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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:57 AM   #641
jonesdave116
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Electrical activity and dust lifting on Earth, Mars, and beyond
Renno, N. O. & Kok, J. F.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.ed...Lifting_on.pdf

Is irrelevant. How are you lifting dust on a comet, when there is a diamagnetic cavity in place? For the umpteenth time. Any chance of actually answering this? Or are you just gouing to carry on wasting our time with links to papers that are irrelevant to the discussion?

ETA:
If this is possible at asteroids, which nobody is doubting, due to their lack of a coma, then comets should look like asteroids. And asteroids should have a dusty environment, just like comets. They don't.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:32 AM   #642
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Diamagnetic cavity

You're just so sure, jd116.

Asteroid–comet continuum objects in the solar system

Quote:
4. Conclusion In summary, the population of small bodies in our solar system today, including both minor planets and classical comets, is far less well-delineated into distinct groups of objects than the classical paradigm might have led one to believe in the past. These objects instead appear to occupy a continuum spanning the full range of observational, physical and dynamical properties classically attributed solely either to asteroids or comets. We now know of currently actively sublimating main-belt objects that could have originated either in the asteroid belt or in the outer solar system, and objects displaying comet-like activity that may have no volatile ice content whatsoever. We have found objects composed of inner-asteroid-belt-like material on long-period comet-like orbits, and active objects on comet-like orbits that may in fact originate from the asteroid belt. We also now recognize that dormant comets may be found in both comet-like and un-comet-like orbits. The population of continuum objects is extraordinarily diverse, with each type of object holding the potential for revealing exciting new insights about our solar system due to their unique sets of overlapping comet- and asteroid-like properties. Given this complexity and the growing interest in addressing the many questions that it has raised thus far, it is likely that many more interesting findings await us in this rapidly developing field in the coming years.
And you are saying, jd116, there can be no electric fields inside the comets diamagnetic cavity?

Is this the case, Tusenfem?

How are the neutrals being ionised then or more pressing how are they being released via "subsurface energy"?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:33 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
And away we go again. Rinse and repeat. Ad nauseam. And still zero attempt to explain how any of that is lifting dust when there is a diamagnetic cavity in place. There is nothing electrical going on in that cavity, otherwise it wouldn't be called 'diamagnetic' would it? So, for the umpteenth time, explain what is lofting dust, and how it could form within that cavity.

The charged dust is within the coma. Due to processes in the coma. There are no electric fields within a diamagnetic cavity. There are no currents within a diamagnetic cavity. There is no charge separation within a diamagnetic cavity. There are no suprathermal electrons within a diamagnetic cavity. There are no spikes in the magnetic field within a diamagnetic cavity. By definition. There are no double layers, as you have been repeatedly told. The dust is lofted by gas, and may or may not be collimated. The surface is not bedrock hard, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you.
Frankly, you are just wasting everybody's time with your inane claims, when it has been repeatedly explained to you, with links to the relevant science, that your claims are wrong. Demonstrably and without any doubt.
If you want to carry on your religious belief in this particularly idiotic, unscientific and evidence-free woo, then fine. I just wish you'd take your nonsense somewhere else, and leave the good people of this forum alone, and save them from having to continually correct your idiotic claims.
Are you also saying the processes of electrostatics mentioned in the paper is bunkem?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:49 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Electrical activity and dust lifting on Earth, Mars, and beyond
Renno, N. O. & Kok, J. F.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.ed...Lifting_on.pdf

Is irrelevant. snip...

Or are you just gouing to carry on wasting our time with links to papers that are irrelevant to the discussion?

ETA:
If this is possible at asteroids, which nobody is doubting, due to their lack of a coma, then comets should look like asteroids. And asteroids should have a dusty environment, just like comets. They don't.
It is relevant, me 'ol mate!

Just because you choose not to see the obvious, doesn't mean everyone.

