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Tags 911 conspiracy theory , 911 debunking resources , 911 links , wtc , wtc 7

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Old 10th September 2007, 10:30 PM   #161
Gravy
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Originally Posted by Toro View Post
Cool.

Thanks for your work.
My pleasure. Thanks for reading.

Originally Posted by terryfunk4life View Post
Just wondering any chance of a ground zeros part 2? Also make sure you are there on sept 11 because someone needs to be there so they don't get there "facts" across. Or better yet just send mongo!
There is another, better GZ video in the works. I've put it aside for a while because I've been busy with other things, but it should be done this month. I've dispatched Mongo to deal with the truthers.

Originally Posted by cmcaulif View Post
Use of High-Efficiency Energy Absorbing Device to Arrest Progressive Collapse of Tall Building Qing Zhou and T. X. Yu Journal of Engineering Mechanics 130, 1177 (2004)

Recent advances in fire–structure analysis
Fire Safety Journal, In Press, Corrected Proof, Available online 20 August 2007,
Dat Duthinh, Kevin McGrattan and Abed Khaskia

Coupled fire dynamics and thermal response of complex building structures
Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, Volume 30, Issue 2, January 2005, Pages 2255-2262 Kuldeep Prasad and Howard R. Baum

Prasad and Baum is somewhat redundant since it is used directly in NCSTAR1-5F and G, but it is worth reading nonetheless.

and also:

http://nistreview.org/WTC7-COLLAPSE-SCHEUERMAN.pdf

sorry if any of these are repeats, I tried to find new sources that I had found personally useful.
Good stuff. I shall add them. I highly recommend the Scheuerman paper. He's an ex-FDNY Battalion Chief and an expert on high rise fires and building collapse.
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Old 25th October 2007, 02:01 AM   #162
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So you are Mark Roberts?

Last edited by bofors; 25th October 2007 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 25th October 2007, 03:13 AM   #163
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Is Ronald Wieck here too?
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Old 25th October 2007, 03:15 AM   #164
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What is the relationship of JREF with the Hardfire program?
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Old 25th October 2007, 08:03 AM   #165
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No official relationship that I'm aware of. Meaning they do not speak officialy for or represent JREF in any capacity. They just happen to post here. And they just have alot of fellow posters here who agree, for the most part, with thier views.
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Old 25th October 2007, 08:58 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by bofors View Post
So you are Mark Roberts?
I am. Hello.

Originally Posted by bofors View Post
Is Ronald Wieck here too?
Yes, he posts here as "pomeroo."
Originally Posted by bofors View Post
What is the relationship of JREF with the Hardfire program?
There is none, nor do members of this forum speak for the JREF, except for administrators posting about JREF policy or the infrequent post by James Randi. Ron Wieck is an occasional host of Hardfire, which is a cable-access TV show in New York City.
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Old 26th October 2007, 06:28 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by CJOKUSAP View Post
Does that not seem like a reasonable request or demand, when the future of "Democracy" is at stake?
Indeed you should be inquisitive, skeptical and doubt aspects presented mainstream'ishly if you will, however, one shouldn't make crap up or throw wild speculations around like candy (like Alex Jones does all too often).

Naturally the US Government, from a variety of intelligence sources, reports etc, recieve threats and information about possible terrorist activity and plans every day throughout the year. But... was the information concerning 9/11 enough for an interception?
Did the Government simply drop the ball on obvious enough information, or was it too inconclusive and too late? Or did they purposely turn a blind-eye to very specific information that could have caused and interception of the hijackers?
This is what I ment with it leading to wild speculation.

To establish a link between Mossad, CIA, FBI and prior knowledge of the actual hijackers and the actual plans is prone to cause such short-handed speculations, chasing after rainbows and theories that are virtually impossible to establish from any bits of known information, satisfyingly that is.
To establish such a link, we would first have to see that the Mossad, CIA and or FBI had enough information on the specific terrorists and their plans, to intercept the actual hijackers before they could have acted on their plans. We must know that they did have it, not just assume or guess.

This is exactly where the unfalsifiable pitch comes calling;"Well the Feds must have buried the evidence" or what have you. It sounds cute and it could be true but so "could" a lot of things. It is not coherent nor advisable to use such an excuse as a way of maintaining an already handicapped thesis.

If they (the US Government) didn't have enough information to intercept them (the perps), then the issue is a non-sequitor. Because, if the US Government were to close down airlines over the country or parts of it, airports due to every threat as so, me thinks that they would more or less have to be shut down for most parts of the year. I doubt there's a shortage on threats and warnings about terrorist activity, nor plans thereof.

