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Tags loose change , final cut

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Old 12th November 2007, 08:18 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Dazed View Post
The angle at which these columns are bent outward away from the building seems strange though. What do you think?
They're not bent outward, they're bent inward and to the left. Back and to the left, I guess.
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Old 12th November 2007, 08:18 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Hyperviolet View Post
I'm just at the Pentagon section. Okay, same mistake as last edition.

"Those who believe a 757 did not hit, are fueled with the damage to the building..........
....... particularly the lack of damage from the wings or vertical stabilizers"


Loose Change misrepresents the damage by showing this image:

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/imgs/blue1c_s.jpg


The water obscures the damage, when in reality, the wing damage was made on the lower floor, which cannot be seen due to the fire fighting operation.
As seen on the zoom out shot:
http://www.twf.org/News/Y2002/0215-Pentagon.JPG

Real damage, including the lower floor:
http://www.freedom-force.org/pics/pe..._composite.jpg


That's dishonest.
I might add that after the facade damage, the wings folded neatly back into the fuselage and slipped into the hole that the nose and fuselage created...well according to the Purdue simulation.
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Old 12th November 2007, 08:18 AM   #83
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Just started the Controlled Demolition section.

Apparantly the towers collapse in approximately 10 seconds, with WTC 7 in under 7 seconds. Hmm.

Regarding WTC 7, It is noted that: "If this is true, it would be the 3rd steel framed skyscraper to completely collapse due to damage and fire."
The film then goes on to compare the collapses with buildings only suffering from fire.
Bizarre.
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Old 12th November 2007, 08:21 AM   #84
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http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/m...aim/index.html

Quote:
One of the terrorists, Al-Ghamdi (posing as Abu Abdul Rahman), pretended to send a love message via an Internet chat room to his German girlfriend, who was actually Binalshibh. It contained more code for the attacks:

'The first semester commences in three weeks. Two high schools and two universities. ... This summer will surely be hot ...19 certificates for private education and four exams. Regards to the professor. Goodbye. '
Am I right about the Al-Ghamdi/fighter pilot mix up? I'm wondering here.
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Old 12th November 2007, 08:27 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
I might add that after the facade damage, the wings folded neatly back into the fuselage and slipped into the hole that the nose and fuselage created...well according to the Purdue simulation.
If the plane folded neatly into the hole the nose and fuselage punched, then what caused the wide damage on the lower floor?

I'm confused.
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Old 12th November 2007, 08:35 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
I might add that after the facade damage, the wings folded neatly back into the fuselage and slipped into the hole that the nose and fuselage created...well according to the Purdue simulation.
That's just blatantly not true. The Purdue simulation had the wings carry on into the building. Have you not seen it?
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Old 12th November 2007, 08:35 AM   #87
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Does anyone notice that at the 38 minute mark he mentions the Washington Post said that flight 77 was light, and a yellow banner rolls across the screen with nothing on it?

Maybe its just the google video version.
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Old 12th November 2007, 08:50 AM   #88
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On the Taliban's willingness to hand over Bin Laden if they were given evidence of his guilt, there is this article from the Washington Post, amusingly on the InfoWars site. It makes clear that this was a delaying tactic the Taliban repeatedly used, and never resulted in a handover, even after evidence was given and more was offered even before 9/11.

Quote:
By that time, bin Laden had been indicted for his alleged role in the embassy bombings. The officials reviewed the indictment in detail with the Taliban and offered to provide more evidence if the Taliban sent a delegation to New York. The Taliban did not do so.
Quote:
"It became clear that the call for more evidence was more a delaying tactic than a sincere effort to solve the bin Laden issue," Inderfurth said.
http://www.infowars.com/saved%20page...et_taliban.htm

Even as the Taliban faced its own destruction, they wouldn't hand him over. And America's attempts to get Osama Bin Laden to the US started, according to this article, in 1996, and pushed a great deal harder from 1998.

The implication of what LCFC is putting forward is that all the US had to do was hand over evidence of guilt, and they'd have had their man. Because despite LCFC's apparent desire to put 'facts' out there for people to make up their own mind, the narrative they've constructed is designed to make you believe there was a conspiracy.

