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Tags 2020 elections , Biden administration , Biden controversies , joe biden , Kamala Harris

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Old 21st September 2021, 12:45 PM   #2161
Warp12
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Aaash Israel. The gift that keeps on giving. We should have never recognized it as a State.
Noted.
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:49 PM   #2162
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
There is a lot of debate about how big a Muslim population was ever in Spain.
There is evidence that most people in Muslim controlled Spain remained Christian. They had to pay a special tax but otherwise were pretty much left alone. Same situation as occured in Ottoman occupied Eastern Europe later.
And to makes matters more fun, one reason why the Reconquista took so long was that the Christians fough among themselves constantly, and some Christian nobles had no hesistation about adapting Muslim allies against their Christian enemies. Of course,things were no better on the Muslim side.their nobles fought among themselves constantly also.
El Cid spent most of his career fighting as a Mercenary for Muslims against other Muslims. SOmething that the movie had happening off screen.
Great movie, questinable history.
All true. As a 'People of the Book', Muslims were historically very tolerant of Christians and Jews unlike the Christians. I used to show El Cid to my 8th grade Spanish students. They always loved it.
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:59 PM   #2163
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You moved the goalpost. That wasn't actually what you asked. You asked,

Quote:
I've yet to see a Muslim country colonized by a non-Muslim country and turned into a stable democracy. Can you name one?
You didn't say it had to remain a Muslim country. That's a new condition which wasn't part of your original question. That condition may be relevant to what can be done in Afghanistan today, but you still didn't ask about that in your original question.
Oh, dear. You fail to take into consideration my previous post which indicates that I was, indeed, talking about a Muslim country that remains a Muslim country. Context, Zig, context:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We shouldn't have gone in in the first place. Our mission was to get Bin Laden. We got him and should have left then. NO COUNTRY that has EVER invaded Afghanistan was successful in changing a damn thing other than to organize them to fight against the common enemy. Once that's done, they resumed their way of life they've had for centuries: fighting among themselves.

You seem to have an idea that we could build a democratic nation from a place that was never a democratic nation and whose centuries old customs and beliefs diametrically opposed such a concept.
But nice try at spinning it.

ETA: in addition, if it didn't remain a Muslim country, then it wouldn't be an example of a Muslim country being turned into a stable democracy.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 21st September 2021 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:00 PM   #2164
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
We certainly could do such a thing. We just aren't allowed to do what's needed for such a transformation, anymore.
Kill everyone that didn't agree?
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:02 PM   #2165
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What nations did the US colonize? I missed where the US became a colonial power.
Hawaii, Texas, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Philippines.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:03 PM   #2166
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think you can say that the United States colonized Cuba or the PI. We occupied them after the Spanish American war. But colonized them?
What is your distinction?
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:04 PM   #2167
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They'd be wrong. Israel was never a Muslim country. It has been officially a Jewish State since its creation. Therefore, it does not qualify as a MUSLIM country in which a colonizer successfully created a democratic government.
This is arguable. It's technically correct. "Israel has been a Jewish state since its conception." The land that it occupies, Palestine was not Jewish.

It's also arguable that it is successful since it relies on money and weapons from the US.
And it's also arguable that it is a democracy. Of course it's arguable the US is.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 21st September 2021 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:05 PM   #2168
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think you can say that the United States colonized Cuba or the PI. We occupied them after the Spanish American war. But colonized them?
So which British colonies were true colonies and where colonized and which ones were just occupied? Was India ever really a colony?
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:06 PM   #2169
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It has everything to do with your statement implying that the is US not capable of colonizing a Muslim nation, and converting it to Democracy. As though, somehow a Muslim nation could not be colonized. Easily, easily, could be done...just not with the current climate which frowns upon such excessive force. Which I stated.
It would end up with the same result.

I am from Britain, we know all about pulling out of colonies we tried to 'civilise', we went in to Afghanistan twice on our own and again with the USA this time.

I worked with a man that was the last marine off the dockside in Aden, they ran for the ship with a mob chasing them while the ship gave covering fire. It left the harbour with bullets pinging off the hull.

USA could never have turned Afghanistan in to a model of democracy.
You would have been forced out eventually.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:10 PM   #2170
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Or kill an appropriate number of them. "Occupy" would not be the goal, if we were serious.

Completely OT, at this point. I stick by my statements.
All the European Empires tried killing lots of the natives, they were all forced out in the end.