A further comparison necessary for people eager to connect Mossad or the US Government with the "prior knowledge" issue as so, would be to find some sort of comparison between the plethora of different threats, warnings etc during the months before 9/11. Studying the nature of each and every element of threat, evaluating the necessities for investigating a particular threat more closely, evaluating the possible ways to circumvent the threat before hand through gathering up enough information to pin-point the dates, targets, suspects etc without causing too much social chaos or disturbance (shutting down airports, grounding planes and so forth due to suspicions based on too inconclusive reports or rumours is generally shunned, this is something I do know about law enforcement and intelligence work)

The main point is that, if it is to be called an "inside job" by any stretch of ones imagination, there had to have been enough incriminating information and viable leads for the US Government to do an interception on the given hijackers prior to 9/11.
If there wasn't enough leads/information leading up through the terrorist-string to these specific muslims and their specific plans prior to 9/11 then not any branch of the Government can be considered a co-conspirator as so.
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Old 7th November 2007, 04:45 PM   #168
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Gravy, I have more 9/11 debunking links from our good friends at PhysicsForums.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=85541v
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=79062
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Old 7th November 2007, 05:10 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by anticonspiracy911 View Post
Gravy, I have more 9/11 debunking links from our good friends at PhysicsForums.
Thanks, but those are pretty old, and I don't see anything that hasn't been covered concisely elsewhere. I didn't read all the pages, though.
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What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

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Old 7th November 2007, 05:14 PM   #170
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i wasn't sure exactly where to make this post, but i just wanted to say to gravy in particular, thank you for helping me realize how stupid it was to believe what was said in loose change. the first time i saw it i just accepted most of what they were telling me (not everything they said tricked me) i think partially because i just gave them the benefit of the doubt and also i suspect illogically because of a dislike for the bush administration.

in any event, that all changed when i saw your debate with the loose change kids on hardfire. it was like it woke me up from a nonsensical dream or something and i immediately realized how ridiculous it was for me to have agreed with what was presented in that "documentary". since then i've tried to educate myself a lot on this subject so that i can debate the conspiracy theorists and try to make them realize how wrong their views on september 11th are or at least so that i can offer a voice of reason to people who are hearing about it for the first time.

again, i just wanted to thank you personally for helping me realize the errors of my ways, and to thank you in general for all of the work you're doing.
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Old 7th November 2007, 05:35 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Thanks, but those are pretty old, and I don't see anything that hasn't been covered concisely elsewhere. I didn't read all the pages, though.
Yeah, I know they are, but it's still a good reference. They don't accept any more threads about that nonsense on that forum and for good reason.
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Old 7th November 2007, 05:36 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by AlexChiu View Post
i wasn't sure exactly where to make this post, but i just wanted to say to gravy in particular, thank you for helping me realize how stupid it was to believe what was said in loose change. the first time i saw it i just accepted most of what they were telling me (not everything they said tricked me) i think partially because i just gave them the benefit of the doubt and also i suspect illogically because of a dislike for the bush administration.

in any event, that all changed when i saw your debate with the loose change kids on hardfire. it was like it woke me up from a nonsensical dream or something and i immediately realized how ridiculous it was for me to have agreed with what was presented in that "documentary". since then i've tried to educate myself a lot on this subject so that i can debate the conspiracy theorists and try to make them realize how wrong their views on september 11th are or at least so that i can offer a voice of reason to people who are hearing about it for the first time.

again, i just wanted to thank you personally for helping me realize the errors of my ways, and to thank you in general for all of the work you're doing.
We've all had our doubts and temptations in our mind before. Just think of Gravy and inspire to be him.
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Old 19th November 2007, 05:35 PM   #173
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Gravy,

I've got to ask you about your binder. Do you have other stuff on other subjects in it or is it just a 9/11 conspiracy binder?
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Old 24th November 2007, 01:15 AM   #174
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Gravy,

I found a very good source that discusses the nuttery of 9/11 conspiracy theories as well as science and pseudoscience in general.

9/11 Nuttery: http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/911NutPhysics.HTM

(EDIT: Nevermind. I see you have this link posted already. The link to the index is a worthy link though.)

