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Old 7th February 2021, 09:20 AM   #321
Airfix
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The 2016 referendum.

As I stated before, politics doesn't scale well, the bigger the populace being governed, the fewer there are who feel adequately represented.

More and more powers have been handed to the EU, which have resulted in marketisation of services, from energy, to buses, trains, postal services, I fear a situation in which a single market for healthcare is established during a period of largely right wing rule in the EU which cannot be easily undone.

At the time of the referendum 19 of the 28 Commissioners, including ours, were right wingers. The possibility of them marketising healthcare the way the Bolkstein bill marketised other services, and the railway packages have marketised rail services, is a genuine one.

In such a scenario, monopolies would be illegal under TFEU101 which states:

Quote:
Article 101

(ex Article 81 TEC)

1. The following shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market: all agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices which may affect trade between Member States and which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition within the internal market, and in particular those which:

(a) directly or indirectly fix purchase or selling prices or any other trading conditions;

(b) limit or control production, markets, technical development, or investment;

(c) share markets or sources of supply;

(d) apply dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage;


(e) make the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.

2. Any agreements or decisions prohibited pursuant to this Article shall be automatically void.

3. The provisions of paragraph 1 may, however, be declared inapplicable in the case of:

- any agreement or category of agreements between undertakings,

- any decision or category of decisions by associations of undertakings,

- any concerted practice or category of concerted practices,

which contributes to improving the production or distribution of goods or to promoting technical or economic progress, while allowing consumers a fair share of the resulting benefit, and which does not:

(a) impose on the undertakings concerned restrictions which are not indispensable to the attainment of these objectives;

(b) afford such undertakings the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the products in question.
The NHS would constitute a monopoly.
The Tories would utterly privatise it.
We would never get it back.

That was a big concern to me, our NHS is worth taking an economic risk for.
As is our democracy.

Last edited by Airfix; 7th February 2021 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:20 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
1) More than is allocated in the EU Parliament.
2) All these:
https://researchbriefings.files.parl...68/SN04568.pdf
This list includes a bill by Peter Bruinvels in 1987, to restrict the sale of crossbows to under 17s, citing numerous examples of accidental and deliberate killings with the things.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debat...7-01-30a.590.1

The ability to directly propose legislation, is a brilliant power that our MPs have, it means that even a party with just one MP, like the Green Party, can propose legislation to the House, spark a debate, and change the laws of this country.

There may not be enough time allocated, but there are ten whole pages of private members legislation that has gone on to the statute books since the 1980's.
It's not to be scoffed at.

Besides, we're out of the EU. Let go of the past.

Engagement with our MPs and their ability to put forwards Private Members Bills on our behalf is important as we move forwards.

Early Day Motions are another useful political tool of theirs.
We had all those tools of democracy when we where in the EU, the difference was that by being in the EU we had even greater democracy than we have now. Leaving the EU reduced our “levels of democracy”.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:24 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The 2016 referendum.

As I stated before, politics doesn't scale well, the bigger the populace being governed, the fewer there are who feel adequately represented.

More and more powers have been handed to the EU, which have resulted in marketisation of services, from energy, to buses, trains, postal services, I fear a situation in which a single market for healthcare is established during a period of largely right wing rule in the EU which cannot be easily undone.

At the time of the referendum 19 of the 28 Commissioners, including ours, were right wingers. The possibility of them marketising healthcare the way the Bolkstein bill marketised other services, and the railway packages have marketised rail services, is a genuine one.

In such a scenario, monopolies would be illegal under TFEU101 which states:



The NHS would constitute a monopoly.
The Tories would utterly privatise it.
We would never get it back.

That was a big concern to me, our NHS is worth taking an economic risk for.
As is our democracy.
Monopolies are illegal in the UK under UK law.
There isn’t a NHS in the UK and the NHSs we have wouldn’t have fallen foul of any EU provisions against monopolies.

(I think I’ve found the site you are using, I’ll see if I am right.)
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:27 AM   #324
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State monopolies are not illegal in some sectors.
NHS England has a monopoly on healthcare in England, NHS Scotland has a monopoly in healthcare in Scotland, other providers exist in parallel to the state ones yes.
But they cannot truly compete with the state for public sector contracts.

