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Old 29th April 2007, 05:31 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Well this is what the Associated Press had to say about the Oakland Bridge incident which occurred at 3:45 a.m. today:

"8,600 gallons of gasoline ignited....flames rose 200 feet into the air ... (temperatures) exceeded 2750 degrees and caused the steel beams... to buckle AND BOLTS HOLDING THE STRUCTURE TOGETHER

TO MELT,

LEADING TO COLLAPSE"

I wonder if the bolts were GALVANIZED STEEL?
And again I say...where is waterboy and UL in all this?
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Old 29th April 2007, 06:35 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Well this is what the Associated Press had to say about the Oakland Bridge incident which occurred at 3:45 a.m. today:

"8,600 gallons of gasoline ignited....flames rose 200 feet into the air ... (temperatures) exceeded 2750 degrees and caused the steel beams... to buckle AND BOLTS HOLDING THE STRUCTURE TOGETHER

TO MELT,

LEADING TO COLLAPSE"

I wonder if the bolts were GALVANIZED STEEL?
A-5-72 (aka A-36, just like the WTC) steel. Carbon steel. Not stainless (CRES)

How long does it take for your zinc embrittlement to occur in carbon steel (not stainless)?
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Old 29th April 2007, 06:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
(Temperatures) exceeded 2750 degrees and caused the steel beams... To buckle and bolts holding the structure together to melt
Ha...

From this page

Quote:
temperature of flame from burning petrol is 471°-560°C
Quote:
Melting Point of Steel 1100°-1600°C
How can a petrol fire get to 2750°F when petrol burns at only 1040°F, 972° lower than it need to melt steel??!!!??!!!1!!!!1111!!!
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Old 29th April 2007, 06:44 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Well this is what the Associated Press had to say about the Oakland Bridge incident which occurred at 3:45 a.m. today:

"8,600 gallons of gasoline ignited....flames rose 200 feet into the air ... (temperatures) exceeded 2750 degrees and caused the steel beams... to buckle AND BOLTS HOLDING THE STRUCTURE TOGETHER

TO MELT,

LEADING TO COLLAPSE"

I wonder if the bolts were GALVANIZED STEEL?
Where did the paper get this from? Have you ever known a paper to get everything right?
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Old 29th April 2007, 06:48 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
It was a conspirisy! They was supposed to 3" rebar on 4' centers. The C4 coating powderized them!
I've never been able to understand that (not the C4 coating part), can we have the figures in metric?
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Old 29th April 2007, 06:49 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Ha...

From this page




How can a petrol fire get to 2750°F when petrol burns at only 1040°F, 972° lower than it need to melt steel??!!!??!!!1!!!!1111!!!
They don't know Fourier's law:



or



let alone

Q = -hA(Ts – T)

And i am not going to tell them. Do you want to?
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Old 29th April 2007, 06:57 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
I've never been able to understand that (not the C4 coating part), can we have the figures in metric?
76.2mm rebar on 1.2192 m centers! 111 eleventy one!

eta--oops--Meters ane m's, not M's
dadgummed SIU!
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:00 PM   #48
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Please tell me they aren't talking about this at LC. Then again...should we expect any different?
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:05 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
They don't know Fourier's law:

http://www.efunda.com/formulae/heat_...ourier_law.gif

or

http://www.efunda.com/formulae/heat_...s/heat_eqn.gif

let alone

Q = -hA(Ts – T)

And i am not going to tell them. Do you want to?
Whatever you do, don't step in that. It sticks to your shoe and comes off on the carpet
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:07 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Please tell me they aren't talking about this at LC. Then again...should we expect any different?
I would but that would be a lie.
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Whatever you do, don't step in that. It sticks to your shoe and comes off on the carpet
Words of experience?
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:11 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Words of experience?
Yeah--I know when I'm in over my head--unlike some people I could name, but won't.
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:12 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Yeah--I know when I'm in over my head--unlike some people I could name, but won't.
You can name the Greek god...we won't laugh
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:40 PM   #54
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Fire can't bring down a major structure...but wind can?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_...ridge#Collapse
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:46 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Joshua Korosi View Post
Here's what you do. You make sure to get the truck's unit number (these are assigned by the gasoline company which owns the truck). Then you call the company's fuel depot and explain that you want that truck (for example, Truck 9112001) delivered to a specific address. The manager will likely have been trained to respond with "that truck is destroyed" or "it burnt up on the freeway on Saturday", or something similar. So you respond, firmly stating again that you need that truck to go to a specific address. If the manager keeps insisting the truck was destroyed, indicate with authority that "the truck needs to be moved - some people know it wasn't destroyed and they are looking for it." Then we make sure we have the depot staked out, and watch. The truck will show up, guaranteed.

