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Tags 2020 elections , Biden administration , Biden controversies , joe biden , Kamala Harris

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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:35 AM   #2201
dudalb
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why is the progressive wing responsible? They're the ones insisting on passing Biden's agenda.

There is absolutely a minority caucus that is endangering the political agenda of the Democratic party, but it's not the progressives. It's the handful of "moderates" that are deliberately undermining the agenda set out by Biden and the D Congress.

The 3.5 trillion bill is Joe Biden's idea. Progressives are backing him, and have support of all but a handful of holdouts. The austerity "centrists" are the holdouts here, not the progressives.

We should be asking why a handful of supposed Democratic congress members are using the Republican obstructionist tactics rather than toeing the party line.

ETA: "Build Back Better" is Biden's centerpiece domestic agenda item for Christ's sake. The moderates are trying to poison the party's electoral chances with pointless austerity.
We don't need no dirty centrists ,in other words.
SOmeday you are going to realize you are far to the left of most political opinion in America.
We centrist are not going to vanish, as much are you would like that to happen, comrade.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:38 AM   #2202
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
We don't need no dirty centrists ,in other words.
SOmeday you are going to realize you are far to the left of most political opinion in America.
We centrist are not going to vanish, as much are you would like that to happen, comrade.
The vast majority of centrists have already agreed to the 3.5 trillion. It never would have gotten this far if only the progressives supported that number. It's 9 stubborn members, out of over 200, that are holding it up.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:42 AM   #2203
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Then you decouple the debt ceiling raise from the infrastructure bill. I don't think you get how bad a default is going to be.
of course, in your case, maybe you think it will cause the final collapse of the Capitilaist system and would there fore be a good thing.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:51 AM   #2204
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Then you decouple the debt ceiling raise from the infrastructure bill. I don't think you get how bad a default is going to be.
of course, in your case, maybe you think it will cause the final collapse of the Capitilaist system and would there fore be a good thing.
Damn, you must be really mad at those 9 moderates that are playing so cavalierly with all of our collective economic security.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 12:08 PM   #2205
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Isn't that what the USA did with it's own indigenous people though?
The technological disparity prevented indigenous peoples from mounting an effective opposition.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 12:18 PM   #2206
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The technological disparity prevented indigenous peoples from mounting an effective opposition.
And plague killing 90% was kind of an important factor as well. I mean imagine if they village the Mayflower settled at was still inhabited instead of wiped out by disease. No thanksgiving for us.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 01:38 PM   #2207
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The technological disparity prevented indigenous peoples from mounting an effective opposition.
That is what happened in almost all the Colonial wars;the indigenous people could score the occasional win (Little Big Horn, Isandlhwanda)but in the end the Colonial powers superiort tech won.
It was not just a case of having weapons, but of being able to support the weapons.
Native Americans has many guns.some of them as good as what the US Army had in the Plains war, but the Native Americans could never get enough ammo for them.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 03:00 PM   #2208
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
We don't need no dirty centrists ,in other words.
SOmeday you are going to realize you are far to the left of most political opinion in America.
We centrist are not going to vanish, as much are you would like that to happen, comrade.
Are you positioning yourself with Manchin and Sinema? They are the ones ST is talking about.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 03:10 PM   #2209
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Originally Posted by heymatto70 View Post
So he doesn't have the physical stamina to be president, but he can do something that has physical intensity of riding a bike for exercise...

That's logic.

Also, can people cool it with playing doctors on TV? You're not qualified to say if someone is in declining physical/mental health by reading articles or watching things from a distance. Knock it off.

No, in fact you just did.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:18 PM   #2210
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
... maybe you think it will cause the final collapse of the Capitilaist system and would there fore be a good thing.
The collapse of the Capitalist system is an inherent result of the unsustainability of the system.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:51 PM   #2211
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
We don't need no dirty centrists ,in other words.
SOmeday you are going to realize you are far to the left of most political opinion in America.
We centrist are not going to vanish, as much are you would like that to happen, comrade.
To their credit, the vast majority of Democrats support the $3.5 trillion bill, so there is no way you can say it is some kind of leftist bill. Unless you are so far to the right of the Dems that you see even neoliberals like Biden as progressive.

