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23rd April 2012, 09:12 PM | #1 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
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Most Dangerous Dayhike
So you're hiking in a Utah forest and up ahead, you see what looks like a neat makeshift but elaborate shelter built out of sticks and logs:
Intrigued, you approach one of the two entrances to take a look inside. As you get close to the "door", you feel an unexpected resistance against the top of your shoe. Catching movement out of the corner of your eye, you turn just in time to see this heavy object swinging down from somewhere above, directly at your head: Lights out. Luckily, the first person to come across this deadly setup was a forest ranger who was a military vet and had some training in identifying dangerous devices and not, say, some tween who would've seen the cool-looking stick shelter and run headlong toward it without noticing anything.
Quote:
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23rd April 2012, 10:54 PM | #2 |
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Quote:
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24th April 2012, 03:38 AM | #3 |
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I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
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24th April 2012, 04:46 AM | #4 |
Illuminator
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24th April 2012, 05:13 AM | #5 |
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Even if you accept the traps were for animals I still doubt very much such devices be allowed, given the apparent risk to humans.
I found a publication (PDF) which documents various laws regarding animal trapping in the US: http://www.animallaw.info/articles/arus9animall136.htm |
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24th April 2012, 05:37 AM | #6 |
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24th April 2012, 05:42 AM | #7 |
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24th April 2012, 05:53 AM | #8 |
Philosopher
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Every once in a while someone comes up with a completely new activity, which is clearly harmful, but is not against the law because nobody thought about it before. New laws get created as result, but original initiator/inventor remains free.
When US began minting coins out of nickel, very soon someone made counterfeit nickels (that was 1938, when 5 cents got you something). When arrested, crooks pointed out that law only bans counterfeit money made of paper, gold, silver, copper, and alloys thereof. They were let go. |
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24th April 2012, 06:17 AM | #9 |
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I'm sure there must be laws covering this.
Where I live there have been incidents with someone spanning wires across a bicycle path at neck-hight and someone once dug pits, set up metal spikes in them and covered them with grass. Also, there was a recent incident where some idiot glued razors in the hand-grips of his beer crates. Some crates had been stolen from his back yard. Moron returned them to the supermarket and some lady nearly lost her fingers. That last one led to a conviction. I don't think anybody was arrested for the first two incidents. Booby traps: not as uncommon as I'd like. |
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24th April 2012, 06:18 AM | #10 |
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I don't care what you do to the women and children, leave me alone! |
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24th April 2012, 06:28 AM | #11 |
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
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I would think for animals you'd just build a little fence on the other side and shut the door once in.
Sounds like someone wanted to hurt a human. Or an idiot who wanted to test it on an animal, who should be jailed for animal cruelty. Or jailed for hunting in a grossly inefficient manner. |
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"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
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24th April 2012, 06:36 AM | #12 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Misinterpreted performance art.
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24th April 2012, 06:51 AM | #13 |
Michael McDonald 1967 - 2021
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Why, just why?
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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24th April 2012, 06:59 AM | #14 |
Graduate Poster
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This story reminded me of another story where someone was growing (possibly watermelons), but somebody kept swiping them, so the grower put a sign up that read "One of these melons has been poisoned!", hoping to deter the thief. When he came back the next day, there was added to his sign that read "Now two of these melons have been poisoned!"
Psychological warfare... |
24th April 2012, 07:12 AM | #15 |
Gatekeeper of The Left
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Actually, pot farms in US Forests sometimes have man-traps associated with them. It's not new.
http://www.the-signal.com/archives/30607/ http://comspark.com/esarc/articles/marijuana.htm http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636138 http://www.examiner.com/article/52-m...-national-park |
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24th April 2012, 08:34 AM | #16 |
Penultimate Amazing
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He should have reset the trap and made a few new ones for whoever rigged them in the first place.
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24th April 2012, 11:21 AM | #17 |
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If it went to a jury, I doubt you'd get much sympathy for these dopes. Seems to me an attempted murder charge would be a good start. A brief Google search seem to indicate that in human-booby-trap situations, an attempted murder charge is brought in most cases only when someone actually gets hurt. I suppose it's much easier to convict in those cases, but to me that's just rewarding luck. At least bring the charge and let them plead down to felony reckless endangerment.
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24th April 2012, 11:27 AM | #18 |
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24th April 2012, 11:32 AM | #19 |
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24th April 2012, 11:45 AM | #20 |
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Trapping is completely outlawed in most states. Fullstop.
