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Tags 2020 elections , Biden administration , Biden controversies , joe biden , Kamala Harris

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Old 23rd September 2021, 06:12 PM   #2241
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
As opposed to capitalism, which brings out humanity's better natures
Yeah, I'd prefer a system that at least tries to temper or mitigate our worst traits rather than embrace and amplify them.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 06:14 PM   #2242
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Yeah, I'd prefer a system that at least tries to temper or mitigate our worst traits rather than embrace and amplify them.
There is no system of pure capitalism on this planet, because such a system would be pure hell. We live in a mixed system. What we're haggling over is that exact mix.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 06:25 PM   #2243
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There is no system of pure capitalism on this planet, because such a system would be pure hell. We live in a mixed system. What we're haggling over is that exact mix.
This ^

Of course communism and capitalism don't work. You need a combination of the two.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 06:25 PM   #2244
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sorry Boudicca I disagree.

There is no evidence that Communism outside of Kibbutz in Israel work. There are tons of issues associated with Capitalism, but the answer isn't a system that totally does away with self interest and markets.
Self-interest and markets would still exist under my proposed system.

You can't eliminate all self-interest, we aren't the Borg after all, but through democratic ownership of capital a consensus would need to be reached among the interests of everybody who controls that capital. Rather than one person or a board of directors calling the shots for everybody.

I also don't want to eliminate markets, since a centralized authority has no way to determine the wants and needs of an entire population successfully, as long as scarcity is still a factor anyway. Which is why councils would be formed for the needs of individual industries. Markets and competition would still exist to a certain degree, they just wouldn't be the make or break risk they are in a capitalist society since you wouldn't be alone in that initial investment.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 06:29 PM   #2245
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There is no system of pure capitalism on this planet, because such a system would be pure hell. We live in a mixed system. What we're haggling over is that exact mix.
Yes exactly. I strongly feel that Capitalism and the rules of it should be reformed. But self interest is too strong a component of a good economic system to throw out. The problem with Capitalism today is that it is more aristocracy than meritocracy.

Far too many people's success is based on their heritage as opposed to work ethic or ingenuity.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 06:32 PM   #2246
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The problem with capitalism is that it dehumanizes everyone.
Work just becomes an interchangeable good, people are expected to function like a machine.
The current solution is to carve out enough spare time for people to feel human in. But that is pretty wasteful, when half the time you do things that for the other half of the time you need to recover from.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 08:51 PM   #2247
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Communism doesn't work because it goes against human nature: greedy, selfish, and personal survival.
As opposed to capitalism, which brings out humanity's better natures
Quip I saw from Soviet Russia: "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Communism is the reverse."

As SuburbanTurkey said, most countries are trying to determine the best mix. I'll add that there are both good and bad actors working on how to adjust the mix. The good ones want to extend the benefits of the system to as many as possible, while the bad ones want to grab as much as they can get away with. Unfortunately each plays by a different set of rules that seems to put the good ones at a disadvantage.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 09:30 PM   #2248
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And waht, pary tell, would you replace Captialism with?
I didn't realize it was a binary world. Capitalism or socialism and nothing in between....


Nm.. I see you've clarified that you don't either.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 09:31 PM   #2249
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To poke at a couple things in this discussion -

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Communism doesn't work because it goes against human nature: greedy, selfish, and personal survival.
Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Greed, selfishness, and personal survival (at the expense of others) actually explicitly go against our nature.
Both of these are off. Human nature is a pretty complex subject, after all. To take this a little further -

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You say that as if these qualities are mutually exclusive. They are not. Nor are we all the same, as you should well know. There are both angels and demons among us. A system designed for only angels will soon fall to the demons.
It might be much more accurate to say that we all have angels and demons within us. Very few people are solely "good" or "bad," and how people act frequently varies quite significantly based on the situation that they find themselves in. With that said, I'm of the camp that thinks that communism won't work (on a larger scale, at least, because immediate community bonds can be fairly powerful stabilizers) specifically because of the complexities of human nature - not even solely the obviously problematic parts like greed.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Of course communism and capitalism don't work. You need a combination of the two.
Quibble - actual communism is sufficiently different from the core from capitalism that "combination" is probably a bad way to put it. Compromise between the two should work, though.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 10:44 PM   #2250
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
As opposed to capitalism, which brings out humanity's better natures

