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Tags 9/11 conspiracy theories , apollo hoax , JFK assassination , moon landing hoax

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Old 16th February 2011, 05:30 PM   #1
Walter Ego
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Which Conspiracy Theories Do You Find LEAST Convincing?

My list in roughly descending order.

1. The Nazis didn't mass murder Jews with Zyklon B in concentration camps during WW2.

I listed this first because it's the most offensive.

2. 9/11 was an inside job.

(Interestingly the above two were conspiracies… by the Nazis and Osama bin Laden, et al, respectively. There is no convincing evidence whatsoever that the fingered culprits didn't do the dirty deeds.)

3. The Apollo moon landings were a hoax.

Again this defies credibility. Those radio astronomers in England, Australia and other places not in the U.S. or in U.S. controlled territories were listing to something that went to the moon and back. (The Russkies were listening in, too, would they have let us get away with such a massive hoax?)

4. JFK and MLK were not killed by "lone gunmen." There was a wider conspiracy in both cases.

I've lumped these two together because the evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald and James Earl Ray though largely circumstantial in both cases is convincing. (Oddly, there don't seem to be very many proliferating JFK assassination CTs. I wonder why?)

These four are the least convincing in my mind because we know the truth in each case and we have strong evidence for the "official" versions. The more diffuse NWO/ Illuminati/Masonic world domination CTs fail for other reasons. I could go on but you can add to the list.

Last edited by Walter Ego; 16th February 2011 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 16th February 2011, 05:37 PM   #2
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Well, since all these have been debunked up hill and down dale all over this forum, chewed up and spat out and the pieces stamped on and flushed down the toilet, what do you hope to discuss here?

Sounds like a statement of the bleedin' obvious, to be blunt about it.

Rolfe.
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Old 16th February 2011, 05:54 PM   #3
Walter Ego
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, since all these have been debunked up hill and down dale all over this forum, chewed up and spat out and the pieces stamped on and flushed down the toilet, what do you hope to discuss here?

Sounds like a statement of the bleedin' obvious, to be blunt about it.

Rolfe.
Which begs the question of why you're still hanging around here, doesn't it?

The fact that millions of people actually believe the CTs I listed and that the first two are morally offensive and are actually socially and politically dangerous and debilitating should indicate why they should be discussed.

Or must we search out the most fringe, nutty or obscure CTs before we can "hope" to discuss them?

Would you say it's more important to discuss the merits of chemtrails, fluoridation, etc., or nutball ideas with a few mostly mentally ill adherents than to discuss whether planned genocide happened in WW2 or the U.S. government murdered its own citizens on 9/11 and lied about the space program and covered up political assassinations?

Last edited by Walter Ego; 16th February 2011 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 16th February 2011, 06:10 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
Which begs the question of why you're still hanging around here, doesn't it?

Not really. I'm interested in the ones that are more convincing. And I like to be entertained. The Stundies is always a good read.

I just don't see the point of this thread.

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Last edited by Rolfe; 16th February 2011 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 16th February 2011, 06:17 PM   #5
Walter Ego
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Not really. I'm interested in the ones that are more convincing. And I like to be entertained. The Stundies is always a good read.

I just don't see the point of this thread.

Rolfe.
Please see my amended post above. I do agree the Holocaust denial is not "entertaining." I assume you're not suggesting it shouldn't be discussed.

Last edited by Walter Ego; 16th February 2011 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 16th February 2011, 06:21 PM   #6
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My problem with questions like this is I start to think of the ones that are so out there that they require actual mental illness. The David Ickle forum kind of stuff. Compared to those, the ones listed in the OP are downright rational.
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Old 16th February 2011, 06:21 PM   #7
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I find the HAARP ones to be particularly laughable.
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Old 16th February 2011, 06:47 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
The fact that millions of people actually believe the CTs I listed and that the first two are morally offensive and are actually socially and politically dangerous and debilitating should indicate why they should be discussed.

Or must we search out the most fringe, nutty or obscure CTs before we can "hope" to discuss them?

Would you say it's more important to discuss the merits of chemtrails, fluoridation, etc., or nutball ideas with a few mostly mentally ill adherents than to discuss whether planned genocide happened in WW2 or the U.S. government murdered its own citizens on 9/11 and lied about the space program and covered up political assassinations?

Replying to the part of your post that you added after I'd replied, where did I say these things should not be discussed? I merely pointed out that they were being discussed all over the forum, so starting a new thread to discuss them all over again seems a bit redundant.

