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Old 18th November 2022, 09:13 PM   #121
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
How is that any different from the idealized Muslims or Hindus or Loki worshipers???

For that matter how is that different from idealized Atheists or Humanists or or or ... or any humans of any kind???
I don't recall saying it was different from other idealized ideologies. You feeling okay? Those pesky voices in your head acting up again or something?

Quote:
So how many? 10 20 1000 how many have you met
Hard to say. My grandfather was a Protestant pastor, my wife and one of my kids are CCD teachers...kind of been around religious folk my whole life. Never kept a scorecard or running count, so I wouldn't have a number at my hip when you suddenly demand one here. Many dozens, anyway.

Quote:
... but... since you have not answered how this species of "idealized christian type" is any different from the rest of any type whatsoever and thus the "christianity" bit has absolutely no bearing on the matter whatsoever.... then your point is definitively moot!!!
Nope. You just failed to understand. Again.

Quote:
In other words fallacious apologetics of much ado about Scotsmen and them not being true... but you have not even defined what a Scotsman is yet ... so your fallacy is compounded on top of yet another fallacy... a double fallacy whopper of casuistry if you will!!!
It seems to make you happy to talk about fallacies, even though you clearly have not the feeblest grasp of what they mean. I am unwilling to sully such innocence.
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Old 18th November 2022, 09:20 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I don't recall saying it was different from other idealized ideologies. You feeling okay? Those pesky voices in your head acting up again or something?
<snip more ad hominem prattle>

Thanks for demonstrating the ethos of christian apologetics...
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Old 20th November 2022, 11:16 PM   #123
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Question Hey arayder... can you answer these questions?

Hey arayder... maybe as an ardent proselytizer for your Zombified ill begotten human sacrifice, you can answer these questions that many of the atheist champions for christianity in this forum attempted valiantly (and acerbically) and failed...
  1. Have you read 2 Chronicles 7:14... doesn't this make the whole farcical melodrama pointless and especially in the light of the Zombified human sacrifice himself admitting that it was all for naught anyway (Luke 16:31)??
  2. And why did he have so much avarice for gold and why did he bungle up his GPStar and why did he run off to hide like a poltroon in Egypt and callously never lifted a finger to stave off the extirpation of children he caused with his avarice and incompetent bungling??
  3. Do you think the advice of the ill begotten Zombified demi-god in Matthew 19:12 is sane or moral... especially that it is clearly a TRICK given that he knew what his deadbeat sky daddy said in Deuteronomy 23:1-2??
  4. And what about what he admonished in Matthew 8:22 given that it is violating the purported 5th commandment in Exodus 20:12??
  5. Who killed Ananias and Sapphira and why and how??

Here is one more bonus question
  • Have you ever read this doozy of a christian faith in James 2:25... where a traitorous treasonous prostitute who betrayed her people and aided and abetted the enemy who extirpated her people to the last man woman and child and even animals and razed her city to smithereens... also is saved and gets to go to heaven for ever while her massacred people get to spend eternity being tortured in hell... do you think James got this theology directly from Jesus' mouth or was it in a blinding flash of light like Paul or in a dream like Peter???
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Old 20th November 2022, 11:31 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
...
The doctors couldn't do jack for me....

So I am sitting there and the Episcopal priest starts talking about how God hears our prayers.
...

My lungs were right as rain and have been ever since.
I was not cured by the Bible or any iteration of it.
I was not cured by the Pope.
I was cured by the Episcopal Church in which I was sitting.
I believe I was cured by God who answered a prayer I didn't even say.
I believe. I believe there is something Devine going on. I know I don't understand it. But I believe.
It's called faith.
I recommend it.

Do you know how many children expire in screeches of agony while their parents are begging a god to stave off the diseases or hunger or pillaging that extirpated them??

So what is special about you... why doesn't your sky daddy save those children or cure them or help them find food or fend off the rapine that destroyed them???

You say that you did not even pray... but yet your sky daddy jumped on the double to perform a miracle for you.... what about the moans of agony and screeches of terror and wailing for succor and prayers for relief.... doesn't your sky daddy hear them???
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Old 22nd November 2022, 12:46 PM   #125
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Arayder, ignoring the...more verbose people in the thread, I'd like to continue our discussion if possible.

I am 100% convinced that the story you presented (as a sequence of events, not including the assumptions about god) is true, or at the very least close enough to the accurate telling of events as it is possible to get with a fallible human memory. I do not wish to imply nor state that you are a liar.

However, why do you think that the sequence of events you have presented is meaningful at all? Why do you think that god saved you in this instance, but let countless others die in similar circumstances? What made this event special when an event with the same sequence of occurrences minus the person getting better was not special?

