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Old 9th November 2007, 10:27 PM   #321
Pope130
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If the test were held 'round these parts' I'd suggest using Police issue sidearms. All functionally identical (nothing to differentiate those issued to male or female officers, in close physical contact with the user, and having a strong emotional connection.

The test could be held in the police armory, no problem with borrowing them and taking them out of a secured area.

Robert Klaus

Last edited by Pope130; 9th November 2007 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 10th November 2007, 01:33 AM   #322
RemieV
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
If the test were held 'round these parts' I'd suggest using Police issue sidearms. All functionally identical (nothing to differentiate those issued to male or female officers, in close physical contact with the user, and having a strong emotional connection.

The test could be held in the police armory, no problem with borrowing them and taking them out of a secured area.

Robert Klaus
And... are there a lot of dead people on the police force?
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Old 10th November 2007, 02:11 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
Because the materials should be provided by the JREF. Of course, any expenses accrued in getting them will fall to the applicant. But if Ms. Landin is able to get her own set of journals from her own researchers, then she will have time with them beforehand.
My idea was that the JREF was procuring the materials, but Ms. Landin would pay for the service. It is not because I want Ms. Landin to go broke in her attempt to gain a million dollars, but I think that if her claim is of a nature that it will be very time-consuming and difficult to procure the materials, Ms. Landin could pay for getting the necessary materials, rather than having to give up the claim because it is impossible to get volunteers to spend so much time on what sane people think is futile anyway.
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Old 10th November 2007, 02:16 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
And... are there a lot of dead people on the police force?
Go to a Museum. They may have objects that once belonged to people with an emotional attachment to the object. One of them may have a range of guns (or other objects) that belonged to known people who are now dead. If some people are not dead then that is even better.
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Old 10th November 2007, 07:35 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Go to a Museum. They may have objects that once belonged to people with an emotional attachment to the object. One of them may have a range of guns (or other objects) that belonged to known people who are now dead. If some people are not dead then that is even better.
I doubt she would agree to undead (!) possessions. Though I can see how that would lend some extra credibility to her result.
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Old 10th November 2007, 10:27 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
And... are there a lot of dead people on the police force?
I zoned out the dead people part, sorry.

Robert
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Old 10th November 2007, 10:42 AM   #327
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The difficulties in finding suitable test materials for this challenge is a great illustration of how easy (if so inclined) it can be to fool yourself and others about your abilities of perception.

That being said, if she were to somehow to get extremely lucky and guess 16 of them, how on earth will they find enough diaries for the proper million dollar version?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:37 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
The protocol wasn't followed the moment something other than diaries or journals was used - and they were used. One of the targets was a recipe book, and another was a pig farmer's journal. That is not following the protocol. At that point, age is no longer the issue.
Sorry, I missed that part. I'll stop beating the poor dead horse now.
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Old 12th November 2007, 10:33 AM   #329
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I wonder how her original claim got from "tell you what the deceased died of" to "identify the gender"---that negotiation didn't happen at JREF. I expect that it'll be easy to find wedding rings, diaries, etc., that don't hint at their owner's cause of death---much easier than finding objects that don't hint at gender.

Maybe Landin could agree to a matching-protocol. Here are 10 wedding rings, here are 10 pieces of paper with 10 known causes of death. Match the ring with its owner's cause of death.
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Old 12th November 2007, 11:49 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by ben m View Post
I wonder how her original claim got from "tell you what the deceased died of" to "identify the gender"---that negotiation didn't happen at JREF. I expect that it'll be easy to find wedding rings, diaries, etc., that don't hint at their owner's cause of death---much easier than finding objects that don't hint at gender.

Maybe Landin could agree to a matching-protocol. Here are 10 wedding rings, here are 10 pieces of paper with 10 known causes of death. Match the ring with its owner's cause of death.
Maybe, but I think the fact that she's already been through one test of the male/female variety would tend to suggest she'll only be willing to do that again, since it wasn't her fault she failed (perhaps).
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Old 12th November 2007, 12:53 PM   #331
Cuddles
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Originally Posted by ben m View Post
I wonder how her original claim got from "tell you what the deceased died of" to "identify the gender"---that negotiation didn't happen at JREF. I expect that it'll be easy to find wedding rings, diaries, etc., that don't hint at their owner's cause of death---much easier than finding objects that don't hint at gender.