Odd how you infer that from what I said. Saying that communism goes against human nature in no way means that capitalism brings out our 'better nature". One has zero to do with the other. However, unlike communism, capitalism play well with some of our worst nature: greed and selfishness. Greed and selfishness are often what make a successful capitalist.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 10:45 PM   #2251
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Yeah, I'd prefer a system that at least tries to temper or mitigate our worst traits rather than embrace and amplify them.
So do I which is why I also said:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

Nope, it feeds our nature because its essentially selfish and greedy. That's why it's been so successful and Communist countries fail unless propped up by capitalism. Even the Chinese are starting to understand that.

However, humans CAN be kind, gentle, and care about others. But they're certainly not our strongest traits. But that's why a combination of capitalism and socialism works best as seen in Canada and Northern European countries.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 10:51 PM   #2252
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Yeah, I'd prefer a system that at least tries to temper or mitigate our worst traits rather than embrace and amplify them.
So do I which is why I also said:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

Nope, it feeds our nature because its essentially selfish and greedy. That's why it's been so successful and Communist countries fail unless propped up by capitalism. Even the Chinese are starting to understand that.

However, humans CAN be kind, gentle, and care about others. But they're certainly not our strongest traits. But that's why a combination of capitalism and socialism works best as seen in Canada and Northern European countries.
Aridas, this is also in response to your post. Please note that I also said:

Quote:
Wow. Zigg and I agree on something. It's a miracle!
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Old 23rd September 2021, 11:29 PM   #2253
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So do I which is why I also said:







Aridas, this is also in response to your post. Please note that I also said:
I'm in agreement. I think most of us are saying similar things in different words, and so vague and brief (with dashes of tongue-in-cheek/satire spices) that confusion is rampant.

I think which traits come to the fore in a person (and by way of shared culture, society as well) is heavily influenced during early social development. Add in a layer of people exuding traits a culture reveres being more likely to produce offspring (and impart those same social values).

But this isn't the thread for a treatise on epigenetic theories, so I'll digress :9.
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Old 24th September 2021, 12:08 AM   #2254
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Aridas, this is also in response to your post. Please note that I also said:
Fair enough. When I wrote it, I admit to having assumed that you already understood that general principle anyways, though. However, I think that we may disagree a bit about the balance from your characterization, much as "it's complex and usually strongly related to the conditions at hand" probably works just fine on the topic of my opinion about what the balance is when it comes to the balance of more self-centered and not self-centered traits, rather than simply characterizing those not so self-centered traits as weaker.
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Old 24th September 2021, 12:56 AM   #2255
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm in agreement. I think most of us are saying similar things in different words, and so vague and brief (with dashes of tongue-in-cheek/satire spices) that confusion is rampant.

I think which traits come to the fore in a person (and by way of shared culture, society as well) is heavily influenced during early social development. Add in a layer of people exuding traits a culture reveres being more likely to produce offspring (and impart those same social values).
When I was a small child I was extremely selfish, and jealous of people who had more than me. If that had been encouraged I might have become a raging capitalist. But then my brother arrived, and my mother insisted that we share everything equally (how unfair is that? I was 18 months older than him, and bigger and smarter, so I should have gotten more!). She also told me about Jesus and made me read the Bible - which was my first exposure to Communism.

I lapped it up. "The meek shall inherit the Earth", it said. "A rich man has less chance of getting into Heaven than a camel has of squeezing through the eye of a needle!". The righteous would ask "When did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?" And Jesus would reply "As you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.".

Yes, if it wasn't for that childhood indoctrination I might have kept my capitalist instincts and become rich beyond my wildest dreams, and not have had to deal with all this guilt!

But one thing puzzles me. Republicans are more likely to be strong believers in the 'literal' truth of the Bible, yet they are also more likely to embrace capitalist rather than communist ideas - exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught! Why is it that democrats - who profess to favor science and logic over religious dogma - are more open to sharing their wealth and caring for the less fortunate? It's a mystery for sure, and shows how little we know about how people are influenced by culture during early social development.
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Old 24th September 2021, 02:01 AM   #2256
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
When I was a small child I was extremely selfish, and jealous of people who had more than me. If that had been encouraged I might have become a raging capitalist. But then my brother arrived, and my mother insisted that we share everything equally (how unfair is that? I was 18 months older than him, and bigger and smarter, so I should have gotten more!). She also told me about Jesus and made me read the Bible - which was my first exposure to Communism.

