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Tags 2020 elections , Biden administration , Biden controversies , joe biden , Kamala Harris

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Old 4th October 2021, 01:22 PM   #2401
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You do get that "infrastructure plan" means jobs are created, therefore people have money to spend on goods, and thus improves our economy, right?
Yes, but you have to pay the salaries of all these workers.

Do you launch an ambitious modernization plan when you are still a feeble man (or woman), in a process of recovering?
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Old 4th October 2021, 01:26 PM   #2402
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, but you have to pay the salaries of all these workers.

Do you launch an ambitious modernization plan when you are still a feeble man (or woman), in a process of recovering?
You do when the same people are the reason the man is having such a hard time recovering.

Your "sick man" metaphor is dishonestly wrong.
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Old 4th October 2021, 01:32 PM   #2403
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. Why is this a problem now and now a year ago when Trump was President?
It seems to be more a problem now, since:
Quote:
Biden warns ‘meteor headed to crash’ into US economy amid debt struggle
(https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...cans-democrats).

Trump didn't have a $2 trillion plan to rebuild infrastructure (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/b...ture-plan.html). His wall, though perhaps absurd, didn't cost 2 trillion dollars (it was cheaper).

Biden, though probably more humane and rational, thinks perhaps he is the "Napoleon of infrastructure".
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Old 4th October 2021, 01:36 PM   #2404
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You do when the same people are the reason the man is having such a hard time recovering.

Your "sick man" metaphor is dishonestly wrong.
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, but you have to pay the salaries of all these workers.

Do you launch an ambitious modernization plan when you are still a feeble man (or woman), in a process of recovering?
Yes. This is exactly the time to launch federal programs. See for example:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civili...ervation_Corps
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Old 4th October 2021, 01:41 PM   #2405
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
No, don't. Economics, the Dismal Science, is the same anywhere you go. I for one value your input.

American politics? Hey, jump right in. You wouldn't learn anything special by visiting the US.

Some of the dumbest and worst-informed opinions on America are held -- and bellowed -- by native-born Murricans. Well hell, that's old stuff right there.
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Old 4th October 2021, 01:42 PM   #2406
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Thank you. Well work done decades ago towards an MPhil degree in English with a thesis on early postcolonial American fiction from a Marxian critical perspective and a demanding supervisor who was in the midst of it during the Kent State shoot out helped.
Say wot?
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Old 4th October 2021, 01:43 PM   #2407
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Besides our country's infrastructure is in such great shape...
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Old 4th October 2021, 01:46 PM   #2408
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You are really demonizing the Republican party here.

You would do that with Trump, I would (perhaps) say ok ...

But the whole Republican party?

Really no decent people there?
When I speak of the Republicans, I'm speaking about those in power right now: the extreme right wing Trumpist Congressmembers and those who put their personal agenda before the good of the country like McConnell.

There are plenty of decent and honest Republicans but I fear they have been drowned out and disempowered by those I describe above.
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Old 4th October 2021, 01:47 PM   #2409
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Is there like a newsletter that goes out that tells people what to talk about when they want to avoid the subject?

We're already got a "Oh so you're saying just because people vote for Republicans they hold Republican opinions" thread going on.
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Old 4th October 2021, 02:46 PM   #2410
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Yes. This is exactly the time to launch federal programs. See for example:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civili...ervation_Corps
I've been saying for years now how if we really want to fix and build our infrastructure and create new jobs and opportunities, we need a new CCC.

It was one of the most successful aspects of the New Deal, and we could really use it today.
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Old 4th October 2021, 03:27 PM   #2411
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The U.S. National debt is about 130% of GDP now, and has increased fast recently, which means that the U.S. is paying their bills more and more by borrowing Chinese money, see this webpage: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...c-product-gdp/.



This seems especially dangerous (though I am not an economist) because of the threat of debt default:



(https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...cans-democrats).
The default wouldn't be because of inability to maintain revolving debt agreements, but because we made a rule saying we wouldn't beyond a certain point.

