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Old 4th February 2021, 06:16 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
And now there are virtually no exports.
Which is better, how?
The brexiteer view seems to be that the UK shooting itself in the foot is preferable to a bullet graze from the EU.
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Old 4th February 2021, 06:51 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
And now there are virtually no exports.
Which is better, how?
The fish are happier.
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Old 4th February 2021, 07:28 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The brexiteer view seems to be that the UK shooting itself in the foot with a bullet imported from France is preferable to a bullet graze from the EU.
FTFY.
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Old 4th February 2021, 07:37 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The brexiteer view seems to be that the UK shooting itself in the foot is preferable to a bullet graze from the EU.
It does look like it.
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Old 4th February 2021, 08:42 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The brexiteer view seems to be that the UK shooting itself in the foot is preferable to a bullet graze from the EU.
Wrong.
And there were other ways to leave the EU which would have avoided this scenario which could have occurred had the "stop Brexit" gang not brought down Theresa May and given rise to Boris. But moderate Brexit voices were marginalised and compromise ceased to be a possibility, sadly.

The choices left before us were destroy our democracy, or take an economic risk.

And it really would have destroyed our economy if we hadn't left as nobody would have any faith left in voting.
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Old 4th February 2021, 08:46 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Wrong.
And there were other ways to leave the EU which would have avoided this scenario which could have occurred had the "stop Brexit" gang not brought down Theresa May and given rise to Boris. But moderate Brexit voices were marginalised and compromise ceased to be a possibility, sadly.

The choices left before us were destroy our democracy, or take an economic risk.

And it really would have destroyed our economy if we hadn't left as nobody would have any faith left in voting.
If anyone is to blame for May’s resignation it is Johnson and his supporters, how anyone can think it was anyone else is beyond me. He voted against Brexit several times, declared her deal was unworkable and then after he got what he has always expected was his by right i.e. became PM did the same deal in everything but a few switched around clauses!
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Old 4th February 2021, 08:57 AM   #167
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Actually it was both the ERG and the stop Brexit lot who voted down her bill repeatedly.
If the Stop Brexit lot had voted with her, it would have marginalised Boris ultimately that would prevented the 2019 election and probably would have resulted in a government of national unity in 2020, in response to Covid.

With a government of national unity, scientific advice would have been taken more seriously and the death toll would probably have been much lower.
And the fisheries standards alignment would probably have happened preventing export problems.
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:15 AM   #168
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hahahahahaha
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:51 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The UK was a net contributor to the EU, the EU taxpayers were British taxpayers.
The EU did not give us money, it gave us our own money back and told us how to spend it.

That decision abstracted democratic choice.
Oh good grief....
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:53 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It isn't rocket science but it is a bit more complicated than you make out. You will have seen many UK businesses complaining about difficulties since we left, similarly UK purchasers are paying extra.

We are looking at:-

If you give me £20 and I give you £11 back, and we both save £30 we are both quids in.
Simple as this economic reality is, it seems to be beyond most Brexiteers.
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:56 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Erwinl, most FTAs don't cost more than a few million a year to be members of.
Will you be supporting this claim?


Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Archie, the Dunning Kruger scale is a scale of confidence and experience.
Indeed. And Brexiteers, like you, seem to be willing to spout off about subjects you simply don't understand.
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:58 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Actually it was both the ERG and the stop Brexit lot who voted down her bill repeatedly.
If the Stop Brexit lot had voted with her, it would have marginalised Boris ultimately that would prevented the 2019 election and probably would have resulted in a government of national unity in 2020, in response to Covid.

With a government of national unity, scientific advice would have been taken more seriously and the death toll would probably have been much lower.
And the fisheries standards alignment would probably have happened preventing export problems.
Or perhaps if the Brexiters such as Johnson and the EG had supported her bill repeatedly it would have passed as she had a majority with the unionist’s votes.....

It is astonishing that you put the blame on those that didn’t want Brexit but those that did aren’t to blame even though they kept voting against Brexit bills! (And then they did vote for the same bloody bill once Johnson got his rightful position!)

The board is sure full of irony tonight.
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:58 AM   #173
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Catsmate, if you create a situation where people vote for something, you create a situation where that vote has to be honoured.