It's basically cutting edge, as confirmed by Reality Check.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:56 AM   #645
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I've told you how it CAN happen, you tell me why it can't?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:58 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Are you also saying the processes of electrostatics mentioned in the paper is bunkem?
No. I'm saying that you are not understanding the paper, nor are you understanding the cometary environment as it is when there is a diamagnetic cavity in place. That is, the solar wind electrons, needed for large voltage gradients in craters, and between the night and day sides, are not reaching the nucleus. Therefore the process as described is irrelevant at a comet when it is highly active.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:59 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
I've told you how it CAN happen, you tell me why it can't?
Just did. ^^^^
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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:16 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
No. I'm saying that you are not understanding the paper, nor are you understanding the cometary environment as it is when there is a diamagnetic cavity in place. That is, the solar wind electrons, needed for large voltage gradients in craters, and between the night and day sides, are not reaching the nucleus. Therefore the process as described is irrelevant at a comet when it is highly active.
Not what the latest papers say, jd116!
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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:26 AM   #649
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Quote:
Not what the latest papers say, jd116!
WHERE?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:38 AM   #650
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Lest we forget here, we are talking about a sudden, explosive emission of so much dust that it is optically thick, from a very small area. I have seen absolutely nothing presented that would explain this behaviour electrostatically. It is nonsense. And the authors of those papers would tell Sol the very same.
We have seen other sudden dust enhancements, and they are accompanied by gas increases. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that all such sudden enhancements are not due to gas release. It is a pointless discussion.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:59 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Charged dust: and so what? Electrical activity and dust lifting on Earth, Mars, and beyond
Nilton O. Renno1,2,* and Jasper F. Kok1,2
yes, so what, because you just gather a lot a terms and then "we" just have to make sense of your ramblings.
It is the trick of just writing incomprehensive post in order to get one of the "experts" to make sense of it for you and work out any possible details or models.

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
electric fields (locally very strong): care to elaborate what "very" strong means here, and where this "locally" is? = Same Paper
And exactly what does that quote have to do with comet 67P?
Next to that, looking at the paper by Renno and Kok, this quote of yours does not exist, heck, the paper only has 6 figures.
You found an upload of a preprint of this paper, and not the published one in Space Science Reviews, which does not have the text you quoted anymore.


Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
More later from your paper Tusenfem, Current in Cometary Comae
oh yippie I can't wait
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:01 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
How are the neutrals being ionised then or more pressing how are they being released via "subsurface energy"?
Since when does ionization have anything to do with an electric field?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:03 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Lest we forget here, we are talking about a sudden, explosive emission of so much dust that it is optically thick, from a very small area. I have seen absolutely nothing presented that would explain this behaviour electrostatically. It is nonsense. And the authors of those papers would tell Sol the very same.
We have seen other sudden dust enhancements, and they are accompanied by gas increases. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that all such sudden enhancements are not due to gas release. It is a pointless discussion.
Interestingly, the plasmaphysical processes of the Argawal outburst are being studied as we speak (well okay, type).
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Old 22nd November 2017, 07:42 AM   #654
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Here is an interesting article on 'electric asteroids'! Yikes!!!
https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/new...ric-asteroids/

However, it isn't quite the sort of thing that Thornhill et al would hope for from the headline alone.

The paper which describes the model is here:

Grid-free 2D plasma simulations of the complex interaction between the solar wind and small, near-Earth asteroids
Zimmerman, N. I. et al.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...0150011018.pdf

To create the necessary electric fields, the model has to incorporate both photoemission and the plasma interaction from the solar wind. Of course, this plasma interaction is not going to happen at a comet with a diamagnetic cavity in place, as the solar wind is getting nowhere near the nucleus.
So, all jolly interesting, and shows that electric effects in space are not ignored by the likes of NASA. It should be noted, however, that we have had a few close up looks at asteroids, and there is no discernible dust coma. Take a look at the Hayabusa images from asteroid Itokawa, for instance. So, if dust levitation is happening, then it is only minor. And this mechanism certainly cannot be responsible for explosive outbursts at comets, even when the solar wind is reaching the surface.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 12:38 PM   #655
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Thumbs down Sol88: Irrelevant delusions on charged dust, etc. to derail from his comet delusions

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Charged dust: ...
23 November 2017 Sol88: Irrelevant delusions on charged dust, etc. to derail from his comet delusions.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 12:42 PM   #656
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Thumbs down Sol88: States ignorance of diamagnetic cavities and an irrelevant paper

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Diamagnetic cavity....
23 November 2017 Sol88: States ignorance of diamagnetic cavities and an irrelevant to his comet delusions paper.

Asteroid–comet continuum objects in the solar system is not his insane comets delusion that include comets are rocks; these rocks were blasted from the Earth including recently; blasting was by electrical discharges between Earth and Venus; an imaginary solar electric field charges up comets; the charge causes never detected electrical discharges; comet jets are electrical discharges; images show that comets are rocks; etc. etc.

