IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , Biden administration , Biden controversies , joe biden , Kamala Harris

Reply
Old 27th October 2021, 03:57 PM   #2561
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Nobody cared about Afghanistan the last couple decades when no conceivable victory was possible, and I don't see any reason why anybody is going to care now that we've admitted defeat. Ripping off the band-aid early in the term was a good play, by the time elections roll around nobody will give a ****.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...anistan&geo=US
I said this over and over at the time. I think this is the lesson that we should have learned from Trump. The news cycles very fast. There is too much going on for people to notice past maybe a month or two.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2021, 05:51 AM   #2562
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I said this over and over at the time. I think this is the lesson that we should have learned from Trump. The news cycles very fast. There is too much going on for people to notice past maybe a month or two.
It was obvious nobody cared anyway. The war would not have been able to drag on for 20 years with no articulable victory conditions had anyone cared.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2021, 06:55 AM   #2563
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,822
They cared enough to answer polls saying they wanted it to end, so the effect of ending it can only be positive if anything. Looking for that to somehow politically harm the people who ended it is one of the most foolish things you could think in politics right now. Yes, I know it comes from people who tried really hard to turn it into something bad, but that fizzled pretty quickly. The attempted negative rewriting of it is the part that really has nobody caring.

What's really going to make Afghanistan not matter for the next couple of elections, despite the fact that it was a popular move so it could have been used as an electoral positive, is the complete refusal to do anything or even be seen really trying to do anything on domestic issues.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2021, 12:20 PM   #2564
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It was obvious nobody cared anyway. The war would not have been able to drag on for 20 years with no articulable victory conditions had anyone cared.
IMV you're right.

But one particular poster (who I generally respect) insisted I had partisan blinders on and I was whistling past the graveyard.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2021, 06:51 PM   #2565
Tero
Master Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,376
House progressives seem to have postponed the vote to next week. Not surprise. Not sure where Sinema and Manchin stand with latest 1700 page framework/bill.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/polit...ats/index.html
__________________
The republicans are here to save us from government/socialism. Which would like to give us healthcare. But that would make us weak. And generate a lot of old people.

Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 10:51 AM   #2566
Tero
Master Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,376
Polls
CNN:
Gallup noted that the 88-point gap they measured between Republicans' and Democrats' ratings of Biden stands as "among the largest in more than eight decades," trailing only the divide in opinions about Donald Trump. Across all seven polls, Democrats were on average about 75 percentage points likelier than Republicans to say they approve of Biden.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/29/polit...lls/index.html
__________________
The republicans are here to save us from government/socialism. Which would like to give us healthcare. But that would make us weak. And generate a lot of old people.

Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 11:31 AM   #2567
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,923
Originally Posted by Tero View Post
House progressives seem to have postponed the vote to next week. Not surprise. Not sure where Sinema and Manchin stand with latest 1700 page framework/bill.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/28/polit...ats/index.html
House progressives delayed it?

Well, no. Moving both bills simultaneously has been the plan all along. One of the bills isn't ready.

Let's see here. Manchin/Sinema are on the 1.5t team, progressives are on the 6t team. We're at 1.75t and M/S are still kinda wishy-washy. The bill isn't ready because we've been changing it over time so that M/S now have 94.4% of what they want.

But "progressives" are causing this delay?

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 29th October 2021 at 11:35 AM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 11:57 AM   #2568
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
House progressives delayed it?

Well, no. Moving both bills simultaneously has been the plan all along. One of the bills isn't ready.

Let's see here. Manchin/Sinema are on the 1.5t team, progressives are on the 6t team. We're at 1.75t and M/S are still kinda wishy-washy. The bill isn't ready because we've been changing it over time so that M/S now have 94.4% of what they want.

But "progressives" are causing this delay?
The problem is the progressives have no leverage whatsoever. None. It the Dems had a 60/40 split in the Senate Manchin and Sinema would be irrelevant. Lose one vote and it crashes down.