Right now you "centrists" are doing nothing but stonewalling necessary actions that the country and the planet desperately need.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:54 PM   #2212
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
The collapse of the Capitalist system is an inherent result of the unsustainability of the system.
Yep, it is inevitable without social welfare policies to prop it up. And even then, it's a band-aid on a gaping wound.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:04 AM   #2213
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Biden admin is seeking contractor to run migrant prison camp on Gitmo.


Quote:
DHS seeks contractor to run migrant detention facility at Gitmo, guards who speak Haitian Creole
DHS told NBC News it is not sending "and will not send Haitian nationals being encountered at the southwest border" to the Guantanamo Bay facility.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/imm...uards-n1279886
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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:20 AM   #2214
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Special envoy to Haiti resigns in protest of Biden admin's inhumane treatment of asylum seekers:

Quote:
Special Envoy for Haiti, Amb Daniel Foote, a career member of foreign service, has RESIGNED. In his letter of resignation, he says he will not be associated with the U.S.'s "inhumane, counterproductive decision to deport thousands of Haitian refugees." Letter attached.
https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1441004994694631428
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Old 23rd September 2021, 06:48 AM   #2215
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
To their credit, the vast majority of Democrats support the $3.5 trillion bill, so there is no way you can say it is some kind of leftist bill. Unless you are so far to the right of the Dems that you see even neoliberals like Biden as progressive.

Right now you "centrists" are doing nothing but stonewalling necessary actions that the country and the planet desperately need.
...and their party desperately needs; for Democrats, getting nothing done is a sure way to get people not to bother voting for you. (At least this time, finally being seen at least trying for once might help, but not as much as success would.)

...not that I believe they really care about the party they claim to be in but routinely work against just like a Republican plant would...
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Old 23rd September 2021, 07:22 AM   #2216
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
The collapse of the Capitalist system is an inherent result of the unsustainability of the system.
Just curious - post-collapse, what better system, if any, are you envisioning?
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Old 23rd September 2021, 07:31 AM   #2217
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Just curious - post-collapse, what better system, if any, are you envisioning?
The democratic socialism model of northern European countries seems to be working out well enough for them, we could use a bit of that. That doesn't seem like the kind of shift that should really require the complete collapse of capitalism to reach, but every time elements of it are proposed (like universal health care) we're informed that the uber-wealthy running the country will see it all collapse before they part with a single red cent. Sooner or later we're going to have to call their bluff.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 07:32 AM   #2218
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The only legislative victory the Dems need is election reform.
Without that, it doesn't matter what else they achieve.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 07:40 AM   #2219
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...and their party desperately needs; for Democrats, getting nothing done is a sure way to get people not to bother voting for you. (At least this time, finally being seen at least trying for once might help, but not as much as success would.)



...not that I believe they really care about the party they claim to be in but routinely work against just like a Republican plant would...
News this week that police reform bill has died as well.

The BLM protests are the largest liberal grassroots campaign in decades and the party is failing to respond in any meaningful way. The conservative elements are dead-set on proving the worst stereotypes of Democrats true, it's a party of out of touch, ineffectual elites.

Nobody should be surprised when voter turnout is poor in the coming elections. The party's message that better things aren't possible is coming through loud and clear.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 08:04 AM   #2220
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That is what happened in almost all the Colonial wars;the indigenous people could score the occasional win (Little Big Horn, Isandlhwanda)but in the end the Colonial powers superiort tech won.
It was not just a case of having weapons, but of being able to support the weapons.
Native Americans has many guns.some of them as good as what the US Army had in the Plains war, but the Native Americans could never get enough ammo for them.
It was more than just the technological advantage, though. Demographics were also key. The population growth of the colonies rapidly outpaced Native American population growth. Even with technological parity, even if they had the industrial base to support the weapons with ammo and everything else, demographics made conquest inevitable.

