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Old 18th September 2021, 03:30 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
One thing all CEO's of large companies do know and that is damage limitation to the company's reputation is priority at all costs, so yes, he will have thought carefully before giving out his opinion.
You keep telling me what you infer should have been the case. I'm telling you want Johanson actually said, as quoted in your source. But if you're now willing to concede that CEOs too engage in spin-doctoring, especially when the company's reputation is in peril, then I will also accept your concession on the point that political reporting is somehow magically different.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:31 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
We are aware of the WW2 mines in the Baltic.

1941 was how long ago?

It was not a mine, if it had been a mine it would have been obvious to the crew of the ship when there was a huge explosion that would have burst ear drums, shattered the windows, broke ankles and more than just made some banging sounds and a bit of a lurch.

Forget the ******* mines.
You do know that many of the survivors suffered broken bones and internal injuries? When the Ilmarinen was sunk by a mine it sank very fast. The Estonia sank very fast. The JAIC has never investigated or explained why the Estonia sank very fast. At least Johanson picked up on the fact the Estonia sank extraordinarily fast.

Quote:
The most dramatic event in the early months of the Continuation War was the sinking of the armored ship Ilmarinen. Ilmarinen drove into mines south of Utö on September 13, 1941.
The danger of mine on the renewed route was estimated to be so low that it was ventured without escorts.
On the sides of both armored ships were paravans, their own guard clearers. Their purpose was to prevent destructive explosives from drifting into the sides of ships by directing mines outside them.
After a brisk couple of hours, at about 8.30 pm Ilmarinen was at his turning point. At the time, the other screen had picked up a mine, probably two.
Two consecutive, powerful explosions followed. Ilmarinen quickly leaned to the left and fell to his side in less than a minute, spinning upside down. In seven minutes the ship had sunk.

The mines had hit the bottom of the ship at the engine room. The hull of the ship was compartmentalized, but the engine room was a uniform space. This allowed water to penetrate quickly from the opening torn by the explosion.

“We bravely watched the last moments of the death struggle of our flagship. Once again, Ilmarinen - as if feeling his strength - raised his bow and slowly sank below the water surface as oil and air bubbles rose as a sign of our ship's last resting place, ”Juvonen described.

Ilmarinen took 271 soldiers with him to the abyss, and 132 men survived. Only Sergeant Hugo Kurppa, who was rescued from the engine room, drowned in January 1945 when the minesweeper Louhe sank. Sailor Juvonen was saved for the second time.

https://www.apu.fi/artikkelit/meriso...n-viime-hetkia
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:32 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You keep telling me what you infer should have been the case. I'm telling you want Johanson actually said, as quoted in your source. But if you're now willing to concede that CEOs too engage in spin-doctoring, especially when the company's reputation is in peril, then I will also accept your concession on the point that political reporting is somehow magically different.
And do you likewise concede that Carl Bildt was doing a legerdemain spot of covering his own back when he announced the cause of the accident within sixteen hours of it?
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:33 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the massive hole in the starboard was carefully omitted from mention by the JAIC - as it was - then there is obviously a cover up.

When will you notice the elephant in the room?
When will you notice that the elephant is conjectural?

Where is the evidence that the JAIC "carefully omitted" the hole in question?

Also, whose message is this? You've said repeatedly that you're just reporting. So who reported that the JAIC "carefully omitted from mention" the hole?
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:34 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If something actually happened, it is not a conspiracy theory it is the truth.

The truth cannot be changed, spun, rewritten, revised, reconstructed or renamed. It has the ability to remain the truth.
I ask again: What do you think actually happened?
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:35 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If Meek didn't think his source was reliable he would not have bothered to quote it.
Asked and answered repeatedly. Meek quoted Johanson because Johanson's comments -- whatever they might be -- are newsworthy. The world will want to hear what the head of the responsible company has to say.

Quote:
So in that sense, Meek did indeed believe that the Chief of Estline's opinion was a newsworthy...
Changing horses. Your claim isn't that his statements are newsworthy. Your claim is that they are reliable. Your argument for that is that they wouldn't have been quoted had they not been reliable, and that they were quoted as if coming from a Baltic maritime expert. But that same outcome is also explained by Johanson being the CEO of the responsible company, regardless of his actual knowledge of maritime operations, and that by virtue of his position his statements should be given audience whether or not they have merit.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:35 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is your evidence for these claims?
The Swedes have used SOSUS to track the Soviets for a long time. The enmity between Sweden and Russia goes back a thousand years, if not more.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:36 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And do you likewise concede that Carl Bildt...
Bildt is irrelevant to my argument regarding Johanson.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:36 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why?