How much of a population do you think you would have to kill to make them compliant?
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:14 PM   #2171
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Aaash Israel. The gift that keeps on giving. We should have never recognized it as a State.
Well, a bit too late to go back to 1947 now.
And I have to disagree with you.
I am not a big fan of how the "Progressives" have gone from legtimate criticism of some of Israel's policies, to an "destroy the Zionist Entity" view. Count me strongly out. ANothe reason I am not a "Prog."
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:14 PM   #2172
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Spain.
That is an example of a Christian Nation colonised by Muslims.

Those occupiers were driven out though.

Not the best example to choose.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:15 PM   #2173
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is your distinction?
Good question.

I see Cuba as a Spanish Colony as I see the US, Canada, Australia as a British colonies. That the citizens of those colonies ancestry is mostly a mixture of citizens of their Colonial parents and the indigenous natives. But this is really semantics. Technically I'm wrong as the technical definition is that you grew crops.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 21st September 2021 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:16 PM   #2174
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But you don't get to write the "story".

800 years spent in my country trying to throw off the yoke of the British. 800 years.

That fervour never ceased for 800 years until we won. and the Great British Empire had to back down.

The only way your ideas would work is if you took all the natives and wiped them out. All of them. And it seems to be what you are advocating.
Isn't that what the USA did with it's own indigenous people though?
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:18 PM   #2175
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
There is a lot of debate about how big a Muslim population was ever in Spain.
There is evidence that most people in Muslim controlled Spain remained Christian. They had to pay a special tax but otherwise were pretty much left alone. Same situation as occured in Ottoman occupied Eastern Europe later.
And to makes matters more fun, one reason why the Reconquista took so long was that the Christians fough among themselves constantly, and some Christian nobles had no hesistation about adapting Muslim allies against their Christian enemies. Of course,things were no better on the Muslim side.their nobles fought among themselves constantly also.
El Cid spent most of his career fighting as a Mercenary for Muslims against other Muslims. SOmething that the movie had happening off screen.
Great movie, questinable history.
Pretty much like Afghanistan then.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:21 PM   #2176
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is arguable. It's technically correct. "Israel has beeb a Jewish state since its conception." The land that it occupies, Palestine was not Jewish.

It's also arguable that it is successful since it relies on money and weapons from the US.
And it's also arguable that it is a democracy. Of course it's arguable the US is.
But who ran the government; the Jews or the Muslims?
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:23 PM   #2177
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, a bit too late to go back to 1947 now.
And I have to disagree with you.
I am not a big fan of how the "Progressives" have gone from legtimate criticism of some of Israel's policies, to an "destroy the Zionist Entity" view. Count me strongly out. ANothe reason I am not a "Prog."
Yes, it is too late. I'm not in favor of "destroying the Zionist Entity" either.

Let's just say that the 1947 decision has been a disaster ever since it was made. It has been followed by one foreign policy debacle after another. This is all about religion. It's about stupid Muslims fighting stupid Jews who are aided by stupid Christians helping Israel to bring about Armageddon.

Christopher Hitchens was right. Religion poisons everything.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 21st September 2021 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:26 PM   #2178
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They were when our troops were there except mostly in Kabul or another big city we were in. Once you got out of an area we had a big presence it, like rural areas, they lived exactly as they have done for centuries with women being totally controlled by men and married off for family benefit. That is part of the culture there.


Democracy has never ruled in Afghanistan. It's always been ruled by tribal leaders.


There are virtually no other religions than Islam in Afghanistan. The very, very few that were there, about 1% of the popuation, left when the Taliban took over pre-US invasion.


They already were doing that going back centuries. Sunnis overwhelmingly make up the population and the always discriminated against the Shi'a Hazars.


Never existed in Afghanistan even before the Taliban.
There is truth in what you say. I guess my point is, I see nothing to go "Hooray!" over. The whole situation is depressing, actually.


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Quite possible. But the alternative was staying in Afghanistan for what? Another 20, 30, 40 years?
good point, but I just hope it is not going to be a situation where every 20 to 4o years, we have to go back to Afghanistan, go after Al Qaeda, leave when we defeat them, they again grow back because of the Taliban, and we repeat and repeat and repeat.


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We shouldn't have gone in in the first place. Our mission was to get Bin Laden. We got him and should have left then.
Well, seeing as we thought Bin Laden was in Afghanistan, what would you have suggested? Sounds to me that if we wanted to get him and Al Qaeda, we had to go to Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
NO COUNTRY that has EVER invaded Afghanistan was successful in changing a damn thing other than to organize them to fight against the common enemy. Once that's done, they resumed their way of life they've had for centuries: fighting among themselves.
True.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You seem to have an idea that we could build a democratic nation from a place that was never a democratic nation and whose centuries old customs and beliefs diametrically opposed such a concept.
You are probably right. Maybe we should have left after getting Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. I don't know. I do know I want Al Qaeda gone and Afghanistan in a situation where it wouldn't we grow back.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:31 PM   #2179
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They warned them FOURTEEN TIMES TO GET THE HELL OUT AND WHY. What else do you suggest? Tell them 15, 16, 17 times because that's going to light a candle under their butts?
I only suggest that if they had known the truth about how quickly the Taliban would take over, they might have changed their minds.