I lapped it up. "The meek shall inherit the Earth", it said. "A rich man has less chance of getting into Heaven than a camel has of squeezing through the eye of a needle!". The righteous would ask "When did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?" And Jesus would reply "As you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.".

Yes, if it wasn't for that childhood indoctrination I might have kept my capitalist instincts and become rich beyond my wildest dreams, and not have had to deal with all this guilt!

But one thing puzzles me. Republicans are more likely to be strong believers in the 'literal' truth of the Bible, yet they are also more likely to embrace capitalist rather than communist ideas - exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught! Why is it that democrats - who profess to favor science and logic over religious dogma - are more open to sharing their wealth and caring for the less fortunate? It's a mystery for sure, and shows how little we know about how people are influenced by culture during early social development.
Good points and good questions, Roger R.

I'm also of the opinion that our personality traits are about 50-50 nature vs nurture. Like clay and play-doh, we can be shaped and molded but clay is never going to be play-doh and play-doh is never going to be clay.
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Old 24th September 2021, 03:29 AM   #2257
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm in agreement. I think most of us are saying similar things in different words, and so vague and brief (with dashes of tongue-in-cheek/satire spices) that confusion is rampant.

I think which traits come to the fore in a person (and by way of shared culture, society as well) is heavily influenced during early social development. Add in a layer of people exuding traits a culture reveres being more likely to produce offspring (and impart those same social values).

But this isn't the thread for a treatise on epigenetic theories, so I'll digress :9.
I agree, it's never entirely nature or nurture. We are all the sum total of our parts.
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Old 24th September 2021, 06:06 AM   #2258
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Are you positioning yourself with Manchin and Sinema? They are the ones ST is talking about.
Not strictly true. They often had more ammunition available than the army in remote locations and were using repeating rifles whereas the army stuck with single shot rifles.

Logistics did it though, being able to fortify on captured ground and effectively unlimited numbers of men to replace those lost is what decided it in the end as much as ammunition.
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Old 24th September 2021, 06:58 AM   #2259
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
When I was a small child I was extremely selfish, and jealous of people who had more than me. If that had been encouraged I might have become a raging capitalist. But then my brother arrived, and my mother insisted that we share everything equally (how unfair is that? I was 18 months older than him, and bigger and smarter, so I should have gotten more!). She also told me about Jesus and made me read the Bible - which was my first exposure to Communism.

I lapped it up. "The meek shall inherit the Earth", it said. "A rich man has less chance of getting into Heaven than a camel has of squeezing through the eye of a needle!". The righteous would ask "When did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?" And Jesus would reply "As you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.".

Yes, if it wasn't for that childhood indoctrination I might have kept my capitalist instincts and become rich beyond my wildest dreams, and not have had to deal with all this guilt!

But one thing puzzles me. Republicans are more likely to be strong believers in the 'literal' truth of the Bible, yet they are also more likely to embrace capitalist rather than communist ideas - exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught! Why is it that democrats - who profess to favor science and logic over religious dogma - are more open to sharing their wealth and caring for the less fortunate? It's a mystery for sure, and shows how little we know about how people are influenced by culture during early social development.
I think you are onto something here.

Even though I'm an atheist, I was brought up much the same way as you, though I didn't have any siblings. My parents were Catholic and emphasized and made sure to practice Jesus's selfless and giving nature, rather than focus on sin and hellfire like other parents. And that's what I still basically believe in today, even if I don't believe in God or Jesus.

