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24th November 2017, 05:16 AM | #681 |
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And I'll repeat, for the terminally stupid - what the hell has ionisation got to do with lifting dust from the surface??????? And what has the quote from Deca et al got to do with anything? They are talking about the situation in the coma at a weakly outgassing comet. All of this is nothing whatsoever to do with why the coma is dustiest at peak outgassing. As already explained umpteen times, it CANNOT be electrostatic levitation. You need solar wind electrons for that. Hence why Nordheim only posits it at large heliocentric distances. If it were a serious player, then all near Earth asteroids would be sporting a coma just like comets. Why don't they? Because they haven't got ice. And the vapour from the sublimating ice is seen by a number of instruments in the coma, close to the surface. This argument is long dead. As dead as the electric comet woo.
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24th November 2017, 05:22 AM | #682 |
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Diamagnetric cavity = double layer! Lol. Tell us Sol, who were quite keen on invoking DLs before the Halley mission? Mendis and Alfven, right? Check the literature. Were they around for the Halley results? Yes they were. Did they think the predicted diamagnetic cavity was a DL? No, they didn't. Only one person on the planet thinks that, and they are wrong. As usual.
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24th November 2017, 05:56 AM | #683 |
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24th November 2017, 06:43 AM | #684 |
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and where is the problem, exactly?
(apart from the fact that is is not a double layer, but we will let that go) I guess you are talking about this
Originally Posted by Deca et al. [2017
Originally Posted by Deca et al. [2017
Originally Posted by Vigren et al. [2015
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24th November 2017, 06:47 AM | #685 |
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24th November 2017, 06:54 AM | #686 |
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Houston we have a problem...
Quote:
Mmmmm..... |
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24th November 2017, 06:56 AM | #687 |
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“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116. “The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator |
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24th November 2017, 07:02 AM | #688 |
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I should clarify this somewhat. The main suggestion for DLs came from Ip and Mendis. Such as in the paper:
The generation of magnetic fields and electric currents in cometary plasma tails Ip, W-H. & Mendis, D. A. (1976) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...1910357690110X Alfven merely mentions their proposal in his double layers paper. And Ip and Mendis were only ever talking about their possible formation in the tail. They most certainly were not suggesting that the diamagnetic cavity was a DL! Both of those authors continued to publish papers on comets for some years, and Ip, from memory, was an author on at least one of the 67P papers. They both knew the difference between a DL and a diamagnetic cavity. |
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24th November 2017, 07:05 AM | #689 |
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Quote:
ETA: The diamagnetic cavity isn't stopping the solar wind. It is piling up the IMF. The solar wind is nowhere to be seen. In October, two months after perihelion, the spacecraft had a sunward excursion out to 1500 km. The solar wind was missing all the way out. EETA: The birth and growth of a solar wind cavity around a comet – Rosetta observations Behar, E. et al https://research.aalto.fi/files/1573...al_stx1871.pdf |
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24th November 2017, 10:21 AM | #690 |
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24th November 2017, 10:23 AM | #691 |
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25th November 2017, 04:29 AM | #692 |
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“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116. “The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator |
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25th November 2017, 04:48 AM | #693 |
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RPC-LAP Electric Field Signatures at the Diamagnetic Cavity of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
2.4.3 Diamagnetic cavity (DC)
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Hell we’ll even get into a bit of critical ionisation velocity (CIV) again, watya reckon Tusenfem? We’ve been here before if you care to remember. |
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“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116. “The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator |
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25th November 2017, 04:57 AM | #694 |
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The above paper introduces some new problems for the mainstream!