Oh, and the score is even crasser than LCSE, particularly the pentagon section.

It's also duller than LCSE. I see this as a good thing, I think it will lessen the appeal of the video and how many people swallow it. It's the whimper of the truth movement.
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Old 12th November 2007, 08:50 AM   #89
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What about the handing Bin Laden over if the US can provide solid evidence? And this is after Dylan Claims the Government says they have mountains of evidence against him.

I'm not in truther mode, but I think it should be included in this thread, seeing as how someone who may have watched the film may think you are neglecting to comment on it.

Nevermind, seems it has been adressed in another thread:

Originally Posted by Matilda View Post
On the Taliban's willingness to hand over Bin Laden if they were given evidence of his guilt, there is this article from the Washington Post, amusingly on the InfoWars site. It makes clear that this was a delaying tactic the Taliban repeatedly used, and never resulted in a handover, even after evidence was given and more was offered even before 9/11.

Quote:
By that time, bin Laden had been indicted for his alleged role in the embassy bombings. The officials reviewed the indictment in detail with the Taliban and offered to provide more evidence if the Taliban sent a delegation to New York. The Taliban did not do so.
Quote:
"It became clear that the call for more evidence was more a delaying tactic than a sincere effort to solve the bin Laden issue," Inderfurth said.
http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Prior_Knowledge/US_met_taliban.htm

Even as the Taliban faced its own destruction, they wouldn't hand him over. And America's attempts to get Osama Bin Laden to the US started, according to this article, in 1996, and pushed a great deal harder from 1998.

The implication of what LCFC is putting forward is that all the US had to do was hand over evidence of guilt, and they'd have had their man. Because despite LCFC's apparent desire to put 'facts' out there for people to make up their own mind, the narrative they've constructed is designed to make you believe there was a conspiracy.

Oh, and the score is even crasser than LCSE, particularly the pentagon section.

It's also duller than LCSE. I see this as a good thing, I think it will lessen the appeal of the video and how many people swallow it. It's the whimper of the truth movement.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:02 AM   #90
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Claim: Molten Metal exceeding 2000 degrees fahrenheit was found in the rubble.
Okay, can someone more knowledgable help me out here?


It's my understanding that according to NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36 the steel was exposed to heat no greater than 1800 degrees fahrenheit.

What is LC's source that this steel is over 2000 degrees fahrenheit?
Is it just based on the assumption that the molten material is steel?

With that assumption, however, it's my understanding that the molten metal, in order to be steel, would have to be exceeding 2800 degrees fahrenheit?

Am i missing something?

EDIT: I see Guiliani says the fires were exceeding 2000 degrees.
Can anyone confirm where he got this information, as to be certain it is not a layman mistake?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:24 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Matilda View Post
The implication of what LCFC is putting forward is that all the US had to do was hand over evidence of guilt, and they'd have had their man. Because despite LCFC's apparent desire to put 'facts' out there for people to make up their own mind, the narrative they've constructed is designed to make you believe there was a conspiracy.
No one at the time ever thought that the Taliban would hand over OBL no matter what evidence the U.S. government had. Dylan seems to think that no one had ever heard about the Taliban before 9/11 (just because he probably hadn't). For years before 9/11 I had been teaching my students about how the Taliban treated people, women in particular. Wanna fly a kite? Let's stone you instead.

Dylan was a high school student in far away upstate New York on 9/11 and most of his followers were in the second or third grade. I however was 37 and actually in NYC watching all this happen and the word of the day was confusion, confusion, confusion. It's dishonest to take the media reports of the day and present them as fact. Why not mention the widespread reports that there were bombs at Stuyvesant High School? People told me that they were 100% certain that it was a helicopter that crashed into the North Tower. Where's the report on that?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:25 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Hyperviolet View Post
I see Guiliani says the fires were exceeding 2000 degrees.
Can anyone confirm where he got this information, as to be certain it is not a layman mistake?
Again, more confusion. Guiliani also said that New York City was going to need 10,000 body bags.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:27 AM   #93
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They make a big deal out of the NASA thermal images without bothering to show them; wonder why? Maybe because they don't show nearly high enough temperatures?

