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Old 6th February 2021, 04:50 PM   #281
Airfix
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Really ?
What about the currency question, like what currency would an independent Scotland use ?

The customs border question?

Tariff and non tariff barriers ?

Driving licences and car registrations currently processed by the DVLA at Swansea, would need to be replaced with a Scottish agency?
Passports?

The status of English people in Scotland and Scots in England?

The SNP dream of joining the EU and the hard reality that the Scottish deficit is well above that required to join the EU?
Budget deficits are not allowed above 3%, Scotland's deficit is at 28%
Even in 2019 the budget deficit was at 8.6%
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14982

EU rules here:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/gl...procedure.html

60% of Scotland's exports go to the rest of the UK whilst 19% of Scotland's exports go to the EU.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/ex...scotland-2018/


More than 1 million Scots voted to leave the EU, without their vote the UK leave vote would never have happened.
..............................

The EU is not just a trading bloc, it is a political union.
It has single market rules for public services, including energy, including rail, postal services, it forbids monopolies, including state owned monopolies.

Were it ever to create a single market for healthcare, in which monopolies are outlawed and competition is mandatory, Scotland would never EVER wish to join.

And it is a distinct possibility that the very capitalistic EU could go down that path as they've already marketised other things, like those I've already mentioned.

Seeking pretend independence is not the same as seeking real independence.

Real independence gives the UK the opportunity to get out of an externally imposed marketisation of public services.

In the future, under a Labour government there is the opportunity to undo some of the mistakes of the past, like rail privatisation.

When that happens, the Scots will see the benefits.
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:54 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Really ?
What about the currency question, like what currency would an independent Scotland use ?

The Poond.
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Old 6th February 2021, 04:56 PM   #283
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:46 PM   #284
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Project Fear

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...8-since-brexit

Who could have predicted this?
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OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
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Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:03 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Really ?
What about the currency question, like what currency would an independent Scotland use ?

The customs border question?

Tariff and non tariff barriers ?

Driving licences and car registrations currently processed by the DVLA at Swansea, would need to be replaced with a Scottish agency?
Passports?

The status of English people in Scotland and Scots in England?

The SNP dream of joining the EU and the hard reality that the Scottish deficit is well above that required to join the EU?
Budget deficits are not allowed above 3%, Scotland's deficit is at 28%
Even in 2019 the budget deficit was at 8.6%
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14982

EU rules here:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/gl...procedure.html

60% of Scotland's exports go to the rest of the UK whilst 19% of Scotland's exports go to the EU.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/ex...scotland-2018/
https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conten...ge-graphic-png

More than 1 million Scots voted to leave the EU, without their vote the UK leave vote would never have happened.
..............................

The EU is not just a trading bloc, it is a political union.
It has single market rules for public services, including energy, including rail, postal services, it forbids monopolies, including state owned monopolies.

Were it ever to create a single market for healthcare, in which monopolies are outlawed and competition is mandatory, Scotland would never EVER wish to join.

And it is a distinct possibility that the very capitalistic EU could go down that path as they've already marketised other things, like those I've already mentioned.

Seeking pretend independence is not the same as seeking real independence.

Real independence gives the UK the opportunity to get out of an externally imposed marketisation of public services.

In the future, under a Labour government there is the opportunity to undo some of the mistakes of the past, like rail privatisation.

When that happens, the Scots will see the benefits.
Project fear.
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Old 7th February 2021, 04:55 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Really ?
What about the currency question, like what currency would an independent Scotland use ?

The customs border question?

Tariff and non tariff barriers ?

Driving licences and car registrations currently processed by the DVLA at Swansea, would need to be replaced with a Scottish agency?
Passports?

The status of English people in Scotland and Scots in England?

The SNP dream of joining the EU and the hard reality that the Scottish deficit is well above that required to join the EU?
Budget deficits are not allowed above 3%, Scotland's deficit is at 28%
Even in 2019 the budget deficit was at 8.6%
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14982

EU rules here:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/gl...procedure.html

60% of Scotland's exports go to the rest of the UK whilst 19% of Scotland's exports go to the EU.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/ex...scotland-2018/
https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conten...ge-graphic-png

More than 1 million Scots voted to leave the EU, without their vote the UK leave vote would never have happened.
..............................