Seems your assumptions for radial ‘outgassing’ is a fair way out. 2.2 Generation of cometary boundaries When illuminated by the Sun, energy from the solar radiation causes sublimation of ice from the comet surface. The amount of sublimated ice per time unit is described by the cometary outgassing rate Q, on which the activity level of a comet and the extent of the comet -solar wind interaction region depend on. It is, therefore, highly relevant to estimate Q when doing in-situ observations of the cometary environment. By assuming spherical symmetry and negligible gravitational pull on the cometary neutrals, the observed neutral number density nn at a distance r from the comet nucleus is related to the outgassing rate Q by |
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25th November 2017, 04:58 AM | #695 |
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You may be able to fill the lurkers in here a bit Tusenfem.
Quote:
What’s going on here? |
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25th November 2017, 06:26 AM | #696 |
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Sol88. Have you considered joining the Cosmoquest Forum and starting a thread over there in the Q&A section?
It is for asking questions on astronomy and cosmology. You will get a number of very well informed answers. Be aware though it is for asking questions and receiving mainstream answers, not advocating your own theories but it will get you answers to your mainstream questions and help you understand the papers you quote. https://forum.cosmoquest.org/forumdi...ns-and-Answers |
25th November 2017, 07:49 AM | #697 |
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Nothing in that quote is the least bit relevant to what I said. The neutrals will head out. A small number will be ionised before they reach the pile up boundary. The lifetime against photoionisation for H2O is of the order of 106 seconds. The molecules are travelling at ~ 600 m/s. To reach the boundary at, say, 200 km would take ~ 300 s. Any ions and electrons formed within the cavity are not subject to a magnetic field. There is no reason for them to go wandering off to dark parts of the nucleus. Spherical symmetry is assumed in many models to make them easier to compute. It just means in those models (Haser model?) that the comet is modelled as being a sphere. The speed of the sublimating gases means that gravitational pull can be ignored. The gas will still head up and out.
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25th November 2017, 07:56 AM | #698 |
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Theoretically, yes. In the tail. And nothing to do with the diamagnetic cavity boundary. All the processes we have been talking about happen in the sunward coma. Where they have not been proposed to occur. And, chances are, they won't have been seen in the tail, either. Even if they were, what do you think they are doing that affects the sunward coma?
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25th November 2017, 08:34 AM | #699 |
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Very basically, what the quotation suggests is that incoming neutrals displace the heavier and slower ions which, eventually, draws the electrons with them (maintaining quasi-neutrality) against the impedance of the magnetic field resulting in "critical ionization velocity (CIV) events" from those electrons ionizing the neutrals and thus increasing plasma density.
What exactly does the electric comet theory suggest is "going on here"? In reference to your assertion of excess electrons before, generally how many excess electrons does the electric comet theory propose such a comet has? |
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25th November 2017, 09:51 AM | #700 |
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I'm not sure that this has got anything to do with the 'electric comet theory' any more. Given the predictions on this site by David Talbott, and the pdf poster he co-wrote with Thornhill. it is blindingly obvious that that has failed to eventuate. No electric discharges, no EDM (lol), no rock, plenty of ice, etc.
He appears now (insofar as I can follow his twisted logic) to be claiming that electrostatic charging is responsible for dust jets! This despite the fact that said jets are associated with an increase of gas. Such as: Comet's firework display ahead of perihelion http://sci.esa.int/rosetta/56325-com...of-perihelion/ And: The 2016 Feb 19 outburst of comet 67P/CG: an ESA Rosetta multi-instrument study Grun, E. et al. https://academic.oup.com/mnras/artic...1/S220/2633359 Then there seems to be some stuff about double layers and CIV. I have no idea where this is meant to be going. It just seems to be distraction tactics, as one would expect from a woo believer whose beliefs have been well and truly debunked by real science and observation. |
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25th November 2017, 10:00 AM | #701 |
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Exactly, the introduction of a neutral gas into the plasma would seem to be at odds with the EC portrayal of the jets as electrostatic discharges or the result of EDM. Again it seems just an attempt to find anything stated as electrodynamic in nature in relation to comets regardless of if it directly opposes basic EC assertions.
