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Old 5th February 2021, 03:48 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
No we had four years of extremists one on side trying to stop Brexit and extremists on the other trying to get the hardest Brexit possible and those who tried to compromise, got pushed aside by Boris.

But now the fishing industry has a voice, it's time to stand with them and push for a Norway style alignment on fisheries.
No - all the political negotiators were from the Brexit side.
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Old 5th February 2021, 04:01 AM   #202
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1) Theresa May's chief negotiator was Olly Robbins, a Brexiteer he is not.

2) And that's that ? Frozen, unchanging, no hope of altering the new relationship and reforming things ?
No hope of reasoning with the government ?

We're out.
That doesn't mean there's only one way for a country that isn't a member to be.

There's a myriad of possibilities in front of us, some better, some worse than the present arrangement.
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Old 5th February 2021, 04:43 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Hmmm.
You say, the Brexiteers thus had a majority of about 66% (doesn't matter if there was infighting), while Airfix said they were in the minority.

Those are two statements, which can't be both true.
A lot of brexit deals were narrowly defeated. Boris himself voted along with the ERG 6 times in two days against motions that would have had us outside the EU.

While the majority of MPs were for remaining prior to the vote that changed after when most constituencies voted leave and the MP switched to reflect the views of their constituents and their party. We are regularly reminded that the official party lines of Tory's and Labour after the referendum was to leave. Only the lib Dems, SNP and the Greens had remain as s party policy.

TLR Airfix is wrong. After the referendum the majority of MP said they would respect the referendum and they wanted the UK to leave the EU albeit they disagreed how.
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Old 5th February 2021, 04:51 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Originally hard Brexit meant leaving the single market/customs union. Only when crashing out without a withdrawal agreement and/or trade agreement became a real possibility did it get redefined to mean that.

Johnson delivered a hard Brexit by the original definition.
Yes we have ended up with the worst of both the hard and soft. We have a free trade agreement with the EU which is only part what the soft side wanted but are effectively still bound by EU rules in many ways without any say in setting them. We don't have the freedom that a truly hard brexit promised.

I dare say we are also still making a hefty contribution to Brussels as well. I have not seen a figure mentioned anywhere, not that Boris would be rushing to say haw much we are still paying. However we are still part of a number of EU programs and systems. Obviously in NI but also elsewhere. Access to them has a cost.
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Old 5th February 2021, 05:06 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
So lets push for the same fisheries alignment Norway has.
Why didn't Boris do that?

Why didn't the fisheries minister actually read the treaty instead of spending her time preparing a 'nativity trail'?

Why haven't we got an agreement with Norway to allow our boats in to their waters instead of them being alongside with no fishing grounds?
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Old 5th February 2021, 05:11 AM   #206
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"We send £350 million to the EU every week. Let's make our own businesses pay £385 million in paperwork every week instead"

£7Bn customs cost, that's just the fee for customs declarations at the UK end of the supply chain!
There's another £7Bn at the EU end. AND another £3 to £6Bn ROO paperwork if there is no deal.
BBC fact check https://bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226

That £20Bn is just the fees for processing paperwork.

@rjbarfield1 dug out the Government estimates of total NTB costs (eg 3rd party conformity testing, import licenses, local office etc) - 10% on goods and 11% on services.
https://twitter.com/rjbarfield1/stat...84432892518403

£43.8Bn + £22.5 = £66Bn
https://twitter.com/rjbarfield1/stat...18672152924161

And that doesn't include Switzerland, Norway and Iceland, or most of the 64 countries the EU has tariff free trade with.

Estimate a total cost to UK business of around £75Bn each year.
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Old 5th February 2021, 05:45 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
1) Theresa May's chief negotiator was Olly Robbins, a Brexiteer he is not.

2) And that's that ? Frozen, unchanging, no hope of altering the new relationship and reforming things ?
No hope of reasoning with the government ?

We're out.
That doesn't mean there's only one way for a country that isn't a member to be.

There's a myriad of possibilities in front of us, some better, some worse than the present arrangement.
David Davis, Liam Fox, Johnson....
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Old 5th February 2021, 11:55 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Hmmm.
You say, the Brexiteers thus had a majority of about 66% (doesn't matter if there was infighting), while Airfix said they were in the minority.

Those are two statements, which can't be both true.

I'd suggest you consider if we ended up Leaving or Remaining to resolve the conundrum. The Soft(er) Leavers stepped up a couple of times to prevent crashing out but if Remainers had really been in the driving seat a potential path to not leaving would have been put in place. Still nothing says "Good Idea" like the people who backed it blaming everyone else, eh?
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Old 5th February 2021, 12:10 PM   #209
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UK and Albania agree trade deal

Quote:
The UK has signed another post-Brexit trade deal with an emerging European country: this time, it’s Albania.