The EU is not just a trading bloc, it is a political union.
It has single market rules for public services, including energy, including rail, postal services, it forbids monopolies, including state owned monopolies.

Were it ever to create a single market for healthcare, in which monopolies are outlawed and competition is mandatory, Scotland would never EVER wish to join.

And it is a distinct possibility that the very capitalistic EU could go down that path as they've already marketised other things, like those I've already mentioned.

Seeking pretend independence is not the same as seeking real independence.

Real independence gives the UK the opportunity to get out of an externally imposed marketisation of public services.

In the future, under a Labour government there is the opportunity to undo some of the mistakes of the past, like rail privatisation.

When that happens, the Scots will see the benefits.
The UK is the last sad remnant of the English dominated and controlled British Empire.
Without it England is just a little country off the edge of Europe again.

As McAngus said to Blackadder "I hope life doesn’t become too dull now that you won’t be able to pass laws over Scotland."

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 7th February 2021 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:01 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I note your contempt for Scotland.

It doesn't make any ******* sense does it? One union of different people good at any cost. another union of different people fundamentally bad.

I'm on Teesside. I'm closer to Scotland than I am to London, culturally as well as geographically.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 7th February 2021 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:03 AM   #288
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Liz Truss just said we were "always clear" there would be barriers to trade.
Which is true, because this is what she said in 2016 before she swapped her principles for her career.

"I don't want my daughters to grow up in a world where they need a Visa or permit to work in Europe, or where they are hampered from growing a business because of extortionate costs and barriers to trade."
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:10 AM   #289
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The volume of exports going through British ports to the EU fell by a staggering 68% last month compared with January last year, mostly as a result of problems caused by Brexit, the Observer can reveal.

The dramatic drop in the volume of traffic carried on ferries and through the Channel tunnel has been reported to Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove by the Road Haulage Association after a survey of its international members. In a letter to Gove dated 1 February, the RHA’s chief executive, Richard Burnett, also told the minister he and his officials had repeatedly warned over several months of problems and called for measures to lessen difficulties – but had been largely ignored.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...8-since-brexit
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:14 AM   #290
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You have to place the fault for that at the feet of businesses, the government ran several telly adverts telling them something would change 1st Jan and they needed to be ready. Obviously they weren’t ready therefore their fault.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:21 AM   #291
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Those who promised you Brexit would be better and that there were only considerable upsides to leaving the EU have presided over the trade deal that sees a 68% drop in exports with nothing in place to replace them for UK businesses. Utter failure.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:22 AM   #292
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Let's move a bit forward in time.

What is the eventual resolution on the Emerald Isle? Northern Ireland seems to have been given the very worst parts of the deal being half in and half out- mistreated like proverbial red-headed step-children.

I think whatever the Irish want for themselves, between themselves, for the good of their own, will eventually win out.
But what does that look like?

Do they renegotiate with both overlords? Does someone switch allegiance? Are internal borders reinstated? Do they just get used to the 'new rules'?
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:23 AM   #293
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English people will never concede that they've been systematically ****** over by the upper classes until they see the "union" as a way of placating the tory voters by subjugation of the rest.

Brexit is the final concession that the Empire is dead. It has opened the eyes of those in Scotland, Ireland and increasingly in Wales too.
Don't fall for the bollocks of the same people who told you European integration was bad telling you the union is a good thing.

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Old 7th February 2021, 05:30 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Let's move a bit forward in time.

What is the eventual resolution on the Emerald Isle? Northern Ireland seems to have been given the very worst parts of the deal being half in and half out- mistreated like proverbial red-headed step-children.

I think whatever the Irish want for themselves, between themselves, for the good of their own, will eventually win out.
But what does that look like?

Do they renegotiate with both overlords? Does someone switch allegiance? Are internal borders reinstated? Do they just get used to the 'new rules'?
The “peace” or rather “not as much non-peace as before” was partly arrived at by there being a process recognised in law by both the UK and Irish governments for a reunification of Ireland into one state. (Belfast/GF agreement.)

