IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 10th February 2021, 11:20 AM   #481
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 27,185
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
UK pensioners living in France whose UK driving licence expires at age 70, are unable to exchange their UK licence for a French one and can no longer drive legally.
The exchange protocol was not agreed in Brexit negotiations.
They should have switched to a French licence when they became permanent residents. Those are the rules, but a lot of Brit expats either don't know or just continued to get away with driving on their UK-issued EU licence. But it's this kind of complication that was a factor in our decision to quit Greece last year (there were others though). I still sometimes read the 'British in Greece' Facebook forums, and expats are going through all kinds of hassles as 'the protocols' were not properly agreed, as you say.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 12:07 PM   #482
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,649
David Duguid MP Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Scotland tweets

@david_duguid
#HandsFaceSpace
United Kingdom Govt £23 million Seafood Disruption Support Scheme opened today for applications.
I’ve been engaging with the industry for many months and continue to work with all sections of the seafood sector in Scotland as we move to maximise future opportunities and adapt to new rules.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 10th February 2021 at 12:09 PM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 12:17 PM   #483
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
We are a third country with an FTA with the EU.
The way the EU treats Canada, it should also treat us.

However, the way we treat other countries, we should do it more politely than the protectionist right wing clique that is the Commission.
Sigh. The EU *is* abiding by the terms of the agreement with the UK. The problem is the UK, because of its ongoing delusions, expects special treatment. And the UK failed, due to arrogant and abject incompetence, to prepare properly. Or, in many cases, prepare at all.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 12:21 PM   #484
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Er no. We have a voice at the WTO, the WTO can prosecute the EU if the EU act unreasonably.
Oh good grief, this is more exceptionalist bollocks. The WTO is not going to intervene to protect the UK's hurt feelings.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 12:23 PM   #485
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Morally speaking we are talking about equality.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 12:24 PM   #486
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The EU are in the process of ratifying a free trade agreement with us, as they did Canada, sorry to burst yours.
Sigh. Those agreements are entirely different, with different terms.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 12:27 PM   #487
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
UK pensioners living in France whose UK driving licence expires at age 70, are unable to exchange their UK licence for a French one and can no longer drive legally.
The exchange protocol was not agreed in Brexit negotiations.
It's the little things that drop through the cracks. Especially given the gross incompetence of the UK.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 12:29 PM   #488
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The European Convention on Human Rights came from the Council of Europe (which isn't an institution of the EU).
And is something the current UKGov want to ditch.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 12:55 PM   #489
Airfix
Graduate Poster
 
Airfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,047
The Cameron government referred to the 1998 Labour human rights act and said they wanted to replace it with "a bill of rights".

If the replacement act, is compatible with the convention, then the government isn't ditching the convention.
If the replacement act, isn't compatible with the convention, then what you're saying would be correct.

The devil is in the detail.
Show me the detail.

And remember, the Boris government won't always be in power.
Airfix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 12:57 PM   #490
Airfix
Graduate Poster
 
Airfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,047
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Sigh. Those agreements are entirely different, with different terms.
The principles of ratification are the same.
The principle of provisional implementation is the same.

And regarding the WTO, it has a dispute settlement body...
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e...spu_body_e.htm

Last edited by Airfix; 10th February 2021 at 12:58 PM.
Airfix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 01:37 PM   #491
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
UK pensioners living in France whose UK driving licence expires at age 70, are unable to exchange their UK licence for a French one and can no longer drive legally.
The exchange protocol was not agreed in Brexit negotiations.
Where did you see this? If from an acquaintance, I would suggest they appeal because, of course, at age 70, a person can still live a perfectly normal life.

It could be they need to get a medical certificate at age 70, instead of automatic renewal or exchange, or failing that, just take the French driving test.

Quote:
Under the terms of the EU-UK Withdrawal Agreement, British residents in France will need to change their British driving licence for a French one. The good news is that you have until December 31st, 2021, to do this.

To apply, head to the Agence Nationale des titres sécurisés (ANTS) website. You’ll need to submit your current licence (only full UK or Northern Ireland driving licences are accepted), along with evidence of your residence in France, proving that you have lived in France for more than 185 days. Accepted documents include a French tax declaration or avis d’impôt sur le revenue, or proof of registration in the French healthcare system Ameli.

