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Old 12th October 2021, 06:46 PM   #3241
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
1. They have not accounted for all the inner hatches of the car deck being sealed.

2. Sealed and closed are two different things.

3. Nobody can say when these doors were closed. This will take a dive team physically opening the door to see if they'd been dogged from the other side.

The visor WAS the cause of the sinking.



I'm no expert but I think large ships are designed to keep water out.



Has nothing to do with Estonia's sinking whatsoever. Please stop.



It was listing to the starboard side as soon as she left port. I think they would have noticed any holes in the hull.

And like the hatches, nobody can officially state when those holes were made in the hull, but unofficially there are no reports of a hull breach on the night of the disaster. None, zero, nada.



Weird, almost as if there are strong currents at that depth combined with the fact the wreck lies on a slope. Makes a sane person wonder what that kind of combined stress from gravity, salt water exposure, strong currents, water pressure, and the passage of 27 years has placed on the hull of the wreck, and what the resulting damage might be...*strokes chin*...
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Old 12th October 2021, 07:01 PM   #3242
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
1. They have not accounted for all the inner hatches of the car deck being sealed.

2. Sealed and closed are two different things.

3. Nobody can say when these doors were closed. This will take a dive team physically opening the door to see if they'd been dogged from the other side.

The visor WAS the cause of the sinking.



I'm no expert but I think large ships are designed to keep water out.



Has nothing to do with Estonia's sinking whatsoever. Please stop.



It was listing to the starboard side as soon as she left port. I think they would have noticed any holes in the hull.

And like the hatches, nobody can officially state when those holes were made in the hull, but unofficially there are no reports of a hull breach on the night of the disaster. None, zero, nada.



Weird, almost as if there are strong currents at that depth combined with the fact the wreck lies on a slope. Makes a sane person wonder what that kind of combined stress from gravity, salt water exposure, strong currents, water pressure, and the passage of 27 years has placed on the hull of the wreck, and what the resulting damage might be...*strokes chin*...
The doors don't mean anything, the main flooding route would be the air intakes for the engines, generators, ventilation of the machinery spaces and the air conditioning plant.
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Old 12th October 2021, 11:10 PM   #3243
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I actually reached down my copy of Elementz of Materials Science & Engineering, flipped through the sections on multiphase materials then put it back. First time I opened it since I guess 1985.

Holy crap, Jack by the hedge, just looked over at my reference library, I’ve got that. I knew it sounded familiar but it has just been so long. Elements of Materials science & Engineering; Van Vlack, Fourth Edition November 1980 third printing. Copyrights go back to 1959. Chapter 9 Mulitphase Materials: Equailibria. In 9-2 Phase Diagrams (equilibrium diagrams) page 359 shows the transition from just ferrite (iron) to 75% austenite at 728 C or 1342 F. Chapter 10 is Mulitphase Materials: Microstructures. Wow, it has just been so long, I've been out of mechanical engineering for almost 20 years now. Nice to know that some of the old brain cells still fire up.
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Old 12th October 2021, 11:45 PM   #3244
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Your stance is textbook denial.
What engineering text book is that?
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Old 13th October 2021, 01:51 AM   #3245
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You said you hated yourself for watching the Fokus Group presentation. I commented maybe you hated the idea of loved ones interested in finding out what happened.

Note the word 'maybe'.
And importantly also note the lack of the word "idea".

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Maybe you really hate the survivors families as these are the people looking for the answers. Why would you mock their need to know?
So, no, you didn't suggest junkshop hated the idea of anything. You suggested they hated the families. That is what you wrote.
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Old 13th October 2021, 01:53 AM   #3246
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Holy crap, Jack by the hedge, just looked over at my reference library, I’ve got that. I knew it sounded familiar but it has just been so long. Elements of Materials science & Engineering; Van Vlack, Fourth Edition November 1980 third printing. Copyrights go back to 1959. Chapter 9 Mulitphase Materials: Equailibria. In 9-2 Phase Diagrams (equilibrium diagrams) page 359 shows the transition from just ferrite (iron) to 75% austenite at 728 C or 1342 F. Chapter 10 is Mulitphase Materials: Microstructures. Wow, it has just been so long, I've been out of mechanical engineering for almost 20 years now. Nice to know that some of the old brain cells still fire up.
4th edition. Small world, eh? Wish I could say it's well-thumbed but alas it's pristine.
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Old 13th October 2021, 06:02 AM   #3247
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The doors don't mean anything, the main flooding route would be the air intakes for the engines, generators, ventilation of the machinery spaces and the air conditioning plant.