Index Page:

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSCINDX.HTM

Last edited by anticonspiracy911; 24th November 2007 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 26th November 2007, 03:24 PM   #175
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In page 1 of this thread are several complimentary references to "Gravy's video," the super-big one. Would anyone care to clue me in on which of the hundreds of links offered here we are talking about? I have a fast connection and I don't mind downloading anything under a Terrabyte.
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Old 26th November 2007, 07:06 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
In page 1 of this thread are several complimentary references to "Gravy's video," the super-big one. Would anyone care to clue me in on which of the hundreds of links offered here we are talking about? I have a fast connection and I don't mind downloading anything under a Terrabyte.
The video is on Google Video now, so you don't have to download it:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...37229146&hl=en

From the Papers, Videos and Appearances page:
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/some...sandvideosbyme
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Old 20th December 2007, 09:02 PM   #177
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Have you read "Hand Waving” the Physics of 9/11 " by David Griscom?
Griscom with 185 peer reviewed papers is one of the worlds most respected scientist.
I was wondering why anybody would take Mark Roberts take on scientific issues over somebody like Griscom? Roberts has no qualifications that I can find. While Griscom is one of the most sourced scientist in the world. Nist's own James Quintiere says nist investigation was "blocked from seeking answers" and Quintiere wants a new independent investigation. Doesn't that prove what Steven Jones & company have been saying all along?
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Old 20th December 2007, 09:10 PM   #178
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Welcome to the forums, lisabob2.

Feel free to start a thread about what's wrong with physical explanations provided by the 9/11 investigators. I recommend that you first use the forum search function, since these issues have likely been discussed before.

As for my errors, there is an active thread about them. If you have a problem with my work, please discuss it there.

lisabob2, what do I get wrong?

Oh, and for people who prefer videos, I'll have a little video available tonight that demonstates how incompetent and dishonest Steven Jones et al are.
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Old 20th December 2007, 09:13 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by AlexChiu View Post
i wasn't sure exactly where to make this post, but i just wanted to say to gravy in particular, thank you for helping me realize how stupid it was to believe what was said in loose change. the first time i saw it i just accepted most of what they were telling me (not everything they said tricked me) i think partially because i just gave them the benefit of the doubt and also i suspect illogically because of a dislike for the bush administration.

in any event, that all changed when i saw your debate with the loose change kids on hardfire. it was like it woke me up from a nonsensical dream or something and i immediately realized how ridiculous it was for me to have agreed with what was presented in that "documentary". since then i've tried to educate myself a lot on this subject so that i can debate the conspiracy theorists and try to make them realize how wrong their views on september 11th are or at least so that i can offer a voice of reason to people who are hearing about it for the first time.

again, i just wanted to thank you personally for helping me realize the errors of my ways, and to thank you in general for all of the work you're doing.
Sorry I missed this post last month, Alex, and thanks!

Originally Posted by anticonspiracy911 View Post
Gravy,

I've got to ask you about your binder. Do you have other stuff on other subjects in it or is it just a 9/11 conspiracy binder?
It's just 9/11 stuff and recipes. I use different binders for tour guiding, mostly with old photos.
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What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links

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Old 5th January 2008, 04:15 PM   #180
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Big site update complete. See here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=102734
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Old 6th January 2008, 01:24 AM   #181
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Gravy,

Here's another great video to add to the video links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu1yj...9D3338&index=0
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Old 6th January 2008, 04:00 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by anticonspiracy911 View Post
Gravy,

Here's another great video to add to the video links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu1yj...9D3338&index=0
I appreciate his frustration, but the "Choke and die already" haranguing is a bit much for inclusion in a debunking video, IMO.
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What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links
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Old 14th January 2008, 04:02 PM   #183
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Mark, nice site.

I have been looking for one bit of info though which I don't see here.

I have a 'truth mover' trying to tell me that cutting torches do not leave slag. He is looking at the cuts made on the still standing vertical columns made by the rescue/clean up crews and, of course, claiming thermite(ate).

Do you have an authoritative site of steel cutting and perhaps pictures of columns being cut at the WTC 'pile' illustrating that when an operator does not care if the cut is nice and smooth then a fast cut will indeed leave slag solidifying on the piece?
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Old 14th January 2008, 05:46 PM   #184
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Yar: Photos of WTC torch-cut steel, comparison to thermite cut

It's important to point out that not only do the cut WTC columns have all the characteristics of torch cutting, but that they have none of the characteristics of being cut by an incendiary like thermite. Truthers really need to take a trip to their local welding shop.
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Old 1st May 2008, 10:32 AM   #185
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First post here

I'm new here *waves* - but I can't resist this subject. I started with one of the links in the original post and burrowed through everything I could find, 5 hours later I must say that is the most informative collection of 9/11 anecdotes and eye witness accounts I have ever come across. Thank you, Gravy

I live in Western Australia. I wasn't watching TV the night the attacks happened, and I rocked up at work and everyone was abuzz - the WTC has been attacked! The buildings have collapsed! Yeah right, is all I thought, these guys are pulling my leg... But as the day wore on, everyone was talking about it, and I managed to find some time to catch the ceaseless news reports, and I simply could not believe what I was seeing.