Quote:
In response to requests from the Environmental Protection Agency, through the US Geological Survey, NASA flies a plane over the site of the WTC complex, equipped with a remote sensing instrument called AVIRIS. AVIRIS is able to remotely record the near-infrared signature of heat. Analysis of the data it collects indicates temperatures at Ground Zero of above 800 degrees Fahrenheit, with some areas above 1,300 degrees. On September 16, dozens of “hot spots” are seen, but by September 23, only four or five remain.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:28 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by deep44 View Post
Yes, they presented the facts and left it up to the viewer to decide what they mean. With regard to Rumsfeld's announcement, that's exactly what it was (according to the dictionary). He called a press conference to announce it.

http://dictionary.com
Not true, he mentioned it in passing during a speech to the "DOD Acquisition and Logistics Excellence Week Kickoff—Bureaucracy to Battlefield".

http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/...x?speechid=430
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:32 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Again, more confusion. Guiliani also said that New York City was going to need 10,000 body bags.

So, it's true that no metal was tested and found to be at those temperatures, contrary to claims in LCFC?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:33 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Hyperviolet View Post
Claim: Molten Metal exceeding 2000 degrees fahrenheit was found in the rubble.
Okay, can someone more knowledgable help me out here?
The Truthers always point to the witnesses who said they saw molten steel, then they looked up that molten steel is 2800F. I think that's it.

By the way, has anyone else taken a look at the Loose Change Forum lately for topics about LC:FC? All I see is a bunch of grumbling and faint praise.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:35 AM   #97
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!





I know I have no real right to ask this, but do you think we could spawn this thread out into the style I have done with the 'Act 1: Hijackers' thread? It just makes everything a lot more tidy and easy to source things from. And information will not get lost in the maze.

Many regards,
UW





!

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Old 12th November 2007, 09:36 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let's start a compilation thread here for all the mistakes and bunk.

I'll start it off with the segment of Sander Hicks discussing Mahmoud Ahmad's supposed $100,000 wire transfer to Mohamed Atta. Hicks states that the Wall Street Journal confirmed the story. In fact, they did nothing of the kind. The Journal's house blog, Best of the Web Today, simply linked the Times of India piece and did no original reporting or confirmation:
.

Do you have any evidence that Wall Street Journal did not confirm the story?
Also, how can you speak for the Wall Street Journal or its associated blogs in the first place?
If so I would like to see that.

Here is a second source regarding wired money to Atta from Pakistan from CNN.

Sen. Joe Biden confirmed the wire transfer in his interview. When confonted, Biden stated, ""We asked him the question - what was he doing with the head of the Pakistani ISI General Mahmoud Ahmad," said Rudkowski.

"He (Biden)told me - he(Biden) admitted that he met with him - (Biden) met with the head of the Pakistani ISI - he said I told them not to do it, I (Biden)told them not to wire the money - I told them to stop supporting the Taliban..."
You can view the interview at We Are Change.

When you have confirmation like that, do you still deny the story?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:38 AM   #99
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Sorry to go off topic for a moment...but I'm wondering if LTW shut down the LC forum?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:38 AM   #100
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Atta's will gets brought up a lot, but the Troofers never really consider anything beyond the oddity that he would have it on the plane with him (if it had made the connection). But why would a healthy man of 32 years have prepared a will if he didn't know he was about to die? Indeed, it strikes me as far more likely that the will was intended if the mission turned out a failure and Atta was killed before he could crash the plane. Indeed, if you look at it, Atta includes instructions on how to wash his genitals (while wearing gloves). But he can't have been delusional enough to think that much of his body would survive the plane crash.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:41 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Do you have any evidence that Wall Street Journal did not confirm the story?
Errm. Swing, that's a negative claim. Akin to the Parable of the Celestial Teapot.

The burden of proof is on the positive claimant, that is; The Wall Street Journal did confirm the story.

Do you have such evidence?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:42 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by CurtC View Post
That's just blatantly not true. The Purdue simulation had the wings carry on into the building. Have you not seen it?
I may have been thinking of the WTC simulation. I apologize for the error.

Are there holes in the facade that I missed where the wings carried on into the building?