Should the rescue coordinators not ask those they rescue what happened?

Don't you think they would want to know what they were dealing with?
As no survivor provided a witness statement saying the bow visor was missing as of 28 Sept 1994, we can assume no-one mentioned it to the rescuers either or it would be sure to be in the JAIC report.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:40 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
You want us to swallow the idea that since the rescued were not immediately interrogated then none of them could or would have said anything at all about what happened.

That is just incredibly stupid.
Of course they will have said something. All survivors were provided with PTSD therapists in the early days and encouraged to talk about the accident to their heart's content (cf. Paul Barney). However, this would be confidential between patient and therapist. All survivors were interviewed by the security police ASAP after arriving at hospital. The crew were interviewed by the JAIC six or seven times over several years.

For a witness statement to have evidentiary value it needs to be properly recorded with date, time, witnesses and signed, preferably in the presence of someone like the police or lawyer.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:41 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
If the Estonia was sunk by an unexploded leftover WWII mine, then why would Carl Bildt make up a story about it being sunk by the bow visor coming off in a storm and letting water in that caused the ship to sink and why would the JAIC then go to the trouble of concocting a fraudulent investigation and report that affirmed that false story?
Because he was advised very early on that the whole thing was a botch up. The Russians warned the UK and Sweden to stop smuggling former Soviet military/space program secrets on the passenger ferry Estonia at least twice. Bildt would have known immediately this was hugely politcal and embarrassing so he did what Clinton and the US government has always done in these situations and that is to label the whole thing 'classified' meaning that anyone asking for information can be refused acknowledgement that there is any information to be had on the grounds of 'national security'. This is disgustingly unfair to the families of the deceased and to the survivors.

Are you claiming that the Russians came up with the brilliant plan of sinking the Estonia by retrieving a WWII mine from the seabed and striking the Estonia with it, and that Bildt made up a story about the bow visor to cover this up?
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:48 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
I ask again: What do you think actually happened?
It is very obvious to me that it was an act of sabotage by person/s unknown who made darn sure the ship would end its journey at (a) Swedish midnight (b) in international waters and (c) it made sure it would sink ASAP with near zero chance of rescuing those on board. It is actually astonishing that 137 escaped, 58 of them crew. Just 79 passengers.


It is also clear the while thing is 'classified' to justify the deception. Of course the authorities knew of the hole in the starboard. The navy divers could not have missed it.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:52 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Are you claiming that the Russians came up with the brilliant plan of sinking the Estonia by retrieving a WWII mine from the seabed and striking the Estonia with it, and that Bildt made up a story about the bow visor to cover this up?
We will have to await the findings of the two new investigations.

I wouldn't rule anything out.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:54 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is very obvious to me that it was an act of sabotage by person/s unknown who made darn sure the ship would end its journey at (a) Swedish midnight (b) in international waters and (c) it made sure it would sink ASAP with near zero chance of rescuing those on board.

Why?

Why is it obvious to you (i.e. what evidence do you base this on), and why would the “person/s unknown” think that it was necessary to sink it at midnight, in international waters, and with maximum loss of life?
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:00 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Of course they will have said something. All survivors were provided with PTSD therapists in the early days and encouraged to talk about the accident to their heart's content (cf. Paul Barney). However, this would be confidential between patient and therapist. All survivors were interviewed by the security police ASAP after arriving at hospital. The crew were interviewed by the JAIC six or seven times over several years.



For a witness statement to have evidentiary value it needs to be properly recorded with date, time, witnesses and signed, preferably in the presence of someone like the police or lawyer.
All irrelevant to the conspiracy you want us to believe.

You want us to believe that Bildt could not have learned that any witness claimed the bow door broke off until after he told the press that this seemed to be what had happened.

So you want us to infer that either Bildt or whoever briefed him already knew the bow door caused the sinking or that they decided to claim it did and presumably divers faked that damage later, any version of which would be a conspiracy.

Well, no. The whole house of cards collapses because there was plenty of time for the rescued to begin telling their rescuers what happened and for that to be reported on.