That's a strange definition of being "broke."
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Old 4th October 2021, 03:33 PM   #2412
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, but you have to pay the salaries of all these workers.



Do you launch an ambitious modernization plan when you are still a feeble man (or woman), in a process of recovering?
Yes, that's exactly when "you" (the government) do so. Businesses can't (and won't) just decide to build public works.

We've gone entirely backwards for decades. Spending when the economy is hot (and the price of things is high) and belt-tightening when it slows down (when things are cheap and when that belt tightening exacerbates the slowdown even more).

Government should save up during the boom and spend on the dips. It is both cost-efficient and mitigates the recessions.

The government is the only entity that can swim against the current in such a fashion, as profit seeking entities can't justify it (or stay in business long).

Public spending is not properly compared to business or household/individual budgeting.
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Old 4th October 2021, 03:57 PM   #2413
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The default wouldn't be because of inability to maintain revolving debt agreements, but because we made a rule saying we wouldn't beyond a certain point.

That's a strange definition of being "broke."
Even if you can find bankers who are willing to lend money to you, this doesn't mean you aren't broke.

This may give you a delusion of infinite wealth and power, but it is just a delusion.

What is really typical of broke people is that they borrow a lot (and perhaps more and more).

Having said this, the U.S. is clearly not the poorest in the world (far from it).

But wanting to borrow more and more to finance grandiose projects may not be the right thing to do when your country is still a half-sick man.

To me, it doesn't seem difficult to say "instead of spending 2 trillion on infrastructure, and I am clearly going into the wall, I am going to spend just one trillion."

Last edited by Michel H; 4th October 2021 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 4th October 2021, 04:03 PM   #2414
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I've been saying for years now how if we really want to fix and build our infrastructure and create new jobs and opportunities, we need a new CCC.

It was one of the most successful aspects of the New Deal, and we could really use it today.
I've also thought that. But you know the opposition: commiesocialistlibtards!!

Conservatives were also against the CCC and other New Deal projects in the 30's. Go figure. But, man, they do love those tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy!
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Old 4th October 2021, 04:10 PM   #2415
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Even if you can find bankers who are willing to lend money to you, this doesn't mean you aren't broke.

This may give you a delusion of infinite wealth and power, but it is just a delusion.

What is really typical of broke people is that they borrow a lot (and perhaps more and more).

Having said this, the U.S. is clearly not the poorest in the world (far from it).

But wanting to borrow more and more to finance grandiose projects may not be the right thing to do when your country is still a half-sick man.

To me, it doesn't seem difficult to say "instead of spending 2 trillion on infrastructure, and I am clearly going into the wall, I am going to spend just one trillion."
Biden and the Dems are compromising:

Quote:
Democrats have a new deadline to enact President Joe Biden’s economic agenda.

The party will try to pass both a bipartisan infrastructure bill and a broader investment in social programs by the end of October, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., told his caucus in a letter Monday. The party aims to approve the plans before the Oct. 31 expiration of major transportation funding programs, which the infrastructure legislation would renew.

To pass what they bill as a transformative investment in the social safety net and climate policy, Democrats will have to satisfy progressives who thought an initial $3.5 trillion price tag was too small and at least one centrist who wants to spend no more than $1.5 trillion. Negotiations around the plan, which kicked into high gear last week, would have to yield a breakthrough in the coming days for Congress to write and pass a bill in time.

“Not every member will get everything he or she wanted,” Schumer wrote to Senate Democrats. “But at the end of the day, we will pass legislation that will dramatically improve the lives of the American people. I believe we are going to do just that in the month of October.”

The Senate leader said he wanted to reach a final deal “within a matter of days, not weeks.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/04/schu...n-october.html
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Old 4th October 2021, 04:25 PM   #2416
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
These are arguments ...