You will also need a photocopy of your passport or ID, proof of address (such as a recent electricity or water bill), and a passport-style photo.
French Entrée

I quote this because that person should have until Dec 2021 to appeal this.

In Finland, another EU country, what happens at age 70 is that it is a legal requirement to provide a medical certificate that you are still fit to drive (or before that age if you have a medical condition). I know someone still driving at age 99. So there should be no unfair prejudice against a British driver just because their licence expires at or after age 70.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 01:39 PM   #492
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,887
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The principles of ratification are the same.
The principle of provisional implementation is the same.

And regarding the WTO, it has a dispute settlement body...
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e...spu_body_e.htm
The EU is applying the rules which apply to 3rd countries. All of them.

Please outline the exact nature of your appeal to the WTO.

You cannot, because you have none.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 01:47 PM   #493
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
They should have switched to a French licence when they became permanent residents. Those are the rules, but a lot of Brit expats either don't know or just continued to get away with driving on their UK-issued EU licence. But it's this kind of complication that was a factor in our decision to quit Greece last year (there were others though). I still sometimes read the 'British in Greece' Facebook forums, and expats are going through all kinds of hassles as 'the protocols' were not properly agreed, as you say.
I found it all very straight forward. I had to make an appointment via trafficom, the road people. I turned up at the office with my UK licence, ID and photos, was given a temporary paper licence and received a new Finnish driving licence a few days later. I booked a couple of refresher lessons anyway just to gain confidence driving on the right with a left hand drive.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 01:49 PM   #494
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 23,498
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If a private company claims it can offer the same service for a lot less the first question should always be “how”, unless they have some revolutionary and new service/process then they can’t*. Which is why we see time and time again these companies reneging on their contracts, coming back for more money or simply dropping the keys on the desk of the ministry and saying “we’re out of here”.


*At the absolute best all they will have done is found some way to externalise or rather shove some of their expenses onto the public purse that we all end up having to pick up anyway, usually at a much higher cost.
QFT
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 01:53 PM   #495
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 23,498
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I assume, from his past pronouncements, it's the Fail or similar nationalist rags. Certainly nothing realistic.
The Fail is remarkably level-headed and impartial compared to the Express.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 02:00 PM   #496
Airfix
Graduate Poster
 
Airfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,047
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The EU is applying the rules which apply to 3rd countries. All of them.

Please outline the exact nature of your appeal to the WTO.

You cannot, because you have none.
I never said I needed to appeal to the WTO, I merely stated that were the EU to behave unreasonably we would be able to appeal to the WTO.

I agree the EU is applying the rules to 3rd countries, and save for the quickly reversed aberration in January, it is not currently unfairly treating us.
Airfix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 02:13 PM   #497
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,126
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The principles of ratification are the same.
The principle of provisional implementation is the same.

And regarding the WTO, it has a dispute settlement body...
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e...spu_body_e.htm
The WTO dispute resolution mechanism has been essentially non-functional for the last few years because the US was using it's veto to block the appointment of any new judges.



This should change with Trump gone, but it may take a while before things are back to normal. A number of countries were using an interim mechanism based on the one negotiated between Canada and the EU, but so far as I know the UK isn't among them.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 02:28 PM   #498
Airfix
Graduate Poster
 
Airfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,047
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The WTO dispute resolution mechanism has been essentially non-functional for the last few years because the US was using it's veto to block the appointment of any new judges.



This should change with Trump gone, but it may take a while before things are back to normal. A number of countries were using an interim mechanism based on the one negotiated between Canada and the EU, but so far as I know the UK isn't among them.
No disagreement with this, Trump was terrible.

This document is about EU-UK dispute resolution:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...resolution.pdf
Airfix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 03:02 PM   #499
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Gove has had a reply to his letter demanding EU help out the UK re Brexit.


Quote:
BREAKING: European Commission Maros Sefcovic has told
@michaelgove
that sweeping changes to the Protocol will not be possible, and that any flexibilities require the UK for its part to implement the terms of last December's NI Protocol
Read the full thread from Tony Connelly (journalist) here:

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/sta...619275776?s=20
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 10:31 PM   #500
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,113
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I might have voted remain, had Cameron succeeded in reform. But he failed.
What reforms were you expecting Cameron to have achieved?
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 01:01 AM   #501
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 16,955
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The Cameron government referred to the 1998 Labour human rights act and said they wanted to replace it with "a bill of rights".