Bildt *is* irrelevant.
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:00 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is very obvious to me that it was an act of sabotage...
Which of the several kinds of acts of sabotage is it obvious to you happened? Does Prof. Amdahl, for example, believe a sea mine caused the damage to the starboard side? You've told us we have to accept his conclusion because he is well qualified and dispassionate. But you bristle every time we point out any of the several ways in which he could be in error. At the same time, he must be in error if the sea-mine theory that you're now preaching is what's "obvious" happened.

As I wrote weeks ago, the difference between real investigation and conspiracism is that real investigators hope to converge in the direction toward some hypothesis that explains all the evidence. Conspiracy theorist merely run away from the conventional narrative. They have no better idea what actually did happen, or at least none they can articulate without speculation, contradiction, and often foot-stamping.
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:04 PM   #377
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Frankly, relying on the Estonia hitting a WWII mine doesn’t look like a very reliable method of sabotage.
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:06 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I wouldn't rule anything out.
This much is obvious (with the inexplicable exception of the failure of a poorly maintained bow hood).
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:07 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You do know that many of the survivors suffered broken bones and internal injuries? When the Ilmarinen was sunk by a mine it sank very fast. The Estonia sank very fast. The JAIC has never investigated or explained why the Estonia sank very fast. At least Johanson picked up on the fact the Estonia sank extraordinarily fast.
Broken bones and injuries are to be expected.

Why do you think I asked about ankles and ears?

Where is the damage that would indicate a WW2 mine had hit the ship?

Did you see the pictures of mine damage? did you watch the video of a mine blowing up?

there is no damage to the Estonia that indicates any kind of mine damage. there is no testimony that indicates any kind of mine damage.
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:08 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And do you likewise concede that Carl Bildt was doing a legerdemain spot of covering his own back when he announced the cause of the accident within sixteen hours of it?
How was he 'covering his own back'?
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:09 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Broken bones and injuries are to be expected.

Why do you think I asked about ankles and ears?

Where is the damage that would indicate a WW2 mine had hit the ship?

Did you see the pictures of mine damage? did you watch the video of a mine blowing up?

there is no damage to the Estonia that indicates any kind of mine damage. there is no testimony that indicates any kind of mine damage.

“There’s no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact.”
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:09 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Frankly, relying on the Estonia hitting a WWII mine doesn’t look like a very reliable method of sabotage.
True. Hitting an old sea mine definitely is not a "very obvious" act of sabotage, so I infer that means Vixen does not believe that happened.
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:10 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Swedes have used SOSUS to track the Soviets for a long time. The enmity between Sweden and Russia goes back a thousand years, if not more.
That is not evidence that the estonia was being tracked by a submarine.

How do you think SOSUS works?

If they wanted to track the Estonia why not just follow it on radar?

Why would it need tracking? they knew where it was going.

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Old 18th September 2021, 04:11 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
True. Hitting an old sea mine definitely is not a "very obvious" act of sabotage, so I infer that means Vixen does not believe that happened.

What happened to the last however-many-it-was pages?
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:16 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Political news is very different from developing news of a disaster. People know that politicians are skilled spin doctors and thus what they have to say is often carefully scripted to achieve a certain political effect.

Trump was damned by his own words. No comment needed to be added.

Estline's opinion, being the vessel operators, as to the possible cause of the accident is bound to be a carefully weighed consideration of probabilities based on skill and know how.
Sure, Estline"s opinion will weighed, but not by the reporter. For one thing, it's doubtful he's qualified.

Estline's comments were newsworthy. That's all that the publication indicates.

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Old 18th September 2021, 04:17 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The survivors were evacuated to three hospital locations: Mariehamn, which is the capital of the autonomous Åland Islands (it is geographically and politically Finnish because the open sea doesn't start until west this). Turku hospital which is nearby Parainen/Utö, the nearest land to the accident and Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm.


I assume the crew would have had NMT phones or hospital phones to ring their employers.
Waterproof phones?

(ETA: I just saw that I missed the "hospital phones" and focused on the cell phones, so this response wasn't entirely apt. It was still an error to even consider that the crew had working cell phones after the sinking.)
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:19 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Waterproof phones?

Waterproof landlines.
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:33 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Are you able to contribute anything constructive that relates to the title of this thread? Like most people I find 'flame wars' extremely boring, so please try to focus on the thread topic.
If you find flame wars so boring then why have you falsely claimed that your critics have made callous jokes about the victims of the disaster, that your critics want survivors testimony censored and that your critics need Fox News and the Daily Mail to tell them what to think?