Then you will know the truth.
And you have to match the serial number of every single part of the truck to the one allegedly involved in the crash. WHY HASN'T THE NTSB DONE THIS?! WHAT ARE THEY HIDING?
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:54 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Fire can't bring down a major structure...but wind can?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_...ridge#Collapse
Just to keep our Twoofers out, I'm gonna show you an equation that describes how a force vibration can get out of control: A=f(1/(wn^2-wf^2-2*z*wf*wn*j))
where wn is the natural frequency of the structure, wf is the frequency of the forcing function (turbulence shed off the bridge), and j=sqrt(-1)
as you can see, when wf=wn, all that keeps amplitude from being infinite is z, the damping factor. For that structure, that mode, z would be about 5-7% (0.05 to 0.07)...
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Last edited by rwguinn; 29th April 2007 at 07:57 PM. Reason: fixed latex
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Old 29th April 2007, 07:57 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
A-5-72 (aka A-36, just like the WTC) steel. Carbon steel. Not stainless (CRES)

How long does it take for your zinc embrittlement to occur in carbon steel (not stainless)?
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00009/art00016

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00012/art00019


I fail to see what Chromium Stainless steels have to do with a discussion of hydrogen Imbrittlement, in Galvanized steel because of the Chemical, and Electrical reaction of Zinc as an anode.
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Old 29th April 2007, 08:08 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Well this is what the Associated Press had to say about the Oakland Bridge incident which occurred at 3:45 a.m. today:

"8,600 gallons of gasoline ignited....flames rose 200 feet into the air ... (temperatures) exceeded 2750 degrees and caused the steel beams... to buckle AND BOLTS HOLDING THE STRUCTURE TOGETHER

TO MELT,

LEADING TO COLLAPSE"

I wonder if the bolts were GALVANIZED STEEL?
I am not at all surprised that news outlets would publish such things, but I find it difficult to believe that AP could possibly know the temperature at which the fire burned. Surely, it is too early for any specific forensic investigatory results to be known at this stage.

(Of course, that has never stopped news outlets from publishing conjecture; or from misconstruing what they have been told; or from misquoting what they have been told; or from misinterpreting what they have been told; or from leaping to conclusions and misapplying what they have been told.)
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Old 29th April 2007, 08:09 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00009/art00016

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00012/art00019


I fail to see what Chromium Stainless steels have to do with a discussion of hydrogen Imbrittlement, in Galvanized steel because of the Chemical, and Electrical reaction of Zinc as an anode.
You went and lost me there, podner.
Zinc embrittlement occurs, according to the links of the good doctor, in CRES primarily, not carbon steels. This was pointed out by gravy (link) yet Apollo20 presents it as a fact for carbon steels
My point is that even hydrogen embrittlement take time--hours-to-weeks depending on conditions. And it is a major, nasty process--quick, as such things go.
How long does it take for zinc embrittlement to occur in carbon steel, such that the reacton weakens very thick slabs of carbon steel, and is it quicker that the thermal weakening process?
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Old 29th April 2007, 08:37 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
You went and lost me there, podner.
Zinc embrittlement occurs, according to the links of the good doctor, in CRES primarily, not carbon steels. This was pointed out by gravy (link) yet Apollo20 presents it as a fact for carbon steels
My point is that even hydrogen embrittlement take time--hours-to-weeks depending on conditions. And it is a major, nasty process--quick, as such things go.
How long does it take for zinc embrittlement to occur in carbon steel, such that the reacton weakens very thick slabs of carbon steel, and is it quicker that the thermal weakening process?
In a High Acid environment, like in concrete with high sulfur levels, the reaction of the acid with zinc produces hydrogen Ion the metal absorbs them the amount of the acids and the temperature depend on the speed of the reaction.
It is a similar reaction to that of a Zinc Chloride battery.
I believe that Frank is confusing Zinc embrittlement with hydrogen embrittlement caused by Zinc which can be more rapid than zinc embrittlement because hydrogen can sneak in side the Crystals of the metals faster than the larger Zinc molecules.
To separate reactions one cause Zinc.
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Old 29th April 2007, 08:50 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
In a High Acid environment, like in concrete with high sulfur levels, the reaction of the acid with zinc produces hydrogen Ion the metal absorbs them the amount of the acids and the temperature depend on the speed of the reaction.
It is a similar reaction to that of a Zinc Chloride battery.
I believe that Frank is confusing Zinc embrittlement with hydrogen embrittlement caused by Zinc which can be more rapid than zinc embrittlement because hydrogen can sneak in side the Crystals of the metals faster than the larger Zinc molecules.
To separate reactions one cause Zinc.
I must take the blame here. Apollo20 never mentioned Hydrogen embrittlement--I did, as a comparison.
He went off on zinc embrittlement, as far as I can tell, as a likely contributor to the collapse of the towers.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
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Old 29th April 2007, 08:56 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
I must take the blame here. Apollo20 never mentioned Hydrogen embrittlement--I did, as a comparison.
He went off on zinc embrittlement, as far as I can tell, as a likely contributor to the collapse of the towers.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Normally hydrogen Embrittlement would take years because of the low hydrogen production in nature, but a fire and increasing the speed both of hydrogen product, and its reactions with metals as well as increased heating from its combustion certainly could have, and likely from the evidence did play a part in the collapses.
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Old 29th April 2007, 09:02 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Normally hydrogen Embrittlement would take years because of the low hydrogen production in nature, but a fire and increasing the speed both of hydrogen product, and its reactions with metals as well as increased heating from its combustion certainly could have, and likely from the evidence did play a part in the collapses.
we're way off topic here. I answered you in the "what do the buildings have in common" thread-let's try to keep it there, so we can be consistent, ok?
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Old 30th April 2007, 05:23 AM   #64
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How fast can zinc liqiud metal embrittlement, LME, occur?