There's a bias in this forum area in favour of debunking the ridiculous. No harm in that, whatever floats your boat. But there's certainly no shortage of it in this neck of the woods.

The thread you were mimicking has a more obvious utility, in that there's a bias against discussing the plausible conspiracy theories. If it isn't debunkable, a lot of people aren't interested. So talking about the ones that have or might have truth behind them is a valid point, I think.

Talking a heap lot more about what most of the forum is already saturated with, maybe not so much.

Rolfe.
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Old 16th February 2011, 06:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
Please see my amended post above. I do agree the Holocaust denial is not "entertaining." I assume you're not suggesting it shouldn't be discussed.

Would you try to read for comprehension?

Rolfe.
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Old 16th February 2011, 06:50 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
My problem with questions like this is I start to think of the ones that are so out there that they require actual mental illness. The David Ickle forum kind of stuff. Compared to those, the ones listed in the OP are downright rational.

What, the reptiles? Thetans as well, come to that.

You could go on all day. And you probably will. No shortage of batsqueak crazy CTs out there. All already discussed in excruciating depth already though.

Rolfe.
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Old 16th February 2011, 07:03 PM   #11
Walter Ego
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
My problem with questions like this is I start to think of the ones that are so out there that they require actual mental illness. The David Ickle forum kind of stuff. Compared to those, the ones listed in the OP are downright rational.
The OP was perhaps misstated. I probably should should have said what widely accepted CTs do you find the least convincing. (And don't make the mistake of underestimating the extent of Holocaust denial.)

I would say that the majority of Americans probably have bought into the JFK assassination theories which was why Oliver Stone was able to clean up at the box office. Mental illness was not an issue. (The college crowd I ran with thought you were mentally ill, of at best stupid, if you thought otherwise.)

I was really trying to single out the most popular and pernicious CTs.

Edit: If the consensus is that the only reason for this forum is to laugh at marginal and extreme kooks to demonstrate our superiority, and that we should discuss nothing of social or political importance, then so be it. Let this thread die a natural death.

Last edited by Walter Ego; 16th February 2011 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 16th February 2011, 07:16 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
Edit: If the consensus is that the only reason for this forum is to laugh at marginal and extreme kooks to demonstrate our superiority, and that we should discuss nothing of social or political importance, then so be it. Let this thread die a natural death.

Once again, do try to read for comprehension.

Just take a look around. Threads about things that are easy to debunk, and that includes holocaust denial and all sorts of genuinely serious matters as well as Icke and FOTL and "two moons", are seldom short of posters. The issues are well discussed. The threads grow fast and long.

Threads about things which are not easy to debunk, or maybe can't be debunked at all, languish. They fall off the bottom of the listings. They lack interest.

So, the thread about plausible CTs seemed to me to have a useful purpose. This one, not so much.

Rolfe.
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Old 16th February 2011, 11:37 PM   #13
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The idea that the Jews are capable of forging mountains of documents, making up a story about being exterminated, disseminating this story to all the Jews in the world without the non-Jews catching wind of it, using some Jedi mind trick to make Germans confess to trying to kill them all, fake millions of deaths, and keep the story going for seventy odd years. It just doesn't sound very plausible to me.
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Old 17th February 2011, 12:19 AM   #14
Walter Ego
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Once again, do try to read for comprehension.
This condensenion is not helping you. I understood you completely the first time.

Quote:
I'm interested in the ones that are more convincing. And I like to be entertained. The Stundies is always a good read.
You want this forum to be "fun." So you would prefer us to discuss "fun" topics, not downers like the Holocaust. Got ya. The "E" in JREF is for education, btw, but we should put that aside so as to provide you with entertainment. No need to explain further.
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Old 17th February 2011, 01:02 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
This condensenion is not helping you. I understood you completely the first time.



You want this forum to be "fun." So you would prefer us to discuss "fun" topics, not downers like the Holocaust. Got ya. The "E" in JREF is for education, btw, but we should put that aside so as to provide you with entertainment. No need to explain further.
If you understand completely, why misstate Rolfe's position?
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Old 17th February 2011, 01:19 AM   #16
Walter Ego
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
If you understand completely, why misstate Rolfe's position?
I didn't misstate it.

Quote:
I'm interested in the ones that are more convincing. And I like to be entertained.
Though we might quibble about which CTs are "more convincing," the important thing is that Rolfe should be entertained. I failed to do so.