Maybe Landin could agree to a matching-protocol. Here are 10 wedding rings, here are 10 pieces of paper with 10 known causes of death. Match the ring with its owner's cause of death.
The claim was never "tell you what the deceased die of". She originally wanted to simply cold read someone who knew the dead person. It was pointed out that this was not acceptable and eventually identifying the gender of the deceased was settled on as a testable claim. It's all in the thread linked on the first post of this thread.
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Old 12th November 2007, 02:19 PM   #332
RemieV
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Originally Posted by ben m View Post
I wonder how her original claim got from "tell you what the deceased died of" to "identify the gender"---that negotiation didn't happen at JREF. I expect that it'll be easy to find wedding rings, diaries, etc., that don't hint at their owner's cause of death---much easier than finding objects that don't hint at gender.

Maybe Landin could agree to a matching-protocol. Here are 10 wedding rings, here are 10 pieces of paper with 10 known causes of death. Match the ring with its owner's cause of death.
Then the issue goes back to "Who is going to give up their dead grandmother's wedding ring for a Challenge test, knowing that it will be out of sight of the JREF staff and sent over to Sweden?"
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Old 13th January 2008, 05:00 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
Randi has already said that lack of funds are NOT the issue. He doesn't want to continue the challenge anymore, as he's made a ten-year point.
If cash is not the issue, then perhaps it is the possibility of loss of face for good old Jimbob.

Perhaps the Carina Landin episode was a little too close for comfort.

Perhaps, if it wasn't for a bit of "slight of hand" by his henchmen, old fuzz face might have had to chew down on a most unpalatable plate of humble pie.
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Old 13th January 2008, 05:49 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post

Perhaps, if it wasn't for a bit of "slight of hand" by his henchmen, old fuzz face might have had to chew down on a most unpalatable plate of humble pie.
That's quite possibly a libelous statement.
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Old 13th January 2008, 07:51 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
That's quite possibly a libelous statement.
Interesting rebuttal, tkingdoll.

Not a denial, but what could be taken as a threat.

It is disappointing that the threat of legal proceedings is used so much these days to curtail open and honest discussion.

Seen in the context of the cessation of the MDC it could almost be taken as a sign of a struggling organisation.
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Old 13th January 2008, 07:59 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
Interesting rebuttal, tkingdoll.

Not a denial, but what could be taken as a threat.

It is disappointing that the threat of legal proceedings is used so much these days to curtail open and honest discussion.

Seen in the context of the cessation of the MDC it could almost be taken as a sign of a struggling organisation.
I'm in no position to make any 'threats' of legal action. I'm nothing to do with the JREF, I just post on this forum and I live on the other side of the world. I was telling you, though, that your post is quite possibly libelous, and that it's probably not a good idea to make actionable statements against the host of this forum. And it's hardly 'honest' discussion to make unsupported assertions that Randi cheated, don't you think?

No skin off my nose, though. Post all the libel you want.

PS, it's spelled 'sleight'.

Last edited by tkingdoll; 13th January 2008 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 14th January 2008, 12:48 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
I'm in no position to make any 'threats' of legal action. I'm nothing to do with the JREF, I just post on this forum and I live on the other side of the world. I was telling you, though, that your post is quite possibly libelous, and that it's probably not a good idea to make actionable statements against the host of this forum. And it's hardly 'honest' discussion to make unsupported assertions that Randi cheated, don't you think?

No skin off my nose, though. Post all the libel you want.

PS, it's spelled 'sleight'.
Well tkingdoll, if you have a look around this forum you would probably see that libelous posts seem to be the norm.

I also thought that the title "Links Executive" might have been reference to some post that you held with JREF.
You know, the blue writing and all.

Anyway if you have a look at the Carina Landin thread you will see that Randi's henchmen breached the agreed protocols.

I would call that "sleight" of hand.
The type of trick you would expect from an old trickster.
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Old 14th January 2008, 02:10 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
...
Anyway if you have a look at the Carina Landin thread you will see that Randi's henchmen breached the agreed protocols.

I would call that "sleight" of hand.
The type of trick you would expect from an old trickster.
The protocol was not followed by. This has been thoroughly discussed in these threads. This is her Challenge Application thread.

The main conclusion, in short: The time specification wasn't detailed enough.