If you go back on your word, trust is destroyed and your party and any other that went along with you is finished.

Do you know what would have happened, in the long run, following a situation where Brexit hadn't gone ahead "because it was only an advisory vote" ?

Nigel Farage would have gained power.

And many of you would be scratching your head wondering why.
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Old 4th February 2021, 09:59 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Actually it was both the ERG and the stop Brexit lot who voted down her bill repeatedly.
If the Stop Brexit lot had voted with her, it would have marginalised Boris ultimately that would prevented the 2019 election and probably would have resulted in a government of national unity in 2020, in response to Covid.

With a government of national unity, scientific advice would have been taken more seriously and the death toll would probably have been much lower.
And the fisheries standards alignment would probably have happened preventing export problems.
You have to blame Jo Swinson for that ultimate debacle.

Do you mind my asking? Are you politically far right, (obviously not Labour or Communist) or Lib Dem?
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:00 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
It is prejudice to pre judge people call them all racist and assume you know what they're thinking.
Even when many of them are racist, and admit it?


Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Agreements we could independently mirror, then negotiate an upgrade that EU members couldn't ?
Right.....
It may have escaped you but the EU is a far larger trading block than the UK, and hence is likely to get better deals....
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:02 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yesterday bananas were 80p a kilo. Are we just throwing non sequiturs around or did you have a point?
Really? They're €0.43 here. Brexit bites....
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:04 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I note you're not talking about how 75% of the UK fishing fleet previously only got 4% of the quota (source Greenpeace). Those people are better off.
And the "UK fishing industry" is falling apart because it can't sellm it's catch to anyone who wants to buy it.


Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
There are also no restrictions against those fishing companies who are complaining, from selling to the home market, so why aren't they seeking to do so ?

There seems to be no end to your economic cluelessness...
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:07 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Catsmate, if you create a situation where people vote for something, you create a situation where that vote has to be honoured.

If you go back on your word, trust is destroyed and your party and any other that went along with you is finished.

Do you know what would have happened, in the long run, following a situation where Brexit hadn't gone ahead "because it was only an advisory vote" ?

Nigel Farage would have gained power.

And many of you would be scratching your head wondering why.
Is there something in there that's supposed to be relevant? Or are you just trying to divert attention from your inability to answer the points made?
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:09 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Will you be supporting this claim?
Sure:
EFTA budget:
23,792,000 CHF
https://www.efta.int/About-EFTA/Fina...nformation-748

EFTA is an FTA.

APEC has a membership fee of US$3.38 million per year.

NAFTA had a membership fee of US $1m per year.

Political customs unions which go far further than an FTA, they cost more, as they integrate economics and politics into a common system, with common agricultural policies fisheries policies and so on.

I oppose such things because they take away democratic choice.
For the same reason I oppose joining the Cairns group, despite liking the agricultural system those countries use.
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:11 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You have to blame Jo Swinson for that ultimate debacle.

Do you mind my asking? Are you politically far right, (obviously not Labour or Communist) or Lib Dem?
Far right ? Are you taking the p*ss ?!!!

My political heroes are Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner!

The far right are SCUM!

And this exercise has killed the far right stone dead.
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:14 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And the "UK fishing industry" is falling apart.
Evidence that the whole industry is falling apart now ? Rather than just the odd exporter....

And there could have been closer alignment if your side had engaged with moderates on the other side instead of trying to insult us all.
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Old 4th February 2021, 08:08 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Look at Peterhead on the Marine Traffic app all the deep sea boats are tied up alongside, I have never seen so many in port at once, it's completely full.
Same for my local ports at North Shields, Whitby and Scarborough. boats all tide up alongside.
If intentional, very clever. If unintentional, very funny.
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Old 4th February 2021, 08:19 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Archie, the Dunning Kruger scale is a scale of confidence and experience.
That's quite a mis-characterization. Can I suggest you *at least* read the wiki page. It has little to do with experience.
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Old 4th February 2021, 08:27 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Catsmate, if you create a situation where people vote for something, you create a situation where that vote has to be honoured.