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Old 22nd November 2017, 12:47 PM   #657
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Thumbs down Sol88: An idiotic electrostatics paper question to derail from his comet delusions

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Are you also saying the processes of electrostatics mentioned in the paper is bunkem?
23 November 2017 Sol88: An idiotic electrostatics paper question to derail from ihs comet delusions.
The electrostatics paper is about comets made of ices and dust .
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Old 22nd November 2017, 01:00 PM   #658
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Thumbs down Sol88: A lie that a (or any!) mainstream paper is relevant to his comet delusions

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
It is relevant, me 'ol mate!
23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that a (or any!) mainstream paper is relevant to his comet delusions.
23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that I have confirmed that this review paper is relevant to his comet delusions or "cutting edge".

To show how obvious the lies are
  1. The paper is from 2008.
  2. The paper is a review of existing theoretical and observational evidence.
  3. The word comet appears 1 time in a section title and comets are ignored in the section.
  4. He has cited least 1 also irrelevant but recent paper on electrostatic lifting of dust on comet 67P.
Electrical activity and dust lifting on Earth, Mars, and beyond
Quote:
We review electrical activity in blowing sand and dusty phenomena on Earth, Mars, the Moon, and asteroids. On Earth and Mars, blowing sand and dusty phenomena such as dust devils and dust storms are important geological processes and the primary sources of atmospheric dust. Large electric fields have been measured in terrestrial dusty phenomena and are predicted to occur on Mars. We review the charging mechanisms that produce these electric fields and discuss the implications of electrical activity to dust lifting and atmospheric chemistry. In addition, we review theoretical ideas about electric discharges on Mars. Finally, we discuss the evidence that electrostatics is responsible for dust transport on the Moon and asteroids.

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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:51 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Interestingly, the plasmaphysical processes of the Argawal outburst are being studied as we speak (well okay, type).
Are we able to fly on the wall?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:10 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Here is an interesting article on 'electric asteroids'! Yikes!!!
https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/new...ric-asteroids/

However, it isn't quite the sort of thing that Thornhill et al would hope for from the headline alone.

The paper which describes the model is here:

Grid-free 2D plasma simulations of the complex interaction between the solar wind and small, near-Earth asteroids
Zimmerman, N. I. et al.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...0150011018.pdf

To create the necessary electric fields, the model has to incorporate both photoemission and the plasma interaction from the solar wind. Of course, this plasma interaction is not going to happen at a comet with a diamagnetic cavity in place, as the solar wind is getting nowhere near the nucleus.
So, all jolly interesting, and shows that electric effects in space are not ignored by the likes of NASA. It should be noted, however, that we have had a few close up looks at asteroids, and there is no discernible dust coma. Take a look at the Hayabusa images from asteroid Itokawa, for instance. So, if dust levitation is happening, then it is only minor. And this mechanism certainly cannot be responsible for explosive outbursts at comets, even when the solar wind is reaching the surface.
Whoo boy!

Evidence is laid out in front of you and you CHOOSE to ignore it!

ya lesser crested Drongo!

Like you say..."
Quote:
"Goes without saying that nothing electrical happened." [Jonesdavid116] "
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:25 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
No. I'm saying that you are not understanding the paper, nor are you understanding the cometary environment as it is when there is a diamagnetic cavity in place. That is, the solar wind electrons, needed for large voltage gradients in craters, and between the night and day sides, are not reaching the nucleus. Therefore the process as described is irrelevant at a comet when it is highly active.

Why hung up on "Just" solar wind electrons? Plenty of electrons with enough energy to start ionizing "stuff".

Quote:
This field-aligned current Birkeland Current can then, again, be used to increase the ionization rate near the nucleus.
Currents in cometary comae

Quote:
9.1 Diamagnetic cavity Only the Giotto spacecraft [Reinhard, 1986], with its closest approach (CA) to the nucleus, observed the diamagnetic cavity around comet 1P/Halley. The observations by the Giotto magnetometer [Neubauer et al., 1986] clearly showed a field-free region around CA. The duration of this signature was . 124:5 s which corresponded to a physical width of . 8513 km. Fig. 5BB shows the transition of Giotto into the diamagnetic cavity, where over a very sharp boundary (C) the magnetic field strength decreases from . 20 nT to almost zero. From the behaviour of the magnetic field components it was deduced that there are not only currents perpendicular to the magnetic field (taking care of the shielding of the cavity) but there are also strong field-aligned currents in alternating directions. The change in magnetic field is carried by currents, which will result into a J.B force onto the plasma. Neubauer [1988] assumed that the magnetic field is draped and the strength
Diamagnetic cavity???