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Many had family there. They were dual citizens or had green cards. They didn't want to leave their families. Or, like one woman, had spent years building an animal sanctuary and didn't want to leave her life's work. They all had different reason. But to lay THEIR decisions at the feet of the government is ludicrous.
Good point.


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The culture/mentality of Afghans did not lend itself to a democracy. It's as foreign to them as an absolute monarchy is to us.
True.


Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Don't you think Biden tried? He'd already gotten an extension once. The Taliban wanted us out and they would have started attacking our troops again.
You very well might be right and that there was no way for Biden to get more time.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:36 PM   #2180
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes, it has. I think there are very legitimate things that politicians should be criticized about and others that are in fact unreasonable.
I agree.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not convinced either way about this.

fair enough.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's not perfect by any means. But I also don't believe it is America's responsibility to police the world. The United States are allies of dozens of countries that repress women and people that are not Muslim. We don't occupy their countries and waste trillions of dollars there. Why should Afghanistan be any different?
Good points.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There are also dozens of countries where Al Qaeda members are present besides Afghanistan.
maybe, but I think you will agree that before we invaded after 911, Afghanistan was the main base of operations and HQ of Al Qaeda. I hope it doesn't return to that.
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Old 21st September 2021, 01:59 PM   #2181
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes, it is too late. I'm not in favor of "destroying the Zionist Entity" either.

Let's just say that the 1947 decision has been a disaster ever since it was made. It has been followed by one foreign policy debacle after another. This is all about religion. It's about stupid Muslims fighting stupid Jews who are aided by stupid Christians helping Israel to bring about Armageddon.

Christopher Hitchens was right. Religion poisons everything.
I wrote my dissertation on the Israel-Palestine conflict. Religion is just the window dressing, not for once the cause..
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Old 21st September 2021, 02:09 PM   #2182
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Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
maybe, but I think you will agree that before we invaded after 911, Afghanistan was the main base of operations and HQ of Al Qaeda. I hope it doesn't return to that.
I'm not sure that it was. However let's say that was. That was two decades ago when Al Qaeda was very different than it is today. It was loosely run by Osama bin Laden who was driven out of Afghanistan almost twenty years ago and operated out of Pakistan. And is dead now.

It also should be noted that not a single terrorist hijacker on 9-11 was from Afghanistan. They were almost all from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Yemen. Many lived and trained in the United States.

It just seems to me that occupying Kabul and Kandahar does little to prevent terrorism since there are lots of places these people can and do set up shop.

I also want to compliment you. You're thoughtful and reasonable. It's refreshing to have an intelligent discussion that doesn't involve obstinacy.
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Old 21st September 2021, 02:14 PM   #2183
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I wrote my dissertation on the Israel-Palestine conflict. Religion is just the window dressing, not for once the cause..
I'd love to read it. But at the moment. I don't necessarily agree with that conclusion. I believe it is what it is always about...money and power. But religion is the framework and how the state actions are sold.
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Old 21st September 2021, 02:19 PM   #2184
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Let's move this discussion to the dedicated Israel Palestine thread before the mods do it for us.....
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Old 21st September 2021, 02:25 PM   #2185
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I wrote my dissertation on the Israel-Palestine conflict. Religion is just the window dressing, not for once the cause..
Once, when asked what the role of religious Jews would be in his projected Jewish nation state, Herzl rather chillingly replied "We shall know how to keep them in their synagogues". And he said it in German, so it probably sounded even more chilling.
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Old 21st September 2021, 02:52 PM   #2186
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure that it was. However let's say that was. That was two decades ago when Al Qaeda was very different than it is today.
Well, I was around two decades ago and if you asked anyone back then, they would have said they thought Al Qaeda HQ was in Afghanistan. Pretty sure that is what the CIA and other intelligence services thought as well.


Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It was loosely run by Osama bin Laden who was driven out of Afghanistan almost twenty years ago and operated out of Pakistan. And is dead now.
do we know for certain when Bin Laden left Afghanistan. Maybe it had something to do with the US forces coming into Afghanistan?