The UK and Albania will do more to tackle organised crime and stop it spreading throughout Europe, following the signing of a new partnership, trade and cooperation agreement between the two countries.

The agreement, signed on February 5, sets out the UK and Albania’s ambitions for a future relationship including the strengthening of political, economic, security and cultural ties.
https://emerging-europe.com/business...ee-trade-deal/

Albania main export leather shoes.

This replicates a previous agreement but Albania have agreed to buy more Eccles cakes and 10,000 tons of whiffy shellfish.

Another Brexit win.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 5th February 2021 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 5th February 2021, 12:39 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
UK and Albania agree trade deal



https://emerging-europe.com/business...ee-trade-deal/

Albania main export leather shoes.

This replicates a previous agreement but Albania have agreed to buy more Eccles cakes and 10,000 tons of whiffy shellfish.

Another Brexit wun.
I don't understand this "agreed to buy" thing. Are they literally going to force peeps to buy Eccles cakes?
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:16 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
David Davis, Liam Fox, Johnson....
Your point ?
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:24 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why didn't Boris do that?
Hey, don't blame me, I didn't put him there, the Stop Brexit mob did by making Labour completely unelectable.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why didn't the fisheries minister actually read the treaty instead of spending her time preparing a 'nativity trail'?
Good question? I'm not supporting her.
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why haven't we got an agreement with Norway to allow our boats in to their waters instead of them being alongside with no fishing grounds?
Again, you won't find me supporting this government.

I voted to leave the EU, I'd hoped there would be a debate as to how we did it before the government triggered article 50, but the remainers didn't want to debate it, the hard brexit side didn't want to, and the moderates got marginalised.

Same thing happened on here as it did in Westminster, instead of debating how we left, fanatical remoaners used the same failed arguments which had let them down in the referendum instead of looking at positive ways to leave.

Suggestions such as the EEA agreement were scoffed at and "not leaving" (an option taken off the table completely) were put forwards instead.

Look where that got you.

Utterly marginalised.

I feel sorry for you.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:38 PM   #213
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haha you are drunk

This is all on those that voted leave.

Why don't you want to own it?

You got what you wanted.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 5th February 2021 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:40 PM   #214
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Liz Truss tweeted

@trussliz
Today we signed a trade deal with Albania

The agreement secures vital certainty for business and supports United Kingdom jobs.

We’ve now agreed deals with 64 countries plus the EU, covering £897bn of trade.

Trade = opportunity = jobs

Trade = opportunity = jobs
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:53 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
haha you are drunk

This is all on those that voted leave.

Why don't you want to own it?

You got what you wanted.
This is on all those who delayed our March 2019 exit, remoaners and hard Brexiteers alike, the moderates were marginalised, the extremists wouldn't compromise and wouldn't see eye to eye.
One set of extremists triumphed over the other by promising to take us out.

If you cannot see that, then, perhaps that's because you yourself played a very small role in this form happening, rather than something such as the EEA agreement.
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Old 5th February 2021, 06:42 PM   #216
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Why are we called 'Remoaners' when the 'winners' won't stop ******* complaining about what they won?
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Old 6th February 2021, 12:11 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Now let me explain something:
The UK voted to leave.
Parliament voted to honour the referendum and triggered Article 50, thus confirming that the referendum wasn't merely "advisory" as bad losers had tried to make out.
I mean it was, the government just chose to follow the advice given. If the government chose to not follow the advice still would have made the referendum advisory.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
There was the opportunity for moderates and Europhile extremists too, to shape our departure and get us out in a different manner, but the extremists such as Starmer wouldn't have it because the "no deal" threat was on the table (it was only ever a negotiating ploy).
Really? The people that don't want to leave are at fault because they didn't tell people how they want to leave?

This feels like someone saying that the Australian Republic Referendum failed because the monarchists didn't vote for the kind of republic they wanted.

Quote:
There could be a different treaty now, one more favourable to him, and to you.
But he wouldn't have it.
I mean if you oppose leaving and want to rejoin, why would you want to make leaving softer at all? As well as that, if the party in question has pivoted to a remain stance, why is it their responsibility to do anything regarding leaving?