What about a similar event wherein the person was saved, but they had and were discussing a different faith, such as Islam? Is that evidence that Islam is true?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 12:53 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Arayder, ignoring the...more verbose people in the thread, I'd like to continue our discussion if possible.

I am 100% convinced that the story you presented (as a sequence of events, not including the assumptions about god) is true, or at the very least close enough to the accurate telling of events as it is possible to get with a fallible human memory. I do not wish to imply nor state that you are a liar.

However, why do you think that the sequence of events you have presented is meaningful at all? Why do you think that god saved you in this instance, but let countless others die in similar circumstances? What made this event special when an event with the same sequence of occurrences minus the person getting better was not special?

What about a similar event wherein the person was saved, but they had and were discussing a different faith, such as Islam? Is that evidence that Islam is true?
Thanks for the kind words.

The evidence is all circumstantial, I admit.

And I think it was by God's grace and as such could have happened to a Muslim.

Last edited by arayder; 22nd November 2022 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:06 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
The evidence is all circumstantial, I admit.

And I think it was by God's grace and as such could have happened to a Muslim.

(1) Could it have happened to a Ganesh or Hanuman or Quetzalcoatl worshiper?

(2) This was not the question... the question was ... why you and not the millions upon millions of children expiring in misery and agony and strife every year? What is special about you that you get this deadbeat dad's grace but not all the Spina Bifida children or the children afflicted with any of these tragic diseases...
  • Anencephaly
  • Craniorachischisis
  • Iniencephaly
  • Encephalocele
  • Spina bifida
  • Microcephaly
  • Microtia/Anotia
  • Hypospadias
  • Common truncus (truncus arteriosus)
  • Hypoplastic left heart syndrome
  • Interrupted aortic arch
  • Pulmonary valve atresia
  • Tetralogy of Fallot
  • Transposition of the great arteries
  • Tricuspid valve atresia and stenosis
  • Trisomy 21 (Down syndrome)
  • Cleft palate alone
  • Cleft lip alone
  • Cleft palate with cleft lip
  • Talipes equinovarus
  • Reduction defects of upper and lower limbs (longitudinal, transverse, and intercalary)
  • Exomphalos (omphalocele)
  • Gastroschisis
  • Renal agenesis/hypoplasia
  • Esophageal agenesis/hypoplasia
  • Large intestinal atresia/stenosis
  • Rectal atresia/stenosis
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:11 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Arayder, ignoring the...more verbose people in the thread, I'd like to continue our discussion if possible.
....


When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:15 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Thanks for the kind words.

The evidence is all circumstantial, I admit.

And I think it was by God's grace and as such could have happened to a Muslim.
Which again does not really answer the first question regarding why you think it was important.

With regards to the second part of your response, I accept that you think that a Muslim may well be saved by gods grace even though he does not share the same faith as you. Is there any faith in the world that you feel god frowns upon?

As a similar question, I assume from the things I've seen you write that you are a committed anti-racist (which I am as well). I assume that you would believe that the god you believe in is equally anti-racist? Would that be a fair assessment?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:16 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara
Yes, that's part of my sig. What of it?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:19 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Yes, that's part of my sig. What of it?

Read it... understand it ... and learn from it... not just quote it.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:21 PM   #132
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I do understand it. What I'm failing to understand is what you think I should be learning from it.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:43 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I'd like to point out that while I find the Bible a hateful book, Leumas does not speak for me.

Taken as read, dear heart.
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Arayder, ignoring the...more verbose people in the thread, ....
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I do understand it. What I'm failing to understand is what you think I should be learning from it.


Yes exactly... you need to learn this HISTORY....

Quote:
Under the guidance of Câmara, the Catholic Church in Brazil became an outspoken critic of the 1964–1985 military dictatorship and a powerful movement for social change.[8] Câmara spoke out and wrote about the implications of using violence to repress rebellion resulting from poverty and injustice in other venues than Brazil. Traditionalist Catholics urged the military government to arrest Câmara for his support of land reform and Câmara's colleague, Father Antônio Henrique Pereira Neto, was murdered by unknown conservative forces.

A proponent of liberation theology, he was Archbishop of the Diocese of Olinda and Recife from 1964 to 1985, the entirety of the dictatorship. Liberation theology brought forth the political aspect of the Church's charitable work and was criticized on the grounds that it was encouraging the armed revolutionary struggles that swept Latin America during the 1970s and 1980s
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Last edited by Leumas; 22nd November 2022 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:50 PM   #134
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Yes, I'm aware of his history. Do you think that I'm claiming all criticism is bad?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:15 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Thanks for the kind words.

