a distorted picture of the EU over the years, people were willing to believe such rubbish as "Bombay Mix to be renamed Mumbai Mix", "No more bendy bananas", and "Trawlermen to wear hair nets".

I don't blame Corbyn for Brexit. But I do think he was the wrong man in the wrong position at the wrong time. His anti-EU stance was well known, and so was evident he was phoning it in during the referendum campaign, to the point that people like Cameron and Osborne - arguably two of the politician most closely associated with austerity, and thus the target of much vitriol - became the face of Remain.
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Old 5th September 2022, 08:45 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
If the Labour leader hadn't been someone who wanted to get out of the EU he could have campaigned vigorously against our doing so, instead of becoming the invisible man paying half-hearted lip service to party policy. Do you remember how close that vote was?
Again, so what?

He campaigned for what he thought was the best option. He failed. He did not get his way. The situation we are in right now is not of his making.

Other people campaigned for what they thought was the 'best' option. They succeeded and their option was taken. It is therefore the fault, and forgive me for being repetitive, of the people that did the thing.
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Old 5th September 2022, 09:34 AM   #225
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Without wishing to stretch this digression further, my point was that Corbyn did get what he wanted. We left the EU capitalist club, as he (and Benn and Foot) wanted.
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Old 5th September 2022, 10:18 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post

For “Jim” read “Liz”: https://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers/cover-373
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Old 5th September 2022, 11:00 AM   #227
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What Corbyn might or might not have done is meaningless at this point we have a party in charge of the country so bereft of talent that the likes of Truss, Dorrie and Rees-Mogg are considered for high office and supported by a party membership that still yearns for the 1950s, or the 1950s in some cases. It really is irrelevant what Truss announces because she will miserably fail to deliver.
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Old 5th September 2022, 11:20 AM   #228
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If you're looking really hard for a silver lining - Priti Patel is on her way out.
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Old 5th September 2022, 11:23 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
If you're looking really hard for a silver lining - Priti Patel is on her way out.
Yeah, that cheered me up. Briefly.
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Old 5th September 2022, 11:25 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just like a goalie who deliberately lets in an absolute sitter to get the result he wants isn't to blame as he didn't score any goals.

Can you really not see that, with the single exception of Michael Foot, if any other Labour leader of the last 50 years had been in charge, the Tory wreckers wouldn't have got their way and we wouldn't have abandoned the EU?
Well the press will work hard to discredit most any Labour leader - have you forgotten the number they did on Neil Kinnock? Admittedly he would have campaigned much more vigorously for staying in Europe though...and that would have been used by the press against him.

I can see both sides on this because you both have valid...and almost the same points... albeit expressed differently.

The Tories (Cameron, Boris et al, with some notable exceptions) are absolutely to blame for Brexit and should be the ones ultimately held accountable.

It is also fair to note that Corbyn was 'no help' to the remain campaign - partly because he is pretty anti-Europe himself so even if not luke warm about it would have come across as hypocritical (certainly the press would have painted him that way). Yes he could have done more, even explained that whilst he had lots of reservations about Europe it was better, especially for workers rights, to be in it, than out under a Tory Govt. but the press would have laid into him and it would have taken someone with much more skill to navigate that than he has.

So, all in all, he would have been very little help anyway. People swallowed the lie that was Brexit and I don't think Corbyn was capable of talking them out of it even if he'd done his best to do so.

He was guilty of being Corbyn, that does not make him accountable for Brexit in any but the most minor way hardly worth mentioning in comparison to others.
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Old 5th September 2022, 12:04 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
This, exactly this. If he'd have thrown his weight behind the Remain campaign instead of sitting on the fence, the referendum might well have gone the other way.
The far Labour left, as well as the far right ERG of the Tory party was pro-leave albeit for different reasons.

The entire country was divided. The Brexit issue was not on party lines. For example Kate Hoey, Labour left, was pro-Leave. Families across the nation were split.

Even if Corbyn had been pro-Remain, I honestly do not think that would have made a difference to the outcome. People just took it for granted that voters would obey the government and the press but the British public being as maverick as they are, voted the opposite, in the same way they put Rage Against the Machine at no. 1 at Christmas instead of the expected Simon Cowell Pop Idol winner.

In addition, the referendum was only ever' advisory'. Nobody really expected the government to carry out its wishes but assumed they just wanted confirmation to put the issue to bed once and for all as it was an issue tearing up the Conservative Party, not the Labour Party.
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Old 5th September 2022, 12:51 PM   #232
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I for one am really looking forward to the announcement of the cabinet.

Like a bride picks ugly dresses for the bridesmaids, a PM doesn't want to be outshone by their cabinet so they will pick ministers less intelligent and competent than they are.

Dorries, Ress-Mogg... Now I am struggling.
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Old 5th September 2022, 12:56 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I for one am really looking forward to the announcement of the cabinet.

Like a bride picks ugly dresses for the bridesmaids, a PM doesn't want to be outshone by their cabinet so they will pick ministers less intelligent and competent than they are.

Dorries, Ress-Mogg... Now I am struggling.
James Cleverly, Kwasi Kwarteng, Suella Braverman.......
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Old 5th September 2022, 01:52 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
James Cleverly, Kwasi Kwarteng, Suella Braverman.......
James Cleverly Foreign Secretary?
Forget the bottom of the barrel, we’re now digging through the cellar floor.
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Old 5th September 2022, 03:24 PM   #235
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Nadine Dorries has thrown in the towel as well. I'm guessing she got word that she wan't getting one of the big jobs, so has run away in a huff - claims she wants to 'go back to writing books'. Also rumours that she'll get kicked up to the Lords.

More silver-ish lining. Though I'm not sure what could possibly be in the barrel underneath Dorries.
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Old 5th September 2022, 06:47 PM   #236
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If Nadine Dorries and Liz Truss competed against one another in an intelligence test they would both come third.

As I said on Reddit earlier, Liz Truss is a cardboard cutout of Maggie Thatcher only somehow even more vapid that than sounds.

I highly suspect that we will get Poundland Priti Patel (Braverman) in some major role. Possibly replacing Patel herself.
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Old 5th September 2022, 10:10 PM   #237
Lukraak_Sisser
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Hey, at least your new leader is going to take quick action to deal with the energy crisis caused by the last government.
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Old 5th September 2022, 10:46 PM   #238
Manger Douse
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post

As I said on Reddit earlier, Liz Truss is a cardboard cutout of Maggie Thatcher only somehow even more vapid that than sounds.
I've seen Truss described as The Iron Weathercock (I may have miss read that)
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Old 5th September 2022, 11:08 PM   #239
Lothian
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Hey, at least your new leader is going to take quick action to deal with the energy crisis caused by the last government.
Indeed, seeing energy companies go out of business is not what the share buying Tory voters want. I am sure she will bring in measures to ensure they manage to maintain their profits and give bumper dividend payouts to the deserving of this country.
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Old 5th September 2022, 11:18 PM   #240
The Don
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
I've seen Truss described as The Iron Weathercock (I may have miss read that)
Yes, some French politician described her as such IIRC.
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