ETA: As tusenfem alludes to up thread I don't recommend trying to read much actual meaning into Sol88's mainstream paper spamming. As I've seen many times from crank science supporters It's often beneficial for others to try to find the, tenuous if any, connections between their mainstream citations and the alternate notion's assertions for them. If Sol88 can't make clear how this directly supports EC assertions then the indications from the quoted citation and those EC assertions are that they are in direct opposition. |
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25th November 2017, 10:42 AM | #702 |
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That would be unlikely! See the status of the first poster in this thread:
https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthr...lectric-Comets |
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25th November 2017, 12:20 PM | #703 |
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25th November 2017, 06:07 PM | #704 |
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Ummm....yes it is!
Quote:
Bloody apple have to wait till I’m home Not enough ‘gas’ Too much dust Gas can’t remove dust Model used in diamagnetic gas production rate flawed The dust is charged at the nucleus already Suns infrared can’t penetrate No surface ice Dust is colimated |
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“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116. “The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator |
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25th November 2017, 06:42 PM | #705 |
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***** is that? Judas Priest. Please make a point. You are wasting everybodies time. It is complete sh*te. What on Earth are you on about? Stop wasting everybody's time with your idiotic woo. |
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25th November 2017, 11:57 PM | #706 |
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At the moment just a hastily written "list" of points that need clarifying.
I will add links to the relevant paper when I've finished fishing! 1. Comet appears hard(Mupus) Thermal and mechanical properties of the near-surface layers of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko and Rocky (Osiris) (Bedrock) Geomorphology of comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko 2. Not enough ‘gas' from sublimation, comet too weakly outgassing to form any sorta mechanical/physical barrier. 3. Comet would form a langmiur sheath anyhow. 4. Too much dust for "ice" to release gas 5. Gas can’t remove dust "explosive" dust releases with no 'gas' increase. 6. No chambers or nozzles found 7. Model used in diamagnetic gas production rate flawed, nucleus does not evenly radially expand it's "atmosphere". 8. The dust is charged at the nucleus already 9. Suns infra-red can’t penetrate dusty surface, sublimation of pathetic amount of surface ice hard to detecte. 10. Dust is charged, filamentary, fine structured and collimated. 11. Nested draping, "frozen in" magnetic field and magnetic reconnection wrong.
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13. Cold calm electrons down to on the nucleus. 14. Plasma tail will show a nested Birkeland current structures,(concentric cylindrical current sheet surfaces) This will be evident in the the pitch angle of the helical total magnetic field B vector encircling a field aligned current changing continuously with increasing radial distance r from the central axis of the current. As Don Scotts described in the model D E Scott has presented http://www.ptep-online.com/2015/PP-41-13.PDF this was also found in the ULYSSESS ION TAIL OF COMET McNAUGHT data. 15. New papers on the plasma physics around a weakly charged comet are only just starting in earnest, late 2017 16. Diocotron instability incorrectly called Kelvin-Helmholtz instability Electric comet still has legs "dirtysnowyiceball" digs itself s a deep/er hole |
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26th November 2017, 12:21 AM | #707 |
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Sorry but to keep continuity for me at least i'll keep adding to the above list.
It may pop up now and again, and again..... |
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“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116. “The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator |
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26th November 2017, 02:36 AM | #708 |
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15. New papers on the plasma physics around a weakly charged comet are only just starting in earnest, late 2017 Interaction of the solar wind with comets: a Rosetta perspective
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“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116. “The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator |
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26th November 2017, 02:52 AM | #709 |
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17. Current carrying double layer being called anything but their correct name, same with FAC's. They are indeed Birkeland currents.
and despite whet Tusenfem says and mainstreams stubbornness to acknowledge them, double layers play a very important role.
