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Old 30th September 2022, 06:01 PM   #1561
8enotto
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The JW door to door stuff is all based on the last sermon they heard. They are prepared to present a show based on the latest knowledge and not debate anything else.

I asked one if it was still ok to kill my sons if they are disobedient or sell my daughters into slavery, because it says I can in his holy book.
He didn't want to discuss that even if he swears his holy book is The Word of God itself.

Ummm, yeah. It's not easy going in half prepared.
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Old 1st October 2022, 12:47 AM   #1562
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I'm unstable.
Yeah no ****.
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Old 1st October 2022, 12:49 AM   #1563
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So I was fencing on Sunday and strained my shoulder (my left shoulder which is not my sword arm so, odd). So is a god telling me to stop fencing? As it was not my sword arm and I can't think of why I strained it, is there some other message? Or am I just a 50-year-old guy who gets strains sometimes because that's what happens when you're 50?
No really what does TOB say about this. I'm bouting French small sword on Sunday so I need to know.
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Old 1st October 2022, 02:10 PM   #1564
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
No really what does TOB say about this. I'm bouting French small sword on Sunday so I need to know.
LEFT = Evil + SHOULDER = Planned Course of Action
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Old 1st October 2022, 03:38 PM   #1565
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
LEFT = Evil + SHOULDER = Planned Course of Action
Oh that helps. I think I'll just fence in my bouts and not worry about it.
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Old 1st October 2022, 05:08 PM   #1566
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Oh that helps. I think I'll just fence in my bouts and not worry about it.

Well that would be carrying out a planned course of action.


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Old 2nd October 2022, 01:14 AM   #1567
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In the interests of maintaining good relations, I apologize to JayUtah for my negative remark. It was uncalled for and I shouldn't have said it,
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Old 2nd October 2022, 01:35 AM   #1568
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In the interests of maintaining good relations you should either offer objective evidence for your claims - or at least propose some kind of test protocol to obtain it - or withdraw them.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 02:02 AM   #1569
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
In the interests of maintaining good relations you should either offer objective evidence for your claims - or at least propose some kind of test protocol to obtain it - or withdraw them.
I will say this: it's not a scientific theory -- yet. I don't have objective evidence for it.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:06 AM   #1570
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I will say this: it's not a scientific theory -- yet. I don't have objective evidence for it.
It will never be a scientific theory because you not only have no objective evidence for it, but you cannot even imagine a way to obtain some. You cannot even grasp why it's necessary to do so before anyone, including you yourself, can conclude there is anything to it.

In the absence of objective evidence, experience of umpteen similar crackpot ideas is ample reason to reject it and conclude that your perception that it works is mistaken - an artifact of the cognitive biases you have been steadfastly refusing to even attempt to understand, despite many patient attempts to educate you.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:12 AM   #1571
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I will say this: it's not a scientific theory -- yet. I don't have objective evidence for it.
One wonders, though, why people are so antagonistic towards TOBS, to the point of issuing death threats to me and lambasting me over it. It must be touching some nerves.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:21 AM   #1572
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
One wonders, though, why people are so antagonistic towards TOBS, to the point of issuing death threats to me and lambasting me over it.
Which people have issued death threats? Name them.

Quote:
It must be touching some nerves.
It's wilful ignorance that touches my nerves. Deliberately turning your back on the mountain of knowledge and understanding which has been painstakingly accumulated by generations of humanity's greatest minds in order to wallow in a compost heap of ignorance and superstition is, for me, the equivalent of what you would call blasphemy.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:25 AM   #1573
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
In the interests of maintaining good relations, I apologize to JayUtah for my negative remark. It was uncalled for and I shouldn't have said it,
Get a grip dude. Your negative remarks suck. You couldn't negative remark your way out of a paper bag. Don't apologize, get better at it.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:29 AM   #1574
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It will never be a scientific theory because you not only have no objective evidence for it, but you cannot even imagine a way to obtain some. You cannot even grasp why it's necessary to do so before anyone, including you yourself, can conclude there is anything to it.