But this is of no importance at this point because Rolfe is now on ignore as are you after I post this. I would suggest you both reciprocate in kind and get back to whatever you find entertaining.
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Old 17th February 2011, 01:32 AM   #17
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Freeman on the Land. Least convincing conspiracy theory ever. I can understand people who say "but you weren't there, so how can you REALLY know?" about the moon landings or JFK. I don't agree with that line of reasoning, but I can understand it. Then you get to FOTL. Anyone who believes it can put it to the test for themselves and find it doesn't work. AND THEY DO.
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Old 17th February 2011, 01:46 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
Freeman on the Land. Least convincing conspiracy theory ever. I can understand people who say "but you weren't there, so how can you REALLY know?" about the moon landings or JFK. I don't agree with that line of reasoning, but I can understand it. Then you get to FOTL. Anyone who believes it can put it to the test for themselves and find it doesn't work. AND THEY DO.
And when it fails, it's not because they were wrong, it's because they got the magic words in the wrong order, or forgot some other component of the spell.
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Old 17th February 2011, 02:01 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
I didn't misstate it.



Though we might quibble about which CTs are "more convincing," the important thing is that Rolfe should be entertained. I failed to do so.

But this is of no importance at this point because Rolfe is now on ignore as are you after I post this. I would suggest you both reciprocate in kind and get back to whatever you find entertaining.
You cherry picked one line and ignored the actual argument. Then ignored Rolfe, then ignored me. Thank you for your kind offer of reciprocity, but I prefer not to work from a position of ignore-ance.
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Old 17th February 2011, 02:31 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
The idea that the Jews are capable of forging mountains of documents, making up a story about being exterminated, disseminating this story to all the Jews in the world without the non-Jews catching wind of it, using some Jedi mind trick to make Germans confess to trying to kill them all, fake millions of deaths, and keep the story going for seventy odd years. It just doesn't sound very plausible to me.
No, but you could at least write an alternative-history novel about it -- not a good one or a plausible one, but one which would take place in an universe where physics and biology worked like they work in our own. Not so with people who claim that Elizabeth II, George W. Bush, and Boxcar Willie are shape-shifting reptilians from outer space.
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Old 17th February 2011, 03:01 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
I didn't misstate it.

Though we might quibble about which CTs are "more convincing," the important thing is that Rolfe should be entertained. I failed to do so.

But this is of no importance at this point because Rolfe is now on ignore as are you after I post this. I would suggest you both reciprocate in kind and get back to whatever you find entertaining.

Could I suggest again that you read for comprehension?

I'm interested in conspiracy theories that are more convincing. That is, ones that might really have happened. That's the main point I was trying to get across.

Then, being brutally honest, I admitted I sometimes read the threads on the batsqueak crazy nonsense, for entertainment. And I follow the Stundie threads, for much the same reason. Has that suddenly become a crime?

It seemed to me, when this thread first appeared as an obvious echo of the "which CTs are more convincing?" thread, that this was just one more attempt to get this forum back on track - that is, stop looking at stuff that might indicate real conspiracies happen, and return to the regular daily diet of shooting fish in a barrel.

So it's possible I was being unfair, and if that's so I apologise. However, to continually twist my professed interest in possibly-genuine conspiracy theories laced with occasional froth of looking at the FOTL and the Stundies to raise a smile, as "the important thing is that Rolfe should be entertained", is equally unfair.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th February 2011, 04:03 AM   #22
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Mod Warning Let's keep it civil and polite here, folks.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:jhunter1163
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Old 17th February 2011, 05:14 AM   #23
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Chemtrails has a lot of believers and I am at a total loss as to why.
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Old 17th February 2011, 05:22 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Dogzilla View Post
The idea that the Jews are capable of forging mountains of documents, making up a story about being exterminated, disseminating this story to all the Jews in the world without the non-Jews catching wind of it, using some Jedi mind trick to make Germans confess to trying to kill them all, fake millions of deaths, and keep the story going for seventy odd years. It just doesn't sound very plausible to me.
I don't get the joke.

This is exactly what you argue for in other threads.

Are you suffering from multiple personality disorder?
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Old 17th February 2011, 05:59 AM   #25
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1) Reptilians & the ever expanding Ickian space opera fantasy

2) Alien abduction - why highly technologically advanced space faring aliens would want to shove probes into the back passages of moonshine addled hillbillies is beyond me. Surely they'd just access data from a medical school?

3) Elizabeth 11 is the world biggest narcotics trafficer according to the gospel of 'Lyndon Larouche'

4) Freemen on the Land - They say the law was subverted but go very quiet when put to proof as to who did. Their legal theories are laughable.