You made these claims and refuse to offer evidence to defend them, and when called on it, you accuse me of derailing the thread?
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:45 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is very obvious to me that it was an act of sabotage by person/s unknown.
So you’re going back on your claim that it was likely an accident caused by a collision with a British or Swedish submarine escorting the Estonia?
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:52 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Common sense common knowledge. Were I to say the sky was blue no reference or citation needed. You are just being silly for the sake of it. Please stop it.
It’s “common sense common knowledge” that the crew, after abandoning ship, being rescued, taken to hospital, presumably given dry clothing to replace the wet clothing they were rescued in, having gone 24 hours without sleep, been treated for things like whatever shock, trauma or injuries they suffered, would still have their NMT phones and that still worked and that would choose to phone their employers? Or that they would choose at that traumatic moment to use a hospital phone to phone their employers?

How is that common knowledge or common sense?

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Old 18th September 2021, 05:03 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Broken bones and injuries are to be expected.

Why do you think I asked about ankles and ears?

Where is the damage that would indicate a WW2 mine had hit the ship?

Did you see the pictures of mine damage? did you watch the video of a mine blowing up?

there is no damage to the Estonia that indicates any kind of mine damage. there is no testimony that indicates any kind of mine damage.
What is it about a sea mine that leads to broken ankles? Do you know how that works?

Just curious.
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Old 18th September 2021, 05:11 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the massive hole in the starboard was carefully omitted from mention by the JAIC - as it was - then there is obviously a cover up.

When will you notice the elephant in the room?

When will you realise that the real elephant in the room - wrt your increasingly far-fetched conspiracy theories - is that the original investigators didn't see that "massive hole in the starboard" (the starboard what, for that matter?) because....

.... the ship was lying on the sea bed on its starboard side at the time when the original investigators conducted their survey of the wreck?


And to this end, it's been observed that the pattern of damage to the starboard hull closely correlates to the topography of the sea bed adjacent to the hull - including the presence of an outcrop of bedrock matching (in location and size) the area of most severe damage. Which serves to bolster the hypothesis that initially the ship was resting on its starboard side, and only subsequently shifted its position* such that a) the starboard hull damage was now visible and b) the sea bed topography that likely caused that damage was also now visible.


* probably owing to strong currents, coupled with the indication that this initial resting point was something of an unstable equilibrium (owing to the topography of the sea bed where the Estonia very probably first came to rest).
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Old 18th September 2021, 05:29 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The survivors were evacuated to three hospital locations: Mariehamn, which is the capital of the autonomous Åland Islands (it is geographically and politically Finnish because the open sea doesn't start until west this). Turku hospital which is nearby Parainen/Utö, the nearest land to the accident and Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm.


I assume the crew would have had NMT phones or hospital phones to ring their employers.

Well if you're assuming this, it's strange that you still appear not to believe in the (very real) possibility that these crewmembers' employers asked them if they'd seen anything which might explain how & why the ship sank.

And that at least some of these crewmembers very probably saw - either while abandoning ship or once they were in a life raft/boat - that the bow visor was entirely missing and the bow ramp was so badly damaged that sea water could easily enter the vehicle deck at a rapid rate.

And that these crewmembers might very easily have understood enough about the catastrophic effect of flooding the ship's interior - especially the wide-open vehicle deck - that they would quickly & easily be able to understand that the missing bow visor and the damaged bow ramp were responsible (especially when coupled with the very choppy sea and the fact that the ship remained at high speed until after it was too late) for the sinking of the Estonia.


(And, in passing, one would never talk of "NMT phones" in this context. As I explained before, NMT was simply a standard for early analogue mobile phones. To talk of an "NMT phone" would be akin to talking about an "LTE-A phone" nowadays (LTE-A is one of the global standards for 4G mobile telephony). In 1994 they would simply have talked of "using a mobile phone (or cellphone)". Just as nowadays we simply talk of "using a mobile phone (or cellphone)")
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Old 18th September 2021, 05:40 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There has not been an accident like it before or since

Very true. And one would think that this alone would have given you pause for thought wrt leftover mines. But clearly not.



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unless you count the ships sunk by torpedo during the wars.

Nope, irrelevant in this context. As has been explained to you many, many times by now: all the sea lanes (and anywhere near those sea lanes) were cleared of mines and other military ordnance decades ago. It's the reason why no ships - including the Estonia - have encountered a mine explosion in the seven-and-a-half decades since the end of WWII.