In the absence of objective evidence, experience of umpteen similar crackpot ideas is ample reason to reject it and conclude that your perception that it works is mistaken - an artifact of the cognitive biases you have been steadfastly refusing to even attempt to understand, despite many patient attempts to educate you.
When people who are aware of TOBS have watched the body signals for decades like I have, then I'll be more likely to give weight to their conclusions.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:35 AM   #1575
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Who has issued death threats?
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:36 AM   #1576
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
When people who are aware of TOBS have watched the body signals for decades like I have, then I'll be more likely to give weight to their conclusions.
This just demonstrates your ignorance, as it would deserve no weight whatsoever.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:43 AM   #1577
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I'll do it.
I tried but I actually can't because it won't accept my email address. It just says "please enter a value"
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:47 AM   #1578
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Which people have issued death threats? Name them.


It's wilful ignorance that touches my nerves. Deliberately turning your back on the mountain of knowledge and understanding which has been painstakingly accumulated by generations of humanity's greatest minds in order to wallow in a compost heap of ignorance and superstition is, for me, the equivalent of what you would call blasphemy.
I don't know their names. They are evangelical Christians to whom I taught TOBS informally.

To me, it's willful ignorance to not believe in TOBS. You put your faith in man when it should be in God.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 03:51 AM   #1579
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I don't know their names. They are evangelical Christians to whom I taught TOBS informally.

To me, it's willful ignorance to not believe in TOBS. You put your faith in man when it should be in God.
God is a **** up.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 06:07 AM   #1580
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
One wonders, though, why people are so antagonistic towards TOBS, to the point of issuing death threats to me and lambasting me over it. It must be touching some nerves.
Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I don't know their names. They are evangelical Christians to whom I taught TOBS informally.
It would really help if you would have a conversation with the people participating in the conversation. Talking to or about some anonymous people from an unknown group somewhere elsewhere isn't productive or persuasive.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 06:44 AM   #1581
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
To me, it's willful ignorance to not believe in TOBS. You put your faith in man when it should be in God.

You, a man, say we should put our faith in God rather than what you are, man.

But you, a man, say you know what God is saying. So when you say we should put our faith in God you really mean we should put our faith in your (a man's) ability to know what God is saying. But that would not be putting our faith in God, it would be putting our faith in you, a man. Which is the very thing you say we should not do.

In other words, you are advising us to believe what you say and not believe what you say at the same time. If you were talking to an evil computer in a Star Trek original series episode, it would start blinking its lights frantically and then explode. (Fortunately we're better at handling contradictions, paradoxes, and illogic.)

Who says we should put our faith in anything, or that if we do, man and God are the only choices?
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Old 2nd October 2022, 06:49 AM   #1582
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I don't know their names. They are evangelical Christians to whom I taught TOBS informally.
They probably have their own crackpot theories, which your crackpot theory contradicts. Only crackpots could possibly find your crackpot theory more worthy of threats than laughter.

Quote:
To me, it's willful ignorance to not believe in TOBS.
There is no definition of wilful ignorance which could make that a sensible statement.

Quote:
You put your faith in man when it should be in God.
I put my faith in the methodology which has doubled average life expectancy, reduced child mortality from 50% to less than 5%, and discovered everything we now know about the marvellous universe in which we live. You put yours in the superstition which produced nothing during the millenia it dominated humanity's thinking except death and misery.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 08:39 AM   #1583
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
In the interests of maintaining good relations, I apologize to JayUtah for my negative remark. It was uncalled for and I shouldn't have said it,
Thanks, that's gracious of you.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I will say this: it's not a scientific theory -- yet. I don't have objective evidence for it.
Correct, you don't have objective evidence. But worse, your hypothesis is not logically consistent yet. It predicts individual variation among observations that cannot individually vary. You have to fix that first. Below you say it's "willful ignorance" to not to believe you. That's considerably arrogant when you admit you have no testable evidence. Rejection of your claim is the appropriate position given your situation. May I remind you that you yourself have rejected and reaffirmed TOBS multiple times in this thread?