Sounds more like a double layer!
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Old 22nd November 2017, 07:12 PM   #662
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Thumbs down Sol88: Insults jonesdave116 and lies about evidence about his comet delusions

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Whoo boy!...
23 November 2017 Sol88: Insults jonesdave116 and lies about presenting evidence about his comet delusions.

22 November 2017 Sol88: A lie in his signature by quote mining an obviously true statement by jonesdave116
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Old 22nd November 2017, 07:23 PM   #663
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Thumbs down Sol88: An inane question to derail from his comet delusions

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Why ...
23 November 2017 Sol88: An inane question to derail from his comet delusions.

23 November 2017 Sol88: Idiocy of mainstream papers on comets made of ices and dust.

23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that field aligned currents are Birkeland currents and that altering tusenfem's paper makes it so.
28 January 2017 by tusenfem Birkeland currents are a special kind of field aligned currents which flow in the Earth's magnetosphere.

23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that Birkeland currents are in his comet delusions.

23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that a diamagnetic cavity is a double layer (even with as a joke).

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Old 23rd November 2017, 12:55 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Why hung up on "Just" solar wind electrons? Plenty of electrons with enough energy to start ionizing "stuff".
Most ionization is taken care of by PHOTO ionization, with sometimes a contribution from secondary ionization by photo-electrons.

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Diamagnetic cavity???

Sounds more like a double layer!
If you copy a quote from my paper, then do it correctly, I doubt I wrote "which will result into a J.B force" (which I did not). What did I write and do you understand the difference between what I wrote and you misquoted?

And in what universe is what I describe a double layer?
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Old 23rd November 2017, 03:16 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
23 November 2017 Sol88: An inane question to derail from his comet delusions.

23 November 2017 Sol88: Idiocy of mainstream papers on comets made of ices and dust.

23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that field aligned currents are Birkeland currents and that altering tusenfem's paper makes it so.
28 January 2017 by tusenfem Birkeland currents are a special kind of field aligned currents which flow in the Earth's magnetosphere.

23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that Birkeland currents are in his comet delusions.

23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that a diamagnetic cavity is a double layer (even with as a joke).

A lie that a diamagnetic cavity is a double layer...ha ha ha what a complete and utter bloody drongo!

diamagenetic cavity is a double layer

Sol88 wipes tears of laughter from he's eyes :rolf
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Old 23rd November 2017, 04:00 AM   #666
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I mean, really Tusenfem? Unknown???

Quote:
Suprathermal electrons are accelerated by an
unknown mechanism from a few eV upward to 100 s of eV
and play an important role in the electron-neutral chemistry as
well as in dust grain charging (Cravens et al. 1987; Mendis &
Horányi 2013; Gombosi et al. 2015).
Suprathermal electron environment of comet
67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko: Observations from the Rosetta Ion
and Electron Sensor


Mmmmm...unknown?????

Now let me think....Tusenfem may be able to help??

@Tusenfem, what process can accelerate charged particles in a cometary environment?

You may want to read up on [b]Electron and Ion Dynamics of the Solar Wind Interaction
with a Weakly Outgassing Comet[\b]
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Old 23rd November 2017, 04:07 AM   #667
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Most ionization is taken care of by PHOTO ionization, with sometimes a contribution from secondary ionization by photo-electrons.



If you copy a quote from my paper, then do it correctly, I doubt I wrote "which will result into a J.B force" (which I did not). What did I write and do you understand the difference between what I wrote and you misquoted?

And in what universe is what I describe a double layer?
Sorry mate, just the way it ctrl+c and ctrl + v'd.

I understand whats going because I had asked at the start of the thread, stick an obsticle into the solar wind and Electron and Ion Dynamics of the Solar Wind Interaction with a Weakly Outgassing Comet

but we argued over it for quite some time!

Oh well that's science, ay?
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Old 23rd November 2017, 04:31 AM   #668
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Quote:
Whoo boy!