Ms. Landin's performance in detail. Age of the diary, result:

Originally Posted by Chateaubriand View Post
The experiment leader has published an account of Landin's full result. Here are the ages of the 20 diaries and Landin's guesses (R=right, W=wrong):

1787 - R
1794 - W
1800 - R
1825 - R
1828 - R
1831 - R
1879 - W
1859 - W
1860 - W
1867 - R
1881 - R
1889 - W
1896 - R
1895 - R
1932 - W
1935 - R
1943 - W
1953 - W
1963 - R
1961 - R
...
She obviously performed better on the older diaries she objected to.



Now, buzz, can you specifically point out where and by whom the alleged sleight-of-hand trickery has happened?
Or in which way the swedish testers can be referred to as "henchmen" of the JREF?

Allow me a prediction: You can't.
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Old 14th January 2008, 03:13 AM   #339
buzz lightyear
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Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
The protocol was not followed by. This has been thoroughly discussed in these threads. This is her Challenge Application thread.

The main conclusion, in short: The time specification wasn't detailed enough.

Ms. Landin's performance in detail. Age of the diary, result:



She obviously performed better on the older diaries she objected to.



Now, buzz, can you specifically point out where and by whom the alleged sleight-of-hand trickery has happened?
Or in which way the swedish testers can be referred to as "henchmen" of the JREF?

Allow me a prediction: You can't.
They are a very interesting set of results aren't they GZ.

I particularly like the grouping of wrongs and rights, but enough has been said on this.

The point is, if you are running a show for 10 years based on your "challenge", you should be able do it without "grey" areas.

Capiche!
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Old 14th January 2008, 03:51 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
They are a very interesting set of results aren't they GZ.

I particularly like the grouping of wrongs and rights, but enough has been said on this.

The point is, if you are running a show for 10 years based on your "challenge", you should be able do it without "grey" areas.

Capiche!
You know, it would be a lot easier to take you seriously if you weren't so clever*. I mean, all these half-veiled references and vague accusations, as if you're trying to weave a web of mystery around you. Totally the wrong approach for this forum; it just makes you seem to be irrelevant.

If you want to actually seem intelligent, I'd suggest that you lay out your problems with the Ladin test with specifics. Explain precisely what you found wrong with it, and why. Don't fall back on the argument that if we were smart enough, we'd understand what you're saying. Because that's not at all what it looks like -- it really looks like you're simply not smart enough to explain what you mean, and have to fall back on being snarky.

*'Scuse. "Clever".

Last edited by Jackalgirl; 14th January 2008 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 14th January 2008, 08:31 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
Well tkingdoll, if you have a look around this forum you would probably see that libelous posts seem to be the norm.

I also thought that the title "Links Executive" might have been reference to some post that you held with JREF.
You know, the blue writing and all.
Well you thought wrong. The blue title refers to the fact that I look after the 'Links' section of this forum, a minor administrative function. And this forum is not the JREF.

Quote:
Anyway if you have a look at the Carina Landin thread you will see that Randi's henchmen breached the agreed protocols.

I would call that "sleight" of hand.
The type of trick you would expect from an old trickster.
I am very familar with the Carina Landin thread. Perhaps what you don't know is that firstly, the testing was not carried out by the JREF but by volunteers from another organisation, and secondly that they carried out the test without the JREF being aware that it was going ahead. That was a communication error, sure, but fraud it was not. As far as I know, there have never been breaches in the protocol before. The fact that there was a communication breakdown, no doubt the result of trying to test someone on the other side of the world, does not in any way suggest any sort of cheating went on.

There is plenty of information available about the test on this very forum, you have already been given the links. I recommend you do a little background reading before you go accusing Randi of fraud.
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Old 14th January 2008, 09:53 AM   #342
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Well, at least this conversation got to enjoy a 2 month vacation I guess.
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Old 14th January 2008, 11:49 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
They are a very interesting set of results aren't they GZ.

I particularly like the grouping of wrongs and rights, but enough has been said on this.

The point is, if you are running a show for 10 years based on your "challenge", you should be able do it without "grey" areas.

Capiche!
To repeat it again: We all agreed on the fact that the testers screwed up. Badly.

Thus, allow me to restate my inquiries in case you missed them:
Can you specifically point out where and by whom the alleged sleight-of-hand trickery has happened?
Or in which way the swedish testers can be referred to as "henchmen" of the JREF?
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Old 14th January 2008, 02:21 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Jackalgirl View Post
You know, it would be a lot easier to take you seriously if you weren't so clever*. I mean, all these half-veiled references and vague accusations, as if you're trying to weave a web of mystery around you. Totally the wrong approach for this forum; it just makes you seem to be irrelevant.