I'm on the progressives side, but there are political realities that they need to face.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 01:03 PM   #2569
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,467
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm on the progressives side, but there are political realities that they need to face.
Sure, but it's not their intransigence holding anything up.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 01:08 PM   #2570
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Sure, but it's not their intransigence holding anything up.
All I know at the moment is that Pelosi called off the vote and the reason from my understanding is because of the progressives who are not happy. Now that may or may not be true.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 02:32 PM   #2571
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 30,085
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
All I know at the moment is that Pelosi called off the vote and the reason from my understanding is because of the progressives who are not happy. Now that may or may not be true.
I suppose it depends on your viewpoint. If a train is derailed by bandits, and after a long argument nothing happens, you may well fault those who decide to get off it and stop trying to get it back on the tracks, but they're not the bandits.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 02:51 PM   #2572
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,923
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem is the progressives have no leverage whatsoever. None. It the Dems had a 60/40 split in the Senate Manchin and Sinema would be irrelevant. Lose one vote and it crashes down.

I'm on the progressives side, but there are political realities that they need to face.
Progressives have no leverage whatsoever...
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
All I know at the moment is that Pelosi called off the vote and the reason from my understanding is because of the progressives who are not happy. Now that may or may not be true.
Pelosi called off the vote because progressives are unhappy...



How do you square that circle?
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 03:08 PM   #2573
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I suppose it depends on your viewpoint. If a train is derailed by bandits, and after a long argument nothing happens, you may well fault those who decide to get off it and stop trying to get it back on the tracks, but they're not the bandits.
That analogy sucks.

What good do the progressives think they are accomplishing? Do they think this will get M&S to change their minds?
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 03:11 PM   #2574
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Progressives have no leverage whatsoever...
Pelosi called off the vote because progressives are unhappy...



How do you square that circle?
Because it won't matter to M or S. Would they prefer that that no bill is passed? M & S seem quite fine with the bill failing.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 03:33 PM   #2575
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 30,085
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That analogy sucks.

What good do the progressives think they are accomplishing? Do they think this will get M&S to change their minds?
I suppose it as a bad analogy,but perhaps the jumping progressives believe that M&S won't change their minds by any other way, if at all, so they might as well let their point of view be known.

Or, maybe (and it's a distinct possibility) they're doing something dumb. It would not be the first time for them or anyone else.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 03:40 PM   #2576
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I suppose it as a bad analogy,but perhaps the jumping progressives believe that M&S won't change their minds by any other way, if at all, so they might as well let their point of view be known.

Or, maybe (and it's a distinct possibility) they're doing something dumb. It would not be the first time for them or anyone else.
I don't know. I consider myself a progressive. But over the last 40 years I think progressives far too often have snatched defeat from the claws of victory. Imagine what would happen if Manchin switched parties and McConnell became the majority leader again.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 04:19 PM   #2577
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,467
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't know. I consider myself a progressive. But over the last 40 years I think progressives far too often have snatched defeat from the claws of victory. Imagine what would happen if Manchin switched parties and McConnell became the majority leader again.
Not having anything happen wouldn't be the Democrats' fault anymore.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 04:23 PM   #2578
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,923
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Because it won't matter to M or S. Would they prefer that that no bill is passed? M & S seem quite fine with the bill failing.
Okay, now please answer my question.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 04:47 PM   #2579
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,822
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem is the progressives have no leverage whatsoever. None.
They have precisely what S&M have: the ability to vote for a bill so it passes or vote against it so it doesn't.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm on the progressives side, but there are political realities that they need to face.
Why are there no "political realities that" S&M "need to face"?

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What good do the progressives think they are accomplishing? Do they think this will get M&S to change their minds?
What good do S&M think they are accomplishing? Do they think this will get progressives to change their minds?

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Would they prefer that that no bill is passed?
What's left of it is about the same as nothing anyway, so ya, why not?

