IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Closed Thread
Old 15th September 2021, 05:14 PM   #81
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,649
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
The Estonia's EPIRB buoys were of the type that had to be activated manually. Regulations were subsequently written requiring ships to keep a type that automatically deploy if a ship sinks.
EPIRB buoys have always been able to activate automatically when deployed by hydrostatic pressure, usually around 4 meters is needed to avoid rain or spray activating them.
The holders are designed to deploy the buoys when they are 4 meters below the surface.
If they deployed before the activation depth they would not work and if they failed to deploy the signal would not be picked up if they sank with the ship.

Class A had automatic and manual activation, Class B was manual only.

Current types are referred to as Class 1 and Class 2 as the operating frequency has changed so the designation was changed to avoid confusion.

There was no requirement at the time of the Estonia sinking for ferries to carry automatic buoys though.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 15th September 2021 at 05:30 PM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 05:16 PM   #82
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,649
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You seemed to be claiming that whilst it was perfectly normal for a ship to sink by bow visor, a mine OTOH would be most unusual.

Are you sure you have your sense of probabilities in perspective?
When and where was the last time a passenger ship was sunk by a mine?

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 15th September 2021 at 05:19 PM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 07:14 PM   #83
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,052
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am guessing one of those hand-held jobs that are really landline phones recharged to be carried around. This was 1994, remember!!!
Um....

So they dragged a long cord behind them?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 07:17 PM   #84
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,997
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Um....

So they dragged a long cord behind them?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
The Great Eastern did.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 07:49 PM   #85
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,052
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The Great Eastern did.
I suppose I learned something from looking it up on WP.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 07:59 PM   #86
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,052
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
To be fair to London John, I don't think any shops have been lost to mine in that region since, so perhaps the odds were slim.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not all car ferries have bow visors. So wow, a double whammy with both the visor and the car ramp falling off/open. All thanks to a few strong waves. Who knew the Baltic was such a raging leviathan.
What an odd reply to my message.

Before I get to your reply, let me point out the weakness of my own argument. I should have looked at the percentage of sinkings in that shipping lane which were caused by an old mine over a period of several decades. Perhaps, to give you all benefits due, I could have restricted myself to "fast" sinkings, from, say, 1960 to 1994. I don't know how many such incidents there would be in a 34 year span -- literally have no idea -- and if there are too few, then the whole approach isn't really reliable.

Now, to your reply. No matter the cause, we know that the Estonia had a bow visor/hood. I don't know what point you're trying to make when you say that not all ferries have such. We're talking about a particular ferry that sank and that did have a hood. So I don't see where the coincidence comes in (especially since the dominant theory involves the failure of the hood).

As far as your comments about the storm, according to Wikipedia, it was Force 7-8 with significant wave height of 4 to 6m. I mean, it's just a fact that this was how bad the storm was. Are you doubting the reported strength of the winds? Or do you doubt that such a storm could cause significant damage to a bow hood? What is your point?
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 08:03 PM   #87
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,622
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
NMT then was a very niche product. Hummel was likely referring to the common or garden phone networks.

https://www.soluno.se/en/nmt-mobile-telephony/


IOW you would not expect a ship in distress to have to use an NMT in 1994 but it seems Tammes was also using some hand held phone as well.

Ah good. Yet more ignorance.

NMT is simply a mobile (cellular) phone standard. It covers the way in which the call is transmitted/received. It was one of several first-generation (1G) analogue standards - the UK, for example, used a 1G standard named TACS, and the US used one named AMPS.

And in fact, 1G mobile phone network/usage was very far from a "very niche product" in the Nordic countries by 1994. The first 1G phone call was made back in the late 70s, and the Nordic region was actually a world leader in 1G adoption.

One cannot talk of "us(ing) an NMT" - in just the same way as one doesn't talk of "using an NTSC" or "using a PAL" to refer to watching TV broadcasts (NTSC and PAL are television broadcast standards).

So in other words, all that happened in the Estonia incident is that someone placed a mobile phone (cellphone) call, using a (large, by modern standards) mobile phone - the ship was obviously within range of an onshore cellphone mast somewhere near the coastline.