If you want to actually seem intelligent, I'd suggest that you lay out your problems with the Ladin test with specifics. Explain precisely what you found wrong with it, and why. Don't fall back on the argument that if we were smart enough, we'd understand what you're saying. Because that's not at all what it looks like -- it really looks like you're simply not smart enough to explain what you mean, and have to fall back on being snarky.

*'Scuse. "Clever".
Jackalgirl! what a pleasant surprise, thought I had made your ignore list.

My problems with the Ladin test is that it is another classic example of the type of operation James Randi operates.
He conducts a half baked shamble, dismisses the poor woman as a deluded individual, then proceeds to tell the world that all psychic phenomena is garbage because he has conducted this "challenge" for 10 years and no one has succeeded.

He is not much different to the TV psychics who perform tricks to fleece gullible punters.
He is an illusionist, and the MDC is his current "trick".

I realise that everyone has to make a buck in this world, but when you do this through trickery, while preaching, that sucks.

Last edited by buzz lightyear; 14th January 2008 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 14th January 2008, 07:27 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
Jackalgirl! what a pleasant surprise, thought I had made your ignore list.

My problems with the Ladin test is that it is another classic example of the type of operation James Randi operates.
He conducts a half baked shamble, dismisses the poor woman as a deluded individual, then proceeds to tell the world that all psychic phenomena is garbage because he has conducted this "challenge" for 10 years and no one has succeeded.

He is not much different to the TV psychics who perform tricks to fleece gullible punters.
He is an illusionist, and the MDC is his current "trick".

I realise that everyone has to make a buck in this world, but when you do this through trickery, while preaching, that sucks.
Please excuse my shock while I realize that you have, yet again, failed to provide any specific examples of what part (or parts) of the Ladin test to which you object. I'm terribly surprised that this happened. Really.
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Old 14th January 2008, 08:48 PM   #346
GzuzKryzt
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
Jackalgirl! what a pleasant surprise, thought I had made your ignore list.

My problems with the Ladin test is that it is another classic example of the type of operation James Randi operates.
He conducts a half baked shamble, dismisses the poor woman as a deluded individual, then proceeds to tell the world that all psychic phenomena is garbage because he has conducted this "challenge" for 10 years and no one has succeeded.

He is not much different to the TV psychics who perform tricks to fleece gullible punters.
He is an illusionist, and the MDC is his current "trick".

I realise that everyone has to make a buck in this world, but when you do this through trickery, while preaching, that sucks.
Can you provide specific evidence for your claims beyond your repeated blunt accusations, buzz lightyear?




Ah, but we've been here before, haven't we?
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Old 14th January 2008, 10:31 PM   #347
RemieV
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
Jackalgirl! what a pleasant surprise, thought I had made your ignore list.

My problems with the Ladin test is that it is another classic example of the type of operation James Randi operates.
He conducts a half baked shamble, dismisses the poor woman as a deluded individual, then proceeds to tell the world that all psychic phenomena is garbage because he has conducted this "challenge" for 10 years and no one has succeeded.

He is not much different to the TV psychics who perform tricks to fleece gullible punters.
He is an illusionist, and the MDC is his current "trick".

I realise that everyone has to make a buck in this world, but when you do this through trickery, while preaching, that sucks.
The "operation he operates"?

Also, I don't understand 'half-baked shamble.' A shambles is a "scene or condition of complete disorder or ruin." Something that is half-baked is incompletely thought out. So... The Challenge is an incompletely thought out scene of complete disorder (only it can't be complete, because it's halvsies?) Or perhaps you meant the alternate definition, in which case a half-baked shambles would be a steak, medium rare.

Carina Landin has not been dismissed. Her Challenge file is still open, and we are still negotiating. Unfortunately, because of her location and the specificity of the items she requires for the test, it may not be possible to test the claim for the Challenge at all.

If the claim is deemed untestable, and protocol negotiations are halted, neither side will be blamed or considered at fault (2.1).

As for calling her a 'poor woman,' I was unaware that you and Ms. Landin were acquainted. If you indeed are, and you aren't just giving her an attribute to make the forum readers more sympathetic to her case, then please ask her why she has not yet responded to my last communication, dated 11/30/07.

For clarification:

Mr. Randi did not write the protocol for the Landin test. He did, however, sign off on it.