An imposed marketisation would change the landscape.

This is the site I was using:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...08E101:EN:HTML

Last edited by Airfix; 7th February 2021 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:29 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
State monopolies are not illegal in some sectors.
NHS England has a monopoly on healthcare in England, NHS Scotland has a monopoly in healthcare in Scotland, other providers exist in parallel to the state ones yes.
But they cannot truly compete with the state for public sector contracts.

An imposed marketisation would change the landscape.
None of our NHSs are classed as monopolies under any EU legislation or proposed EU legislation.

However one wonders what you are arguing for - have you forgotten we left the EU over a year ago?

(ETA: And your er.. .English bias really shines through, great way of helping keep the UK together! Every bit helps those that want my country torn apart.)
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:33 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And lets not forget that is only the drop in physical items. Wonder what the services drop will be?
We have clients who are crapping themselves over that possibility. It's serious money and serious job losses, not the pathetic fishing business.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:34 AM   #327
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What I am doing is making a point to another poster who moronically accused me of xenophobia.

There are arguments for independence that are not all anti foreigner.

The same arguments could apply to Scottish independence or anywhere else.
If they want to be self governing, in complete control of their own laws, they would go with my blessing and my respect.

There are lessons to be learned from history.
Empires don't work.
The best thing about the British Empire, is that it ended.

The EU is trying to create a bigger and bigger political system, through sheer size, it cannot work as well as smaller states can, because ever more people get left out.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:34 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Doubt it. As a condition for entry to the EU Scotland will have to move to the Euro.
I was being facetious. If course they'll go Euro.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:35 AM   #329
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If that ever becomes their democratic wish, rather than just the SNP's, I'll respect it and wish them well.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:38 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
State monopolies are not illegal in some sectors.
NHS England has a monopoly on healthcare in England, NHS Scotland has a monopoly in healthcare in Scotland, other providers exist in parallel to the state ones yes.
But they cannot truly compete with the state for public sector contracts.

An imposed marketisation would change the landscape.

This is the site I was using:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...08E101:EN:HTML
I would think the existence of private clinics, hospitals and the private practice of surgeons and specialists plus most dentistry would suggest that the NHS does not have a monopoly on healthcare.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:41 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The NHS would constitute a monopoly.
The Tories would utterly privatise it.
We would never get it back.

That was a big concern to me, our NHS is worth taking an economic risk for.
As is our democracy.
Sigh. They whole Brexit nonsense was to keep the Conservatives in power and people fell for it. The Brexiteers (i.e. you) gave BoJo the majority he will use, and is using, to dismantle the NHS.
And you continue to prattle on about "lost democracy" and "
saving the NHS".

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We had all those tools of democracy when we where in the EU, the difference was that by being in the EU we had even greater democracy than we have now. Leaving the EU reduced our “levels of democracy”.
Simple facts that Brexiteers don't want to accept.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:20 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I would think the existence of private clinics, hospitals and the private practice of surgeons and specialists plus most dentistry would suggest that the NHS does not have a monopoly on healthcare.
Private practices exist in compliment to the NHS, they cannot match the capacity of the NHS. In that respect, the NHS does have a monopoly.

Now, consider a scenario in which the monopoly is broken just as British Rail's was, there could still be an NHS of sorts, but there would be a market for contracts in which the private sector could bid, and take over the operation of hospitals.

I do not want that scenario, even if it were still free at the point of delivery. It would introduce a middleman that I do not want and a possibility of things going further and further towards the American system which isn't free at the point of delivery.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:24 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Sigh. They whole Brexit nonsense was to keep the Conservatives in power
It's the, not they.
And the whole reason for it, is the public want it.
Anti democrats, (lets call them fascists, because that's what fascists are) don't.

And you fell for lite fascism.

There's far more support for it than you realise.
It extends far beyond the Tory party, and had Labour gone all in behind the policy, Labour would be looking like a party of government now.

You do not understand and that is why you keep failing.