But America is broke,
It doesn't really work that way. Going past that, though, there's the issue of where that money's going, though. Investment versus exploitation. Democrats are trying to do the former, which has quite the history of paying itself off with interest. Republicans keep trying to do the latter, which has quite the history of not paying off very well at all.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
and debt default is threatening.
May as well point directly at the Republicans for that.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
But, don't you think it may be wise and justified for some Republicans to be concerned about big spending, big deficits and big debt?
It can be! Not just Republicans, of course. Responsible spending should be an important thing across the political spectrum. Not just with the totals, of course. Establishing oversight on the distribution of large amounts of funds to ensure that they're being used properly is something that should be standard and normal. Unfortunately, as we've seen yet again in recent times, Republicans are firmly opposed to such (when they're in charge, at least), which led to a LOT of misuse and exactly the kinds of bad things that they rail against. Democrats, on the other hand, are more likely to overdo it on that front than neglect it. As a general rule, though, Democrats have been much more responsible on budget issues than Republicans, though Republicans do a much better job with messaging (and that's not hurt by how shameless they're willing to be).

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In a democracy, shouldn't they be listened to, with their opinions taken into account, rather than be treated with contempt?
Sure! It's just when they've made it perfectly obvious that they're not offering opinions on the topic in good faith, that is what earns them that contempt.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You are really demonizing the Republican party here.

You would do that with Trump, I would (perhaps) say ok ...

But the whole Republican party?

Really no decent people there?
The whole Republican party? If you're including the average voter registered as Republican, there are certainly are plenty of more honest people there desire for the Republican Party to work in the best interests of the US. However, Republican politicians and propagandists far too commonly ignore most of the opinions of the voters, though, in favor of their special interest masters, as well as employ tactics that are directly harmful to the US in a myriad of ways as they work to secure and gain more power. Feel free to look back just a few months to that utter farce that was far too many of them refusing to acknowledge Biden's win, despite knowing plenty well that Biden won fair and square.
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Old 4th October 2021, 04:36 PM   #2417
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Even if you can find bankers who are willing to lend money to you, this doesn't mean you aren't broke.

This may give you a delusion of infinite wealth and power, but it is just a delusion.

What is really typical of broke people is that they borrow a lot (and perhaps more and more).

Having said this, the U.S. is clearly not the poorest in the world (far from it).

But wanting to borrow more and more to finance grandiose projects may not be the right thing to do when your country is still a half-sick man.

To me, it doesn't seem difficult to say "instead of spending 2 trillion on infrastructure, and I am clearly going into the wall, I am going to spend just one trillion."
Again, you're trying to equate modern nation-state financing to a household or personal budget.

By your definition of "broke" nearly every country* on earth is too. In addition to almost every major corporation.

* the bulk of exceptions being those who have large reserves of mineral wealth they exploit. Despite their admirable balance sheet, they all seem to have appalling standards of living, however and I doubt very seriously you would want to live in any of them.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 4th October 2021 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 4th October 2021, 04:46 PM   #2418
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The default wouldn't be because of inability to maintain revolving debt agreements, but because we made a rule saying we wouldn't beyond a certain point.

That's a strange definition of being "broke."

Broke? America would have to come up with something north of twenty trillion dollars to work our way back up to just "broke".
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Old 4th October 2021, 05:09 PM   #2419
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Michel H, you really need to read up on International Economics and how National budgets work. There is distinct evidence of the lack of fundamental knowledge of the subject in your posts.
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Old 4th October 2021, 05:15 PM   #2420
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Say wot?
MPhil thesis on Charles Brockden Brown: American Gothic in the age of a new dawn.

After which, while working as editor at an academic publishing firm, got a National open university MA in Economics, with Statistics and Indian History as minors.
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:00 PM   #2421
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
MPhil thesis on Charles Brockden Brown: American Gothic in the age of a new dawn.