Quote:
And, on a historical note, this is all Michael Heseltine's fault.
Why ? Because in 1990, in order to ram what became the Maastricht Treaty through, the Europhiles had to get rid of Thatcher. So he challenged her for the leadership.
His friend John Major (another Europhile, and the man who caused Black Wednesday), became PM with Heseltine as Deputy PM.
They signed Maastricht without a referendum provoking a rebellion that lead to our departure.

If there had been a referendum on the Maastricht treaty, Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon...
The relationship would have been more democratic.

I suspect we wouldn't have had a referendum on membership.
I mean you could also say if the EU chose to move the parliament to the UK then there wouldn't have been a referendum on membership because the laws coming out of it would be noble British laws being fostered upon the uncivilised continentals.

The other part of it is were they required to? From what I gather in the UK referendums aren't binding so if Parliament is just allowed to sign the treaty then did they actually do anything wrong?

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Why are we called 'Remoaners' when the 'winners' won't stop ******* complaining about what they won?
They need to hide the fact that they were petulantly whining for decades and are trying to convince people that Remain supporters are being petulant.
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Old 6th February 2021, 01:04 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
instead of trying to insult us all.
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
fanatical remoaners.
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
remoaners
Um...
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:32 AM   #219
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Not all remainers are extremists.
I'm not insulting ALL remainers, only those who out of extremism seek to insult all Brexiteers.
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:37 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I mean it was, the government just chose to follow the advice given. If the government chose to not follow the advice still would have made the referendum advisory.
You're quibbling over legal semantics, anyone could see from a moral point of view it was impossible to ignore.

Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Really? The people that don't want to leave are at fault because they didn't tell people how they want to leave?
The extremists who tried to stop us leaving, marginalised the moderates who advocated compromises and deeper engagement with the European Union.

Leaving was necessary, but so was compromise.

Extremists on both sides made compromise impossible.

I blame the ERG and the Stop Brexit extremists equally for that.

Somewhere between the two opposing views, was a medium setting, a compromise that would have worked for everyone.
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:41 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Not all remainers are extremists.
I'm not insulting ALL remainers, only those who out of extremism seek to insult all Brexiteers.
Oh that is alright.
That leaves the remainers, that insult the fanatical brexiteers, off the hook.

Now for the brexiteers to stop blaiming others for the lack of Utopia that is the Brexit and then finally things can become more productive. That and not trying to get out of treaties, at the first opportunity that avails itself.
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:42 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
You're quibbling over legal semantics, anyone could see from a moral point of view it was impossible to ignore.


The extremists who tried to stop us leaving, marginalised the moderates who advocated compromises and deeper engagement with the European Union.

Leaving was necessary, but so was compromise.

Extremists on both sides made compromise impossible.

I blame the ERG and the Stop Brexit extremists equally for that.

Somewhere between the two opposing views, was a medium setting, a compromise that would have worked for everyone.
Are there no moderates, who didn't want to leave? Or does wanting to stay in the EU automatically make one an extremist?
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:46 AM   #223
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There are moderates who didn't want to leave but accepted that we voted to.
And those moderates sought to try and compromise.
Theresa May was one such person.

BUT, extremists who wanted to stay at all costs, no matter the harm it did to our democracy, plus extremists who wanted to leave at all costs no matter the harm it did to our economy, marginalised her, and the result is we now have Boris in charge.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:00 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Your point ?
“Political negotiators “
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:03 AM   #225
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Did you pay attention to the reasons David Davis gave when he resigned ?
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:03 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
There are moderates who didn't want to leave but accepted that we voted to.
And those moderates sought to try and compromise.
Theresa May was one such person.

BUT, extremists who wanted to stay at all costs, no matter the harm it did to our democracy, plus extremists who wanted to leave at all costs no matter the harm it did to our economy, marginalised her, and the result is we now have Boris in charge.
Nope. It was the extremist Brexiters that prevented us from leaving, such people like Johnson.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:05 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Did you pay attention to the reasons David Davis gave when he resigned ?
Irrelevant to the point of yours I was refuting. The extremist Brexiters were from almost literally day one of May’s premiership put into place to negotiate us leaving.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:06 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope. It was the extremist Brexiters that prevented us from leaving, such people like Johnson.
It was a case of extremists on BOTH sides doing that.
Look at the Hansards, hardcore remainers voted against the May Robbins brokered withdrawal agreement as well.

And it provided Johnson the means to use the situation to take power.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:07 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Irrelevant to the point of yours I was refuting. The extremist Brexiters were from almost literally day one of May’s premiership put into place to negotiate us leaving.
The point being Davis resigned because he wouldn't COMPROMISE.

May, sought COMPROMISE.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:08 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
No we had four years of extremists one on side trying to stop Brexit and extremists on the other trying to get the hardest Brexit possible and those who tried to compromise, got pushed aside by Boris.