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It also should be noted that not a single terrorist hijacker on 9-11 was from Afghanistan. They were almost all from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Yemen. Many lived and trained in the United States.
True, but the people that planned, and ordered the attack were in Afghanistan. Certainly, their leader was, until he left for Pakistan.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It just seems to me that occupying Kabul and Kandahar does little to prevent terrorism since there are lots of places these people can and do set up shop.
Maybe, but Al Qaeda isn't anything like it was before we got to Afghanistan. I hope it doesn't grow back.


Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I also want to compliment you. You're thoughtful and reasonable. It's refreshing to have an intelligent discussion that doesn't involve obstinacy.
thanks!

Thanks also for debating me with evidence, facts, and logic and not going the personal attack route. It seems to many these days like to go down the path of Ad Hominem. I have been the victim of that on many other forums.
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Old 21st September 2021, 03:00 PM   #2187
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SOrry I ever brough the Iron Dome topic up. I wanted to show a very minor issue is bringing the US to the edge of economic Catastrophe, but I should have seen it would become another Israeli/Palestinian dust up.
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Old 21st September 2021, 03:37 PM   #2188
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Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
do we know for certain when Bin Laden left Afghanistan. Maybe it had something to do with the US forces coming into Afghanistan?
It absolutely did.

Quote:
According to one of his wives, bin Laden was reunited with his family for first time after the 9/11 attacks in the second half of 2002 in Peshawar, the capital city of the Tribal Areas, where they lived for five months in another safe house.[7] After this, in September 2002, bin Laden took his family into the rural mountain areas of northwest Pakistan (and very notably, not in the tribal belt where main US attention was focused.) First they stayed in the Shangla district in the Swat valley, where they stayed in two safe houses for eight to nine months. In May 2003, bin Laden and his family moved to Haripur, a small town close to Islamabad, where they stayed in a rented house for two years. In June 2005, bin Laden and his family moved to Abbottabad.
Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
True, but the people that planned, and ordered the attack were in Afghanistan. Certainly, their leader was, until he left for Pakistan.
Yes,

Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
Maybe, but Al Qaeda isn't anything like it was before we got to Afghanistan. I hope it doesn't grow back.
Me too, but I think terrorists can and do set up their HQ in pretty much any nation.
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Old 21st September 2021, 03:49 PM   #2189
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Well, we will just have to see what happens with Al Qaeda in the future.
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Old 21st September 2021, 04:11 PM   #2190
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure that it was. However let's say that was. That was two decades ago when Al Qaeda was very different than it is today. It was loosely run by Osama bin Laden who was driven out of Afghanistan almost twenty years ago and operated out of Pakistan. And is dead now.

It also should be noted that not a single terrorist hijacker on 9-11 was from Afghanistan. They were almost all from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Yemen. Many lived and trained in the United States.

It just seems to me that occupying Kabul and Kandahar does little to prevent terrorism since there are lots of places these people can and do set up shop.

I also want to compliment you. You're thoughtful and reasonable. It's refreshing to have an intelligent discussion that doesn't involve obstinacy.
I'll second that!
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Old 21st September 2021, 05:09 PM   #2191
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Old 21st September 2021, 07:53 PM   #2192
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The only way your ideas would work is if you took all the natives and wiped them out. All of them.
That's not accurate. Historically, it's quite common for people who survive an invasion to adopt much or all of the invaders' culture. France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Romania are full of descendants of non-Romans who speak modern versions of Latin and participate in a modern version of the Romans' religion (imposed on even the Romans by a past Emperor). Britain & Ireland are full of descendants of Celts who speak English (and have fought over which version of the Romans' religion they should follow). Africa has numerous communities that aren't descended from the Bantu but speak Bantu languages after getting overrun in the Bantu Expansion. Iran still speaks its own language but writes it in a past invader's alphabet and follows that same invader's religion. China was originally at least a half-dozen different major entities which became one only by conquest a few millennia ago. Prehistorically, when farming cultures have invaded areas previously populated by hunters & gatherers, the population afterward sometimes remains genetically the same afterward but always ends up as farmers. Afghanistan is another example; the dominant religion and most common languages were brought in by Iran and have stuck since then even though Iran is out now. I'm sure there are examples that don't work like this (and Afghanistan is an example on that side too, since they don't retain the cultural fingerprints of their other past conquerors like the Mongolians or the Greeks or the Yuezhi). The point is that there isn't a reliable law of nature pointing us one way or the other on this. It's a variable determined by other variables.

Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
We would have to conquer a city in Afganistan, and bring in a great number of Americans to settle.
A big challenge with that is the fact that past colonies have been founded in places where people wanted to settle, and Afghanistan, like most of the rest of Muslim lands, is on some of the world's most horribly bleak worthless miserable wasteland.