Looking at Ireland, the British never overwhelmed the native population with immigrants. Had they done so, Ireland would never have become independent. And even so, the region of Ireland that remained with the UK is precisely the region where there were the most immigrants.

If you colonize a region and become the majority of the population, you're going to win even long term. But that was never in the cards for Afghanistan. The country is too resource poor to support such a colonization.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 08:23 AM   #2221
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The democratic socialism model of northern European countries seems to be working out well enough for them, we could use a bit of that. That doesn't seem like the kind of shift that should really require the complete collapse of capitalism to reach, but every time elements of it are proposed (like universal health care) we're informed that the uber-wealthy running the country will see it all collapse before they part with a single red cent. Sooner or later we're going to have to call their bluff.
Good answer. Id be on board with Capitalism, tempered with socialism where it makes sense, and other rational safeguards to avoid massive income inequality and monopolies. I think fine tuning what we have can and will head us in that direction without a collapse.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 08:36 AM   #2222
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think fine tuning what we have can and will head us in that direction without a collapse.
That's the problem, we can't fine tune. We can't rein in corporate overreach or even malfeasance, they're all Too Big To Fail now. You can go look in the "rich get richer" thread to see arguments that we cannot possibly levy any tax on wealth or the wealthy will cripple the economy and kick a puppy on their way out of the country. We can't even agree to fund the government we have without a doomsday clock ticking down at the end of every fiscal year. Any attempts to make any improvements or even suggest such are met by using the economy as a human shield with a gun to its temple. You don't fine tune a hostage situation.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:50 AM   #2223
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
The collapse of the Capitalist system is an inherent result of the unsustainability of the system.
Well, seems to be that the "state controls everything/Command Economy" system has proven even more unstable.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:50 AM   #2224
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Yep, it is inevitable without social welfare policies to prop it up. And even then, it's a band-aid on a gaping wound.
And waht, pary tell, would you replace Captialism with?
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:52 AM   #2225
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And waht, pary tell, would you replace Captialism with?
Posadism. Bring on the dolphins and aliens baby.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:53 AM   #2226
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Good answer. Id be on board with Capitalism, tempered with socialism where it makes sense, and other rational safeguards to avoid massive income inequality and monopolies. I think fine tuning what we have can and will head us in that direction without a collapse.
THIS.
The problem with those who want to go all the way to A "Government controls everything and replaces market forces with government oroders" is that that system has proven a miderable failure when tried. A mixed system is much more viable.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:53 AM   #2227
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
That's the problem, we can't fine tune. We can't rein in corporate overreach or even malfeasance, they're all Too Big To Fail now. You can go look in the "rich get richer" thread to see arguments that we cannot possibly levy any tax on wealth or the wealthy will cripple the economy and kick a puppy on their way out of the country. We can't even agree to fund the government we have without a doomsday clock ticking down at the end of every fiscal year. Any attempts to make any improvements or even suggest such are met by using the economy as a human shield with a gun to its temple. You don't fine tune a hostage situation.
And your solution is......
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Old 23rd September 2021, 12:13 PM   #2228
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And your solution is......
Radical market economy
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Old 23rd September 2021, 12:29 PM   #2229
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And your solution is......
Complete capitulation in the interest of fleeting stability.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 12:40 PM   #2230
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...and their party desperately needs; for Democrats, getting nothing done is a sure way to get people not to bother voting for you. (At least this time, finally being seen at least trying for once might help, but not as much as success would.)

...not that I believe they really care about the party they claim to be in but routinely work against just like a Republican plant would...
Oh definitely. Even though getting nothing done has been how the Dems have operated for a long time, coasting on their motto of "At least we aren't the party of Trump!" and throwing some crumbs our way from time to time.

I don't think it matters too much how sincere they are, as long as we get results. I try not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 12:46 PM   #2231
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And your solution is......
Economic democracy. All private property (capital, land, etc.) will be commonly owned and managed by society as a whole.

Worker co-ops would be the norm, with businesses being democratically controlled and organized into larger workers councils with recallable delegates to help collectively decide on the economic direction of society.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 04:39 PM   #2232
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Economic democracy. All private property (capital, land, etc.) will be commonly owned and managed by society as a whole.