So many people lost their lives, I think that is what hit me the hardest was the simple waste of it all, and while I do not necessarily agree with every US foreign policy I absolutely abhor the use of terror attacks on innocent people, regardless of the situation. I think the way my mind works is after I've witnessed a tragedy - even if I'm on the other side of the globe - I try and find a way to reason it out, why did it happen, how could it have been prevented, could similar events be prevented in the future...

I got dragged into the whole conspiracy aspect for a while, I guess it gave easy answers, as they take seemingly logical arguments based on the US political interference in the middle east, trade sanctions, starving children in third world countries or whatever the emotional plea may be for the specific brand of conspiracy, then weave in these little snippets of extra stuff that I guess just gets accepted along with the convincing side of the argument.

As time has passed I began to see through these competing theories... It all came down to this for me: Why spend the time and expense rigging a building with high explosives - when you could just get a few of your minions, train them in basic flight simulators, give them some box cutters and get them to steal a jumbo jet which being full of jet fuel would basically be a thermobaric and incendiary weapon rolled into one. Why go to all those covert little secret plans that would be difficult to plan and execute if you have a simple and cheap alternative that would be just as effective? And if you did rig the explosives, why in dogs name would you crash a plane into the building?

These were questions I could not answer for myself satisfactorily.

So I saw through the conspiracy lies, but I never came across anything that presented the other side of the story as fully and as detailed as this thread.

Again, thank you for lending more weight to my new perspective that this was a simple and horrific act of terror. I feel a bit silly about my previous perspective, although I think to an extent fear was responsible for my latching onto something, anything to explain why so many people died.

I still think there is a possibility of twisted political motivations, but I'm tired of trying to untangle the web of conspiracy, counter conspiracy and counter-counter conspiracy. I just want to come home and have a beer after work and not worry about all the problems of the world anymore...

But thanks for laying it all out so clear, you obviously put a lot of time and effort into it.

I hope my admissions to being a former conspiracy-considerer don't cop me too much flak. I was only going off the information available to me at the time. Yeah thats my excuse
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Old 4th May 2008, 04:42 AM   #186
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Thanks for your honesty, Humanoid. Kudos on finding a rational path out of the conspiracy mire. I'm sure Gravy appreciates your gratitude, even though he no longer posts in this sub-forum.

Welcome to the JREF forum, by the way.
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Old 6th May 2008, 05:06 AM   #187
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Thanks Orphia Nay, I guess the one advantage of having being a sucker is knowing how to spot the signs that I am being drawn in again. It was a very educational experience.

Thankfully there are the Gravy's of the world to gently nudge (or sledge) us back to the other side.
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Old 9th May 2008, 12:00 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by orphia nay View Post
Thanks for your honesty, Humanoid. Kudos on finding a rational path out of the conspiracy mire. I'm sure Gravy appreciates your gratitude, even though he no longer posts in this sub-forum.

Welcome to the JREF forum, by the way.
Why does he no longer post in this subforum?
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Old 10th May 2008, 03:55 PM   #189
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As I understand it, there was a pay dispute with the NWO. Ordinarily, that couldn't happen, but it seems his pictures of NWO Kitty and that French poodle are distributed around the internet in the form of a widely dispersed computer virus. The virus is passive, but if it doesn't receive the correct encrypted token periodically, it goes active, and begins releasing the photos to all the big media, like People, and National Enquirer, and Cat Fancy.
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Old 11th May 2008, 09:18 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by anticonspiracy911 View Post
Why does he no longer post in this subforum?
He's spent so many years, with painstaking research, on the 9/11 conspiracy theories. He felt there was else in life for him to pursue as it is, besides... Gravy has pretty much rambed the tombstone down enough times for his shift to be covered infinitum.
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Old 11th May 2008, 09:09 PM   #191
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Does Gravy know a lot of links are dead?
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Old 19th July 2008, 09:32 AM   #192
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False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear like they are being carried out by other entities. The name is derived from the military concept of flying false colors; that is, flying the flag of a country other than one's own. False flag operations are not limited to war and counter-insurgency operations, and have been used in peace-time; for example, during Italy's strategy of tension.