I disagree with that in principle, often not in practice. Trapping is a highly effective way of hunting. I no longer hunt, but if I found myself in a survival situation I would not hesitate to setup traps. I feel two ways about traps in general usage vs survival usage. There are all kinds of natural dangers in any environment, and when a person goes about moving through these environments they need to use caution and need to educate themselves. This includes knowing a trap when you see it, Just my .02 Trapping has fallen out of use since most states make it illegal in all forms except live traps. Mostly due to animal suffering and animal rights activists. I personally stopped hunting after a few hunts went bad and suffering was a major issue for me. Again in a survival situation I would not hesitate, but currently no such need exists for me personally.. Trapping has been a technique used by man since tool making began. In some regards it should be a skill that is continued to be taught and understood regardless of the law, IMHO. In principle trapping is a skill that should continue. In principle a person should be able to hunt on there own land in whatever way they want. In practice it is very dangerous to have unattended traps anywhere a stupid person might find themselves. In today's society we pander to the stupidest of stupid with paper protection laws. Hot coffee anyone? I completely understand why it is practical to outlaw trapping. I disagree with the theme that we must outlaw all risk in an effort to protect the stupid/uninformed. |
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24th April 2012, 12:24 PM | #21 |
Penultimate Amazing
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If it were me, I'd work the tipster and see if I could get a statement against interest (exception to the hearsay rule) as to why they set the traps. If the intent was to say kill/injure someone to rob them you could charge them with conspiracy (acting in concert with other people and taking the affirmative act of setting the trap). I'll also go out on a limb and say that after separating these two mopes, getting a confession as to their intent with the traps wouldn't be all that hard.
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24th April 2012, 12:40 PM | #22 |
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I understand your point Xulld when it comes to trapping on private land. However this was public property, an open park where anyone from a troop of boyscouts to someone's grandfather could have stumbled into it.
I will also point out that part of making a good trap is making it difficult for the animals to notice. If you made the trap well and didn't mark it for humans then it is certainly just as likely to catch a human as any other animal. Do you expect people to spend all of their time in the wood watching carefully for hair thin trip wires, covered pits and bear traps buried under dirt and leaves? That seems unnecessary to me, trap hunting is not an essential activity and the benefits just don't outweigh the risks. |
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24th April 2012, 12:57 PM | #23 |
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Not sure where you got this information, but it's wrong. Traps like the one in the picture are illegal, and some states have outlawed leghold traps, but just about all fifty states allow some kind of trapping for furbearing animals. |
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24th April 2012, 01:06 PM | #24 |
Penultimate Amazing
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24th April 2012, 01:11 PM | #25 |
Penultimate Amazing
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In Germany in the early 50's, hunting through a small forest outside Kitzingen, I heard a commotion over there.. went over there and found a Roebuck in a noose-snare... freshly dead of a broken neck.
My daddy and I took it to the other side of the forest and left it there. |
24th April 2012, 01:11 PM | #26 |
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I agree completely. In practice putting traps where people can unintentionally trigger them is bad mojo. Public or private land is really the same in the sense that most people do not know when they are on one or the other without fences and signage.
Animals are notoriously bad at getting used to anything that has been in there environment for many days on end. You could paint your trap bright orange with pink poka dots and use chrome and still catch any animal if the trap had been there long enough for them to become desensitized to its presence. Not at all, but really as soon as I saw that picture in the OP I would have been on high alert. Traps for animals really do not need to be overly hidden to be effective, however some of the best traps use very little engineering and just by the fact that they are simple, they are often hard to detect, unlike the trap in the OP. Like I said, I have very mixed feelings about traps when it comes to non-survival situations. Even with good signage, or warnings that is just no guarantee the hapless person will even see the warnings. Given that hunting is sooo highly regulated anymore trapping has become mostly a thing of the past, and so has the skills used to avoid them, I think that is a problem. What to do, not sure. Mostly my desire to post in this thread was really just to express my own mixed feelings, not take any given side. Imagine for a moment that this trap was set and hidden under leaves. I would have a much harder time even seeing this vs what was in the OP. In some states you can still hunt with these traps. You know, I have only hunted in a handful of states, but everyone I have has regulated trapping to the point of scarcity. I guess I could have been more specific. Restrictive law to me is not far from a ban. My statement was very poor, but I still believe the theme. Trapping has been restricted almost to death. Good information, thanks! |
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24th April 2012, 01:14 PM | #27 |
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Trap lines must be marked to be legal.