See here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...-reunification

It is a very clear and surprisingly quite straightforward process - not like say Scottish independence for which there is no legal process.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:44 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The “peace” or rather “not as much non-peace as before” was partly arrived at by there being a process recognised in law by both the UK and Irish governments for a reunification of Ireland into one state. (Belfast/GF agreement.)

See here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...-reunification

It is a very clear and surprisingly quite straightforward process - not like say Scottish independence for which there is no legal process.
I am aware of the GF agreements and hopefully they can retain that. But under the EU regulations that now apply to the islands borders as a whole, how will it be resolved?

It seems weird to move product from the UK to the UK and still be under the thumb of the EU inspectors. Surely this cannot last long term. Or can it?
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Old 7th February 2021, 06:02 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I am aware of the GF agreements and hopefully they can retain that. But under the EU regulations that now apply to the islands borders as a whole, how will it be resolved?

It seems weird to move product from the UK to the UK and still be under the thumb of the EU inspectors. Surely this cannot last long term. Or can it?
It is what the Brexiters negotiated, what they wanted and what they voted to sign so can’t see why it can’t go on long term.

Or are you suggesting that the Brexiters screwed up?
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Old 7th February 2021, 06:08 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is what the Brexiters negotiated, what they wanted and what they voted to sign so can’t see why it can’t go on long term.

Or are you suggesting that the Brexiters screwed up?
I am not familiar enough with it to give an informed opinion, which is why I ask. It seems to me now that indeed, the Brexiter negotiators screwed Ireland up the wazoo.
But what is the solution to it?
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Old 7th February 2021, 06:21 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I am not familiar enough with it to give an informed opinion, which is why I ask. It seems to me now that indeed, the Brexiter negotiators screwed Ireland up the wazoo.
But what is the solution to it?
There isn’t any solution beyond what we have.

We have an agreement with Ireland that there will be no “hard” border between NI and the rest of Ireland. To not have that requires us to have a hard border between NI and the rest of the UK.
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Old 7th February 2021, 06:34 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is what the Brexiters negotiated, what they wanted and what they voted to sign so can’t see why it can’t go on long term.

Or are you suggesting that the Brexiters screwed up?

Putting Brexiteers in charge of Brexit was a clear act of sabotage by the remainers.
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Old 7th February 2021, 06:51 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Those who promised you Brexit would be better and that there were only considerable upsides to leaving the EU have presided over the trade deal that sees a 68% drop in exports with nothing in place to replace them for UK businesses. Utter failure.
Well I suppose if the intention of Brexit was to make the UK less dependent on the EU for trade - it's worked.
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Old 7th February 2021, 07:19 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Only the Commission can initiate legislation in the EU Parliament, and they aren't elected.

MEPs despite being elected cannot put forwards Private Members Bills.
They may only approve / amend / reject legislation, it's time consuming and messy.
In other words, the MEP's decide if the legislation passes. They have the ultimate power.
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Old 7th February 2021, 07:40 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
In other words, the MEP's decide if the legislation passes. They have the ultimate power.
The differences with our system are not significant. In the UK ministers chosen by the PM put forward motions for parliament to vote on. In the EU commissioners chosen by PMs put forward motions for parliament to vote on.

It really is 6 and 2 3s. Of course our brexit xenophobes will favour the British system and try to make out that the EU is wholly undemocratic criticising unelected commissioners ignoring our unelected ministers.
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Old 7th February 2021, 07:42 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
In other words, the MEP's decide if the legislation passes. They have the ultimate power.
In other words they cannot put forwards Private Members Bills they act like the House of Lords does in this country. I know how the system works, it just falls short of my requirements.

If that's good enough for you, fine, but it wasn't for me.
And 17.41 million people voted leave.

Now we're out, there are other issues to address, like our own system.

The suggestion of a directly elected Prime Minister was made.
I like it.