The evidence is all circumstantial, I admit.

And I think it was by God's grace and as such could have happened to a Muslim.
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Which again does not really answer the first question regarding why you think it was important.
Why doesn't God save everyone? Well, I believe his/her grace saved me. If God saved everyone, every time and never let me loose my car keys it wouldn't be our world.

Quote:
With regards to the second part of your response, I accept that you think that a Muslim may well be saved by gods grace even though he does not share the same faith as you. Is there any faith in the world that you feel god frowns upon?
I haven't studied them all. Most of them seem to me to be a search for the good and the divine. But, I am sure you can find plenty of scripture that says God and Jesus are the only way.

Quote:
As a similar question, I assume from the things I've seen you write that you are a committed anti-racist (which I am as well). I assume that you would believe that the god you believe in is equally anti-racist? Would that be a fair assessment?
I feel a got ya' coming on. ;-)

You may proceed with the incriminating scripture. . .
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:30 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Why doesn't God save everyone?
Not exactly. Why, specifically, did god save you and not someone else?

Let us use a hypothetical person, Redyara. Redyara was in exactly the same position as you but he died. Why did god save you and not him?
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Well, I believe his/her grace saved me.
I know that is what you believe, and that's fine. What I'm asking for is some reason for anyone, including yourself, to believe that. Not what do you believe, but why you believe it.
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
If God saved everyone, every time and never let me loose my car keys it wouldn't be our world.
This is veering into if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle territory. I'm not asking for a complete explanation of all cosmology, I'm asking why you believe a specific thing is a special event.

Let me put it another way. I'm not asking why god saved you specifically, as a choice of god, I'm asking why you THINK god saved you rather than just you recovering on your own. Afterall, people do spontaneously recover from all sorts of horrific diseases all the time, including terminal cancers. What led you to believe this event was down to god and not say, gnomes?

Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I haven't studied them all. Most of them seem to me to be a search for the good and the divine. But, I am sure you can find plenty of scripture that says God and Jesus are the only way.
Indeed I can. Much of the bible is that kind of petty nonsense. Indeed, virtually all religious texts from non syncretic religions are the same. This is the way to paradise, everything else is evil. I won't quote it, as you seem to believe that these parts of holy books can be safely ignored, so proving that the bible condemns non believers to hell would mean little to you.

What I'm trying to do is find a religious or other belief that you think is, for want of a better term, evil.

Take racism for example. Please, correct me if I'm wrong but as I have stated I believe you are something of a vehement anti-racist.

What if a committed racist. Full on neo-nazi white nationalist loon came to the board and stated that he believes that god showed him that white nationalism is the way because while he was praying in his church, which espouses those views, he suddenly recovered from terminal cancer? Would that be evidence that god is a neo-nazi? Should he take that event as being evidence he is correct in his beliefs?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:33 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Why doesn't God save everyone? Well, I believe his/her grace saved me. If God saved everyone, every time and never let me loose my car keys it wouldn't be our world.

So you are special then... but the millions of others are not worthy???


Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I haven't studied them all. Most of them seem to me to be a search for the good and the divine. But, I am sure you can find plenty of scripture that says God and Jesus are the only way.

And do you think this scripture is right?? And the other scriptures that say Ganesh and Hanuman are the only way too... do you think they are mistaken???



Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
As a similar question, I assume from the things I've seen you write that you are a committed anti-racist (which I am as well). I assume that you would believe that the god you believe in is equally anti-racist? Would that be a fair assessment?

I feel a got ya' coming on. ;-)
You may proceed with the incriminating scripture. . .

So do you think that a good deity should not be a racist or not???

Do you think your "God and Jesus" were not racists??
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:42 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Not exactly. Why, specifically, did god save you and not someone else?

Clipped for brevity.
I don't know why God save me. I just don't have an answer. One answer is that I'm full of it and God had nothing to do with it.

But I believe that's not the case.

I think the Bible is a highly suspect document that has been rewritten and more importantly reinterpreted to fit the needs of human society.

People are doing it as we speak.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:55 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I don't know why God save me. I just don't have an answer. One answer is that I'm full of it and God had nothing to do with it.

But I believe that's not the case.

Why do you believe that though? What led you to that conclusion?
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I think the Bible is a highly suspect document that has been rewritten and more importantly reinterpreted to fit the needs of human society.

People are doing it as we speak.
Ok, so why believe any form of Christianity at all? If the founding book upon which the religion is based is so corrupted, why bother with it at all?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:59 PM   #140
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Is it possible that the God/human relationship is not completely defined as yet?