LME-induced cracks propagate along grain boundaries at rates that may reach several meters per second if substantial amounts of elastic strain energy are present in the stressed solid, thus giving rise to descriptions of LME failure as "catastrophic brittle fracture."

Studies have shown that ferritic steels are susceptible to LME by molten zinc at temperatures of 450 deg C, while austenitic steels require temperatures of 750 deg C.

See "The Technical Lessons of Flixborough" The Chemical Engineer, April 1976.
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:36 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Fire can't bring down a major structure...but wind can?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_...ridge#Collapse

Wind? Or a SECRET GOVERNMENT WEATHER CONTROL DEVICE!
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:41 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
How fast can zinc liqiud metal embrittlement, LME, occur?

LME-induced cracks propagate along grain boundaries at rates that may reach several meters per second if substantial amounts of elastic strain energy are present in the stressed solid, thus giving rise to descriptions of LME failure as "catastrophic brittle fracture."

Studies have shown that ferritic steels are susceptible to LME by molten zinc at temperatures of 450 deg C, while austenitic steels require temperatures of 750 deg C.

See "The Technical Lessons of Flixborough" The Chemical Engineer, April 1976.
OK, that's the crack propigation rate in already embrittled steel. It says nothing about th embrittlement rate. P_leas don't confuse the two.
Now, at 750C, what is the penetration rate of Liquid metalic zinc into the steel at that temperature, which by the way is now at <60% of its original strength due to temperature effects?
second, how is this liquid metalic zinc getting into/onto the vertical support columns, which are at the ends of the floor pans, which pans are visibly and logicaly sagging in the middle? Unless you can show that unlike other fluids, Liquid metalic zinc flows against gravity, you need to show a mechanism.
Again, I am not doubting that these reactions occurred. I am simply having a great deal of difficulty visualizing the volume of reactants required, the mechanism for the occurance, and how they would be greater in effect than the thermal strength reduction
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Old 30th April 2007, 06:58 AM   #67
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I received an anonymous e-mail from "Mike B" who was at the scene and said he heard a countdown from 20 to 0 right before the collapse.

He is afraid to go public, for safety reasons.
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:07 AM   #68
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RWGUINN:

Please read up on the Flixborough Disaster and all will be revealed.

Or you could ask Gravy who appears to be very knowledgeable on LME...
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:26 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
RWGUINN:

Please read up on the Flixborough Disaster and all will be revealed.