I love how Vixen believes - still - that there's a functional equivalence between a) a ship's hull being built to keep water out, and b) a ship's hull being a hermetically-sealed chamber of air (much like, say, a blown-up and tied-off balloon).

And come to think of it, Vixen really ought to know a little about Viking seafarers. If she does, then perhaps she might mull over the fact that pretty much all Viking longships had open decks. Their hulls were built to keep out the sea, sure - but if there was a storm and waves managed to breach the freeboard of the ship, that water was going to pool and collect down by the keel. And if a sufficient mass of water collected there, the ship would sink.
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Old 13th October 2021, 06:10 AM   #3248
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Maybe you really hate the survivors families as these are the people looking for the answers.
Don't you care about the families of those who died?
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Old 13th October 2021, 09:47 AM   #3249
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
How many leaders of the Fokus group have training and experience in forensic engineering?





Do you know why Kent Horstedt went into politics?



Not all the ways in which the world can be changed would be considered strictly honest. Not all claims to want to improve the world are strictly altruistic. How closely have you scrutinized the apparent motives of the Fokus group?
The are a quite a few engineers and naval architects involved. Your faith in the status quo is touching.
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Old 13th October 2021, 09:50 AM   #3250
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
OK, leaving aside for now your apparent inability to recognise a joke, and your 'novel' views on who is or isn't a Cockney, your 'maybe' is undermined by your follow-up question that assumes a definitive positive. Therefore my request stands:




Note the part I have, once again, italicised

ETA: I have bolded it too, in order to bludgeon any attempt at subtlety down to a non-specified poster's level of comprehesion.

Please note that if needed I can highlight it too. Would that help, non-specified poster?

1edited for clarity of meaning
Imagine this was a thread about the Grenfell Fire and you describe a press conference arranged for the survivors and the victims' families. I come along sneering about how bloody boring it all was: you would consider me boorish and disrespectful, no?

The aim of the Fokus group is not to entertain you.
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Old 13th October 2021, 09:54 AM   #3251
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Imagine this was a thread about the Grenfell Fire and you describe a press conference arranged for the survivors and the victims' families. I come along sneering about how bloody boring it all was: you would consider me boorish and disrespectful, no?

The aim of the Fokus group is not to entertain you.
Would the press conference be claiming the tower was set alight by saboteurs or that a Russian aircraft had dropped incendiary bombs on it?
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Old 13th October 2021, 09:54 AM   #3252
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
1. They have not accounted for all the inner hatches of the car deck being sealed.

2. Sealed and closed are two different things.

3. Nobody can say when these doors were closed. This will take a dive team physically opening the door to see if they'd been dogged from the other side.

The visor WAS the cause of the sinking.



I'm no expert but I think large ships are designed to keep water out.



Has nothing to do with Estonia's sinking whatsoever. Please stop.



It was listing to the starboard side as soon as she left port. I think they would have noticed any holes in the hull.

And like the hatches, nobody can officially state when those holes were made in the hull, but unofficially there are no reports of a hull breach on the night of the disaster. None, zero, nada.



Weird, almost as if there are strong currents at that depth combined with the fact the wreck lies on a slope. Makes a sane person wonder what that kind of combined stress from gravity, salt water exposure, strong currents, water pressure, and the passage of 27 years has placed on the hull of the wreck, and what the resulting damage might be...*strokes chin*...
What is it with you, Axxman300, that the Cult of the Bow Visor arouses such blind almost religious faith in you? The entire hypothesis is based on guesswork.

The vessel had a 0.5º list when it left port which is hardly alarming.
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Old 13th October 2021, 09:55 AM   #3253
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The doors don't mean anything, the main flooding route would be the air intakes for the engines, generators, ventilation of the machinery spaces and the air conditioning plant.
It's a pity that none of these things were investigated then.
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Old 13th October 2021, 09:59 AM   #3254
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
And importantly also note the lack of the word "idea".