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
One wonders, though, why people are so antagonistic towards TOBS, to the point of issuing death threats to me and lambasting me over it. It must be touching some nerves.
No, TOBS is not touching nerves, and you are not right because you think people are nervous. You are not being persecuted for your faith. You've provided no evidence that you have received threats, deathly or otherwise.

You're arrogantly claiming to speak for God, at least as far as TOBS is concerned, and demanding that people you know do not share your beliefs accept your role. You are generally unreceptive to the criticism receive, no matter how well reasoned. You are generally unable to support your beliefs with any sort of evidence, but insist on stating them over and over again as if they were revealed truth. You are touching nerves, but this is due to your behavior. You reap what you sow.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
When people who are aware of TOBS have watched the body signals for decades like I have, then I'll be more likely to give weight to their conclusions.
No, your observation is not superior to anyone else's. You have failed to control for your own biases. You have failed to state a criterion by which observation may be controlled, even in your own case. It is not the length of experience that validates observation. Instead it is the protocol by which those observations are made.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I don't know their names. They are evangelical Christians to whom I taught TOBS informally.
Do you have any verifiable evidence that "evangelical Christians" or any other person has made a death threat against you? Either provide the evidence or stop making the claim. We have no interest in being either participants or an audience to your persecution complex.

Quote:
To me, it's willful ignorance to not believe in TOBS. You put your faith in man when it should be in God.
And this is just more of the arrogance and condescension for which you are being justly mocked. TOBS is not part of your or any religion. You have no basis for claiming God will validate your claims. You are not superior to others because you've chosen to believe in unproven (in some cases) and disproven (and other cases) propositions.

I put my faith in things that demonstrate reliability when observed and tested. I have yet to find a deity that can demonstrate its own existence, much less any degree of reliability.

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Old 2nd October 2022, 08:59 AM   #1584
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
I don't know their names. They are evangelical Christians to whom I taught TOBS informally.

To me, it's willful ignorance to not believe in TOBS. You put your faith in man when it should be in God.
Billy, you BELIEVE in a god but cannot offer any, even the smallest of evidence of its existence. Repeatedly stating a strong belief isn't evidence.

That is the entire base of your chosen religion and your pet theory.
It has no foundation you can cite, just ancient fairy tales from when man had near zero of the knowledge we have today.
Knowledge that is testable and repeatable by human means. No supernatural means required.

Do you see the difference? It doesn't matter if you accept it as truth as much as if you just understand the difference.

I respect that you hold these beliefs, as do most people in the meat world around me. I respect them too, as individuals but I do not share thier beliefs.

This has become a case of agreement to disagree here on isf. We heard you out, pried for key information and found that you simply cannot give anything we could consider as solid evidence.
By the same token you have stated to accept your claims it helps to become a real believer in the Mormon church and dive hard into the concept of sin, repentance and all that, then tack on your theory accepting it as you stated without question.
None of that is testable or repeatable, it actually helps to blindly accept and believe without a single thought on our part. In fact we are discouraged to think for ourselves.
(now, just why is your own church and some fundy guys out to silence you?). You promote the very non questioning position you suffer under. No wonder, it's part of your mental conditioning.

That's not a safe way to go through life. I don't want to be lead anywhere by a church or anyone to the level of my financial choices.

So can we agree to disagree?
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Old 2nd October 2022, 10:13 AM   #1585
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Let me circle back on a couple of things.

Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
To me, it's willful ignorance to not believe in TOBS.
To me it's willful arrogance to demand that people who have chosen to believe only that for which there is testable evidence should believe in your unproven, patently absurd pseudo-religious claims.

Quote:
You put your faith in man when it should be in God.
I need to agree with some of the others. You're not asking us you put faith in God. You're asking us to put faith in you.

Religiously speaking, you're asking us to believe that you are a prophet, seer, and revelator after the Mormon tradition. Yes, that is your claim, regardless of how badly you attempt to equivocate around it. You are claiming that God has revealed a new doctrine to you and to you alone. You argue it will eventually become part of Mormonism. You're asking others to ask God for a conformation of your claim. That is the definition of a prophet in Mormonism.