Or you could ask Gravy who appears to be very knowledgeable on LME...
Nice diversion! Absolutly perfect non sequitur!
Ok, so you have oxidation of cyclohexane, which afik was not present at the bridge, WTC 1, 2 or 7, a temporary bypass pipe (20") designed by inexperienced engineers, with insufficient analysis and testing, bursting under high pressure, releasing a flamable gas, which ispersed in a cloud(being denser than air), and which was ignited by some source.
This relates to any of the Buildings/bridges/structuresundeer discussion in what way? Where is the H2 or Zn embrittlement? Where is the 750 degree ambient temperature it takes to form the gas.
I think we all know that has the ignition source been at the point of pipe rupture and operating at the time of rupture, there would have been no explosion.
Thishappens with reasonable frequency with gas stoves and water heaters in homes. The gas is leaking, collects, reaches the pilot light, and boom!
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:28 AM   #70
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Guys, guys, guys!!11

Don't Let Science Get In The Way. 4/28 Was An Inside Job!!!!!!!1111!
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:32 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Or you could ask Gravy who appears to be very knowledgeable on LME...
What the heck is it with this childish mad-on against Gravy?
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:50 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Nice diversion! Absolutly perfect non sequitur!
<<snip diescription of disaster>>
I'm sorry--I was thinking non sequitur in the sense of the absurd.
What Apollo20 did was lay a red herring at our feet
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Old 30th April 2007, 07:56 AM   #73
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"This was pointed out by gravy (link) yet Apollo20 presents it as a fact for carbon steels..."

RWGUINN: Please go to a Science Library and do a REAL search on LME.

Otherwise you are wasting my time!
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:08 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
"This was pointed out by gravy (link) yet Apollo20 presents it as a fact for carbon steels..."

RWGUINN: Please go to a Science Library and do a REAL search on LME.

Otherwise you are wasting my time!
No, Doctor--if you truly are one-
You are wasting ours.
You drag a red herring across the path in an attempt to confuse us with irrelevance, refuse to address questions and concerns pointed at your hypothesis, cannot describe any mechanism by which your hypothesis could be true, cannot point to any evidence (in the case under discussion) that could support your hypothesis, and you accuse others of wasting your time?

I am reminded of th physics prof I had in college who tried to flunk the engineers because we used the Law of Cosines in a vector analysis problem. "It isn't a 90 degree angle!" he claimed. We had to go to the Dean of the department to get it corrected. Next semester he as teaching "Philosophy of Physics"
Grow up, sir. Act like a scientist. either support your hypothesis, modify it, or abandon it.

(oh--I guess it would also help if you clarly stated your hypothesis, too)
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I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:51 AM   #75
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Does this argument remind anybody else of a three stooges episode? Cmon guys....what the hell does your pissing match have to do with anything in this thread?
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:53 AM   #76
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Oh Aptly Named RGUINN:

Others?

No, I said YOU were wasting my time!
Please read up on the Flixborough Disaster!
I have given you a reference; have you read the article?
From your last few posts it suggests you haven't...
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Old 30th April 2007, 08:54 AM   #77
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Does this argument remind anybody else of a three stooges episode? Cmon guys....what the hell does your pissing match have to do with anything in this thread?
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Old 30th April 2007, 09:01 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Oh Aptly Named RGUINN:

Others?

No, I said YOU were wasting my time!
Please read up on the Flixborough Disaster!
I have given you a reference; have you read the article?
From your last few posts it suggests you haven't...
No--you did not provide a link. I looked it up, and I gave you a link to the official report.
I am done with a "Scientist" who cannot even state his hypothesis, much less show any evidence in support, or provide any mechanism for its actuality.
I call troll.
so, ~enigma~
you can get back to whatever it is you object to.
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"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
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I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
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Old 30th April 2007, 09:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
RWGUINN:

Please read up on the Flixborough Disaster and all will be revealed.

Or you could ask Gravy who appears to be very knowledgeable on LME...
Yes, I came across the Flixborough incident. It concerns zinc embrittlement of stainless steel. Your point?
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Old 30th April 2007, 09:39 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Oh Aptly Named RGUINN:

Others?

No, I said YOU were wasting my time!
Please read up on the Flixborough Disaster!
I have given you a reference; have you read the article?
From your last few posts it suggests you haven't...
Ok, whomever you are.
Zinc embrittlement can occur in Stainless steel under 6.5 ksi stress and at a temperature of 800C in a matter of seconds. Thank you, gravy, for the extra link the doctor did not provide and insisted he did.
The situation remains the same. Poor design, poor analysis, no testing led to failure. To state that zinc embrittlement caused the failure would be a stretch. It was a contributor to the failure, but not the reason for the failure.
And no relationship to the towers or bridge, which were A-36 steel, not stainless steel. In other words, a red herring.
G'bye, doc. write when you can tell us what your hypothesis actually is.
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I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
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