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24th April 2012, 01:27 PM | #28 |
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Quote:
Live traps are expensive, large, and not as effective. The high cost with the large maintenance make it cost prohibitive, and traditionally trapping has been a poor mans hunting technique. |
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"Natural justice is a symbol or expression of usefullness, to prevent one person from harming or being harmed by another."-Epicurus Freedom of Speech is a right recognized in the First Amendment. Freedom from consequence is nowhere to be found. -Bstrong |
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24th April 2012, 01:31 PM | #29 |
Massager of French
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I think we can all agree that Skyrim needs to be outlawed.
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24th April 2012, 01:32 PM | #30 |
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Thanks for clarifying your position Xulld. Traps just make me nervous. I grew up in Michigan and while I never ran into a trap in the woods out there I heard stories about how the fur traps could mess up your foot or leg. I also heard lots of stories of hunters accidentally shooting bystanders and each other every deer season. I guess I just don't trust a bunch of drunken hunters to properly mark their traps. It's a bummer for those who would be responsible hunters but in the USA we seem to find it easier to ban a thing entirely than to require proper certification.
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24th April 2012, 01:34 PM | #31 |
Bow Tie Daddy
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That's just for hog trapping (not real mainstream).
North Carolina still allows traditional trapping for quite a few species, including armadillo! The fur market is not what it used to be, but you can still make a few bucks trapping furbearing mammals. I haven't looked to see what an armadillo pelt is worth. |
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"Don't be too offended by the likes of him - I hear he doesn't even own ascots." -JoeyDonuts "I must be more tired than I thought. Howie, you are starting to make sense." -MG1962 "You're a mean old evil cynic. And mean." Halfcentaur "...wing collars are like an ocular violation."-TubbaBlubba |
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24th April 2012, 01:41 PM | #32 |
Bow Tie Daddy
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It's not even close to being banned.
Most states require the traps to be tagged with their owner's name, and that trap lines be checked (often daily, sometimes every 72 hours, depending on the state). Some states don't allow leghold traps, or require that leghold trap jaws be smooth (no teeth). Hell, some states still allow snares, as long as the snare opening is smaller than a certain size (to prevent catching deer). Even California allows trapping, (with legholds) for crying out loud. And they don't allow anything! |
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"Don't be too offended by the likes of him - I hear he doesn't even own ascots." -JoeyDonuts "I must be more tired than I thought. Howie, you are starting to make sense." -MG1962 "You're a mean old evil cynic. And mean." Halfcentaur "...wing collars are like an ocular violation."-TubbaBlubba |
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24th April 2012, 01:43 PM | #33 |
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http://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/...Trap Types.pdf
Yea Howie is right, I was being overly dramatic. My impression was based off of a time when I was very poor and many of the regulations made the traps I had illegal. |
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"Natural justice is a symbol or expression of usefullness, to prevent one person from harming or being harmed by another."-Epicurus Freedom of Speech is a right recognized in the First Amendment. Freedom from consequence is nowhere to be found. -Bstrong |
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24th April 2012, 01:47 PM | #34 |
Bow Tie Daddy
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It's not a cheap hobby, that's for sure.
The guys I know that do it, don't do it for a living. One guy I know sat down and figured what he made last year versus the time and energy he expended ended up being about a dollar fifty an hour. Not exactly living wages. |
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"Don't be too offended by the likes of him - I hear he doesn't even own ascots." -JoeyDonuts "I must be more tired than I thought. Howie, you are starting to make sense." -MG1962 "You're a mean old evil cynic. And mean." Halfcentaur "...wing collars are like an ocular violation."-TubbaBlubba |
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24th April 2012, 02:24 PM | #35 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
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I have trouble believing these folks set their traps for animals, since according to the ranger who found them they seemed to be designed to kill something the general height and shape of a human. Going to use a 20-pound spiked ball swinging at human-head-height to kill a rabbit? Give me a break. And their "accidentally forgot about it" claim might not be worth much if it's true they were talking about the traps on Facebook.
Can't they be charged with attempted murder of the park ranger? He wasn't hurt, but it's purely by chance. What are people who plant explosive devices usually charged with if the device is found and disarmed without hurting anyone? |
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24th April 2012, 02:50 PM | #36 |
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24th April 2012, 03:30 PM | #37 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
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A bear, nah. The thing has to be moving forward to activate the trip wire, which means it would be on all fours and the stake-ball would swing right over it.
Bigfoot I can buy. It's time someone really put the "hunt" back into Bigfoot hunts. I'd pay for a Sasquatch pelt. |
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24th April 2012, 03:34 PM | #38 |
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It sort of makes me wish that setting a trap such as that one would result in charges of third degree felonious stupidity. Posting about it on Facebook would kick it up to first degree felonious stupidity.
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25th April 2012, 03:36 AM | #39 |
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25th April 2012, 03:41 AM | #40 |
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