If you go back on your word, trust is destroyed and your party and any other that went along with you is finished.
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And this exercise has killed the far right stone dead.
USA liberals have been saying the same thing about Republicans for decades but they are still around and still exercise considerable power. I have some confidence that the same politics works in your part of the globe.
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Old 4th February 2021, 10:14 PM   #185
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The Tories' crackpot right wing, whose silence Cameron bought in 2015 by agreeing to the referendum so their bleating wouldn't cost him the election, are now in complete control of the party and the country. Moderate Tories (and I still can't believe I'm describing the likes of Kenneth Clarke and Michael Heseltine - Thatcher's right hand men - as moderate) have been pretty much purged from the party. This government is the furthest right of any in my (nearly 70 year) lifetime.
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Old 4th February 2021, 11:05 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The Tories' crackpot right wing, whose silence Cameron bought in 2015 by agreeing to the referendum so their bleating wouldn't cost him the election, are now in complete control of the party and the country. Moderate Tories (and I still can't believe I'm describing the likes of Kenneth Clarke and Michael Heseltine - Thatcher's right hand men - as moderate) have been pretty much purged from the party. This government is the furthest right of any in my (nearly 70 year) lifetime.
So true. UKIP joined en masse and that is where the UK is now. A nutty flag-waving sinking ship, with the likes of Dominic Grieve, Ken Clarke, Philip Hammond cast adrift and veering off into the distance. Even May looks like a rabid Marxist next to what we see in power today.

In his thirst for power, Johnson saw off ex-Chancellor Sajid Javid, who at least had the integrity to resign on being ordered to give up his own [essential, independent from No. 10] aides and come under the direct control of Dominic Cummings.

All of the cabinet are little more than Johnson's nodding dogs, with very little talent to be found amongst them. Sunak is far brighter than Johnson but happily sold himself out.
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:42 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The Tories' crackpot right wing, whose silence Cameron bought in 2015 by agreeing to the referendum so their bleating wouldn't cost him the election, are now in complete control of the party and the country. Moderate Tories (and I still can't believe I'm describing the likes of Kenneth Clarke and Michael Heseltine - Thatcher's right hand men - as moderate) have been pretty much purged from the party. This government is the furthest right of any in my (nearly 70 year) lifetime.
The way to avoid that situation was obvious, but extremist Europhiles wouldn't have it. They *had to stay in at all costs* despite the UK voting not to.

As such, Theresa May, who was relatively speaking a moderate, was forced out.

If Labour had helped her out, and got her bill through, come the next election she'd have lost, because when it came to election campaigning she was hopeless.
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:46 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The way to avoid that situation was obvious, but extremist Europhiles wouldn't have it. They *had to stay in at all costs* despite the UK voting not to.

As such, Theresa May, who was relatively speaking a moderate, was forced out.

If Labour had helped her out, and got her bill through, come the next election she'd have lost, because when it came to election campaigning she was hopeless.
But the Brexiteers had the majority all the time.
How can it be the responsibilty of the non Brexiteers, that things didn't work out as imagined?
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:55 AM   #189
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From 2017-2019 Brexiteers did not have a Parliamentary majority.
There was the opportunity for moderates and Europhile extremists too, to shape our departure and get us out in a different manner, but the extremists such as Starmer wouldn't have it because the "no deal" threat was on the table (it was only ever a negotiating ploy).

There could be a different treaty now, one more favourable to him, and to you.
But he wouldn't have it.

And, on a historical note, this is all Michael Heseltine's fault.
Why ? Because in 1990, in order to ram what became the Maastricht Treaty through, the Europhiles had to get rid of Thatcher. So he challenged her for the leadership.
His friend John Major (another Europhile, and the man who caused Black Wednesday), became PM with Heseltine as Deputy PM.
They signed Maastricht without a referendum provoking a rebellion that lead to our departure.

If there had been a referendum on the Maastricht treaty, Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon...
The relationship would have been more democratic.

I suspect we wouldn't have had a referendum on membership.

Last edited by Airfix; 5th February 2021 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:02 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
But the Brexiteers had the majority all the time.
How can it be the responsibilty of the non Brexiteers, that things didn't work out as imagined?

The same way that if someone's hit by a car trying to cycle the wrong way up a busy motorway, drunk, at night, in black clothing with no lights it's the fault of the person that tried to persuade them to take a taxi.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:10 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
From 2017-2019 Brexiteers did not have a Parliamentary majority.
There was the opportunity for moderates and Europhile extremists too, to shape our departure and get us out in a different manner, but the extremists such as Starmer wouldn't have it because the "no deal" threat was on the table (it was only ever a negotiating ploy).