ETA: And as others have already explained to you, it's nonsense to suggest that this was a "common or garden" (by which I assume you mean "landline") call, using a cordless phone such as people use within their homes. You obviously don't realise that when people use cordless phones in their homes, all it means is that the phone in the person's hand connects to a short-range base station that's also within their home, which in turn is connected to the physical phone line which runs into their home from their local telephone exchange/substation. It would literally have been impossible for this to be the case abord any ship - for reasons which ought (to anyone with even an iota of knowledge & understanding....) to be clear.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 15th September 2021 at 08:10 PM.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 08:16 PM   #88
whoanellie
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can say that but reputable reporter James Meek in Tallinn and Greg Mcivor in Stockholm reported in the GUARDIAN , 3 October 1994: 'Mine Could Have Sunk Ferry Claim'.
Do you have a link to the article? Thank you in advance.
whoanellie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 08:30 PM   #89
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,997
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can say that but reputable reporter James Meek in Tallinn and Greg Mcivor in Stockholm reported in the GUARDIAN , 3 October 1994: 'Mine Could Have Sunk Ferry Claim'.
Did you actually read this article? Or did you just copy the reference from Drew Wilson's self-published nonsense?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 08:37 PM   #90
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,622
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Citation please for your claim about Estonia's EPIRB buoys. These buoys are always 'switched on' as it were, so that should they touch the surface of the sea, their GPS signal is activated. There is no reason to 'switch them off' and a manual 'switching on' in distress is not necessary as they are designed to activate themselves.

Yet again, you're making incorrect pronouncements on something you very clearly know little or nothing about.

If you'd stopped for even a few seconds to think about what you'd written here, you might have realised the fundamental & fatal flaw in your claim. It's a one-word flaw: batteries.

See, the beacons on these buoys ("boo-wees" to Americans ) don't power themselves by magic. And EPIRB buoys are not solar-powered - for several good reasons. So they have charged batteries within them, ready to supply power to the beacons when required.

If these beacons were "always switched on", as you claim, the batteries would have run down and died within days of renewal. Which is precisely why they are not always switched on. And it's why they're only ever switched on if/when they're actually needed - ie when the ship is sinking.

Now, in 1994 there were two ways in which the buoys could be switched on if the ship was sinking: either a) they could be manually switched on by a crew member, or b) they could be fitted with a sensor which was capable of detecting immersion of the buoy in water (something which would only occur if the buoy was deployed by a sinking ship). But here's the thing: in 1994 these buoys with immersion sensors were a costly upgrade for those ships which had already been fitted with manual-activation buoys.

These immersion sensors were not mandatory in 1994. So, as (presumably) a cost-saving measure, the Estonia's owners chose not to install buoys with immersion sensors. Which meant, by definition, that the EPIRB buoys that were on the Estonia needed to be manually switched on by a crew member once they realised that the ship was going down.

And it's exactly this which prompted a change in regulations to make immersion sensors mandatory: the Estonia sinking showed that manually-switched-on EPIRB beacons were a liability - their obvious shortcomings could significantly hamper attempts to identify the sinking ship's position and optimise search & rescue efforts.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 15th September 2021 at 08:44 PM.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 08:59 PM   #91
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 5,743
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do pay attention. We were talking about communications interference on the night of the accident.
Helps for lay-people to skip to the end of accident reports heavy in technical explanations.

Getting hung up on communications is tricky because while Estonia couldn't reach shore-based radios she could talk to the other ship nearby...something that couldn't happen if the Russians, Royal Navy, or US Navy were jamming radios.

All that matters is the hood got knocked loose and fell off in heavy seas while te crew twiddled their thumbs.

Oh, and the the Estonia was a Ro-Go ferry, the USS Cole was a US Navy destroyer. It's like comparing apples to a warship.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 11:15 PM   #92
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 34,809
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can say that but reputable reporter James Meek in Tallinn and Greg Mcivor in Stockholm reported in the GUARDIAN , 3 October 1994: 'Mine Could Have Sunk Ferry Claim'.

If the headline you have quoted is accurate, they seem to have reported that someone had claimed that it could have been sunk by a mine.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 11:23 PM   #93
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
If the headline you have quoted is accurate, they seem to have reported that someone had claimed that it could have been sunk by a mine.
That's a very big "If". Funny that a Google for that exact quoted phrase returns no match...
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 01:10 AM   #94
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 34,809
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
That's a very big "If". Funny that a Google for that exact quoted phrase returns no match...