But now the fishing industry has a voice, it's time to stand with them and push for a Norway style alignment on fisheries.
How do you suggest we 'stand with' the fishing industry?
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:10 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How do you suggest we 'stand with' the fishing industry?
By pushing for them to have the same terms as Norwegian fishermen.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:12 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Yes we have ended up with the worst of both the hard and soft. We have a free trade agreement with the EU which is only part what the soft side wanted but are effectively still bound by EU rules in many ways without any say in setting them. We don't have the freedom that a truly hard brexit promised.

I dare say we are also still making a hefty contribution to Brussels as well. I have not seen a figure mentioned anywhere, not that Boris would be rushing to say haw much we are still paying. However we are still part of a number of EU programs and systems. Obviously in NI but also elsewhere. Access to them has a cost.
We wanted an egg but got a hard yolk and a snotty egg white.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:16 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The point being Davis resigned because he wouldn't COMPROMISE.

May, sought COMPROMISE.
As I said the Brexit extremists were in control and prevented us leaving for years until Johnson was elected and then they agreed to pretty much the same deal they had scuppered all the times May had brought it to the house. Those that wanted to remain did not have the parliamentary majority to prevent any deal going through parliament. The only people who slowed down us leaving and could stop any deals going through parliament were those that wanted Brexit.

Those who did not want to leave had no means of preventing or slowing down us leaving after May became PM, even after she lost an outright majority her deal with the unionists meant that she had the majority to pass any Brexit deal - if those that wanted to leave voted to leave.

All the blame is on the Brexiters for us leaving, for the deal we have and so on. There is no blame on those that wanted to remain for the timings nor the deals we ended up with.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:18 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
By pushing for them to have the same terms as Norwegian fishermen.
You are aware what the Norwegians had to agree to to get that deal?
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:20 AM   #235
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What we wanted was independence, and we have that.

What you wanted, was to protect the economy.
And that is understandable. It's understandable for you to have concerns.

There's still the chance to do more to protect the economy.
Can we stop fighting and try and work together to do that ?
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:21 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You are aware what the Norwegians had to agree to to get that deal?
Obviously. As did the EU.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:23 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
UK and Albania agree trade deal



https://emerging-europe.com/business...ee-trade-deal/

Albania main export leather shoes.

This replicates a previous agreement but Albania have agreed to buy more Eccles cakes and 10,000 tons of whiffy shellfish.

Another Brexit win.
"The UK and Albania will do more to tackle organised crime and stop it spreading throughout Europe, following the signing of a new partnership, trade and cooperation agreement between the two countries."


LOL I bet Priti Patel is delighted with the prospect of Albania, Mafia crime centre of Europe with a shed load of Albanian mafia syndicate gangsters on the 'Wanted' lists across Europe and the UK now working hand-in-hand as trading partners. I know people who won't touch Italian wine for fear of mafia adulteration of same. Will people want Albanian shoes if protection rackets and <ahem> taxes are involved which never reach the Inspector of Taxes' coffers>?

Got to love the wording, 'will do more to tackle organised crime. Should that not read 'Serious Organised Crime'? At least with the new trading partnership with Mexico (CTTP) and now the lucrative cocaine drug trafficking 'consultants' from Albania, Gove will never be short of his professed favourite commodity. How will HMRC get their cut of this new trading channel?

EMNTK.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:31 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
By pushing for them to have the same terms as Norwegian fishermen.
Wasn't that what Lord Frost and Johnson were trying to do? Didn't they swear they would not let down the fisherfolk?
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:38 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Obviously. As did the EU.
But that was a deal the Brexit folk claimed they didn’t want...
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:41 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What we wanted was independence, and we have that.

What you wanted, was to protect the economy.
And that is understandable. It's understandable for you to have concerns.

There's still the chance to do more to protect the economy.
Can we stop fighting and try and work together to do that ?
The UK is an independent sovereign state and has been for hundreds of years.

We need to trade with the rest of the world for things like oranges, bananas - even lettuce from Spain, bauxite, nickel, copper, wines, petrol, etc. Thus the need for Trade agreements and partnerships.

The EU was such a trading bloc. Now we are in a Pacific Ocean trading bloc. How is this different from the EU bloc? Grant Schapps believes 'Australia is not an island like the UK' and near enough for economies of scale in logistics. Maybe you believe the UK was part of some other country and now isn't? Point to us where on the map you think the UK is or was before and after Brexit.


https://twitter.com/marshallcartoon/...345485312?s=20
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