After which, while working as editor at an academic publishing firm, got a National open university MA in Economics, with Statistics and Indian History as minors.
Quite the underachiever, aren't ya?
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Old 4th October 2021, 06:05 PM   #2422
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Quite the underachiever, aren't ya?
Tell me about it...my parents still think I wasted my life by not "become an Engineer or a Doctor like Mr. Sharma's good little kids."
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Old 4th October 2021, 11:42 PM   #2423
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Tell me about it...my parents still think I wasted my life by not "become an Engineer or a Doctor like Mr. Sharma's good little kids."
I had a good friend, recently passed away, who came from India to the US when he was three years old. He earned a Ph.D in Petrochemical Engineering from Rice University which is a very highly regarded university. His parents never got over him not becoming a 'real' doctor...although his son did and is now in medical research. He was one of the nicest guys I've ever known.
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Old 5th October 2021, 01:58 AM   #2424
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Michel H, you really need to read up on International Economics and how National budgets work. There is distinct evidence of the lack of fundamental knowledge of the subject in your posts.
This is more a personal attack than an actual argument.
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Old 5th October 2021, 02:15 AM   #2425
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Again, you're trying to equate modern nation-state financing to a household or personal budget.

By your definition of "broke" nearly every country* on earth is too. In addition to almost every major corporation.

* the bulk of exceptions being those who have large reserves of mineral wealth they exploit. Despite their admirable balance sheet, they all seem to have appalling standards of living, however and I doubt very seriously you would want to live in any of them.
Do you remember the 2007-2008 financial crisis? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ...s_of_2007-2008).

With the bankruptcy of the Lehman Brothers bank, it was quite severe.

If the U.S. debt-ceiling limit is not raised in time, we could perhaps see a crisis which is even worse (while it is true that I am not an economist).

It is true that it has become very common for states to borrow money and to have large national debts, but I think that this is not an entirely healthy policy, it generates risks of default, it encourages laziness.

With the kind of approval ratings that he has now, Biden should not think he is God, and should (in my humble opinion) make concessions, not only to his fellow Democrats, but also to Republicans that he has long frequented as a senator.
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Old 5th October 2021, 04:08 AM   #2426
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This is more a personal attack than an actual argument.
It is definitely not an argument. It is an observation based on your responses and advice. If you wish to take it as a personal attack...so be it.
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Old 5th October 2021, 05:52 AM   #2427
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"You noticed I have a pattern" is not a personal attack.

Being told you are wrong is not a personal attack.

Being told you are wrong AND have an obvious ulterior motive is not a personal attack.

"Personal Attack" does not equal "Negative comment of a personal nature."
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Old 5th October 2021, 09:31 AM   #2428
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
These are arguments ...

But America is broke, and debt default is threatening.

.
America is not "broke" in any way. In fact, America could pay off the entire debt any time it wanted it. All it has to do is print the money to do it.

Now, you could argue (correctly) that this would lead to an economic disaster, and you would be exactly right. Which is why the US doesn't do that.

There is a balance between printing new money and borrowing. The risk of printing money is inflation. The risk of borrowing is out of control interest rates. But so far, that's not a problem. Interest rates are very low, so it's better for the government to keep borrowing.

It's not broke, it just chooses to borrow money because it's better fiscal policy.
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Old 5th October 2021, 09:38 AM   #2429
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Do you remember the 2007-2008 financial crisis? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ...s_of_2007-2008).



With the bankruptcy of the Lehman Brothers bank, it was quite severe.



If the U.S. debt-ceiling limit is not raised in time, we could perhaps see a crisis which is even worse (while it is true that I am not an economist).



It is true that it has become very common for states to borrow money and to have large national debts, but I think that this is not an entirely healthy policy, it generates risks of default, it encourages laziness.



With the kind of approval ratings that he has now, Biden should not think he is God, and should (in my humble opinion) make concessions, not only to his fellow Democrats, but also to Republicans that he has long frequented as a senator.
Concessions have already been made. Repeatedly.

What concessions have the Republicans (and 2 Democratic Senators) made?