If I drop the word “claim” and search for the phrase “Mine Could Have Sunk Ferry” it finds something, apparently in a footnote to something called “AUK”.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 01:27 AM   #95
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,039
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
If I drop the word “claim” and search for the phrase “Mine Could Have Sunk Ferry” it finds something, apparently in a footnote to something called “AUK”.
That's a PDF of a book, published in 2006.

If the Google translate is correct it is written by Drew Wilson in order to prove: 'This book is based on a simple assumption: the hull of Estonia was broken below the waterline, causing a rapid sinking to the bottom of the Baltic Sea. Estonia is looking for an hole.'
(quote from page 8 of the PDF and translated from Estonian to English using Google Translate).
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 01:32 AM   #96
junkshop
Critical Thinker
 
junkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Under the bed. Whose bed, you ask? That would be telling...sleep tight.
Posts: 461
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
If I drop the word “claim” and search for the phrase “Mine Could Have Sunk Ferry” it finds something, apparently in a footnote to something called “AUK”.
I got that result, too. I can't get the PDF that it's a link to to download or open, but the phrase in the google preview bit seems familiar:

Quote:
James Meek, Tallinn and Greg Mcivor, Stockholm, “Mine Could Have Sunk Ferry. Claim“

The Guardian's archive isn't freely accessible online that far back, so stymied any chance of searching that by date and author.
__________________
Not a Cockney.

Last edited by junkshop; 16th September 2021 at 01:36 AM. Reason: Hit post too soon
junkshop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 01:46 AM   #97
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,039
Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I got that result, too. I can't get the PDF that it's a link to to download or open, but the phrase in the google preview bit seems familiar:




The Guardian's archive isn't freely accessible online that far back, so stymied any chance of searching that by date and author.
If you search the PDF for 'Meek' you will find the phrase. It's a source reference (nr 65 in chapter 5 'alternative explanations') and belongs to this paragraph.

'Finnish vessels detected the location of the sunken ferry on 30 September at a depth of about 80 meters. The ship was almost upside down. The Finns scanned the wreck from the side with a sonar, the images were shown at a press conference. Reporters reported that the sonar images showed a large object on the seabed 9 to 18 meters from the bow of the wreck. No one knew what it was.65'

It is well possible the original text by Meek, suggests a hit from a mine would be a possibility (and knowing little else at that moment, it could be construed as a reasonable possibility). Yet it is clear that by the time this book was written by Wilson, he did not use the mine option of Meek's text, but something else from it. Unfortunately we don't have the original Meek text as of now.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 02:24 AM   #98
junkshop
Critical Thinker
 
junkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Under the bed. Whose bed, you ask? That would be telling...sleep tight.
Posts: 461
Thank you, erwinl. My tablet seems to be refusing to download PDFs today.
__________________
Not a Cockney.
junkshop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 03:19 AM   #99
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,649
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
What an odd reply to my message.

Before I get to your reply, let me point out the weakness of my own argument. I should have looked at the percentage of sinkings in that shipping lane which were caused by an old mine over a period of several decades. Perhaps, to give you all benefits due, I could have restricted myself to "fast" sinkings, from, say, 1960 to 1994. I don't know how many such incidents there would be in a 34 year span -- literally have no idea -- and if there are too few, then the whole approach isn't really reliable.

Now, to your reply. No matter the cause, we know that the Estonia had a bow visor/hood. I don't know what point you're trying to make when you say that not all ferries have such. We're talking about a particular ferry that sank and that did have a hood. So I don't see where the coincidence comes in (especially since the dominant theory involves the failure of the hood).

As far as your comments about the storm, according to Wikipedia, it was Force 7-8 with significant wave height of 4 to 6m. I mean, it's just a fact that this was how bad the storm was. Are you doubting the reported strength of the winds? Or do you doubt that such a storm could cause significant damage to a bow hood? What is your point?
Don't forget it was not just a 'a few strong waves' but over a decade of strong waves and the bow visor was already known to have faults.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 04:29 AM   #100
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,077
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You seemed to be claiming that whilst it was perfectly normal for a ship to sink by bow visor, a mine OTOH would be most unusual.
No I didn't. I seemed to be claiming that the Estonia's bow visor is something known to exist.

Live mines in Baltic shipping lanes is not something known to exist.