Marx and Engels in developing the concept of scientific socialism would often compare their beliefs to the utopian socialists who preceded them. Often the earlier utopian socialists were more influenced by religious beliefs like Christianity, but still had some good ideas that Marx would incorporate into his own work.
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Old 24th September 2021, 07:05 AM   #2260
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Marx and Engels in developing the concept of scientific socialism would often compare their beliefs to the utopian socialists who preceded them. Often the earlier utopian socialists were more influenced by religious beliefs like Christianity, but still had some good ideas that Marx would incorporate into his own work.
Despite their pretense, nothing about Marx and Engels is actually scientific. And history has proven them completely wrong. They thought industrial capitalism would evolve into communism. But the way communists actually gained power was through violent revolution in decidedly non-capitalist, often agrarian societies. They also couldn't conceive of the rapid growth of worker productivity in capitalist industrial societies which allowed an unprecedented increase in standard of living across the board, not just for the rich.
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Old 24th September 2021, 07:29 AM   #2261
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Despite their pretense, nothing about Marx and Engels is actually scientific. And history has proven them completely wrong. They thought industrial capitalism would evolve into communism. But the way communists actually gained power was through violent revolution in decidedly non-capitalist, often agrarian societies. They also couldn't conceive of the rapid growth of worker productivity in capitalist industrial societies which allowed an unprecedented increase in standard of living across the board, not just for the rich.
Lol, what? Marx and his contemporaries didn't think industrial capitalism would "evolve" into communism. That's impossible. A socialist revolution is necessary to eventually bring about communism. Marxism 101.

You are right that people like Lenin and Mao decided to wage socialist revolutions in countries that were so far from the requirement of fully-developed industrial capitalism that it was impossible for them to fully succeed.

The US and other first world countries however are ready at this point.
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Old 24th September 2021, 07:48 AM   #2262
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Lol, what? Marx and his contemporaries didn't think industrial capitalism would "evolve" into communism. That's impossible. A socialist revolution is necessary to eventually bring about communism. Marxism 101.
Perhaps I'm not making myself clear.

Marx thought capitalism would inevitably change into communism. He called this a revolution, but it's more in the sense that the industrial revolution was a revolution, an inevitable historical process which is called a revolution because it introduces radical change. Actual violent political revolutions are not inevitable processes, they are peculiar processes that don't have to happen, they can fail, and oddly enough even when successful they don't necessarily produce much change beyond who's in charge.

But capitalism doesn't turn into communism, ever. It is only non-capitalist countries which turn to communism. And it is never democratic, as Marx believed it would be.

In other words, Marx was fundamentally wrong about how history works.

Quote:
You are right that people like Lenin and Mao decided to wage socialist revolutions in countries that were so far from the requirement of fully-developed industrial capitalism that it was impossible for them to fully succeed.

The US and other first world countries however are ready at this point.
Yeah, no. This is basically just the same sort of rationalization that cult members do when their prophet's predicted doomsday fails to materialize.
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Old 24th September 2021, 09:05 AM   #2263
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Biden is getting his booster shot. I bet there will be a lot of right-wing prayer on this one.
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Old 24th September 2021, 10:00 AM   #2264
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
When I was a small child I was extremely selfish, and jealous of people who had more than me. If that had been encouraged I might have become a raging capitalist. But then my brother arrived, and my mother insisted that we share everything equally (how unfair is that? I was 18 months older than him, and bigger and smarter, so I should have gotten more!). She also told me about Jesus and made me read the Bible - which was my first exposure to Communism.

I lapped it up. "The meek shall inherit the Earth", it said. "A rich man has less chance of getting into Heaven than a camel has of squeezing through the eye of a needle!". The righteous would ask "When did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?" And Jesus would reply "As you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.".

Yes, if it wasn't for that childhood indoctrination I might have kept my capitalist instincts and become rich beyond my wildest dreams, and not have had to deal with all this guilt!

But one thing puzzles me. Republicans are more likely to be strong believers in the 'literal' truth of the Bible, yet they are also more likely to embrace capitalist rather than communist ideas - exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught! Why is it that democrats - who profess to favor science and logic over religious dogma - are more open to sharing their wealth and caring for the less fortunate? It's a mystery for sure, and shows how little we know about how people are influenced by culture during early social development.
Christian (evangelical/Southern Baptist) doctrine, as I experienced it, had a strong undercurrent of greed. They merely channel it to "rewards in heaven" for the most part (so, like an investment with future returns). A long history of "prosperity doctrine/puritan work ethic" is baked in, at this point.
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Old 24th September 2021, 10:08 AM   #2265
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Lol, what? Marx and his contemporaries didn't think industrial capitalism would "evolve" into communism. That's impossible. A socialist revolution is necessary to eventually bring about communism. Marxism 101.