One other issue, are they now manufacturing invincible passenger plane tails?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:43 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Hyperviolet View Post
So, it's true that no metal was tested and found to be at those temperatures, contrary to claims in LCFC?
Rudy has used the 2000 degree fire in many speeches, I'm assuming he got this information from the FDNY.

Loose Change:The Final Insult goes into the old story about this molten metal. Can someone please tell me what the hell is the connection between molten metal and a controlled demolition? Would either thermite or conventional explosives continue to burn for weeks afterwards despite lots of rain? Isn't the whole point of a controlled demolition to get the job done simply?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:44 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post

Bin Laden denies responsibility


Easy one. The only "proof" of his denial were letters apparently written by him sent to Al-Jazeera. However, there is plenty of video evidence of him praising the hijackers, talking to them, and taking responsibility. An unconfirmed versus multiple videos? I'll bet on the latter.
Not to mention that - even if the denial was genuine - Bin Laden may not be the most reliable source. He has also claimed that - for example - him and his 'comrades' in the Afghan insurgency saw no evidence that the US were involved...
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:45 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
At least he dropped the insulting Burlingame thing.
Wow, that's like an admission that he was wrong!
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You of course would forget that the original burden of proof falls upon truthers. Swing Dangler commenting on the air phones issue

Here is a diagram of a Boeing 767. I see numerous potential exit points. For example, the Nose Gear Door.... A-Train on "potential" exits on a 767.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:47 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
Do you have any evidence that Wall Street Journal did not confirm the story?
Also, how can you speak for the Wall Street Journal or its associated blogs in the first place?
If so I would like to see that.
The Best of the Web is a blog, not an investigative news show. Twice I have sent them articles and they showed up just a few hours laters, even got my name mentioned at the bottom, so no, they do not investigate stories.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:48 AM   #107
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It is, on the surface of it, extremely bizarre (Atta's will). The FBI not releasing the original Arabic copy only fuels a 'God of the Gaps' argument.

Maybe we will never know, and an explanation will never be found, and we will always wonder.

But what we can tell for sure, is that this in no way proves the Government were involvement in the attacks. It's wierd, but it still fails to be evidence.

Dylan just needs to track down the baggage handlers, establish why the bags were not loaded, etc. I fail to see the need for an independent inquiry, on the basis of lost luggage.

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Old 12th November 2007, 09:50 AM   #108
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Speaking of the hijackers here's a real conspiracy for you. Why was the mayor of Patterson, New Jersey keeping track which Pattersonians are going to Go Go Clubs and which are going to Mosques?

Originally Posted by Loose Change:The Final Insult
The Mayor of Patterson stated that they (the hijackers) are spotted more at Go Go Clubs than at Mosques.
And speaking of other weird things in this steaming pile, what is the point of telling us Llyod England belongs to the Blue Knights Motocycle Club?
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:54 AM   #109
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[quote]
Originally Posted by Hyperviolet View Post
Errm. Swing, that's a negative claim. Akin to the Parable of the Celestial Teapot.
Wrong. Pat is claiming the Wall Street Journal did not confirm the story. He could contact the relevant editors or bloggers and post their reply stating they did not confirm the story and thus his assumption would be proven correct with evidence.
Combined with other news outlets that covered the story along with Biden's comments, I think Pat's point is pointless.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:56 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by jamesB
At least he dropped the insulting Burlingame thing.
No, it's there.
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Old 12th November 2007, 10:00 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
The Best of the Web is a blog, not an investigative news show. Twice I have sent them articles and they showed up just a few hours laters, even got my name mentioned at the bottom, so no, they do not investigate stories.
Well when they confirm that, I will believe that they don't confirm stories.

Are you stating the Times of India story is wrong? If so, can you provide evidence that it is wrong? If it is wrong, can you explain why Biden confirmed the ISI chief wiring money?

Quote:
From Asia Times:
Mahmoud's involvement in September 11 might be dismissed as only Indian propaganda. But Indian intelligence swears by it, and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has confirmed the whole story: Indian intelligence even supplied Saeed's cellular-phone numbers. Nobody has bothered to check what really happened. The 9-11 Commission should pose very specific questions about it to FBI director Robert Mueller when he testifies this month. Source: Asia Times
Are you aware if the FBI has denied the confirmation of the India Times story?
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Old 12th November 2007, 10:06 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post

Wrong. Pat is claiming the Wall Street Journal did not confirm the story. He could contact the relevant editors or bloggers and post their reply stating they did not confirm the story and thus his assumption would be proven correct with evidence.
Combined with other news outlets that covered the story along with Biden's comments, I think Pat's point is pointless.
I think you are missing the point here, Swing.