Evidence is laid out in front of you and you CHOOSE to ignore it!
No, I didn't ignore it. I linked to it, You simply don't understand it. As usual. I even explained it. Just for the hard of thinking: with a diamagnetic cavity in place, all that will happen is that the sunlit surface may pick up a charge of a few volts positive. That's it. With an asteroid, or the moon, the solar wind electrons have access to the nucleus, and due to their greater mobility than ions, will create a strong negative charge on the dark side, and also in shadowed areas. Therefore there is a voltage gradient. With me so far? At a comet that is highly active, that cannot happen. Even an idiot could see that, So why does it keep having to be explained? Why do you think the title of Nordheim's paper ended with the words, "during periods of low activity." ?
At least try to understand it, and stop wasting people's time with silly suggestions. Your electric comet woo is dead. Has been for a long time. No rock, no EDM, no electric discharges. As silly ideas go, this is one of the sillier ones. And was a spectacular failure. As was predicted.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 04:40 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
I mean, really Tusenfem? Unknown???

Suprathermal electron environment of comet
67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko: Observations from the Rosetta Ion
and Electron Sensor


Mmmmm...unknown?????

Now let me think....Tusenfem may be able to help??

@Tusenfem, what process can accelerate charged particles in a cometary environment?

You may want to read up on [b]Electron and Ion Dynamics of the Solar Wind Interaction
with a Weakly Outgassing Comet[\b]
And from the abstract to that paper:

Quote:
The mass loading process, which likely is the cause of these processes, plays a stronger role at large distances from the Sun than previously expected. We discuss the possible mechanisms that most likely are responsible for this acceleration: heating by waves generated by the pick-up ion instability, and the admixture of cometary photoelectrons.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 04:56 AM   #670
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Sorry mate, just the way it ctrl+c and ctrl + v'd.

I understand whats going because I had asked at the start of the thread, stick an obsticle into the solar wind and Electron and Ion Dynamics of the Solar Wind Interaction with a Weakly Outgassing Comet

but we argued over it for quite some time!

Oh well that's science, ay?
And again, that is for a weakly outgassing comet. It does not take into account the situation once a diamagnetic cavity has formed:

Quote:
As the cometary outgassing activity increases, plasma-neutral collisions will play an increasingly significant role in shaping the ionized cometary environment. Collisions account for two significant processes in the context of mass-loaded plasmas: ion-neutral friction and electron cooling. When the gas production rate is high enough plasma-neutral collisions eventually carve out a nonmagnetized region near the cometary nucleus[56]. This region is shaped by electron-neutral collisions[57]. Taking into account collisions will be necessary to extend this study for more active comets.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 06:19 AM   #671
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
I mean, really Tusenfem? Unknown???

Suprathermal electron environment of comet
67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko: Observations from the Rosetta Ion
and Electron Sensor


Mmmmm...unknown?????
Stopped reading after the introduction, did you, and forgot about sections 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 in which at least 4 methods for electron acceleration are given?

I guess you still don't understand how a scientific paper works. In the introduction you give the status quo, and then you continue with the presentation of your own work. And as there are several methods to accelerate electrons, at the point of Cravens+, Mendis+ and Gombosi+ it was unknown which method accelerates the electrons to supra-thermal energies.

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Now let me think....Tusenfem may be able to help??

@Tusenfem, what process can accelerate charged particles in a cometary environment?

You may want to read up on [b]Electron and Ion Dynamics of the Solar Wind Interaction with a Weakly Outgassing Comet[\b]
I am sure you can come up with (one) process, and interestingly George spent 4 subsections on possible mechanisms, which you obviously did not look at.

Sure I can read Jan's paper, and I can even talk about it with him in Dutch. However, you have not understood the scientific process, and when George wrote the paper from which you quote-mined first, it was still 3 years before Jan wrote his paper.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 06:25 AM   #672
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Quote:
Why hung up on "Just" solar wind electrons? Plenty of electrons with enough energy to start ionizing "stuff".
What has ionisation got to do with anything? We are talking about solar wind electrons being required to form the large voltage gradients along the terminator, and between shadowed and non-shadowed areas. Nothing to do with ionisation. No idea what you are talking about.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 06:25 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Sorry mate, just the way it ctrl+c and ctrl + v'd.
Maybe you should check

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
I understand whats going because I had asked at the start of the thread, stick an obsticle into the solar wind and Electron and Ion Dynamics of the Solar Wind Interaction with a Weakly Outgassing Comet
This is not even a sentence!

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
but we argued over it for quite some time!

Oh well that's science, ay?
Hardly
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Old 23rd November 2017, 12:58 PM   #674
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Thumbs down Sol88: Extension of his insults of jonesdave116 to me.