You are right that people like Lenin and Mao decided to wage socialist revolutions in countries that were so far from the requirement of fully-developed industrial capitalism that it was impossible for them to fully succeed.



The US and other first world countries however are ready at this point.
"Evolve" is probably not the right term.

But they produced a lot of literature saying political reforms would need to happen to "bring about the conditions necessary" for even further social reforms. They were echoing/expanding on similar themes from the French Revolution and the (largely unsuccessful) movements in mid-1800s across Europe, concluding those earlier examples all failed to take these next steps.
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Old 24th September 2021, 10:15 AM   #2266
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Biden is getting his booster shot. I bet there will be a lot of right-wing prayer on this one.
Good thing the vaccines are safe.

Well, except for the cons, who will be wishing harm upon the President, in accordance with their religious beliefs.
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Old 24th September 2021, 10:19 AM   #2267
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Biden getting the Booster is an obvious trick to make Republicans refuse their first dose.
Clearly, Biden wouldn't do it to set a good example.
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Old 24th September 2021, 02:13 PM   #2268
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I had the Moderna vaccine so I can't get a booster yet. Hopefully, Moderna will be OK'd soon.
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Old 24th September 2021, 02:37 PM   #2269
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Lol, what? Marx and his contemporaries didn't think industrial capitalism would "evolve" into communism. That's impossible. A socialist revolution is necessary to eventually bring about communism. Marxism 101.

You are right that people like Lenin and Mao decided to wage socialist revolutions in countries that were so far from the requirement of fully-developed industrial capitalism that it was impossible for them to fully succeed.

The US and other first world countries however are ready at this point.
AH, the old "Communism is Wonderful Idea, only the right people have not tried it yet" theory.
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Old 24th September 2021, 02:40 PM   #2270
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Marxism is like a religion; the true beleivers are undettered by facts and evidence when it conflicts with the Word of Their All Wise, All Knowing Leader.
The Glorious People's Revolution is always just around the corner...like the Second Coming of Christ.
And the real kicker is that many Marxist consider themselves to be "rational thinkers".
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Old 24th September 2021, 02:45 PM   #2271
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Economic democracy. All private property (capital, land, etc.) will be commonly owned and managed by society as a whole.

Worker co-ops would be the norm, with businesses being democratically controlled and organized into larger workers councils with recallable delegates to help collectively decide on the economic direction of society.
So no one will be able to own their own home or their own farm or their own small business? That will really be popular.
Your system has been tried and failed time and time again.
And your view of Human Nature is ..well,,just plain wrong.
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Old 24th September 2021, 02:45 PM   #2272
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Despite their pretense, nothing about Marx and Engels is actually scientific. And history has proven them completely wrong. They thought industrial capitalism would evolve into communism. But the way communists actually gained power was through violent revolution in decidedly non-capitalist, often agrarian societies. They also couldn't conceive of the rapid growth of worker productivity in capitalist industrial societies which allowed an unprecedented increase in standard of living across the board, not just for the rich.
No, not across the board. Standards of living have been decreasing in the US for the last 40 years. Homelessness in the US is at an all time high.

And btw, almost nothing about how Communist nations were actually run is taken from Karl Marx's work.

Now, I don't think Marx was right, but there is little doubt unfettered Capitalism is a disaster for a substantial percentage of the population and workforce.
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Old 24th September 2021, 02:48 PM   #2273
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Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
Because virtually all human societies haven't been hiarchial? You know, full of haves, have less, and have nots. Seems to me we have to teach our children to share, it doesn't seem to be innate.

ETA: And pretty much what Stacyhs said.
And no society has been more hiarchial then the countries where Marxsim has been tried. The Soviet Union, where the upper levels of the Party became basically a new aristoricacy is a good example. Same thing happened in CHina and every other "Marxist" country.
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Old 24th September 2021, 02:51 PM   #2274
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, not across the board. Standards of living have been decreasing in the US for the last 40 years. Homelessness in the US is at an all time high.

And btw, almost nothing about how Communist nations were actually run is taken from Karl Marx's work.