Some point to the Second Coming.

Just saying. . .
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:20 PM   #141
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The second coming that jesus specified would happen while at least one of his disciples was alive?

Again, there's no reason to believe in the second coming if there's no need to believe in god at all.

As I asked, I understand what you believe, but irrespective of whether it is true or not, why do you believe it? What specifically led you to go from the event to the conclusion you have drawn?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:23 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
The second coming that jesus specified would happen while at least one of his disciples was alive?
Wait, we just said the Bible is a flawed document.

Quote:
Again, there's no reason to believe in the second coming if there's no need to believe in god at all.

As I asked, I understand what you believe, but irrespective of whether it is true or not, why do you believe it? What specifically led you to go from the event to the conclusion you have drawn?
I felted in my heart.

The certified letter from God, which you seem to be asking for, got mislaid.

Last edited by arayder; 22nd November 2022 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:36 PM   #143
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What I'm asking for is a reason to accept that it is the truth of the matter.

Even if we assume for the sake of argument that you are 100% absolutely correct in your assessment of what happened (including that you for whatever reason were directly saved by god), there needs to be some reason to accept it as true.

I understand that you say you felt it in your heart, and again I 100% believe you are accurately describing the sensations that you experienced even if I disagree with the conclusions you are drawing from it. That is however, not really a good reason to believe as you do because people of wildly different religious beliefs have said the same thing as you.

I once did door to door fundraising for Cancer Research UK. Brilliant charity, and an interesting job. I'm glad I did it.

I once knocked on a door of a late-middle-aged couple. After doing my spiel, the wife said that her husband was diagnosed with cancer. She had prayed and prayed and he had survived, and was now clear. I congratulated him on his survival and after signing them up, left the door.

My EXTREMELY religious colleague who had been with me on the door rolled her eyes at me and asked me how I could possibly dismiss the existence of god after hearing that testimony. I responded with the same thing I have said to you. Spontaneous remission is a real thing that happens, why should I believe that in this case it was god directly intervening and not in other cases where the individual was not prayed for?

If your anecdote, even if 100% accurate in the specifics of the event is evidence for your god, why are the anecdotes of other religions not evidence for their own cosmology? Why are examples of people who do share your religion who were not "saved" not evidence against it?

There needs to be something to indicate that your interpretation is correct, otherwise there is no reason to accept your conclusions.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:48 PM   #144
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I have no proof. But, I know what I feel. I know the feeling is real.

I feel my love for my wife and it is as real as anything. I felt God's grace. I believe it is real.

You want logic, proof and to know if my belief is "true" and alI got all I got is my heart as proof.

Sorry, pard, that I can't help ya' more.

-------------

Can we get back to the question of whether religion can be used as a force for good in society?

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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:57 PM   #145
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But you cannot possibly know that the feeling is gods grace. You know that you felt something, but there's no reason to believe it was god. Why could it not be gnomes?

Sure, it can be. Unfortunately it usually isn't, and the holy books actively discourage it's use as a force for good unless good is redefined as spreading the religion. Further, it's not necessary to do good. It is at best a useless addition to people who do good.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 04:05 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
But you cannot possibly know that the feeling is gods grace. You know that you felt something, but there's no reason to believe it was god. Why could it not be gnomes?

Sure, it can be. Unfortunately it usually isn't, and the holy books actively discourage it's use as a force for good unless good is redefined as spreading the religion. Further, it's not necessary to do good. It is at best a useless addition to people who do good.
What is it to "know"?

So when the nasty arse little kids in my church get told that their hate filled rants run counter to the Golden Rule, that's not good?

Gotta' go. Talk later, friend.

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Old 22nd November 2022, 04:19 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
What is it to "know"?
To have evidence that supports the supposition and nothing that contradicts it. The more evidence you have the higher the likelihood that it is true. We know that life evolved. We know that sex results in pregnancy. Without confirming evidence or some way to differentiate between two suppositions there is no reason to believe the feeling you experienced was god. It is exactly as likely as the feeling being due to gnomes.
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
So when the nasty arse little kids in my church get told that their hate filled rants run counter to the Golden Rule, that's not good?
It is good, but the golden rule predates christianity and is not exclusive to it. Telling children that their hate filled rants breaks the rule of do unto others is not due to religion.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 04:26 PM   #148
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This thread is silly.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 04:43 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
What is it to "know"?

So when the nasty arse little kids in my church get told that their hate filled rants run counter to the Golden Rule, that's not good?

Gotta' go. Talk later, friend.