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
M & S seem quite fine with the bill failing.
On that point, we have finally reached a real difference between the two sides: S&M are going out of their way to make it fail, while progressives are merely willing to allow it to fail if S&M manage to damage it badly enough.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 05:21 PM   #2580
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Not having anything happen wouldn't be the Democrats' fault anymore.
I don't care whose fault it is. I want to see the investment in Infrastructure.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 05:25 PM   #2581
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Okay, now please answer my question.
Cause Pelosi saw a problem. You don't call the vote unless you know you can win. So I guess you're technically right. The progressives have the leverage to kill the bill if they want to do that. But that is cutting one's nose off to spite one's face.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 05:45 PM   #2582
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,923
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't care whose fault it is. I want to see the investment in Infrastructure.
When someone disparages one side and is suspiciously silent or blithely accepting of the other, it doesn't come across like not caring about fault.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 29th October 2021 at 05:47 PM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 05:58 PM   #2583
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,356
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
They have precisely what S&M have: the ability to vote for a bill so it passes or vote against it so it doesn't.

Why are there no "political realities that" S&M "need to face"?

What good do S&M think they are accomplishing? Do they think this will get progressives to change their minds?

What's left of it is about the same as nothing anyway, so ya, why not?

On that point, we have finally reached a real difference between the two sides: S&M are going out of their way to make it fail, while progressives are merely willing to allow it to fail if S&M manage to damage it badly enough.
The reason for lack of progressive leverage is their obvious utility function. Any amount of progressive spending is more progressive than the current system, and preferable to not spending it. The argument that not voting for it advances a long term strategy is dubious.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 06:01 PM   #2584
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The reason for lack of progressive leverage is their obvious utility function. Any amount of progressive spending is more progressive than the current system, and preferable to not spending it. The argument that not voting for it advances a long term strategy is dubious.
Wow!

We agree on something.

A half a loaf is better than none at all.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 06:06 PM   #2585
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,356
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Wow!

We agree on something.

A half a loaf is better than none at all.
Now, there probably are philosophical progressives and socialists out there that would have some point where a small number of dollars is worse than zero dollars. There might be a representative or two.....


...not a chance it is a senator.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 07:41 PM   #2586
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,822
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
A half a loaf is better than none at all.
That would be relevant if we were talking about anything analogous to a "half-loaf".
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 07:59 PM   #2587
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
That would be relevant if we were talking about anything analogous to a "half-loaf".
You don't think so? 1.5 or 1.75 Trillion dollars vs nothing?
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 08:52 PM   #2588
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 8,382
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You don't think so? 1.5 or 1.75 Trillion dollars vs nothing?
Have Manchin and Sinema actually properly nailed themselves down with what they'll actually vote for, yet? Or will the bar just keep lowering more and more and more because they refuse to?
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 09:00 PM   #2589
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,332
I really hate these two contrarian trolls.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 09:49 PM   #2590
Random
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,303
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You don't think so? 1.5 or 1.75 Trillion dollars vs nothing?
Progressive House Democrats have a reasonable fear that if they vote and pass the bipartisan bill that Manchin likes, Manchin will insist on gutting the Build Back Better bill until it is useless or worse than useless. Assuming he won't just say, "The Bipartisan bill (with all its fossil fuel industry perks) is good enough, we don't need the BBBA", and refuse to vote for it at all. Manchin could ease these fears by simply having a framework or the BBBA that he says he will vote for, or saying that the Senate will vote for the BBBA before the House votes for the Bipartisan bill. Manchin has refused to do either of these things for months, for no reason he cares to articulate. "I am not going to stab you in the back, I just insist that I be allowed to stand behind you with this very sharp knife and I refuse to tell you why..."

So the House Progressives are holding the Bipartisan bill hostage. By refusing to vote for it until Manchin puts up or shuts up, they can force him to the table at least. And if they are willing to kill the hostage, then that could work out for them in the long run, as people in DC might finally start to take the Progressive caucus seriously, and not as some losers than can be easily pushed around.