Worker co-ops would be the norm, with businesses being democratically controlled and organized into larger workers councils with recallable delegates to help collectively decide on the economic direction of society.
You can call communism by a different name, but that won't make it work.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 04:56 PM   #2233
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Communism doesn't work because it goes against human nature: greedy, selfish, and personal survival.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:23 PM   #2234
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Communism doesn't work because it goes against human nature: greedy, selfish, and personal survival.
You certainly have an extremely low opinion of humanity.

Homo sapiens are a social and communal species by nature. Greed, selfishness, and personal survival (at the expense of others) actually explicitly go against our nature.

Capitalism goes against the natural order of our species.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:39 PM   #2235
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
You certainly have an extremely low opinion of humanity.
It is borne out by experience.

Quote:
Homo sapiens are a social and communal species by nature. Greed, selfishness, and personal survival (at the expense of others) actually explicitly go against our nature.
You say that as if these qualities are mutually exclusive. They are not. Nor are we all the same, as you should well know. There are both angels and demons among us. A system designed for only angels will soon fall to the demons.

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Capitalism goes against the natural order of our species.
The concept of ownership is quite primal. Even infants seem to have it. All you need for capitalism is ownership plus freedom to exchange with others. If you think freedom to exchange with others is against our natural order, I think you are the one who has the lower opinion of human nature.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:42 PM   #2236
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
You certainly have an extremely low opinion of humanity.
Yep. Sixty-seven years watching humanity kill each other over the stupidest things, lie, cheat, and steal.

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Homo sapiens are a social and communal species by nature. Greed, selfishness, and personal survival (at the expense of others) actually explicitly go against our nature.
LOL! Yep, we're so social and communal by nature that our entire history consists of killing each other over the most trivial of things. Lying, cheating, stealing to get what we want.

Why do you think we have laws? HINT: Because we need negative consequences to help control our natural inclinations. And even then, they only help.

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Capitalism goes against the natural order of our species.
Nope, it feeds our nature because its essentially selfish and greedy. That's why it's been so successful and Communist countries fail unless propped up by capitalism. Even the Chinese are starting to understand that.

However, humans CAN be kind, gentle, and care about others. But they're certainly not our strongest traits. But that's why a combination of capitalism and socialism works best as seen in Canada and Northern European countries.

ETA: Wow. Zigg and I agree on something. It's a miracle!

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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:43 PM   #2237
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
You certainly have an extremely low opinion of humanity.

Homo sapiens are a social and communal species by nature. Greed, selfishness, and personal survival (at the expense of others) actually explicitly go against our nature.

Capitalism goes against the natural order of our species.
Because virtually all human societies haven't been hiarchial? You know, full of haves, have less, and have nots. Seems to me we have to teach our children to share, it doesn't seem to be innate.

ETA: And pretty much what Stacyhs said.

Last edited by kevbo; 23rd September 2021 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:46 PM   #2238
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Communism doesn't work because it goes against human nature: greedy, selfish, and personal survival.
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
You certainly have an extremely low opinion of humanity.

Homo sapiens are a social and communal species by nature. Greed, selfishness, and personal survival (at the expense of others) actually explicitly go against our nature.

Capitalism goes against the natural order of our species.
Sorry Boudicca I disagree.

There is no evidence that Communism outside of Kibbutz in Israel work. There are tons of issues associated with Capitalism, but the answer isn't a system that totally does away with self interest and markets.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:53 PM   #2239
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sorry Boudicca I disagree.

There is no evidence that Communism outside of Kibbutz in Israel work. There are tons of issues associated with Capitalism, but the answer isn't a system that totally does away with self interest and markets.
I said earlier it only works in small communities where people know each other on a personal level and have an immediate, personal benefit from working together. Kibbutzes are a good example.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 05:55 PM   #2240
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Communism doesn't work because it goes against human nature: greedy, selfish, and personal survival.
As opposed to capitalism, which brings out humanity's better natures
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