We are a greater democracy now, than we were 10 years ago.
People can see that their votes actually count.

Last edited by Airfix; 7th February 2021 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:33 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I'm going to have to see evidence that Truss ever possessed principles.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...84b1c5ab80.png
Good luck with that
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:36 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Private practices exist in compliment to the NHS, they cannot match the capacity of the NHS. In that respect, the NHS does have a monopoly.



Now, consider a scenario in which the monopoly is broken just as British Rail's was, there could still be an NHS of sorts, but there would be a market for contracts in which the private sector could bid, and take over the operation of hospitals.



I do not want that scenario, even if it were still free at the point of delivery. It would introduce a middleman that I do not want and a possibility of things going further and further towards the American system which isn't free at the point of delivery.
Oh, so it's not a monopoly, it's a thing you erroneously refer to as a monopoly because if you close one eye and tilt your head after spinning around five times on the first full moon after the vernal equinox, it kinda looks monopol-ish.

Also, you've completely missed that the NHS can be dismantled whether the UK is in the EU or not.

Oops, correction..."is being" rather than "can be."
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:38 AM   #336
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The NHS could be dismantled outside the EU, but any government that did, would be out on it's ear, and it's successor would have a mandate to renationalise it.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:47 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The NHS could be dismantled outside the EU, but any government that did, would be out on it's ear, and it's successor would have a mandate to renationalise it.
I do believe you're walking sideways, now.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:55 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
"a Brexiteer couldn't possibly be intelligent, rational or non racist".
Correct. Their actions, and words, prove it. If they had any of those traits they would have voted remain.
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:02 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Oh, so it's not a monopoly, it's a thing you erroneously refer to as a monopoly because if you close one eye and tilt your head after spinning around five times on the first full moon after the vernal equinox, it kinda looks monopol-ish.

Also, you've completely missed that the NHS can be dismantled whether the UK is in the EU or not.

Oops, correction..."is being" rather than "can be."
It's kinda funny isn't it. The mental gymnastics leave voters employ to try and come up with reasons why they voted the way they did so as to avoid admitting they are just xenophobes.
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:02 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Private practices exist in compliment to the NHS, they cannot match the capacity of the NHS. In that respect, the NHS does have a monopoly.

Now, consider a scenario in which the monopoly is broken just as British Rail's was, there could still be an NHS of sorts, but there would be a market for contracts in which the private sector could bid, and take over the operation of hospitals.

I do not want that scenario, even if it were still free at the point of delivery. It would introduce a middleman that I do not want and a possibility of things going further and further towards the American system which isn't free at the point of delivery.
And this is much more likely given the Brexit government we have.
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:06 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The NHS could be dismantled outside the EU, but any government that did, would be out on it's ear, and it's successor would have a mandate to renationalise it.
Again - there is no: “The NHS”

NHS England has already been dismantled and is now in the hands of private companies who control a huge amount of the budget and where it is spent. All of that happened whilst we were in the EU and by the current lot in government.

And again what has this got to do with Brexit?
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:07 AM   #342
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Of course there was a lot of support for Brexit, as it promised, like all populist movements, that post-Brexit you'd have your cake and could eat it too.

Whereas the remain camp had to stay with reality, which is nowhere near as glorious.

Yet post-brexit reality will win, and the promises of brexit will be / are already broken.

The UK seems to forget that joining the EU was not an invasion but an act of desperation as the UK could not cut it alone in the 70's.
That has not changed.
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:11 AM   #343
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What we need is to subjugate a third of the planet and force them to buy our shoddy stuff.
Then we can claim it's the best in the world because a third of the world buys it while those that have any money buy their cars from Germany, watches from Switzerland and suits from Italy.
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:13 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I do believe you're walking sideways, now.
He is parroting stuff from elsewhere, in another thread he was saying in response to rumours about Tory policy changes in regards to NHS England that “PFI should be scrapped”. It has already been scrapped!