How about a referendum on that ?
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Old 7th February 2021, 07:52 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The differences with our system are not significant. In the UK ministers chosen by the PM put forward motions for parliament to vote on. In the EU commissioners chosen by PMs put forward motions for parliament to vote on.

It really is 6 and 2 3s. Of course our brexit xenophobes will favour the British system and try to make out that the EU is wholly undemocratic criticising unelected commissioners ignoring our unelected ministers.
1) I know how the system works, I just don't like it.

2) I resent the strawman xenophobe argument.
Nothing I've ever posted is xenophobic.
I have friends who are EU migrants I've dated EU migrants.
I have no problem with foreigners coming living and working here.
They pay tax. They deserve the right to vote.
It should be easier for them to become British citizens.

I do have a problem with foreigners coming, running out of money and dying here in abject poverty. The immigration system needs to ensure that economic migrants without the funds, cannot gamble on coming here, then failing.
Pawel Koseda was a homeless Polish man who was found impaled on railings in Kensington, in what appears to be a suicide.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-9981456.html

The only concerns I have about immigration are about people's welfare.

3) Our own Parliamentary system needs reform. AV has been ruled out unfortunately, but PR has not. We should have a referendum on PR.

4) We should also have a referendum on whether or not to have a directly elected Prime Minister.

5) Never call or imply xenophobia to people you don't know, again.
It's ignorant and bigoted to make sweeping statements and premature judgements of character.
You don't know me, I don't know you.

We may not be friends but we are not enemies either.

Give it a rest with the sulking.
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:04 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Well I suppose if the intention of Brexit was to make the UK less dependent on the EU for trade - it's worked.
The intention was to facilitate greater democracy.
And that's a work in progress.

The problem with any political system, including British democracy, is it doesn't scale well.

The more people any government has to cater for, the more people lose out and get out voted.

The more localised the power, the closer it is to the people, and the more represented the people are.
Regional aka devolved government should be the next step.

More devolved powers should be handed to Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland, with the option for their Parliaments to devolve those powers further, to county councils.
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:20 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Really ?
Yes. Feel free to take your comments to the appropriate thread.

Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The Poond.

The Scots Pound will return, tied to the Euro of course.
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:22 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Project Fear

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...8-since-brexit

Who could have predicted this?
Pretty much everyone with a working knowledge of economics, logistics, the incompetence of the UKGov and the cretinous idiocy of BoJo and his cronies?
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:24 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Liz Truss just said we were "always clear" there would be barriers to trade.
Which is true, because this is what she said in 2016 before she swapped her principles for her career.

"I don't want my daughters to grow up in a world where they need a Visa or permit to work in Europe, or where they are hampered from growing a business because of extortionate costs and barriers to trade."
I'm going to have to see evidence that Truss ever possessed principles.
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:33 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Let's move a bit forward in time.

What is the eventual resolution on the Emerald Isle?
I'm thinking some sort of wall.
Perhaps President Biden will sell the Trump one cheap? And all that fencing used in DC doesn't seem to be needed.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Northern Ireland seems to have been given the very worst parts of the deal being half in and half out- mistreated like proverbial red-headed step-children.
Well BoJo didn't care two ***** once he wasn't dependent on the DUP votes. He's also stupid, ignorant and lazy (in the Trumpian style) which doesn't help.
And the current generation DUP lack the skills to manage the situation; hence they are now royally screwed (pun intended).

I expect trouble to really kick off in six months when the lockdown is eased, the customs checks really bite and the marching season begins.
The Loyalists are seeing their irrelevance and impotence, there will be trouble. The situation is comparable to that in the USA with the Trumpists.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I think whatever the Irish want for themselves, between themselves, for the good of their own, will eventually win out.
As long as the Republic gets a veto on any reunification.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Do they renegotiate with both overlords?
Not willingly for the Loyalists.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Does someone switch allegiance?
Unlikely. The moderate non-aligned faction is growing which is interesting, and hopeful.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Are internal borders reinstated?
Between Ireland and Norn Iron, Ireland and UK (with NI), Ireland and UK (excluding NI) or Norn Iron and rUK?