Others are right to point out that no one is ever asked to place faith directly in God. One is ever only asked to place faith in what some person has claimed about God, and thus also, tacitly, in that person's role in that dynamic. It's one thing for the nice, clean-cut young folk to ask me to believe Paul was an apostle, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Russell Nelson is the latest in a long line of prophets, and that all that points to some sort of God. You're asking me to believe you are a prophet of a God.

That's a claim of an entirely different order. You're not even asking us to believe in Mormonism. You're asking us to believe in a personal, one-off Billy Baxter version of pseudo-Mormonism. Nevertheless, I've entertained that claim, tested it, and found it to be wanting. Either be prepared to address the fruits of that test, or quit whining about it.

Scientifically speaking, you're asking us to have faith in you as a superior observer of your own proposition. You're trying to tell us no one else can make the appropriate observations to establish scientific evidence in favor of your claim. That's strictly disallowed in science. The principle of reproducibility demands that anyone following your protocol should be able to make the same observations and arrive at the same outcome. You can't even specify a protocol, much less the criteria upon which such a protocol would be based. Again it boils down to trusting you, this time as a uniquely abled observer.

This forum will not provide you the approval you seek. And you've already received the disapproval from a "disfavored" group that tends to be baited by the typical performance from a religious or pseudo-science claimant. What else are you trying to do?
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Old 2nd October 2022, 04:26 PM   #1586
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I might write a book on my experiences with TOBS. And no, I'm not a prophet, which is why I call it TOBS (Theory) instead of DOBS (Doctrine). I am free to speculate on the science behind the theory to my heart's content without crossing the line into preaching false doctrine. Please disregard the above statements in which I overenthusiastically did cross that line.
I may be back after I write the book, if I can stand the abuse.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 05:21 PM   #1587
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
LIGHT BULB MOMENTARILY DIMS = Incorrect thought.

LIGHT BULB MOMENTARILY BRIGHTENS = Correct thought.

SUN GOES BEHIND CLOUDS = Incorrect thought OR you displeased God.

SUN COMES OUT FROM BEHIND CLOUDS = Correct thought OR you pleased God.
How are these body signals?

Is this now a Theory Of Electrical, Meteorlogical, Or Body Signals (TOEMOBS)?
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Old 2nd October 2022, 05:49 PM   #1588
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Originally Posted by Billy Baxter View Post
And no, I'm not a prophet, which is why I call it TOBS (Theory) instead of DOBS (Doctrine).
What you call it doesn't matter. How you treat it matters. You derive it partly from Mormon canon. You literally said it was "personal revelation" to you. You claim that if people here faithfully ask God, God will reveal also to them that TOBS is true. You are treating it as if it were doctrine, but equivocating it as a "theory" to avoid the just consequences of your behavior. You are behaving as if it were revelation to you, that will become part of Mormonism. You're behaving as if you were a prophet. But you say you aren't. Nobody is really fooled, Billy. Your actions speak louder than your words.

Quote:
I am free to speculate on the science behind the theory to my heart's content...
You are free to speculate as much as you want. You aren't free to call that speculation science, or to suggest that those who are far more familiar with science than you are must be "willfully ignorant" for not accepting that speculation as a scientifically viable proposition.

Quote:
...without crossing the line into preaching false doctrine.
The two have nothing to do with each other. We have discussed at length the scientific problems with your theory. You don't appear demonstrably competent to participate in that discussion as an equal. Whether your theory also constitutes false doctrine in Mormonism has nothing to with scientific scrutiny. You say it is based in Mormon canon. You claim it was given to you by revelation. You are claiming God will testify to others of the truthfulness of TOBS. You say you believe TOBS will eventually be Mormon doctrine. You're preaching it publicly. There is no part of the sin of teaching false doctrine that you are not committing.

Quote:
Please disregard the above statements in which I overenthusiastically did cross that line.
We can't absolve your religious transgressions. Square yourself with God and with your church leaders as you see fit. We care only that your claims are consistent; that you don't constantly change your story to evade inconsistency. You have confessed to being "unstable" in some way. We want to make sure this claim of instability doesn't mask evasive debate strategies.