ETA: Lehman Brothers is yet another entirely different matter. They overexposed themselves to underperforming assets and got caught holding the bag when the music stopped (terrible mixed metaphor, but whatevs).

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Old 5th October 2021, 09:45 AM   #2430
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Trump didn't have a $2 trillion plan to rebuild infrastructure (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/b...ture-plan.html). His wall, though perhaps absurd, didn't cost 2 trillion dollars (it was cheaper).
Trump's Wall was cheaper than Biden's infrastructure plan, but it was also almost completely useless.

On the other hand, the infrastructure plan will have some direct benefits that will be felt all across the U.S.... better roads/bridges, support for new industries, etc.

Given a choice, I think a billion dollars wasted on a useless wall is a bigger problem than a trillion dollars spent for something that might actually be useful.
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Old 5th October 2021, 09:59 AM   #2431
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Concessions have already been made. Repeatedly.

What concessions have the Republicans (and 2 Democratic Senators) made?

ETA: Lehman Brothers is yet another entirely different matter. They overexposed themselves to underperforming assets and got caught holding the bag when the music stopped (terrible mixed metaphor, but whatevs).
Well, Susan Collins has suggested (Yahoo News) that some in the GOP might be willing to vote to raise the debt limit to help pay for the debts incurred as a result of their own past programs if the Dems are willing to forego their own present and future programs. Yes, their "concession" is that they won't wreck the economy as long as Democrats don't get all uppity and act like they won that last election. That's fair, right?
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Last edited by turingtest; 5th October 2021 at 11:53 AM. Reason: clarify
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Old 5th October 2021, 11:29 AM   #2432
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Trump's Wall was cheaper than Biden's infrastructure plan, but it was also almost completely useless.

On the other hand, the infrastructure plan will have some direct benefits that will be felt all across the U.S.... better roads/bridges, support for new industries, etc.

Given a choice, I think a billion dollars wasted on a useless wall is a bigger problem than a trillion dollars spent for something that might actually be useful.
To delve a little deeper into the wall bit, there's also efficiency of use to consider. Walls already existed at the places on the border where they would be most useful, so the issue of greatly diminishing returns on further investment is already in play there. Also, there are dramatically more efficient alternatives for dealing with the unwalled portion. Surveillance drones, in particular, can do just as useful a job or better for a tiny fraction of the cost, initial and ongoing (and manpower, really). The only possible advantage of a full wall would be as a symbolic deterrent, and there's little to no reason to believe that that would actually help the situation in the first place when there are already plenty of quite serious deterrents in play. On the flip side of that, the focus on the wall completely directed Republican time and resources away from, for example, the already existing official points of entry, where the really overwhelming portion of the issues that they claimed to seek to address with the wall were actually happening.

In short, the wall had nothing to do with good governing and everything to do with being a cynical political strategy.

That's nearly the opposite of Biden's infrastructure plan, which is pretty much all about good governance.
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Last edited by Aridas; 5th October 2021 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 5th October 2021, 11:42 AM   #2433
Fast Eddie B
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
In fact, America could pay off the entire debt any time it wanted it. All it has to do is print the money to do it.
Or just mint a handful of those 1 trillion dollar coins some have been discussing!

https://www.axios.com/trillion-dolla...841d181de.html
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Old 5th October 2021, 11:51 AM   #2434
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Trump didn't have a $2 trillion plan to rebuild infrastructure (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/b...ture-plan.html). His wall, though perhaps absurd, didn't cost 2 trillion dollars (it was cheaper).

Biden, though probably more humane and rational, thinks perhaps he is the "Napoleon of infrastructure".


The only reason the US needs (note, needs, not "wants") a $2 Trillion infrastructure plan now is because of decades of Republicans refusing to allocate any money to infrastructure when they were in charge, and then whining about how the Democrats were "wasting money" any time the Democrats tried to deal with the situation while the Democrats were in power.

At some point, you either pay the ******* money to rebuild some ****, or you just accept that every bridge and dam in the country is going to just fall over.