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It is nothing like the Herald of Free Enterprise, which did not have a bow visor and was simply due to the boatswain not putting up the car ramp.

It's everything like the HOFE disaster. The architecture of the vehicle ingress/egress mechanisms might have been different, but the generalised cause & effect was near-identical: the critically-vulnerable vehicle access portals were fatally compromised, causing seawater to rush into the wide open vehicle deck, causing stability and buoyancy problems that quickly became impossible to overcome, causing the ship to list then sink.
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Old 18th September 2021, 05:48 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look I know or have known quite a few respected journalists, one who writes for the Independent these days, another writes articles, another two are famed cartoonists. Sometimes it is just easier to write 'hack' than journalist. Whether it is derogatory or not depends on context. If I were to say 'some old hack at the SUN' that is very different in tone than, 'he works as a GUARDIAN hack'.

I note you are again judging others by your own standards. You think nothing of besmirching and hurling abuse, and when challenged about your scurrilous and disgraceful insults, your Modus Operandi is to deny you ever aimed any low blow.

No. In the UK - as in the US - the term "hack" is virtually never used as either a) a generalised means of referring to newspaper reporters or (especially) b) a term of endearment or support towards a newspaper reporter. Sometimes journalists use the term amongst themselves in a deliberately self-deprecating and ironic manner, but the default way of interpreting/parsing a sentence such as "Alex is a hack" - as spoken to me by Jim - is to infer that Jim has a low opinion of Alex's journalistic credibility/insight.
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Old 18th September 2021, 05:50 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Carl Bildt was obviously briefed by his intelligence agents. On the noght in question, he was at a farewell party having lost the election when he was called away not long after one in the morning, as witnessed by the guests in the hotel/restaurant and briefed in his shell-like. The Finnish PM, Aho and the Estonian PM Laar didn't find out until a phone call in the middle of the night, which they were both able to remember clearly and from whom. When Bildt was asked the same question, he claimed he couldn't remember.

It is so obvious the Swedish - or affiliated intelligence agencies - knew about the accident as soon as it happen because...hello? they were tracking the vessel, whether by submarine or by SOSUS.

This is all nothing but hysterical - and totally unsubstantiated - conjecture, I'm afraid.
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Old 18th September 2021, 05:58 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If something actually happened, it is not a conspiracy theory it is the truth.

The truth cannot be changed, spun, rewritten, revised, reconstructed or renamed. It has the ability to remain the truth.

This is horrible circular reasoning. One could apply your rule, for example, to those 9/11 "Truthers" who believe the Twin Towers were brought down from within by Thermite: they could (and do) "reason" that their Thermite theory actually happened ("Just look at the footage which clearly shows cascading explosions as the towers fall!"), and must not therefore be labelled a conspiracy theory.

Perhaps this will serve to illustrate the logical failure of your approach on this matter. But perhaps not.
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Old 18th September 2021, 06:05 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is very obvious to me that it was an act of sabotage by person/s unknown who made darn sure the ship would end its journey at (a) Swedish midnight (b) in international waters and (c) it made sure it would sink ASAP with near zero chance of rescuing those on board. It is actually astonishing that 137 escaped, 58 of them crew. Just 79 passengers.


It is also clear the while thing is 'classified' to justify the deception. Of course the authorities knew of the hole in the starboard. The navy divers could not have missed it.

Hoo boy.

(I suppose at least you're finally putting your own cards on the table, rather than pretending that all you're doing is putting forth others' opinions for discussion....)
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Old 18th September 2021, 06:58 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
What is it about a sea mine that leads to broken ankles? Do you know how that works?

Just curious.
he shock of the explosion through the hull.

If you are standing on a steel deck close enough to the explosion the shock through the hull can break ankles, it was noticed in WW1.

On Minesweepers there used to be rubber mats to stand on to cushion the shock wave through the deck of any mine that might detonate close to the ship.

Ear damage is obvious, close proximity to a large explosion will do damage to ears on deck or below.
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Old 18th September 2021, 07:28 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
he shock of the explosion through the hull.

If you are standing on a steel deck close enough to the explosion the shock through the hull can break ankles, it was noticed in WW1.

On Minesweepers there used to be rubber mats to stand on to cushion the shock wave through the deck of any mine that might detonate close to the ship.

Ear damage is obvious, close proximity to a large explosion will do damage to ears on deck or below.
Thanks.

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