If the replacement act, is compatible with the convention, then the government isn't ditching the convention.
If the replacement act, isn't compatible with the convention, then what you're saying would be correct.

The devil is in the detail.
Show me the detail.

And remember, the Boris government won't always be in power.
It was quietly dropped.
That said the leave campaign perpetuated the falsehood that it was the EU and ECHR that stopped us deporting hate preachers as opposed to government incompetence (see - Abu Hamza).
Given the number of leavers in the cabinet we may well see it return given we no longer benefit from the Dublin agreement. Brexiteers paint foreigners as the enemy destroying Britain. Immigration was the main topic in the brexit campaign. As we face self inflicted difficulties the Government will look for someone to distract the public. I wouldn't be surprised if "illegal immigrants" are the fall guys and a new Great British HR act is back on the agenda.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 01:24 AM   #502
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 32,760
Another shock - the UK will find it difficult to participate in the EU financial services market.

The UK doesn't want to abide by the EU rules and instead expect to be able to apply our own rules.

Quote:
There are signs the EU plans to cut the UK off from its financial markets, the Bank of England governor has warned.

Andrew Bailey said the City wanted to reach an agreement on financial rules, but would not accept being "dictated" to by Brussels.

Both sides are working towards a March deadline to agree an "equivalence" regime under which each would recognise the other's regulation.

But Mr Bailey said EU demands had so far been unreasonable.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56017419
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 01:51 AM   #503
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,039
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Another shock - the UK will find it difficult to participate in the EU financial services market.

The UK doesn't want to abide by the EU rules and instead expect to be able to apply our own rules.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56017419
And here I thought, that one of the Brexiteers said, that they loved to work together with the rest of the EU?
Hmmm, What were those words again?
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What made you think that wishing to be self governing meant not wanting to work with you, or to be friends ?


No, it really wasn't the entire purpose of Brexit.

The point of Brexit is political independence.

Why do you think everyone from former MP Gisela Stewart to former SDP leader Lord David Owen and Swedish born television presenter Ulrika Jonsson were onboard with it ?
Enough wishes for working together, that there apparently is a wish for the EU to directly intervene in the wellbeing of the UK's political parties.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Including services.

And most of our trade is internal anyway, not intra EU.
................
Now let me explain something:
The UK voted to leave.
Parliament voted to honour the referendum and triggered Article 50, thus confirming that the referendum wasn't merely "advisory" as bad losers had tried to make out.

Then there was an election which the Tories won with their biggest number of votes since 1992, but because Labour had started to support leaving, the Tories fell short of a majority.

Then there was Labour's Keir Starmer trying to push for a second referendum.

Then there were the delays of 2019.
Then there was another election and this time the Tories got even more votes and an outright majority, with constituencies like Bolsover falling to the Tories.

I'd never imagined in my life that Dennis Skinner's seat would turn blue, but it did, all because there was no credible alternative in order to get out of the EU.

What will it take for you to just let go of the past and accept this situation, and work with us so we can get rid of the Tories ?
But, let's be fair.
For a Brexiteer the words 'working together', mean, 'We'll do as I/we say' and there's no possibility of 'give and take' in any relationship with other countries. (only 'take', never 'give').
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 02:46 AM   #504
Airfix
Graduate Poster
 
Airfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,047
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
What reforms were you expecting Cameron to have achieved?
I didn't expect him to achieve any of the reforms he sought.
And then having failed to reform the EU, he waved defeat in the air as triumph, spent £9m on a leaflet promoting membership, at a time of austerity and insulted everyone's intelligence.

What reforms would I have wanted ?
An end to the Common Agricultural and Common Fisheries Policies as compulsory aspects of membership.
The customs union and the common external tariff would cease to be compulsory aspects of membership so that members could bilaterally negotiate their own FTAs and also delete tariffs on products they do not make or grow themselves.

A treaty declaration that the Euro was optional.

Deletion of the words "ever closer union" from future treaties.