Mr. Randi was not aware of the journal-shortage and replacement.

Ms. Landin claims that when she agreed to the protocol, she stated that no journals were to be used older than a certain date.

The protocol states, however, that journals older than that date would not be used *unless necessary*.

It turned out, however, that it *was* necessary, but Ms. Landin was not told that older ones were being used until the test had ended.

The older journals are not the main concern. The main concern is that some of the 'journals' were not journals at all.

When Mr. Randi heard this information, he fully agreed to re-open Ms. Landin's Challenge file and continue protocol negotiations.

Oh, and I'm relatively sure the Swedish Skeptics would object to being called 'henchmen.'
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Old 15th January 2008, 02:17 AM   #348
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A "half baked shambles" is where you take the original proposal by Carina Landin, quite a complicated affair, and turn it into as yes/no sideshow.

A "half baked shambles" is where you toss a couple of .......was it cookbooks?, in amongst what were supposed to be diaries.
Also toss in a couple a bit older than she stipulated.

A "half baked shambles" is then trying to pass this off as your verification of the lack of psychic phenomena.

As for my description of "poor woman".

If she has the gift she describes, she either must be financially desperate to prostitute it in this manner or very needing for the world to know the truth.

Last edited by buzz lightyear; 15th January 2008 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 15th January 2008, 06:12 AM   #349
GzuzKryzt
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
A "half baked shambles" is where you take the original proposal by Carina Landin, quite a complicated affair, and turn it into as yes/no sideshow.

A "half baked shambles" is where you toss a couple of .......was it cookbooks?, in amongst what were supposed to be diaries.
Also toss in a couple a bit older than she stipulated.

A "half baked shambles" is then trying to pass this off as your verification of the lack of psychic phenomena.

As for my description of "poor woman".

If she has the gift she describes, she either must be financially desperate to prostitute it in this manner or very needing for the world to know the truth.
More allegations and accusations? That never happens in this forum.

Allow me to restate my inquiries again in case you missed them:
Can you specifically point out where and by whom the alleged sleight-of-hand trickery has happened?
Or in which way the swedish testers can be referred to as "henchmen" of the JREF?

Buzz, since you seem to have valuable ideas, I'm sure the swedish testers would gladly welcome your input towards attaining proper material for Ms. Landin's re-test.



And for the aspect of "truth": It seems safe to conclude for now that Ms. Landin can't do what she claims to be able to do.
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Old 15th January 2008, 08:49 AM   #350
RemieV
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
A "half baked shambles" is where you take the original proposal by Carina Landin, quite a complicated affair, and turn it into as yes/no sideshow.

A "half baked shambles" is where you toss a couple of .......was it cookbooks?, in amongst what were supposed to be diaries.
Also toss in a couple a bit older than she stipulated.

A "half baked shambles" is then trying to pass this off as your verification of the lack of psychic phenomena.

As for my description of "poor woman".

If she has the gift she describes, she either must be financially desperate to prostitute it in this manner or very needing for the world to know the truth.

Perhaps you didn't read the rest of 2.1 of the Challenge FAQ:

Quote:
Neither the Foundation nor the claimant can force a testing procedure without the approval of the other side.
The wording there doesn't refer to The Other Side that John Edward is always yammering on about. The other side refers to the relationship between claimant and JREF.

To make that even clearer:

The JREF cannot create a protocol and insist that the claimant follow it. The protocol must be approved by the claimant as well as the JREF.

As I already said and thought was perfectly clear:

The diaries being older was not the problem. The protocol did not stipulate "absolutely no diaries older than such-and-such date." It said "absolutely no diaries older than such-and-such date as far as possible."

That is the protocol that was sent to Ms. Landin, and it was the protocol the Swedish Skeptics followed. If Ms. Landin was unable to use older diaries whatsoever, then she should've continued protocol negotiations until the protocol was clear - OR she could have bowed out of the test if a workable protocol could not be established.

She did neither.

Now, the JREF is willing to take responsibility for the miscommunication (which was, again, not actually the JREF's miscommunication, but Ms. Landin's) and re-open the Challenge file.

All of this is pointless, however, if she does not respond.

Here is a list of tests I proposed to Ms. Landin (as well as ones she proposed to me) since the Swedish Skeptics have been unable to find enough journals of the proper age range:

I proposed that we use journals that belong to live people, assuming whatever trace the individuals leave on the journal is left in life as well as death. She declined.