The usual reason for singling out PFI is it is something that has been popularised as something bad that Labour did, so this “bad policy” can be laid at the feet of “Labour”. Even though it was a Tory government that created the policy! And of course was not limited to any procurement in any NHS.
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:15 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Of course there was a lot of support for Brexit, as it promised, like all populist movements, that post-Brexit you'd have your cake and could eat it too.

Whereas the remain camp had to stay with reality, which is nowhere near as glorious.

Yet post-brexit reality will win, and the promises of brexit will be / are already broken.

The UK seems to forget that joining the EU was not an invasion but an act of desperation as the UK could not cut it alone in the 70's.
That has not changed.
Nonsense - the euros begged us to join to save them just like we had to do during WW2…….

Any way what did that greatest ever Britain Churchill know when he wanted a political union of the European powers? No one respects that bloke!
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:17 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The NHS could be dismantled outside the EU, but any government that did, would be out on it's ear, and it's successor would have a mandate to renationalise it.
Its not it's
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:21 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
He is parroting stuff from elsewhere, in another thread he was saying in response to rumours about Tory policy changes in regards to NHS England that “PFI should be scrapped”. It has already been scrapped!

The usual reason for singling out PFI is it is something that has been popularised as something bad that Labour did, so this “bad policy” can be laid at the feet of “Labour”. Even though it was a Tory government that created the policy! And of course was not limited to any procurement in any NHS.
For anyone wishing to delve deeper into the UK’s NHSs I suggest starting here: The Kings Fund and here for the budget stuff: https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/project...ell/nhs-budget
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:26 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Its not it's
Ah, don't nit pick, he misused compliment as well, and that's much worse.
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:30 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Pretty much everyone with a working knowledge of economics, logistics, the incompetence of the UKGov and the cretinous idiocy of BoJo and his cronies?
Oh yes, I knew someone would have spotted that. Except I'd say OR rather than AND.

As an aside, a couple of days ago I retweeted myself from July:

https://twitter.com/ParkinJim/status...817645568?s=20

Quote:
Jim Parkin🕯 #BLM
@ParkinJim
·
Jul 23, 2020
Oh, he's highlighting that the shellfish fishermen mostly sell to Europe?

Nice one.
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I'm going to have to see evidence that Truss ever possessed principles.
Her character development is the reverse trajectory of the Lion, Scarecrow, and Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz. All rolled in one.
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:48 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again - there is no: “The NHS”



NHS England has already been dismantled and is now in the hands of private companies who control a huge amount of the budget and where it is spent. All of that happened whilst we were in the EU and by the current lot in government.



And again what has this got to do with Brexit?
"We're doing it for the NHS" seems a corollary to our constant refrain in the states "but think of the children!"

Usually stated while proposing some idea objectively harmful to children.

*glances up thread* I see the pattern fits here.
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Old 7th February 2021, 12:21 PM   #351
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Oh and just so you can all feel a bit better - these are the good times! It’s only going to get worse: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-checks-loom

“…. One logistics firm warned the situation had “disaster written all over it”, saying businesses need more time to prepare, while accountancy firm KPMG said some of the “biggest headaches” facing traders are yet to come. Importers fear UK customs are not ready for the new controls, and that logjams at points of entry could cause fruit and vegetable shortages in the spring….”
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Old 7th February 2021, 01:17 PM   #352
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Vaccine Minister Nadhim Zahawi uses offshore tax havens to keep his ill gotten gains from the exchequer.
He is a Brexiter who wanted the UK to leave the EU so that he could keep avoiding tax.
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Old 7th February 2021, 01:42 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The NHS could be dismantled outside the EU, but any government that did, would be out on it's ear, and it's successor would have a mandate to renationalise it.
You really are clueless about what's going on, aren't you?
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Old 7th February 2021, 02:27 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Are you referring to Norn Iron, the Republic or both?

Both. The island as a whole seems set for years of mistrust, and that can't end well.

I have been looking into just how Switzerland manages while fully surrounded. Seems they developed agreements over the years that allow them to trade and move freely but not be a member at the same time. They go along for the most part but keep sovereign veto in their back pocket. I would need a lot more reading to understand how they make it work.

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Old 7th February 2021, 02:44 PM   #355
Darat
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Both. The island as a whole seems set for years of mistrust, and that can't end well.