Therefore, any claim that hinges on the existence of the bow visor is automatically better than any claim that hinges on the existence of a sea mine.

"Normal" is your word, not mine, and has no place in my claim.

Quote:
Are you sure you have your sense of probabilities in perspective?
Quite sure. But this isn't a question of probabilities. It's a question of the superiority of claims about things we know exist over claims about things we don't know exist.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 05:13 AM   #101
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,649
NATO clearing naval mines in the Baltic

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 16th September 2021 at 05:14 AM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 05:54 AM   #102
MarkCorrigan
Winter is Coming
 
MarkCorrigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,503
Vixen, are you claiming to be an expert in the workings of the KGB?

Are you still claiming that your interlocutors have made callous jokes at the expense of the dead?

Two very easy questions and yet you keep refusing to answer.
__________________
Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data.
It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz

When I give food to the poor they call me a saint, when I ask why the poor have no food they call me a communist - Hélder Câmara
MarkCorrigan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 06:23 AM   #103
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,997
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
It is well possible the original text by Meek, suggests a hit from a mine would be a possibility (and knowing little else at that moment, it could be construed as a reasonable possibility). Yet it is clear that by the time this book was written by Wilson, he did not use the mine option of Meek's text, but something else from it. Unfortunately we don't have the original Meek text as of now.
And it appears Vixen doesn't have access to the text of the original Guardian article either. She can't answer elementary questions about what it says or who is the source of the claim the purported headline alludes to. She just assumes the claim is well founded.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 06:28 AM   #104
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,039
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
And it appears Vixen doesn't have access to the text of the original Guardian article either. She can't answer elementary questions about what it says or who is the source of the claim the purported headline alludes to. She just assumes the claim is well founded.
I had surmised this.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 06:32 AM   #105
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,997
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
That's a PDF of a book, published in 2006.

If the Google translate is correct it is written by Drew Wilson in order to prove: 'This book is based on a simple assumption: the hull of Estonia was broken below the waterline, causing a rapid sinking to the bottom of the Baltic Sea. Estonia is looking for an hole.'
(quote from page 8 of the PDF and translated from Estonian to English using Google Translate).
If anyone wants to order the English version: https://www.amazon.com/Hole-Another-.../dp/1492778362. Wilson is a journalist specializing in business analytics. He has no qualifications in shipping, shipbuilding, or forensic engineering. But Wilson's claims are not at issue here. He doesn't quote Meek in order to establish that a mine sank the ship. It's merely hinted at in the story title Wilson cites to for other reasons. Without Meek's text, there is no basis to believe that the claims of a sea mine were made by credible people who provided evidence of it. It may just have been a story that was making the rounds, much as today's headlines report alleged reproductive effects of the COVID vaccine. That such rumors and claims rise to the level of newsworthiness does not mean they are well founded.

Last edited by JayUtah; 16th September 2021 at 08:03 AM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 09:03 AM   #106
whoanellie
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
And it appears Vixen doesn't have access to the text of the original Guardian article either. She can't answer elementary questions about what it says or who is the source of the claim the purported headline alludes to. She just assumes the claim is well founded.
Here is the relevant text from the article - which does in fact exist

Quote:
Byline: JAMES MEEK in Tallinn and GREG MCIVOR in Stockholm

A WARTIME mine could have triggered the catastrophic sequence of events which led to the sinking of the ferry Estonia, the head of the company which operated the vessel claimed yesterday.

Johannes Johanson, the managing director of the firm, Estline, said he could not believe the power of the sea combined with technical weaknesses would have been enough to let water into the boat.

'We know that there were very big minefields in this region around Yuto, during the second world war,' he said.

'It's my personal opinion that it could have been something like that. It's very difficult to explain why this kind of big passenger ferry went down in such a short time.'
whoanellie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 09:08 AM   #107
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 20,997
Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Here is the relevant text from the article - which does in fact exist
Thank you for finding it. So the context appears to be speculation by the head of the company that operated MS Estonia, and who therefore can have no ulterior motive for suggesting causes other than the condition of the vessel and the proficiency of the crew.

Last edited by JayUtah; 16th September 2021 at 10:19 AM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 09:33 AM   #108
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,052
Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Here is the relevant text from the article - which does in fact exist
Excellent job.