She proposed that we use wedding rings. I pointed out that no one is going to send their dead grandmother's wedding ring overseas for a test, and that it would certainly be difficult to find a high enough number of ambiguously-gendered wedding rings.

She proposed that we use paintings or drawings. I agreed that this was viable. However, I pointed out that museums will not allow paintings to be touched with a bare hand. I proposed latex gloves.

She declined, and said that she must touch the actual paint or pencil marks.

I pointed out that no museum will allow you to do that for conservation reasons.

I proposed that she pick the object that belongs to a deceased person while hiding it amongst nine that do not. She declined.

Here is the last e-mail I sent to Ms. Landin, on 11/30/07, to no response:

Quote:

Carina Landin,

Thank you again for your patience.

If that proposed test will not work, then again, I have to ask you for input.

Relatives are not going to want to send objects that were incredibly important to their deceased relatives overseas for this test.

No museum will allow you to touch paintings or drawings on top of the actual paint or pencil marks.

Where do you propose we find gender-unspecific items that are of great importance to the deceased?
As for your arrival at the description 'poor woman,' you may want to investigate the concept of a false dichotomy.
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Old 15th January 2008, 09:53 AM   #351
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I think both sides are remiss for allowing something as ambiguous as "as far as possible" to become part of a research design. While JREF can't force someone to take a test, and, as far as I know, both sides agreed to the test as it was written, it should have been evident that the wiggle room provided by AFAP, especially when dealing with these kinds of people, was a recipe for disaster.
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Old 16th January 2008, 01:09 AM   #352
buzz lightyear
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Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post

Or in which way the swedish testers can be referred to as "henchmen" of the JREF?
It is a great word "henchmen" isn't it GZ.

It conjours up images of thugs in jackboots, heavies and generally unsavoury people.

So if the JREF big wig, (pictured below) is any indication of the dudes "testing" Carina Landin then you could imagine her feeling somewhat intimidated.








Sorry Tricky

Last edited by buzz lightyear; 16th January 2008 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 16th January 2008, 01:19 AM   #353
GzuzKryzt
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
It is a great word "henchmen" isn't it GZ.

It conjours up images of thugs in jackboots, heavies and generally unsavoury people.

So if the JREF big wig, (pictured below) is any indication of the dudes "testing" Carina Landin then you could imagine her feeling somewhat intimidated.
...
That does not answer my question, which was:
In which way the swedish testers can be referred to as "henchmen" of the JREF?

The other one was:
Can you specifically point out where and by whom the alleged sleight-of-hand trickery has happened?

If you fail to back up your allegations I will report your posts to the mod team.

(In football terms this would be a fourth-and-very-long down, something like fourth-and-miles.)
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Old 16th January 2008, 02:20 AM   #354
buzz lightyear
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Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
That does not answer my question, which was:
In which way the swedish testers can be referred to as "henchmen" of the JREF?

The other one was:
Can you specifically point out where and by whom the alleged sleight-of-hand trickery has happened?

If you fail to back up your allegations I will report your posts to the mod team.

(In football terms this would be a fourth-and-very-long down, something like fourth-and-miles.)
You can choose which meaning for "henchmen" that you believe is appropriate.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
hench·man /ˈhɛntʃmən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hench-muhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -men. 1.an unscrupulous and ruthless subordinate, esp. a criminal: The leader of the gang went everywhere accompanied by his henchmen. 2.an unscrupulous supporter or adherent of a political figure or cause, esp. one motivated by the hope of personal gain: Hitler and his henchmen. 3.a trusted attendant, supporter, or follower. 4.Obsolete. a squire or page.


And if slipping in a couple of cookbooks in amongst what were supposed to be diaries isn't "slight of hand" then I stand corrected.

OOPS that should be "sleight"

Last edited by buzz lightyear; 16th January 2008 at 02:26 AM. Reason: horrendous misspellink
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Old 16th January 2008, 02:23 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
It is a great word "henchmen" isn't it GZ.

It conjours up images of thugs in jackboots, heavies and generally unsavoury people.
Quite, and when it is misused for anybody one disagrees with, it shows that one has run out of arguments, or that one could properly be considered one himself.