Basically, I would have made the thing more like EFTA.
I would have made it liberal.
Airfix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 02:59 AM   #505
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The Cameron government referred to the 1998 Labour human rights act and said they wanted to replace it with "a bill of rights".

If the replacement act, is compatible with the convention, then the government isn't ditching the convention.


Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The principles of ratification are the same.
The principle of provisional implementation is the same.
Weasel words.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And regarding the WTO, it has a dispute settlement body...
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e...spu_body_e.htm
Yes it does. Is this factlet supposed to be relevant somehow to the UK demanding special treatment?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:02 AM   #506
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
What reforms were you expecting Cameron to have achieved?
Eliminated any concept of human and worker right to appease the right-wing of his party.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:05 AM   #507
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Another shock - the UK will find it difficult to participate in the EU financial services market.

The UK doesn't want to abide by the EU rules and instead expect to be able to apply our own rules.
That's not going to be tolerated by the EU. I do like how Bailey is whining that the EU is "holding the UK to unrealistically high standards", when they're the same rules as before and those applicable to the EU states.
More English exceptionalism, mixed with a desire to remove protections.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:10 AM   #508
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 99,125
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That's not going to be tolerated by the EU. I do like how Bailey is whining that the EU is "holding the UK to unrealistically high standards", when they're the same rules as before and those applicable to the EU states.
More English exceptionalism, mixed with a desire to remove protections.
That’s simply not true, the leave campaign said we would have better protections across the board, it was one of their promises……
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 03:54 AM   #509
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It was quietly dropped.
That said the leave campaign perpetuated the falsehood that it was the EU and ECHR that stopped us deporting hate preachers as opposed to government incompetence (see - Abu Hamza).
Given the number of leavers in the cabinet we may well see it return given we no longer benefit from the Dublin agreement. Brexiteers paint foreigners as the enemy destroying Britain. Immigration was the main topic in the brexit campaign. As we face self inflicted difficulties the Government will look for someone to distract the public. I wouldn't be surprised if "illegal immigrants" are the fall guys and a new Great British HR act is back on the agenda.
The irony is, the UK is one of the founder members of the ECHR and in addition, it has nothing to do with the EU.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 05:12 AM   #510
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,113
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What reforms would I have wanted ?
An end to the Common Agricultural and Common Fisheries Policies as compulsory aspects of membership.
The customs union and the common external tariff would cease to be compulsory aspects of membership so that members could bilaterally negotiate their own FTAs and also delete tariffs on products they do not make or grow themselves.
So essentially ask the EU to pretty much disband and start again, or perhaps Cameron should have said "guys, we should all leave the EU and join the EFTA".

Quote:
A treaty declaration that the Euro was optional.
Why? When Cameron did his renegotiation the UK already had an opt out from the Euro.

What I'm seeing here is essentially the UK being able to dictate what the rules should be over the desires of the other members of the EU. I know you didn't expect Cameron to be successful, but even you can see that had he gone to the EU with what you're suggesting he'd have been rejected outright.

Quote:
Deletion of the words "ever closer union" from future treaties.
Why? Those words don't actually have any political force.

Quote:
Basically, I would have made the thing more like EFTA.
I would have made it liberal.
Here's a question for you. If Scotland came forward with a similar set of demands to England, such as leaving the UK's customs union, would you be willing to do such a thing?
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 05:15 AM   #511
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,113
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The irony is, the UK is one of the founder members of the ECHR and in addition, it has nothing to do with the EU.
We're living in a world in which the UK left an international agreement that's named after its own capital city (the London Fisheries Convention).
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 05:26 AM   #512
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 16,955
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post

The point of Brexit is political independence.

Why do you think everyone from former MP Gisela Stewart to former SDP leader Lord David Owen and Swedish born television presenter Ulrika Jonsson were onboard with it ?
Nick Griffin and Tommy Robinson were also on board with it. Watching question time it seems that the aspect of political independence that mattered to brexiteers most was stopping immigration.

Sure some political idealists who favour local decision making were on board but they really were the minority. We have seen since we left the EU that immigration rules were rapidly changed whereas the request to devolve power to local areas is falling on deaf ears.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 05:56 AM   #513
Lukraak_Sisser
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,256
Thanks brexit!
Short news item in the Netherlands today how Amsterdam rocketed from 6th position last year as European stock exchange to first this year due to brokers fleeing London.