It was Loose Change who claimed the story was confirmed. They offered nothing to back it up. It's not Pat's job to call the Journal.

Example (using a deliberately silly scenario):

Person A: Boeing planes can't even reach 300mph. This was confirmed by their own public relations staff.

Person B: I have seen no such confirmation of this claim by anyone from Boeing.

Person A: Prove it wasn't confirmed!

Person B: Ehh actually, you made the claim of confirmation.

Person A: But you claimed that the claim was not confirmed. It's your job to phone around.



It doesn't work like that, Swing.
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Old 12th November 2007, 10:19 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Atta's will gets brought up a lot, but the Troofers never really consider anything beyond the oddity that he would have it on the plane with him (if it had made the connection). But why would a healthy man of 32 years have prepared a will if he didn't know he was about to die?
Atta's will was prepared in 1996 (http://911myths.com/index.php/Mohamed_Atta_Timeline) & so there's no reason to believe it had anything to do with the attacks.
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Old 12th November 2007, 10:26 AM   #114
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Is it just me, or does it look like all of the news footage has been cropped so as to avoid network logos (abc, nbc, cspan) from being shown on-screen. I wonder if this is due to copyright concerns?
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Old 12th November 2007, 10:27 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
Atta's will was prepared in 1996 (http://911myths.com/index.php/Mohamed_Atta_Timeline) & so there's no reason to believe it had anything to do with the attacks.
I wondered if there was a date on this.

Seeing how his will is more about how he wants his physical body to be treated, I cannot see there being much use for it anymore. It is possible it was easy to just dispense of it.

I can't see how the hypothetical government conspirators can prove Atta's intentions either way with this.

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Old 12th November 2007, 10:27 AM   #116
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Sorry, but this whole ISI funding the 9/11 terrorists idea is just plain stupid. I understand that back in the 1980s the CIA had to fund the Afghans through untraditional means, but come on, we're talking about only $100,000 here. There's probably more than that in the CIA's petty cash box. Why go through the ISI at all?
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Old 12th November 2007, 10:42 AM   #117
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20:34 - "AI understand the witnesses we assumed we were gonna get to hear from from the Defense Department have been pulled." - Joseph Biden

Silverstein must have had a hand in that! They were pulled!!!

ETA: 20:41 - "..security clearance has been pulled"


Wow...must have had a lot of explosives to use up.
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Old 12th November 2007, 10:55 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by MikeW View Post
Atta's will was prepared in 1996 (http://911myths.com/index.php/Mohamed_Atta_Timeline) & so there's no reason to believe it had anything to do with the attacks.
Correction gratefully accepted! So this is some form of standardized will? In some ways, that makes the request on how his genitals are to be cleaned even weirder.
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Old 12th November 2007, 11:02 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Loose Change"
....... particularly the lack of damage from the wings or vertical stabilizers"

How about this for the vertical stabilizer?



Originally Posted by CurtC
They're not bent outward, they're bent inward and to the left. Back and to the left, I guess.
LOL, you forgot to repeat that 10 times while showing us gory footage.

Originally Posted by SwingDangler
I might add that after the facade damage, the wings folded neatly back into the fuselage and slipped into the hole that the nose and fuselage created...well according to the Purdue simulation.
The Purdue simulation shows no such folding....they have the wings hitting square on.
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Old 12th November 2007, 11:03 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Correction gratefully accepted! So this is some form of standardized will? In some ways, that makes the request on how his genitals are to be cleaned even weirder.
Yes. I read somewhere that it was a machine-produced thing, basically you chose the options you wanted, it prints them out & you & a couple of witnesses sign it - job done. Unfortunately I forgot to note down where I read that (d'oh! rookie mistake), but there's a reference on the timeline page that also says it's a standardised will, so I'm confident that's correct.
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