I have been looking into just how Switzerland manages while fully surrounded. Seems they developed agreements over the years that allow them to trade and move freely but not be a member at the same time. They go along for the most part but keep sovereign veto in their back pocket. I would need a lot more reading to understand how they make it work.
It is a rather unique situation. Remember the UK isn’t really out of our civil war, it is at best an imperfect ceasefire. You really can’t compare it to a country not torn with a civil war.

To achieve the limited peace we have we had to agree to no hard border between Ireland and the part of the UK known as Northern Ireland, if we reneged on that we would see the peace as it is broken. Which means to have the no hard border deal with Ireland we have to have a hard border within the UK and the part of the UK known as Northern Ireland. It is in fact a very considerate compromise by the EU to allow us to have the deal with have. It’s a unique deal for the EU for a unique situation.
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Old 7th February 2021, 04:40 PM   #356
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The Irish are livid with the EU over the vaccine fiasco in which Ursula von der Leyen was willing to impose a hard border on vaccines, even Sinn Fein, the former political wing of the IRA were scathing in their criticism of the EU.

Right now, all we have to do is be fair and let the EU keep shooting itself in the foot and Ireland will turn on the EU.

One of the big problems with the EU is it's penchant for authoritarianism.
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Old 7th February 2021, 04:45 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
You really are clueless about what's going on, aren't you?
What you really mean is that I'm not a fantasist Europhile who thinks everything is wonderful whilst all around me everythings going up in flames.

As I don't share your delusion, you would be puzzled.
But you are deluded.

And meanwhile, there's been Black Wednesday, the Greek sovereign debt crisis, the Italian crisis, the Piigs crisis, imposed marketisations and I simply do not agree with the policies of the Commission.

Do I like the Tories and the way they have handled this ? NO.

But what was the alternative ?
Remaining part of an authoritarian corporatist clique that is deeply flawed unreformable and just does not work.

Open your eyes man.

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Paxman in Brussels, a BBC documentary.
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Old 7th February 2021, 04:52 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Correct. Their actions, and words, prove it. If they had any of those traits they would have voted remain.
^ A moronic and dishonest argument and your actions, and words and traits prove it.

Btw, there are racist morons who voted remain, it gave me no end of pleasure voting against the sick f***s.
Most Europeans are white.
Racist morons hate blacks and Jews.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:07 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Vaccine Minister Nadhim Zahawi uses offshore tax havens to keep his ill gotten gains from the exchequer.
He is a Brexiter who wanted the UK to leave the EU so that he could keep avoiding tax.
Was he a leading light or remotely leading voice of the campaign ? NO
This is David Owen, remainer in the 1970's and 80's who quit Labour because it's manifesto commitment to leave the EEC, and co founded the SDP with Roy Jenkins.
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Listen to him and consider what he has to say.

Voices like his influenced me.

I started paying attention to politics around the time PMQs were first broadcast on TV. I've paid attention ever since.

Back in 1990, when he was still an MP, he was a good orator.
I watched the Maastricht debates, and I watched as John Major forced it upon us without it being in the manifesto and without a referendum.

I watched as Tony Blair forced the Amsterdam and Nice treaties through, without manifesto commitments and without referendums.

I watched as James Goldsmith's referendum party and Alan Sked's UK Independence Party appeared.
I watched when Alan Sked quit after falling out with Nigel (Farage).

I watched as Tony Blair proposed a European Union rapid reaction force, what the hell does a trading bloc need soldiers for ?

Sorry if this upsets anyone, BUT:

It is not racist to not want to be part of an empire.
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Old 7th February 2021, 07:53 PM   #360
Darat
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The Irish are livid with the EU over the vaccine fiasco in which Ursula von der Leyen was willing to impose a hard border on vaccines, even Sinn Fein, the former political wing of the IRA were scathing in their criticism of the EU.

Right now, all we have to do is be fair and let the EU keep shooting itself in the foot and Ireland will turn on the EU.

One of the big problems with the EU is it's penchant for authoritarianism.
Yes dear.
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