Now, I don't think Marx was right, but there is little doubt unfettered Capitalism is a disaster for a substantial percentage of the population and workforce.
Question becomes if we are not going through another period of rapid economic change brought about by new technologies..in this case computers and other forms of AI....programmed machings replacing most assembly line workers, for instance.
Same as happened in the 19th Century Industrial Revolution..it took a long time for that to settle down also.
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Old 24th September 2021, 03:31 PM   #2275
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Question becomes if we are not going through another period of rapid economic change brought about by new technologies..in this case computers and other forms of AI....programmed machings replacing most assembly line workers, for instance.
Same as happened in the 19th Century Industrial Revolution..it took a long time for that to settle down also.
Of course we are. We have been in a steady transition from manufacturing and agriculture to service employment for the last 50 years. Computers have only added to that steady transition. But we don't pay service workers well and the GOP has managed to destroy the unions.

Capitalism with all its negatives has led to the greatest expansion of wealth that one could imagine. Capitalism is efficient. Marx said this in Das Kapital

But it at the same time it has led to the greatest division of wealth. And this is a problem.
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Old 24th September 2021, 05:20 PM   #2276
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Real problem I have with Marxism is in the end it's a Utopian system dedicated to building Paradise on Earth...a perfect society. It never happens because you can't build a perfect society with
imperfect people. And when in power, Utopians blame people for the failure of their schemes rather then reality, and often decide the way forward is to try to coerce people into being perfect through "social engineering" projects that often boils down to treating people like the dirt in an engineering project..to be moved around and thrown aside as necessary.
I give you Stalin's five year plans and Mao's Great Leap Forward as examples.
At best total failures, at worst murder machiines as bad as anything Hitler came up with.

From Each according to his ablity,to each according to his need will never work with Human Beings. The people with the ability, will get tired of sacricing evenrything to the people with needs.
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Old 24th September 2021, 05:40 PM   #2277
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Marxism is like a religion; the true beleivers are undettered by facts and evidence when it conflicts with the Word of Their All Wise, All Knowing Leader.
The Glorious People's Revolution is always just around the corner...like the Second Coming of Christ.
And the real kicker is that many Marxist consider themselves to be "rational thinkers".
That's probably true of Marxism.

The problem with Marxism often being it bares little resemblance to anything Marx ever wrote or said.
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Old 24th September 2021, 05:50 PM   #2278
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Real problem I have with Marxism is in the end it's a Utopian system dedicated to building Paradise on Earth...a perfect society. It never happens because you can't build a perfect society with
imperfect people. And when in power, Utopians blame people for the failure of their schemes rather then reality, and often decide the way forward is to try to coerce people into being perfect through "social engineering" projects that often boils down to treating people like the dirt in an engineering project..to be moved around and thrown aside as necessary.
I give you Stalin's five year plans and Mao's Great Leap Forward as examples.
At best total failures, at worst murder machiines as bad as anything Hitler came up with.

From Each according to his ablity,to each according to his need will never work with Human Beings. The people with the ability, will get tired of sacricing evenrything to the people with needs.
Yeah, but the reality is that we don't necessarily reward those with ability. Most wealth today is inherited and not created from scratch. Capitalism rewards ability, but mostly it rewards the offspring of ability.
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Old 24th September 2021, 06:05 PM   #2279
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
That's probably true of Marxism.

The problem with Marxism often being it bares little resemblance to anything Marx ever wrote or said.
I don't quite buy that since Marx was wrong on so many things I don't think he is a reliable guide to much.
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Old 24th September 2021, 06:30 PM   #2280
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And no society has been more hiarchial then the countries where Marxsim has been tried. The Soviet Union, where the upper levels of the Party became basically a new aristoricacy is a good example. Same thing happened in CHina and every other "Marxist" country.
True. That's because it goes against our nature. Once someone gets something, they want to hang onto it. And that goes for power, too. It's why people tend to get more conservative as they get older; they've got something they want to keep. Young people tend to be more idealistic because they haven't really accumulated anything of worth yet.

I was watching a program about abandoned buildings and they were showing the ruins of a once huge spa in the former Yugoslavia or Romania, I forget which. But it was built in secret because it was only open to the ruling Communist elite.

Communism is a lovely idea but so are flying unicorns.
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