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Do they just get used to the 'new rules'?
They'll need to be bribed, as usual, and that is a tricky matter at present.
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:36 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is what the Brexiters negotiated, what they wanted and what they voted to sign so can’t see why it can’t go on long term.
Except the voters, both the mob and the MPs, didn't read or understand the agreements and didn't know what they signed.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or are you suggesting that the Brexiters screwed up?
I believe "well duh" is the appropriate response......
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:37 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I am not familiar enough with it to give an informed opinion, which is why I ask. It seems to me now that indeed, the Brexiter negotiators screwed Ireland up the wazoo.
But what is the solution to it?
Are you referring to Norn Iron, the Republic or both?
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:38 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The differences with our system are not significant. In the UK ministers chosen by the PM put forward motions for parliament to vote on. In the EU commissioners chosen by PMs put forward motions for parliament to vote on.

It really is 6 and 2 3s. Of course our brexit xenophobes will favour the British system and try to make out that the EU is wholly undemocratic criticising unelected commissioners ignoring our unelected ministers.
What about the US model, with cabinet officers appointed by the president and not being members of either house, or otherwise "elected"?
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:49 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
In other words they cannot put forwards Private Members Bills

It seems you don't comprehend the UK's governance.
Tqo starting questions:
1. How much time is allocated for all PMBs in each parliamentary session?
Thirteen days. All Fridays BTW.

2. How many PMS have made it into law in the last forty years?
356, or less than nine per year. This is an illusion of importance however as most of the Acts passed were either trivial or effectively government policy anyway.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:04 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
In other words they cannot put forwards Private Members Bills they act like the House of Lords does in this country. I know how the system works, it just falls short of my requirements.
The Lords cannot reject a bill just send it back for further amendments.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:06 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
5) Never call or imply xenophobia to people you don't know, again.
It's ignorant and bigoted to make sweeping statements and premature judgements of character.
You don't know me, I don't know you.
You're a leave voter. All leave voters are xenophobes. The "I've dated EU peeps" is just the 2021 version of "I have black friends but...."
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:06 AM   #316
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1) More than is allocated in the EU Parliament.
2) All these:
https://researchbriefings.files.parl...68/SN04568.pdf
This list includes a bill by Peter Bruinvels in 1987, to restrict the sale of crossbows to under 17s, citing numerous examples of accidental and deliberate killings with the things.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debat...7-01-30a.590.1

The ability to directly propose legislation, is a brilliant power that our MPs have, it means that even a party with just one MP, like the Green Party, can propose legislation to the House, spark a debate, and change the laws of this country.

There may not be enough time allocated, but there are ten whole pages of private members legislation that has gone on to the statute books since the 1980's.
It's not to be scoffed at.

Besides, we're out of the EU. Let go of the past.

Engagement with our MPs and their ability to put forwards Private Members Bills on our behalf is important as we move forwards.

Early Day Motions are another useful political tool of theirs.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:10 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
You're a leave voter. All leave voters are xenophobes. The "I've dated EU peeps" is just the 2021 version of "I have black friends but...."
^ bullsheet.
I am a leave voter. I am not xenophobic.
There is nothing xenophobic about disliking the governance of the Commission, some of those unelected Commissioners were ours.

Your arguments are bigoted.

You are narrow minded, thoughtless and could not convince people to remain.
Through ignorance and childishness, you lash out, because "a Brexiteer couldn't possibly be intelligent, rational or non racist".
Your arguments are utterly stupid.
Do some research, LEARN.

Last edited by Airfix; 7th February 2021 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:12 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Well I suppose if the intention of Brexit was to make the UK less dependent on the EU for trade - it's worked.
And lets not forget that is only the drop in physical items. Wonder what the services drop will be?
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:15 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The intention was to facilitate greater democracy. …snip…
Don’t know which referendum you voted in but the one I did asked nothing about facilitate greater democracy it was about whether to leave or remain a member of the EU.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:16 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Yes. Feel free to take your comments to the appropriate thread.



The Scots Pound will return, tied to the Euro of course.
Doubt it. As a condition for entry to the EU Scotland will have to move to the Euro.
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