5) 9/11 - I watched it live on TV. Anyone who attempts to tell I didn't see what I saw is a blithering idiot.

6) 'Holohoax' - just insane. There is so much evidence to prove it happened.
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Old 17th February 2011, 06:19 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Chemtrails has a lot of believers and I am at a total loss as to why.
Yes, I was thinking of something along those lines. In fact, I can't even think of a reason for chemtrails at all.

The trouble is that some conspiracy theories seem to be "gateway" theories. They seem fairly plausible enough and only require just a little bending of the normal rules of evidence and just a slight suspension of skepticism but over time this method of looking at the world spreads to other areas and you find yourself believing any old bollocks. If someone questions you about it all you need to say is "How do you know it's not true?" Once you become a hardened advocate of dispensing with any burden of proof then why not chemtrails, HAARP as earthquake machine, the queen of England is the world's biggest drug dealer and she's a reptilian relation of Barack Obama, the Islamic-Zionist-Bolshevik who was hatched in Kenya.

As for the ones Walter started with, I think 9/11 as inside job and Holocaust denial are astoundingly unconvincing but questioning whether JFK and MLK were killed by lone gunman are hardly in the same whackaloon ballpark. I think plenty of people abstractly believe there was a conspiracy but simply haven't looked in to each case very thoroughly.

(Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Gerald Posner believe that MLK had been killed in some kind of low-level conspiracy?)
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Old 17th February 2011, 08:48 AM   #27
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Chemtrails. Totally East Ham.

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Old 17th February 2011, 09:45 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
The OP was perhaps misstated. I probably should should have said what widely accepted CTs do you find the least convincing. (And don't make the mistake of underestimating the extent of Holocaust denial.)
Fair enough. Not the reptilians then because they're not accepted enough, and not JFK because while it's unfounded it's also plausible when compared to some of the others. Hmm. I think I would have to go for the ones that would require a huge number of people to be involved for little payoff. That means Chemtrails doesn't quite make the cut. Freemen arguably could, but I don't really think of that as a conspiracy theory for some reason.

In no particular order:

Moon Landing is a Hoax
9/11 Truth Thing (specifically the idea that the planes weren't what caused the buildings to collapse)
Holocaust Didn't Happen
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Old 17th February 2011, 11:03 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Chemtrails. Totally East Ham.

Dave
Bloody Northerners, don't know their London geography. The version I knew when living in Manor Park is 'totally Dagenham Heathway', which is three stops past, whereas East Ham is one stop short of Barking.
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Old 17th February 2011, 01:07 PM   #30
Walter Ego
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't get the joke.

This is exactly what you argue for in other threads.

Are you suffering from multiple personality disorder?
More likely Dogzilla is suffering from Waldheimer's syndrome.

What did you do during the war, daddy?
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Old 17th February 2011, 01:08 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
My list in roughly descending order.

1. The Nazis didn't mass murder Jews with Zyklon B in concentration camps during WW2.

I listed this first because it's the most offensive.

2. 9/11 was an inside job.

(Interestingly the above two were conspiracies… by the Nazis and Osama bin Laden, et al, respectively. There is no convincing evidence whatsoever that the fingered culprits didn't do the dirty deeds.)

3. The Apollo moon landings were a hoax.

Again this defies credibility. Those radio astronomers in England, Australia and other places not in the U.S. or in U.S. controlled territories were listing to something that went to the moon and back. (The Russkies were listening in, too, would they have let us get away with such a massive hoax?)

4. JFK and MLK were not killed by "lone gunmen." There was a wider conspiracy in both cases.

I've lumped these two together because the evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald and James Earl Ray though largely circumstantial in both cases is convincing. (Oddly, there don't seem to be very many proliferating JFK assassination CTs. I wonder why?)

These four are the least convincing in my mind because we know the truth in each case and we have strong evidence for the "official" versions. The more diffuse NWO/ Illuminati/Masonic world domination CTs fail for other reasons. I could go on but you can add to the list.
Agree with the first three, but disagree..to a point...on #4.
The Kennedy/King Assaiantion theories are crap, but I would not put them right after the first 3 on the least convincing list. There are quite a few wackjob theories out there that are even more insane. The Davic Icke Repatilians are secretly ruling the world theory for one.
And the whole UFO/Area 51 stuff is also a lot crazier.
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Old 17th February 2011, 02:37 PM   #32
ryanebelhar
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The FBI and the Philadelphia police department teamed up to frame a cab driver for murder just so they could eventually execute him, which 30 years later they still haven't done
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Old 17th February 2011, 02:44 PM   #33
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Chemtrails. Totally Catford dogs.
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Old 17th February 2011, 02:45 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
Freeman on the Land. Least convincing conspiracy theory ever. I can understand people who say "but you weren't there, so how can you REALLY know?" about the moon landings or JFK. I don't agree with that line of reasoning, but I can understand it. Then you get to FOTL. Anyone who believes it can put it to the test for themselves and find it doesn't work. AND THEY DO.
I agree - for me it is the sheer scale of the conspiracy that has me gasping.