Quote:
So if the JREF big wig, (pictured below) is any indication of the dudes "testing" Carina Landin then you could imagine her feeling somewhat intimidated.
A low blow that has nothing to do with the JREF or the Landin case. You have a way of earning disrespect!
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Old 16th January 2008, 04:57 AM   #356
Cuddles
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
You can choose which meaning for "henchmen" that you believe is appropriate.
Or perhaps you should say what you mean. Or should we just assume you're trolling?
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Old 16th January 2008, 05:14 AM   #357
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May I contribute to the confusion by adding that the Swedish language does not differentiate between journal and diary and by explaining that very few people would have kept a journal just about their feelings etc? I don't know if Carina did this on purpose, but a Swedish diary where you write down your thoughts and feelings is something that you would be hard pressed to find under the period she is suggesting: after the Sturm und Drang and before the today living generations.

During the period she suggested a diary/journal (Swedish: 'dagbok' litt. "day-book") would be what is described above: household expenses, recipies and personal notes about births and deaths. For the given value of the Swedish word 'dagbok' that actually fits. So the "they weren't journals at all" is just b.s. as any Swedish speaker could tell you. As for the age thing: (apart from the fact that her hit-score was much better on the disputed books), 'if possible' means just that - if you can't find any more of type A, you will use type B. If you agree to that, you expect type B to possibly show up.

Another problem I have with this is the 'strong emotional attachment thing' how in the name of all that is logical do you quantificate that? I claim that the demand for things with 'strong emotional attachement' makes her claim untestable. You can never know what actually held a strong emotional attachment for somone who is dead. The demand that the person is dead makes it impossible to verify subjective attachment to he thing.

Swedish people, under any circumstances, do not as a rule have strong emotional attachment to their diaries/journals even if they _are_ of the thoughts-and-feelings variety.

In the same vein, you may assume that I carry a strong emotional attachment to my wedding ring.

You'd be wrong, but you'd probably assume that. Especially if you are american or british.

It is just a piece of metal. That I don't even wear. I love my husband, not the bloody ring. If my husband were to leave me tomorrow, what I would draw comfort from would probably be one of his t-shirts or his Darth Vader mug. Although in a test situation, his t-shirt would be attributed to him, and not to me, and to him: it's just a bloody t-shirt.

Even if you could find enough people who would send family heirlooms across the atlantic, and all these rings were not engraved with the partners' names, and were of sizes ambiguous enough not to be pinpointed by that alone, and did not carry other marks to the wearer's gender - how the hell would you know they were cherished possessions? Children think they know their parents, but they don't. If your society expects you to cherish your wedding ring, you will pay lip service to it, but that doesn't mean you actually love it. You may hate it for binding you to someone you don't even like, or you may be completely indifferent to your marriage, but keep it up for the kids - or you may be like me: and feel that your marriage is wonderful, but that that ring really isn't an important symbol of that. There is no way of knowing, because no one actually says: "I couldn't stand your ma and I have no clue where that ring is now, if you find it it's yours".

By claiming that the person must be dead (so no one can ask them questions) and that the object must have strong emotional attachment (which only the owner would know if it _really_has) she has made the claim untestable.

If she then claims that having the object on them every day would leave enough of an impression, then my question is: so do you claim that you can contact the dead through objects of strong emotional attachement to them, or do you now want to change your claim to things that they had close physical contact with every day (in which case hankies could do) As a diary certainly wouldn't be on their person every day, then diaries are moot, in which case you should not have agreed to the first protocol at all. One would then have to ask oneself if she for the first protocol made a claim she knew she couldn't do and hoped for luck.

A new protocol should not leave room for cultural misunderstandings, like the possible attachement a person may or may not have to a wedding ring or a diary. A closer (still not perfect, but closer) test would be for example the psalm books given on the confirmation and first communion. In Sweden the confirmation is comparable to your bat/bar mitzwah - it means you are now an adult: in the time period Carina suggests, it was an important rite to most Swedes. (Until the sixties you could not get government work - not even in the post office - if you weren't confirmed) Even if you did not believe in god, it was still the mark of your adulthood and a big day. If you were a boy you were now allowed long trousers in stead of shorts, and if you were a girl you could now wear your hair up. Richer youngsters were given lavish presents - to this day it is not uncommon to get expensive jewelry or your first moped on the day of your confirmation, and relatives send money. What everyone always gets is a small bible or a psalmbook. Up until the 1950's they were undistinguishable - after that girls would more often get white psalmbooks than boys.