It's well past the time someone stood up and told the whiners that it's time to spend this money. It will only get even more expensive the longer you wait.
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Old 5th October 2021, 11:52 AM   #2435
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Or just mint a handful of those 1 trillion dollar coins some have been discussing!

https://www.axios.com/trillion-dolla...841d181de.html
Or mint a single Triganic Pu.

The Triganic Pu is a unit of galactic currency, with an exchange rate of eight Ningis to one Pu. This is simple enough, but, since a Ningi is a triangular rubber coin six thousand eight hundred miles along each side, no one has ever collected enough to own one Pu.
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Old 5th October 2021, 11:56 AM   #2436
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
America is not "broke" in any way. In fact, America could pay off the entire debt any time it wanted it. All it has to do is print the money to do it.
This isn't the standard of how to determine if America is "broke". Here is the real standard:

Democrat in the White House = America is "broke".

Republican in White House = don't even mention the debt or deficit....
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Old 5th October 2021, 12:36 PM   #2437
ZiprHead
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
This isn't the standard of how to determine if America is "broke". Here is the real standard:

Democrat in the White House = America is "broke".

Republican in White House = don't even mention the debt or deficit....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude_Wanniski

Quote:
The Two Santa Claus Theory
The Two Santa Claus Theory is a political theory and strategy published by Wanniski in 1976, which he promoted within the United States Republican Party.[15][16] The theory states that in democratic elections, if Democrats appeal to voters by proposing programs to help people, then the Republicans cannot gain broader appeal by proposing less spending. The first "Santa Claus" of the theory title refers to the Democrats who promise programs to help the disadvantaged. The "Two Santa Claus Theory" recommends that the Republicans must assume the role of a second Santa Claus by not arguing to cut spending but offering the option of cutting taxes.[citation needed]

According to Wanniski, the theory is simple. In 1976, he wrote that the Two-Santa Claus Theory suggests that "the Republicans should concentrate on tax-rate reduction. As they succeed in expanding incentives to produce, they will move the economy back to full employment and thereby reduce social pressures for public spending. Just as an increase in Government spending inevitably means taxes must be raised, a cut in tax rates—by expanding the private sector—will diminish the relative size of the public sector."[16] Wanniski suggested this position, as Thom Hartmann has clarified, so that the Democrats would "have to be anti-Santas by raising taxes, or anti-Santas by cutting spending. Either one would lose them elections."[17]
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Old 5th October 2021, 12:55 PM   #2438
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Tax cuts (especially weighted towards the top) do not increase economic activity enough to pay for themselves.

The two most stimulative forms of government expenditure are food stamps and unemployment assistance.

Putting money in the hands of people who have none means immediate purchase of basic necessities. Groceries are purchased, utility bills are paid, etc. Those businesses then pay their workers, replenish supplies, consume services to maintain operations, etc.

Each transaction is taxed some and the government recovers the outlay within a 3-6 month window. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Put $100 in a poor person's hands and it will be cycling through the economy within days. Give a rich person $100, they increase their investment portfolio and expect to extract yet more wealth out of the real economy. How many times have we seen corporations take subsidies meant to spur job growth and instead use it for stock buybacks to prop up their share price and then the board gives itself a big bonus?
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Old 5th October 2021, 12:59 PM   #2439
Fast Eddie B
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Or mint a single Triganic Pu.

The Triganic Pu is a unit of galactic currency, with an exchange rate of eight Ningis to one Pu. This is simple enough, but, since a Ningi is a triangular rubber coin six thousand eight hundred miles along each side, no one has ever collected enough to own one Pu.
Hitchhiker’s Guide?
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Old 5th October 2021, 12:59 PM   #2440
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How many times have we seen corporations take subsidies meant to spur job growth and instead use it for stock buybacks to prop up their share price and then the board gives itself a big bonus?
...And then engage in mass layoffs, on top of that.
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