When you get down to it FOTL requires a conspiracy that encompasses every official in the justice system (of more than one country), every college and university that teaches law, every police officer, traffic warden, council official and probably every lollipop-man/woman. In fact it is probably quicker to say who isn't involved. It makes me wonder who this conspiracy is aimed at?
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Old 17th February 2011, 03:49 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
When you get down to it FOTL requires a conspiracy that encompasses every official in the justice system (of more than one country), every college and university that teaches law, every police officer, traffic warden, council official and probably every lollipop-man/woman. In fact it is probably quicker to say who isn't involved. It makes me wonder who this conspiracy is aimed at?
NWO conspiracism is nearly as large. Virtually every elected official above county dog-catcher has to be compromised to some extent.
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Old 17th February 2011, 03:52 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I agree - for me it is the sheer scale of the conspiracy that has me gasping.

When you get down to it FOTL requires a conspiracy that encompasses every official in the justice system (of more than one country), every college and university that teaches law, every police officer, traffic warden, council official and probably every lollipop-man/woman. In fact it is probably quicker to say who isn't involved. It makes me wonder who this conspiracy is aimed at?
In terms of "Holy living (bleep), how can anyone actually believe this (bleep)?" potential, I think FOTL ties with the whackier 9/11 versions, like the no-planers and the miniature nukes, but both "theories" have that potential for different reasons.
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Old 17th February 2011, 03:55 PM   #37
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I was thinking about the Big Pharma conspiracy, where medicine is believed to be either deliberately concealing effective permanent cures for certain diseases in order to go on selling palliative treatments, or actually making people sick in order to profit from them.

But although it's nutty and irrational, it's not really in the same league as some of the above.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th February 2011, 04:03 PM   #38
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Reptoid aliens. People who believe in them are just sick nutters.

Excuse me - a kitten just walked in (dislocates jaw to eat it whole)...
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Old 17th February 2011, 04:11 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I was thinking about the Big Pharma conspiracy, where medicine is believed to be either deliberately concealing effective permanent cures for certain diseases in order to go on selling palliative treatments, or actually making people sick in order to profit from them.

But although it's nutty and irrational, it's not really in the same league as some of the above.

Rolfe.
"AIDS was made in a lab to destroy the African/gay population" is a fairly commonly believed conspiracy theory.

Frank Zappa seemed to go in for some type of theory along those lines. Here he is displaying his ignorance knowledge about genetics, likening AIDS (I think) to a man-made version of sickle-cell anemia or Tay Sachs. Unfortunately, Zappa doesn't seem to know that there is nothing about sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs which "target" the populations in which it is most pravalent in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_XDxbJvfyM

There are endless variations on this theme. Some anti-vaxxers not only believe vaccines cause autism but that that is part of their secret plan. I asked an anti-vaxxer friend of mine what the point would be and he became irritated at the question answering something along the lines of, "The pharmeceutical companies move in mysterious ways..." bolstering Karl Popper's assertion that the conspiracy theory explanation of society is, "We no longer believe in God. So who or what is in his place?"
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Old 17th February 2011, 04:48 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ryanebelhar View Post
The FBI and the Philadelphia police department teamed up to frame a cab driver for murder just so they could eventually execute him, which 30 years later they still haven't done
I agree that the Mumia was framed routine is stupid, and I am amazed that otherwise intelligent people buy into it,but once again, it's just stupid,not nearly as batcrap crazy as a lot of the stuff out there.
What is upsetting is for many people the innocence of Mumia is not even a topic for discussion, but taken for granted.
If you want to argue that Mumia should not get the death penalty because the Death Penalty is wrong, fine, I can accept that although I don't agree. But to calim the Mumia was innocence in the face of all the evidence to the contrary is really stupid.
And I don't think anybody can do that good a job of framing.

Last edited by dudalb; 17th February 2011 at 04:51 PM.
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