Sweden was a very unequal country 150 years ago, and to people in service or working as farmhands (both men and women worked as farmhands) that psalmbook might very well constitute 100% of their personal belongings with even the clothes on their back belonging to their employer. The psalmbooks were kept all your life, and they weren't handed down, at least not as someone else's confirmation present, but rather kept as memory of the owner. When you died, you were laid out in waiting for the casket to be done, and your psalmbook would prop up your chin to keep the mouth from falling open, thus being with all the way into death. Any psalmbook from this era would have been much cherished and personal, gender non specific if not inscribed on the first page - even if god meant nothing to the owner. (although this is unlikely, because if you really didn't believe and felt strongly about it, you didn't take communion, and you got no psalmbook) One way of securing its value to the owner would be to look in county Småland in sweden, were people were particularly religious - or: look in Minnesota. The emigrants would only have brought the psalmbook if it meant something to them. If they fled the, at the time very restrictive, swedish state church, they would have left it at home, and you packed mainly what you could carry. Not only would this mean that the sheer act of keeping the psalmbook means something, but being maybe the last thing you owned written in Swedish probably also meant you read it often and cherished it for that. These could probably be found in droves in Minnesota antiquariates or some immigrant museum, so they wouldn't be family heirlooms. And being no more than 150 years old, they wouldn't be irreplacable antiques.

This is in no ways perfect, but a lot better than diaries that are impossible to gague for sentimental value to a dead owner, and wedding rings that are hard to find of the gender neutral kind. These psalmbooks are generally small and black and thirteen to the dozen. Easy to pop into a cloth bag and let her feel away to her heart's content so she can't check the first page for inscriptions, and they can be obtained both in Sweden - which would detract from the certainty of them being cherished by the owner - and in USA, where the mere fact that they made it across the Atlantic means the owner didn't think it was rubbish.

Not perfect, but definitely better than diaries and wedding rings.

Anyhow. Kudos to JREF for the angelic patience they have shown Carina. Too bad the Swedish sceptics dropped the ball.

I put my money on Carina never agreeing to a new protocol (It is my personal belief that she agreed to the first one because she saw the loophole) and claiming partial victory since "They never disproved my powers" and dining out on that in woo-woo circles in Sweden for the rest of her days. Counting the -statistically not very improbable - twelve hits as a "good result".
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Old 16th January 2008, 05:20 AM   #358
fls
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I like the image of physical intimidation that "henchman" conjures up - especially with respect to Randi.

Thank you for making me feel less of a geek, Mr. Lightyear.

Linda
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Old 16th January 2008, 06:16 AM   #359
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw View Post

[... long and very interesting post snipped ...]
Welcome, whatthebutlersaw, and thank you for the very interesting and relevant post.
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Old 16th January 2008, 01:37 PM   #360
RemieV
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Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw View Post
May I contribute to the confusion by adding that the Swedish language does not differentiate between journal and diary and by explaining that very few people would have kept a journal just about their feelings etc? I don't know if Carina did this on purpose, but a Swedish diary where you write down your thoughts and feelings is something that you would be hard pressed to find under the period she is suggesting: after the Sturm und Drang and before the today living generations.

During the period she suggested a diary/journal (Swedish: 'dagbok' litt. "day-book") would be what is described above: household expenses, recipies and personal notes about births and deaths. For the given value of the Swedish word 'dagbok' that actually fits. So the "they weren't journals at all" is just b.s. as any Swedish speaker could tell you. As for the age thing: (apart from the fact that her hit-score was much better on the disputed books), 'if possible' means just that - if you can't find any more of type A, you will use type B. If you agree to that, you expect type B to possibly show up.
I do not believe that there was a misunderstanding over the single word 'diary'. The final protocol is a summary/simplification of discussions that have taken place over an extended period of time. Carina Landin did not write and say "I can tell the gender of a deceased person by touching their diary," and that was it. She explained in detail what her claim was, and the types of objects she would need to use in order to achieve her claim.

This is why, originally, she proposed a test using wedding rings (which she later came back to in the second round of negotiations).

In other words, I do not believe that pig breeding journals were used because they were deemed to be the same thing as a feelings-journal, but because there was nothing else available.

As for whether or not a journal actually signifies emotional attachment - well, we have to deduce whether it does or not.

If an individual takes the time to daily record their feelings about their lives and the world for a period of years, we can safely say that the journal was important to them. If it wasn't at the time they started, then certainly it was by the time they finished. I am unable to think of any other reason for a years-long journal to exist. Perhaps I'm dense.
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