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Old 19th July 2008, 09:33 AM   #193
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Pseudo operations are those in which forces of one power disguised themselves as enemy forces and, more specifically, when the power is a state, and the other power an insurgency, then as insurgents, often with the aid of defectors, to operate as teams to infiltrate insurgent areas. [8] The aim of such pseudo-operations may either be to gather short, or long-term intelligence, to discredit the enemy, to reduce the civilian support of the enemy, or to engage in active operations, in particular assassinations of important enemies. However, they usually involve both, as the risks of exposure highly increase with time, and thus lead to violent confrontation. Pseudo-operations may be directed by police forces, military, or both. Police forces are usually best suited to intelligence tasks; however, military provide the structure needed to back up such pseudo-ops with military response forces. According to US military Lawrence Cline (2005), "the teams typically have been controlled by police services, but this largely was due to the weaknesses in the respective military intelligence systems."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

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Old 9th March 2009, 10:12 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by bofors View Post
So you are Mark Roberts?
In Wikipedia: Mark_Roberts_(Debunker)

I feel the article related to him is a stub. Can someone help by expanding it?
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Old 9th March 2009, 11:02 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by RicHard-59 View Post
In Wikipedia: Mark_Roberts_(Debunker)

I feel the article related to him is a stub. Can someone help by expanding it?
Give me a few minutes. I usually expand quite a bit after eating at Happy Fresh Taco.
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Old 26th May 2009, 09:35 AM   #196
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Total noob here. Just wanted to thank Mark Roberts for his tireless work. I recently became fully aware of just how deep the "truthers" had become entrenched in the pile of garbage that is their theories. I have a co-worker who is entirely convinced that the buildings were imploded, the government is behind it, etc. etc. So I decided to do my own research and found Mark's contributions to be invaluable to my inevitable conclusion.

Arguing with a truther is an exercise in futility. I won't be able to convince my co-worker of the accuracy of my point of view, just as he won't be able to convince me of his. But it is settled in my own mind, and that is the most important thing.
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Old 27th May 2009, 03:20 AM   #197
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Welcome to the forum, Chorduroy. I'm glad to see that doing your own research led you to Mark's site and to reason. As for your friend, I'm glad you have seen the futility of the debate. It must be hard enough being a twoofer, what with all the paranoia, frustration and contradictions, without having facts rubbed in your face too.
Hope you stick around. The forum has a lot to offer besides good 9/11 debunking.
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Old 27th May 2009, 11:59 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by orphia nay View Post
Welcome to the forum, Chorduroy. I'm glad to see that doing your own research led you to Mark's site and to reason. As for your friend, I'm glad you have seen the futility of the debate. It must be hard enough being a twoofer, what with all the paranoia, frustration and contradictions, without having facts rubbed in your face too.
Hope you stick around. The forum has a lot to offer besides good 9/11 debunking.
Thanks! I'm looking forward to digging in and sharpening my critical thinking skills in general.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 04:32 AM   #199
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Hey Gravy.

I have a question. I have been following your work, and I greatly appreciate all of it, but some of the things you have done are missing from the net.

For example your video, World Trade center not a controlled demoliton was on google video at
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...11926#12m50s**
but now it says
Quote:
We're sorry, but this video may not be available.

If this video was recently uploaded, it may still be processing.
If this video is yours, you can check its status.

To see more videos visit our home page.
did you remove it? Or was it taken down for some other reason?

I have found a few more places on your wtc7lies page where there used to be information, but now they are missing/broken links.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 07:30 PM   #200
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Hi, TL.

Thank you for your kind words. Google has a bot that compares uploaded videos to videos in their database, for potential copyright infringements. U.S. law "fair use provisions," which I would invoke if a lawsuit were involved, don't apply here.

I don't spend any time on this stuff in the past few years, and I recommend that you move on as well. In my opinion, giving attention to a tiny smattering of "truthers" remaining, only encourages their idiocy.

Best,
Mark


Originally Posted by TruthersLie View Post
Hey Gravy.

I have a question. I have been following your work, and I greatly appreciate all of it, but some of the things you have done are missing from the net.

For example your video, World Trade center not a controlled demoliton was on google video at
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...11926#12m50s**
but now it says


did you remove it? Or was it taken down for some other reason?

I have found a few more places on your wtc7lies page where there used to be information, but now they are missing/broken links.
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