No one knows what Kyrsten Sinema is doing, including Kyrsten Sinema...
__________________
"...Am I actually watching Big Bird argue with the Egyptian God of the Dead? Is PBS sending some kind of weird religious message here?"
Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2021, 11:09 PM   #2591
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,822
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You don't think so? 1.5 or 1.75 Trillion dollars vs nothing?
The last budget was 2.3 trillion for a single year, CARES was 2.2, and this new bill we're talking about is spread out over 10 years, making its real value to the budget a tenth of what is claimed if they're compared honestly instead of with that 10x skew built in. (Costs for things that would actually help the American people are always reported on a 10-year projection; costs for stuff the politicians have taken corporate bribes for are reported on either a 1-year projection or a single-instance-never-again basis.) There's going to be a budget for the usual stuff anyway, and this is hardly a blip of a fluctuation from the usual. And it's not going to the people. At best, to the extent that anything would happen at all, it would go to administration & enforcement of the laws & regulations (and it's hard to picture how that can add up to the claimed amount so something's already fishy there anyway)... which, since the new laws & regulations are so skimpy and selective, means it won't affect people's lives significantly (literally none at all for most of us), which was supposed to be the whole point all along.

But, look beyond the dollars, and it's worse than nothing.

For one thing, it's stapled to another bill that already passed the Senate which would be a giveaway to the Senate's corporate masters, privatizing our infrastructure so it can all be managed after the glorious example of the Texas power grid the last time the weather got hot... and the last time it got cold... while charging people extra. The only way out of this combination of the two bills would be to vote against that one first and then for this one, but the HoR is run by a corporatist who won't schedule them in that order for exactly that reason.

Then there's the fact that caving in now would be yet another example of the progressives' pattern of reliably folding on every hand, with or without having bluffed a bit first, only with even more emphasis this time after bluffing slightly longer than usual. The more solidly you establish that just bluffing & folding is who you are, the more you prove to your opponents that you are not to be taken seriously or listened to. They'll just keep running over you because you'll keep letting them and they'll know you will.

Then there's the electoral issue. Remember, the whole point all along was supposed to be to make Americans' lives observably better, and one of the reasons for that was so they'd start to feel that Democrats are the party that makes life better so they'd be more likely to vote for Democrats afterward. Even a bill that does some tiny hypothetical good for some fraction of the populace in some obscure indirect way still feels overall like nothing, as far as general public sentiment is concerned. And passing a bill which throws away the positive effects for the peasants is throwing away votes, which is throwing away the next few elections... especially with Pelosi & Biden/Harris almost certain (if it passes) to try to run the next campaign or two on bragging about what a huge life-altering history-making success it wasn't, thus highlighting their own uselessness-at-best better than a Republican attack ad ever could. That would just look like more of the same old business as usual (because that's what it would be), and the more of that the voters get, the more they give up & drop out. Of course, if passing the mockery of a bill won't make a difference in people's lives, not-passing it won't either, but at least then those who resisted can base a campaign on having resisted those who made the bill so useless in the first place, complete with pointing out that fights like that can succeed if they can just get more like themselves in on it. The line practically writes itself.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You don't call the vote unless you know you can win.
That is what Pelosi thinks. Pelosi is not somebody from whom strategic advice should be taken.

Demonstrating & emphasizing & highlighting, as much as possible, the division within the party right now, is the only way for the party to survive.

Last edited by Delvo; 29th October 2021 at 11:34 PM.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2021, 03:41 AM   #2592
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem is the progressives have no leverage whatsoever. None. It the Dems had a 60/40 split in the Senate Manchin and Sinema would be irrelevant. Lose one vote and it crashes down.

I'm on the progressives side, but there are political realities that they need to face.
The progressives have more leverage than Manchin and Sinema to totally gridlock the Democratic legislative agenda, should they chose to behave in a similar fashion.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th October 2021 at 03:47 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2021, 07:05 AM   #2593
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,467
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Then there's the electoral issue. Remember, the whole point all along was supposed to be to make Americans' lives observably better, and one of the reasons for that was so they'd start to feel that Democrats are the party that makes life better so they'd be more likely to vote for Democrats afterward. Even a bill that does some tiny hypothetical good for some fraction of the populace in some obscure indirect way still feels overall like nothing, as far as general public sentiment is concerned.
And as far as the general public is concerned, the failure to pass legislation of any import is something to hang on the necks of all Democrats. Saying "but but but Manchinema" doesn't mean anything. They're Democrats. Democrats are blocking the Democratic bill because Democrats don't want what's in it. Remember when the GOP finally got a chance to repeal the ACA but didn't because they couldn't all agree on what to replace it with, and that was basically the end of their political momentum?
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2021, 07:23 AM   #2594
Tero
Master Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,376
With all the focus on Sinema and Manchin, if neither bill passes, they will get most of the blame. Progressive Democrats are mostly in states where they are not so vulnerable.