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
A lie that a diamagnetic cavity is a double layer
24 November 2017 Sol88: Extension of his insults of jonesdave116 to me.

The next "bloody drongo" (= bloody idiot) will be reported. I and jonesdave116 (and tusenfem) know what diamagnetic cavities and double layers are. That does not make us bloody idiots.

24 November 2017 Sol88: Repeats his lie that a diamagnetic cavity is a double layer.

For others interested in the truth:
A diamagnetic cavity is a volume in plasma that has no magnetic field. A double layer is the separation of charges into layers in a plasma caused by currents of a discontinuity in plasma properties.

Rosetta finds magnetic field-free bubble at comet
Quote:
ESA’s Rosetta spacecraft has revealed a surprisingly large region around its host comet devoid of any magnetic field.

When ESA’s Giotto flew past Comet Halley three decades ago, it found a vast magnetic-free region extending more than 4000 km from the nucleus. This was the first observation of something that scientists had until then only thought about but had never seen
(my emphasis added)
Double layers had been observed for decades: Goertz, C. K. (1979), Double layers and electrostatic shocks in space, Rev. Geophys., 17(3), 418–426 is a 1979 review.

Last edited by Reality Check; 23rd November 2017 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 01:27 PM   #675
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Thumbs down Sol88: Irrelevant paper title, etc. to derail from his comet delusions

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Suprathermal electron environment of comet
67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko: Observations from the Rosetta Ion
and Electron Sensor
24 November 2017 Sol88: Irrelevant paper title about a comet made of ices and dust and questions to derail from his comet delusions.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 01:36 PM   #676
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Thumbs down Sol88: Irrelevant paper title about comets made of ices and dust

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Electron and Ion Dynamics of the Solar Wind Interaction with a Weakly Outgassing Comet
24 November 2017 Sol88: Irrelevant paper title about comets made of ices and dust

24 November 2017 Sol88: A lie about understanding anything about comets as shown by over 8 years of ignorant delusions that comets are rock, etc.
An astrophysicist studying comets tells him a basic fact about comets (ionization of the coma is primarily caused by photoionization) and not to misquote his paper (no double layers in it).
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Old 23rd November 2017, 01:51 PM   #677
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398 items of ignorance, idiocy (citing irrelevant mainstream papers), delusion and lies dating from 29 August 2016 to 20 November 2017 (maybe hundreds more in the last 8 years!)

The last few weeks have included many lies and resorting to insults, e.g.
21 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that I do not know that there are no cometary double layers after I emphasized the lack of literature on cometary double layers.
drongo is an Australasian term for "idiot" or "stupid fellow". A quite mild insult by itself but "bloody" makes it worse.
  1. 22 November 2017 Sol88: Doubles up on a lie when he knows that is a lack of literature on cometary double layers.
  2. 22 November 2017 Sol88: A stupid demand to teach him after his 8 years of refusal to learn abut comets to derail from his comet delusions.
  3. 22 November 2017 Sol88: A possibly lying by quote mining signature (no context). But let us see...
  4. 22 November 2017 Sol88: A lie in his signature by quote mining an obviously true statement by jonesdave116
  5. 23 November 2017 Sol88: Irrelevant delusions on charged dust, etc. to derail from his comet delusions.
  6. 23 November 2017 Sol88: States ignorance of diamagnetic cavities and an irrelevant to his comet delusions paper.
  7. 23 November 2017 Sol88: An idiotic electrostatics paper question to derail from his comet delusions.
  8. 23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that a (or any!) mainstream paper is relevant to his comet delusions.
  9. 23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that I have confirmed that this review paper is relevant to his comet delusions or "cutting edge".
  10. 23 November 2017 Sol88: Insults jonesdave116 and lies about presenting evidence about his comet delusions.
  11. 23 November 2017 Sol88: An inane question to derail from his comet delusions.
  12. 23 November 2017 Sol88: Idiocy of mainstream papers on comets made of ices and dust.
  13. 23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that field aligned currents are Birkeland currents and that altering tusenfem's paper makes it so.
  14. 23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that Birkeland currents are in his comet delusions.
  15. 23 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that a diamagnetic cavity is a double layer (even as a joke).
  16. 24 November 2017 Sol88: Extension of his insults of jonesdave116 to me.
  17. 24 November 2017 Sol88: Repeats his lie that a diamagnetic cavity is a double layer.
  18. 24 November 2017 Sol88: Irrelevant paper title about a comet made of ices and dust and questions to derail from his comet delusions.
  19. 24 November 2017 Sol88: Irrelevant paper title about comets made of ices and dust
  20. 24 November 2017 Sol88: A lie about understanding anything about comets as shown by over 8 years of ignorant delusions that comets are rock, etc.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 05:56 PM   #678
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As RC, Tusenfem and myself have said, this is a non-argument. It is the death throes of a very silly idea that has been shown to be wrong. It was predicted to be wrong on Cosmoquest/ BAUT over 10 years ago. It has turned out to be precisely wrong. No surprise there.
Its one remaining believer is now reduced to trying to contort various mainstream predictions, papers, and observations, into some sort of hope for the resurrection of this impossible woo. Not happening. No EDM. No rock. No discharges. No double layers (whatever they are supposed to do). It is dead. Deader than a very dead thing. It is an ex-stupid idea. It is finished. Shuffled off its mortal coil. Gone to meet the choir invisible. It is an ex-silly idea. Finish. Goodnight.
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Old 24th November 2017, 12:48 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Stopped reading after the introduction, did you, and forgot about sections 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 in which at least 4 methods for electron acceleration are given?