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“No rock. Any charge separation is limited. The electric field is pointing in the wrong direction. Currents are doing nothing.” Jonesdave116. “The 'electric comet' is physically IMPOSSIBLE to model using mainstream science! PERIOD! True story! End of story!” Indagator |
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26th November 2017, 08:04 AM | #710 |
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Knapmeyer, M. et al. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2016AGUFM.P42A..04K
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Spatially resolved evolution of the local H2O production rates of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko from the MIRO instrument on Rosetta. Marshall, D. W. et al https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/pd...aa30502-17.pdf
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Comet's firework display ahead of perihelion http://sci.esa.int/rosetta/56325-com...of-perihelion/
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26th November 2017, 08:11 AM | #711 |
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Laughable. Tries to back up the EU nonsense by quoting a crank!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mae-Wan_Ho
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26th November 2017, 08:46 AM | #712 |
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So, the nature of the diamagnetic cavity was not totally as predicted. Wow! Considering that we had only encountered one at a comet before (not counting artificial comets), this is not all that surprising. EU said nothing about the cavity. Indeed, the idiot Thornhill was telling his intellectually challenged followers that the solar wind was creating the water! Even though it isn't reaching the nucleus for some time, as we'd known since 1986.
As for your electrically charged nanograins; you should have read the paper that was referenced in the one that you quote mined:
Quote:
Burch, J. L. et al. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5GL065177/full |
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26th November 2017, 12:39 PM | #713 |
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Sol88: Lies about double layers yet again
27 November 2017 Sol88: Lies about double layers yet again with a paper on the 67P diamagnetic cavity .
27 November 2017 Sol88: Stupid question to derail from his comet delusions. If there is one diamagnetic cavity then 2 detections of it will find it in abut the same place |
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26th November 2017, 12:42 PM | #714 |
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Sol88: A lie that ionization has "everything" to do with his cult comet delusions
27 November 2017 Sol88: A lie that ionization has "everything" to do with his cult comet delusions.
Those idiots at Thunderbolts have insane delusions about comets that do not involve ionization of the comet coma. For those who do not know how insane the electric comet is: |
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26th November 2017, 12:52 PM | #715 |
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Sol88: The idiocy of the title of a paper about comets made of ices and dust
of multiple idiocy
27 November 2017 Sol88: The idiocy of the title of a paper about comets made of ices and dust. Plasma waves confined to the diamagnetic cavity of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko by Gunell, H. et. al. 27 November 2017 Sol88: The idiocy that a diamagnetic cavity is empty (not magnetic field does not mean no plasma!) 27 November 2017 Sol88: The repeated idiocy that a diamagnetic cavity is anything to do with his comet delusions. |
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26th November 2017, 12:59 PM | #716 |
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Sol88: A lie and delusion about a double layer
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26th November 2017, 01:03 PM | #717 |
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Sol88: A lie about his irrelevant delusion of a coma double layer
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26th November 2017, 01:06 PM | #718 |
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Sol88: Idiotic, irrelevant citation of a paper on the diamagnetic cavity of Comet 67P
27 November 2017 Sol88: Idiotic and irrelevant citation of a paper on the diamagnetic cavity of Comet 67P (made of ices and dust!)
The idiocy includes that he probably picked this paper because of "Electric Field" in the title. 27 November 2017 Sol88: Stupid promise to derail from his comet delusions by returning to a previous derail. |
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26th November 2017, 01:26 PM | #719 |
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Sol88: Lies about a paper being a problem for the mainstream of ices and dust comets
27 November 2017 Sol88: Lies about a MSc thesis being a problem for the mainstream of comets made of ices and dust.
The author, Birgitte Madsen, stated the obvious that has probably been known since the 1950's. Ices sublimate. This creates gas. The rate of outgassing Q is important! 27 November 2017 Sol88: Idiocy of highlighting the paper describing sublimating ices ! RPC-LAP Electric Field Signatures at the Diamagnetic Cavity of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
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26th November 2017, 01:33 PM | #720 |
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Sol88: Yet another pathetic attempt to derail from his comet delusions
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