Do you apply the golden rule?? Or have you taken the Jesus version who went around maligning entire people and their mothers for not agreeing with his cult???
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Old 22nd November 2022, 04:47 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I think the Bible is a highly suspect document that has been rewritten and more importantly reinterpreted to fit the needs of human society.
People are doing it as we speak.

Originally Posted by arayder View Post
...
Some point to the Second Coming.

Just saying. . .

So where did you learn about the second coming??? Was it from the highly suspect document???

And who are these some who point to it?? Is it the same who made the New Tall tales a highly corrupted and suspect document???
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Old 22nd November 2022, 05:04 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Can we get back to the question of whether religion can be used as a force for good in society?

You yourself in this and other threads have proven that the answer is a resounding... NO!!!


Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I felt God's grace. I believe it is real.

A priest atop a pyramid gouging out the heart of a human sacrifice to Quetzalcoatl also felt his god's pleasure and grace was real.

So did Christian operators of the Gas Chambers or the torturers of witches ... they too felt that they were feeling real feelings that their god was gracing them to do it.


Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I feel my love for my wife and it is as real as anything.

Yes it is ... your wife is real... and your love for her is based upon REAL interaction with a real existing human... and your love is a process of chemicals and neuronal firings in your grey cells... so it is all real...

Unlike your imaginary sky daddy... although your neuronal firings are real for him... they are not based upon him being real but rather upon your participation in rituals and with other human interactions for this imaginary thing...

Just like most people have done throughout the annals of human gullibility for numerous gods ... who you know yourself are not real... just like yours is not but you do not know it.


Originally Posted by arayder View Post
You want logic, proof and to know if my belief is "true" and alI got all I got is my heart as proof.
Sorry, pard, that I can't help ya' more.

Yes... all the Zeus and Thor and Unkulunkulu and Altjira worshipers also felt it in their hearts...

And the victims of the worshipers of Quetzalcoatl too felt it all too palpably in their hearts too.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 05:14 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
And I think it was by God's grace and as such could have happened to a Muslim.
How would you explain when it happens to an atheist?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:32 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How would you explain when it happens to an atheist?
God's grace, is the spontaneous and unmerited gift of divine favor.

Such was and is the case with me, I believe.

I believe.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:38 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
God's grace, is the spontaneous and unmerited gift of divine favor.

Such was and is the case with me, I believe.

I believe.

So you are so very special... in your mind... while the millions of children and people groaning right now and screeching for relief from their misery and suffering... are not as special as you and do not merit your sky daddy helping them ... but you are so very special and despite not meriting it either he still ran on the double and came scurrying to perform tricks for you???

See... just that mindset alone is all a rational person needs to conclude that your religion is the furthest possible thing that could be a concrete thing we can apply to achieve Justice and eliminate hate..... even if your imaginary sky daddy were real ... it would still be a most unworthy thing of anything other than derision and execration....
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:50 PM   #155
MarkCorrigan
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
God's grace, is the spontaneous and unmerited gift of divine favor.

Such was and is the case with me, I believe.

I believe.
Again we know this is what you believe, but you've provided no reason for believing such.

Even ignoring outside perspectives, how can you be sure that the feeling you felt and the remission of your illness was not caused by gnomes? Or Satan?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:56 PM   #156
arayder
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Again we know this is what you believe, but you've provided no reason for believing such.

Even ignoring outside perspectives, how can you be sure that the feeling you felt and the remission of your illness was not caused by gnomes? Or Satan?
I am not certain. I believe.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 07:02 PM   #157
MarkCorrigan
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I am not certain. I believe.
Why? That's what I'm trying to understand. Why do you believe that it was god and not Satan, or gnomes, or Loki?

Is the only reason that you believe it was god that you were predisposed to believe in god and not the other explanations?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 07:14 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
I am not certain. I believe.

So did the Aztec shaman who gouged out the heart of his human sacrifice to his god... so did Torquemada while he was burning witches and torturing Jews for his god... so did the Pope when he ordered the massacres of the Albigensian Crusade... or the Christians who did the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre... and so did the lunatic criminals who flew airplanes into buildings in the name of their belief.

So as you can see... FACTS... as well as your posts in this thread and others... prove Christianity or any religion, practiced as it should be, IS hate, and is NOT the answer to hate.... and is NOT a concrete thing we can do to counter hate.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 07:15 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Why? That's what I'm trying to understand. Why do you believe that it was god and not Satan, or gnomes, or Loki?

Is the only reason that you believe it was god that you were predisposed to believe in god and not the other explanations?
Do you not feel the love of others?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 07:28 PM   #160
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Yes, but what does that have to do with anything?
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