Do you believe TOBS was revealed to you by God as "personal revelation?" Yes or no.
Do you believe that if people faithfully ask God if TOBS is true, God will reveal t them that it is? Yes or no.
Do you believe that TOBS will one day be a doctrine in Mormonism? Yes or no.

The forum will hold you to these answers.

Quote:
...if I can stand the abuse.
You're not being abused or persecuted. You have voluntarily signed up for a skeptics forum. In it, you have proposed a facially absurd and logically inconsistent theory that can have absolutely no scientific validity and have not only asked skeptics to consider it seriously but have called them ignorant if they don't believe it. Separately, you are proposing a personal theory which you self-righteously claim you received by revelation from God, but which is at odds with the religion you simultaneously say you believe in and ask others to accept as true. You are being treated properly according to the claims you are making. Quit whining.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 09:46 PM   #1589
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Part of me hopes he really does write that book, the reaction to it would be quite entertaining.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 10:32 PM   #1590
Filippo Lippi
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Fringe reset, see you back somewhere between six hours to six months.

Unless the "fundies" get to him first...
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Old Yesterday, 09:45 AM   #1591
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
How are these body signals?

Is this now a Theory Of Electrical, Meteorlogical, Or Body Signals (TOEMOBS)?
Honestly that's the point at which I don't think it's rational to deny that TOBS has jumped the shark. I mean, it was never rational. But at this point it just requires mounds upon mounds of supernatural speculation to make it even seem to work.

Billy's only answer to your criticism was that God is infinitely magical and can make it all happen. [Wave hand Masonically] This means God can make it seem to you like the light bulb in the room flickered, but not to me. It doesn't say what an objective measurement would look like, such as measuring voltage, current, and resistance on the line as the proposed effect occurred. Apparently if you look at the strip charts, you'll see a dip in voltage. But when I look at the same strip chart, I'll see a strong, steady supply. God is the ultimate gaslighter.

Similarly God makes one of us see a cloudy day and the other see full sunshine. Similarly there are objective measurements of meteorology. And people talk about the weather all the time. Such conversations would be problematic if the participants are experiencing different weather conditions.

Scientifically, the hypothetico-deductive method grinds to a halt here because the hypothesis requires a deduced observation to legitimately vary in a condition where it patently cannot. Thus the hypothesis (TOBS) is logically inconsistent. It cannot be true. It fails the most elementary gatekeeper criterion for a hypothesis.

Metaphysically, Billy's increasingly speculative method of salvaging bad claims slides deftly down the slippery slope of hopelessly useless solipsism. No observation at all, ever, could be considered reliable because God could be micromanipulating it all to send a personalized phenomenological signal to someone. Doctrinally in Mormonism this fails out of the gate; Mormon theology (when formally analyzed) is definitely an "absolute truth" religion.
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Old Yesterday, 10:23 AM   #1592
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Part of me hopes he really does write that book, the reaction to it would be quite entertaining.
He's already got a well-formed framework for dealing with adverse criticism. It's not hard to imagine he'll just follow it upon release of a book. That's assuming he writes his book on his own and self-publishes it, without the customary intervention of editors and publishers. On the other hand, I think it would be instructive to him to work with an editor and publisher of that sort of material. As I said, there is a lot of private pseudo-scientific and pseudo-intellectual publishing going on in the periphery of Mormonism. None of it is considered official in any way. But prominent Mormon thinkers contribute to it, so some of it is widely read among the segment of Mormons thus interested.

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Unless the "fundies" get to him first...
My first reaction to my message engendering death threats would not be to try to reach a larger audience. This is why I think that whole story, and his desperate attempts to bait "Mormon-bashing" here, are part of an overall victim complex. Cue the standard explainer for paranoid narcissism.
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Old Yesterday, 10:57 AM   #1593
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So I'm not going to be paid a load of cash to remove this thread?!
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Old Yesterday, 12:33 PM   #1594
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
So I'm not going to be paid a load of cash to remove this thread?!
Best you can hope for is a payoff in Mormon crypocurrency: KolobKoin.
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