I guess you still don't understand how a scientific paper works. In the introduction you give the status quo, and then you continue with the presentation of your own work. And as there are several methods to accelerate electrons, at the point of Cravens+, Mendis+ and Gombosi+ it was unknown which method accelerates the electrons to supra-thermal energies.



I am sure you can come up with (one) process, and interestingly George spent 4 subsections on possible mechanisms, which you obviously did not look at.

Sure I can read Jan's paper, and I can even talk about it with him in Dutch. However, you have not understood the scientific process, and when George wrote the paper from which you quote-mined first, it was still 3 years before Jan wrote his paper.
yup, double layers...

Quote:
An enhancement of the ion density is to be expected in quasineutral
plasma to compensate the electric charge resulting from the
electron density increase. This rule is also applicable here, although
in absence of electric fields the ions would decouple from the electrons
when the plasma enters the magnetized region, because due
to their much larger gyroradius the ions do not ‘feel’ the magnetic
field until they penetrate the boundary by tens of kilometres. However,
quasi-neutrality is restored by an electric field on scales larger
than the Debye length (which is only about 10 cm here), because
a relatively small charge imbalance can self-consistently build up
a polarization (ambipolar) electric field, which entraps the ions in
the vicinity of the cavity boundary.
Thus, the thermal ion density
cannot deviate far from the electron density. Although IES only
detects ions with energies higher than 4 eV, this effect should lead
to lower ion counts inside the cavity and enhancements in the cavity
boundary in accordance with the observations.
Charged particle signatures of the diamagnetic cavity of comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko


and further, seems the DIAMAGNETIC cavity seems to coincide (@170 km First detection of a diamagnetic cavity
at comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
) if not inside the double layer where the distance from the nucleus were charge separation is occurring in this simulation at around 500km from the nucleus? Electron and Ion Dynamics of the Solar Wind Interaction with a Weakly Outgassing Comet

So what's going on here, Tusenfem?
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Old 24th November 2017, 12:57 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
What has ionisation got to do with anything? We are talking about solar wind electrons being required to form the large voltage gradients along the terminator, and between shadowed and non-shadowed areas. Nothing to do with ionisation. No idea what you are talking about.
Ya bloody drop kick!

Ionization has EVERYTHING to do with the ELECTRIC COMET.

Solar wind electrons are not required just electrons with high enough energy.
Quote:
and
(ii) the acceleration of electrons along the ambipolar electric
field [29]. In the second scenario, solar wind electrons
traveling toward the comet fall into the potential well that is
generated by the gradient in electron number density
[53,54]. Electrons born inside, i.e., the cometary electrons,
are trapped unless they carry enough energy to escape. The
potential scales as the electron thermal energy [29]; hence,
only suprathermal electrons will be able to escape the nearcomet
environment. Note that this interpretation is valid on
subion time scales only, as quasineutrality will act such that
electrons must eventually leave the potential well.
decca2017



As Tusenfem says, photo-ionization is the main player, even when the coma is optical thick to incoming EUV!

and you still need your infrared radiation to burrow under all that dust to get to your "ice" to start the whole ionization shebang going in the first place!

Seems you've got it in your hand again! and any more than two shakes and your playing with it!
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