Now I realize not much taxes come from there, but it's more than it was, so cheers for that.
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 06:00 AM   #514
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 16,955
Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Thanks brexit!
Short news item in the Netherlands today how Amsterdam rocketed from 6th position last year as European stock exchange to first this year due to brokers fleeing London.

Now I realize not much taxes come from there, but it's more than it was, so cheers for that.
The city of London produces produced
10% of all UK GDP and 11.5% of total tax.

Well worth ditching for sovereignty. The rest of us will happily pay extra tax to make up the shortfall.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 06:05 AM   #515
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 34,809
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The irony is, the UK is one of the founder members of the ECHR and in addition, it has nothing to do with the EU.

Apart from being signed up to the ECHR effectively being a requirement for EU membership.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 06:16 AM   #516
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,054
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That’s simply not true, the leave campaign said we would have better protections across the board, it was one of their promises……
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 06:48 AM   #517
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,039
Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Thanks brexit!
Short news item in the Netherlands today how Amsterdam rocketed from 6th position last year as European stock exchange to first this year due to brokers fleeing London.

Now I realize not much taxes come from there, but it's more than it was, so cheers for that.
Oh, that's very nice indeed.

If I understand the numbers correctly, London is halved from what they were a year ago, while Amsterdam is almost quadrupled in the same time.

__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 06:51 AM   #518
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,126
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
No disagreement with this, Trump was terrible.
Trump comes from the same underlying ideology as Brexit. The ultimate goal of the major Brexit leaders is to bring the UK closer to "Trump's America". The EU was in the way of their agenda to get rid of consumer, worker and environmental protections, so the UK had to leave the EU before proceeding and they were happy to do so, whatever the cost.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 07:41 AM   #519
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Nick Griffin and Tommy Robinson were also on board with it. Watching question time it seems that the aspect of political independence that mattered to brexiteers most was stopping immigration.

Sure some political idealists who favour local decision making were on board but they really were the minority. We have seen since we left the EU that immigration rules were rapidly changed whereas the request to devolve power to local areas is falling on deaf ears.
Re 'Tommy Robinson' from wiki:

Quote:
In an interview with Victoria Derbyshire on BBC Radio Five live in 2010, he said that his parents "were Irish immigrants to this country"
'Tommy Robinson' has a criminal record as long as your arm.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2021, 07:54 AM   #520
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,126
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What reforms would I have wanted ?
An end to the Common Agricultural and Common Fisheries Policies as compulsory aspects of membership.
This is typical of right wing polices in the US to remove worker protections, environmental protections and so on. They propose that every state should be “have it’s own standards”. This disadvantages states who maintain higher standards and shifts wealth to states that lower their standards. The end goal is to create a race to the bottom where everyone drops all their protections, regulations and standards.
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The customs union and the common external tariff would cease to be compulsory aspects of membership so that members could bilaterally negotiate their own FTAs and also delete tariffs on products they do not make or grow themselves.
No customs union = no free travel within the EU. Everything and everyone would need to stop at every single border. The end result would be what the UK is currently experiencing X100. If you want to destroy the economy of Europe this is a how you go about it.
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
negotiate their own FTAs and also delete tariffs on products they do not make or grow themselves.
And in the process invalidate everyone else’s ability to make their own laws because those could be bypassed by using the country with lower barriers as a jumping off point kicking off a race to the bottom for all forms of worker and consumer protection.

Without a common external tariffs you can’t remove internal trade barriers. Again it would be the problems the UK is currently having X100. If you don’t set up internal barriers you directly attack the power of the individual governments involved. It’s the same thing the internal markets bill was trying to do to undermine the powers of the devolved governments within the UK. It effectively says “if you set your standards and regulations any higher than the lowest anyone else sets we’ll punish you by draining all the business and wealth from your jurisdiction. “
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
A treaty declaration that the Euro was optional.

Deletion of the words "ever closer union" from future treaties.

Basically, I would have made the thing more like EFTA.
I would have made it liberal.
A liberal approach would acknowledge the need for regulation to address market failures and “tragedy of the commons” scenarios. This sounds more like “deregulate everything to empower a new aristocracy”.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:41 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.