(BTW on American colonialism: one could consider the western states colonies of the eastern ones.)
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Old 22nd September 2021, 01:09 AM   #2193
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Oh, man. Wow. We've got a new -gate, and it's a doozy.

Fox News slams Biden for riding a bicycle: 'Just compare it to President Donald Trump'

Bicyclegate!
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Old 22nd September 2021, 03:44 AM   #2194
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Oh, man. Wow. We've got a new -gate, and it's a doozy.

Fox News slams Biden for riding a bicycle: 'Just compare it to President Donald Trump'

Bicyclegate!
So he doesn't have the physical stamina to be president, but he can do something that has physical intensity of riding a bike for exercise...

That's logic.

Also, can people cool it with playing doctors on TV? You're not qualified to say if someone is in declining physical/mental health by reading articles or watching things from a distance. Knock it off.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 06:59 AM   #2195
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Biden getting a lot of use out of Trump's pretextual anti-covid measure to deny asylum seekers their rights under international law.

Quote:
Pres. Biden is using Title 42 to expel asylum seekers without their right to hearings.

Ex-Pres. Trump invoked Title 42 citing #COVID19, but health experts say it has no medical basis. Per
@CNBC
, it was used to expel:

▪️ 440,000+ people under Trump
▪️ 690,000+ people under Biden
https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1440337774628917249
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Old 22nd September 2021, 07:07 AM   #2196
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Biden getting a lot of use out of Trump's pretextual anti-covid measure to deny asylum seekers their rights under international law.



https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1440337774628917249
Yeah, no defense of the Biden Admin on that for me, at this point. The main justification that likely could be offered in the first place would be the backlog and sabotage of the relevant government departments needed to process the load, but that defense is not an indefinite one.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 10:02 AM   #2197
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Biden getting a lot of use out of Trump's pretextual anti-covid measure to deny asylum seekers their rights under international law.



https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1440337774628917249
Whatever happened to "build bridges, not walls"? The majority of those being expelled are brown people.

I'm sure that most of the posters on ISF are now of the opinion that Biden is a racist. Right?
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Old 22nd September 2021, 10:06 AM   #2198
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Whatever happened to "build bridges, not walls"? The majority of those being expelled are brown people.

I'm sure that most of the posters on ISF are now of the opinion that Biden is a racist. Right?
I am sorry. But you seem to live in some odd world where absolute conformation and loyalty to someone is considered to be the norm
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Old 22nd September 2021, 10:55 AM   #2199
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Meanwhile, we are hanging on the edge of economic catastrophe.
And no, This is not hypebole. If the US defaults, it is going to be much much worse then the previous government shutdowns.
And, make no mistake, Biden and the Dems will get the blame. They might not deserve it,...I think both parties will be guilty, but anybody who thinks that the GOP will get the blame is living another reality
IMHO, the Progressive wing of the Democrats are irresponsible in their refusal to cmpromise with the centrists wing. They have become just like the Tea Party in the GOP...a bunch of ideologues who demand ideoloival purity above all else.
I know the Progs here will blast me, but that is to be expected. People wearing blinders never see they are wearin them.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 10:58 AM   #2200
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Meanwhile, we are hanging on the edge of economic catastrophe.
And no, This is not hypebole. If the US defaults, it is going to be much much worse then the previous government shutdowns.
And, make no mistake, Biden and the Dems will get the blame. They might not deserve it,...I think both parties will be guilty, but anybody who thinks that the GOP will get the blame is living another reality
IMHO, the Progressive wing of the Democrats are irresponsible in their refusal to cmpromise with the centrists wing. They have become just like the Tea Party in the GOP...a bunch of ideologues who demand ideoloival purity above all else.
I know the Progs here will blast me, but that is to be expected. People wearing blinders never see they are wearin them.
Why is the progressive wing responsible? They're the ones insisting on passing Biden's agenda.

There is absolutely a minority caucus that is endangering the political agenda of the Democratic party, but it's not the progressives. It's the handful of "moderates" that are deliberately undermining the agenda set out by Biden and the D Congress.

The 3.5 trillion bill is Joe Biden's idea. Progressives are backing him, and have support of all but a handful of holdouts. The austerity "centrists" are the holdouts here, not the progressives.

We should be asking why a handful of supposed Democratic congress members are using the Republican obstructionist tactics rather than toeing the party line.

ETA: "Build Back Better" is Biden's centerpiece domestic agenda item for Christ's sake. The moderates are trying to poison the party's electoral chances with pointless austerity.
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