There could be a different treaty now, one more favourable to him, and to you.
But he wouldn't have it.

And, on a historical note, this is all Michael Heseltine's fault.
Why ? Because in 1990, in order to ram what became the Maastricht Treaty through, the Europhiles had to get rid of Thatcher. So he challenged her for the leadership.
His friend John Major (another Europhile, and the man who caused Black Wednesday), became PM with Heseltine as Deputy PM.
They signed Maastricht without a referendum provoking a rebellion that lead to our departure.

If there had been a referendum on the Maastricht treaty, Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon...
The relationship would have been more democratic.

I suspect we wouldn't have had a referendum on membership.
Oh yes, I had forgotten.

But. If in the period of 2017 - 2019 the brexiteers had no majority, then the majority was with the Remainers, wasn't it?

In that case, what was the responsibility of the brexiteers to do what was best for the country?
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:16 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Oh yes, I had forgotten.

But. If in the period of 2017 - 2019 the brexiteers had no majority, then the majority was with the Remainers, wasn't it?

In that case, what was the responsibility of the brexiteers to do what was best for the country?
Brexiteers have been in the majority since the referendum. Broadly speaking parliament was 1/3 remain, 1/3 hard brexit, 1/3 soft Brexit. It was the inability of the last two groups to see eye to eye that caused the hesitancy. This ended when Boris one if the hard brexiteers delivered a soft brexit.

Last edited by Lothian; 5th February 2021 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:23 AM   #193
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Originally hard Brexit meant leaving the single market/customs union. Only when crashing out without a withdrawal agreement and/or trade agreement became a real possibility did it get redefined to mean that.

Johnson delivered a hard Brexit by the original definition.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:26 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Brexiteers have been in the majority since the referendum. Broadly speaking parliament was 1/3 remain, 1/3 hard brexit, 1/3 soft Brexit. It was the inability of the last two groups to see eye to eye that caused the hesitancy. This ended when Boris one if the hard brexiteers delivered a soft brexit.
Hmmm.
You say, the Brexiteers thus had a majority of about 66% (doesn't matter if there was infighting), while Airfix said they were in the minority.

Those are two statements, which can't be both true.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:28 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
And now there are virtually no exports.
Which is better, how?
So lets push for the same fisheries alignment Norway has.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:29 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
From 2017-2019 Brexiteers did not have a Parliamentary majority.
There was the opportunity for moderates and Europhile extremists too, to shape our departure and get us out in a different manner, but the extremists such as Starmer wouldn't have it because the "no deal" threat was on the table (it was only ever a negotiating ploy).

There could be a different treaty now, one more favourable to him, and to you.
But he wouldn't have it.

And, on a historical note, this is all Michael Heseltine's fault.
Why ? Because in 1990, in order to ram what became the Maastricht Treaty through, the Europhiles had to get rid of Thatcher. So he challenged her for the leadership.
His friend John Major (another Europhile, and the man who caused Black Wednesday), became PM with Heseltine as Deputy PM.
They signed Maastricht without a referendum provoking a rebellion that lead to our departure.

If there had been a referendum on the Maastricht treaty, Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon...
The relationship would have been more democratic.

I suspect we wouldn't have had a referendum on membership.
Seems you have realised that Brexit was to keep the Tories together as a political party and nothing to do with the interests (never mind best) of the country.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:30 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
So lets push for the same fisheries alignment Norway has.
We’ve had 4 years trying to do that, what makes you think it is possible?
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:30 AM   #198
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https://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/press...ements-2020_en

Take a look.
It can be done without being in the customs union.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:30 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
https://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/press...ements-2020_en

Take a look.
It can be done without being in the customs union.
We aren’t Norway. (Unfortunately.)
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:32 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We’ve had 4 years trying to do that, what makes you think it is possible?
No we had four years of extremists one on side trying to stop Brexit and extremists on the other trying to get the hardest Brexit possible and those who tried to compromise, got pushed aside by Boris.

But now the fishing industry has a voice, it's time to stand with them and push for a Norway style alignment on fisheries.
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