How did you find it? Library archive?
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 09:35 AM   #109
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,622
Yup. No vested interests there at all, noesurree.

(Just like the yard which designed and built the ship having zero vested interest in claiming that the cause of the sinking was nothing whatsoever to do with the design or construction of the ship...)
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 09:55 AM   #110
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,077
Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Here is the relevant text from the article - which does in fact exist
What's more likely? That a consistent pattern of poor maintenance and poor training at my firm eventually led to a maritime disaster for one of my ships? Or that a leftover mine, in a shipping lane plied by thousands of ships every year, somehow managed to remain untriggered for decades until one of my ships stumbled across it? I think the answer is clear, don't you?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 10:22 AM   #111
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,649
A ww2 mine going off would have been more than some 'banging' and a bit of a lurch.

German mines of WW2 had charges of between 400 and 700 lb of an explosive called SW36 composed of 50% TNT, 8% hexanitrodiphenylamine (HND) and 25% aluminium powder.

Look at the video I linked earlier, that is the 'bang' to expect.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 10:22 AM   #112
Reformed Offlian
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 655
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post

And in fact, 1G mobile phone network/usage was very far from a "very niche product" in the Nordic countries by 1994. The first 1G phone call was made back in the late 70s, and the Nordic region was actually a world leader in 1G adoption.
Yeah, but I bet there weren't any *Finnish* companies back then who were at the forefront of mobile phone technolgy. [/sarcasm]
Reformed Offlian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 10:49 AM   #113
whoanellie
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Excellent job.

How did you find it? Library archive?
Lexis Nexis search which I have free access to.
whoanellie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 11:16 AM   #114
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Do you have a link to the article? Thank you in advance.
No, fraid not. It is hard to find newspaper articles that go back that far on the internet. However, should be available in newspaper libraries. Just plug in the headline, date and newspaper and it should be available on microfiche. I am no longer in London so shan't get the chance to use my BL membership card.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 11:17 AM   #115
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Did you actually read this article? Or did you just copy the reference from Drew Wilson's self-published nonsense?
Yes, Drew Wilson was the source. Very good read.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 11:17 AM   #116
whoanellie
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, fraid not. It is hard to find newspaper articles that go back that far on the internet. However, should be available in newspaper libraries. Just plug in the headline, date and newspaper and it should be available on microfiche. I am no longer in London so shan't get the chance to use my BL membership card.
Do you realize I found it for you?
whoanellie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 11:22 AM   #117
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Helps for lay-people to skip to the end of accident reports heavy in technical explanations.

Getting hung up on communications is tricky because while Estonia couldn't reach shore-based radios she could talk to the other ship nearby...something that couldn't happen if the Russians, Royal Navy, or US Navy were jamming radios.

All that matters is the hood got knocked loose and fell off in heavy seas while te crew twiddled their thumbs.

Oh, and the the Estonia was a Ro-Go ferry, the USS Cole was a US Navy destroyer. It's like comparing apples to a warship.
There was a huge NATO exercise at the time. How come not one of those vessels/aircraft overheard the May Day distress signals?

Whilst the crew were pretty hapless, it can't really be blamed on them as there would be no way to evacuate 1,000 within the ten minute time line they had, with about 80% tucked up asleep in their cabins across seven or eight decks. How can a few strong waves twist wrought iron/steel bolts and even if they did, the bow visor was not a plug, so even it did fall off that shouldn't have caused the ship to sink.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 11:27 AM   #118
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Don't forget it was not just a 'a few strong waves' but over a decade of strong waves and the bow visor was already known to have faults.
It was certified seaworthy. According to the JAIC report it was seaworthy, evne though the APIRB buous were switched off, the life rafts still had 'Viking Sally' written on them - indicating sheer age - and many of the provisions included in the life rafts were missing. The life jackets had straps that were impossible for an adult to clasp together under the legs/crutch, hence they kept riding up over people's head, yet the vessel was deemed 'seaworthy'.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 11:32 AM   #119
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,828
Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Here is the relevant text from the article - which does in fact exist
Oh wow. Well done!
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th September 2021, 11:33 AM   #120
junkshop
Critical Thinker
 
junkshop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Under the bed. Whose bed, you ask? That would be telling...sleep tight.
Posts: 461
Vixen, you're just repeating yourself now.
__________________
Not a Cockney.
junkshop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.