Manchin will want to run at least one more time, for his career and income, so he will come around. Sinema is a totally unpredictable factor at this point. I predict that politics is not her long term career. She will move on to some "big thing" that will be acceptable but not embarrassing and a failure.
__________________
The republicans are here to save us from government/socialism. Which would like to give us healthcare. But that would make us weak. And generate a lot of old people.

Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2021, 08:01 AM   #2595
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,472
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
.....
Remember when the GOP finally got a chance to repeal the ACA but didn't because they couldn't all agree on what to replace it with, and that was basically the end of their political momentum?
Let me just note that the Repubs never had any plan to replace the ACA. Killing it was their sole goal. Eliminating the ACA was never contingent on enacting some replacement plan, and no such plan was ever offered. And you might recall that the Repubs came within one vote of succeeding, until McCain literally thumbed down the bill.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/john-...b0a8a40e83d75b

Last edited by Bob001; 30th October 2021 at 08:44 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2021, 09:12 AM   #2596
Tero
Master Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,376
The GOP plan for healthcare was something like a 4000 tax deduction. Not sure who all were going to get it. No paperwork, no agencies.

It's sort of like a Manchin climate plan. It might be there, it might not. At best we could stop half a climate change. Sometime. Maybe starting in 2050.
__________________
The republicans are here to save us from government/socialism. Which would like to give us healthcare. But that would make us weak. And generate a lot of old people.

Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/

Last edited by Tero; 30th October 2021 at 09:14 AM.
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2021, 09:48 AM   #2597
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,822
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
as far as the general public is concerned, the failure to pass legislation of any import is something to hang on the necks of all Democrats.
Passing a bill of any import is already not an option anymore.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2021, 01:02 PM   #2598
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,607
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Demonstrating & emphasizing & highlighting, as much as possible, the division within the party right now, is the only way for the party to survive.
Political party
Quote:
A political party is an organization that coordinates candidates to compete in a particular country's elections. It is common for the members of a party to hold similar ideas about politics, and parties may promote specific ideological or policy goals.
A 'party' that is constantly divided on policy is a party in name only.

Originally Posted by Tero
With all the focus on Sinema and Manchin, if neither bill passes, they will get most of the blame.
And once again, progressives avoid facing the real reason for their failure. Both Arizona and West Virginia lean conservative, so by rights they should have Republican senators. If you want more progressive policies, you must convince the public to vote for candidates who want them.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2021, 01:19 PM   #2599
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,607
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Then there's the electoral issue. Remember, the whole point all along was supposed to be to make Americans' lives observably better, and one of the reasons for that was so they'd start to feel that Democrats are the party that makes life better so they'd be more likely to vote for Democrats afterward.
I'll vote for any party (or parties) that makes our lives observably better - or even one that only manages to stop it from getting worse - vs one that makes it worse by insisting on holding out for the impossible. Who would want to vote for a party that makes things worse because they won't compromise? That's right, people who don't really care about making lives observably better.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2021, 01:31 PM   #2600
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,629
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I'll vote for any party (or parties) that makes our lives observably better - or even one that only manages to stop it from getting worse - vs one that makes it worse by insisting on holding out for the impossible. Who would want to vote for a party that makes things worse because they won't compromise? That's right, people who don't really care about making lives observably better.
Except the GOP doesn't even try.

I get mad at liberals/progressives that thinking making a statement is better than making our lives even marginally better. Sinema and Manchin are barely Democrats. Sinema voted for Trump's policies 50.4 percent of the time. More than any Democrat. What do the progressives expect. Manchin's WV voted for Trump by more than 20 points.

It is dangerous and stupid to try and put these two Senators feet to the fire when you have no margin of victory.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:23 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.