So, no, you didn't suggest junkshop hated the idea of anything. You suggested they hated the families. That is what you wrote.
Maybe it was poorly worded and I should have said, 'hostile towards' rather than 'hate'.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:00 AM   #3255
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What is it with you, Axxman300, that the Cult of the Bow Visor arouses such blind almost religious faith in you? The entire hypothesis is based on guesswork.

The vessel had a 0.5º list when it left port which is hardly alarming.
It is not guesswork, we have been through it in great detail.

It had a list after correction attempts were made that greatly reduced reserve buoyancy.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:00 AM   #3256
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The are a quite a few engineers and naval architects involved.
"Involved" doesn't mean in charge. Prof. Westermann was "involved," for example, but had only a limited role that was subsumed by the frontmen. Who is actually directing the work, writing the reports, and presenting them? Who are the people actually directing the investigation, and what is their experience and qualifications?

BTW, you mentioned that one of the Fokus group directors was a survivor and that another was the relative of a victim. In a real investigation, that would be a gigantic no-no.

Quote:
Your faith in the status quo is touching.
Questioning Theory A does not mean clinging to Theory B. Your faith in the straw man is nauseating.

I asked you whether you believe that the cause determined by the JAIC was the real cause of the sinking, and I asked for a simple yes-or-no answer. Can I get that now, please?
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:00 AM   #3257
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's a pity that none of these things were investigated then.
Why would they need to be? when the car deck flooded and caused the ship to turn on it's side where do you think the water was going to go?
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:04 AM   #3258
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The aim of the Fokus group is not to entertain you.
Their heavy reliance on press conferences and other media suggest pandering to public attention is a big part of their intent. Most other forensic investigations do their work quietly and then present their findings only when all the research has been completed. Fokus instead trumpets conclusory headlines of the like, "Estonia's bow doors were blown off." Not entertainment per se, but you haven't convinced me they don't already have a desired outcome in mind and that what they're doing now isn't largely performative.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:06 AM   #3259
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The vessel had a 0.5º list when it left port which is hardly alarming.
...she says from her vast experience operating large oceangoing vessels in which the lack of compartmentalization on key decks makes roll stability a key safety factor.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:19 AM   #3260
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Imagine this was a thread about the Grenfell Fire and you describe a press conference arranged for the survivors and the victims' families. I come along sneering about how bloody boring it all was: you would consider me boorish and disrespectful, no?

The aim of the Fokus group is not to entertain you.

OK, it seems that I do have to break out the highlighter. Tell you what, I'll underline it too, maybe that will help:

Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Please illustrate in what way I have mocked "the survivors families"
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:20 AM   #3261
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I love how Vixen believes - still - that there's a functional equivalence between a) a ship's hull being built to keep water out, and b) a ship's hull being a hermetically-sealed chamber of air (much like, say, a blown-up and tied-off balloon).

And come to think of it, Vixen really ought to know a little about Viking seafarers. If she does, then perhaps she might mull over the fact that pretty much all Viking longships had open decks. Their hulls were built to keep out the sea, sure - but if there was a storm and waves managed to breach the freeboard of the ship, that water was going to pool and collect down by the keel. And if a sufficient mass of water collected there, the ship would sink.
If you knew about simple physics, you'd know that if a Viking longboat capsized, it would not sink but it would turn belly up. The biggest hazard was probably running into rocks, causing a breach in the hull, then you were done for. All the churches around the coastal towns have votive ships hanging from the ceiling, which probably to back to pagan times to invoke safety for those at sea.

This is a large one at Turku Cathedral.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:23 AM   #3262
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Would the press conference be claiming the tower was set alight by saboteurs or that a Russian aircraft had dropped incendiary bombs on it?
Sorry, are you claiming a professor from a Norwegian University's Material Science Department is acting in bad faith?

This says more about you than it does about her.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:24 AM   #3263
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you knew about simple physics ...
Says the person who confidently reported that temperatures over 700C can only be achieved in a lab, so thanks for the laugh.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:26 AM   #3264
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why would they need to be? when the car deck flooded and caused the ship to turn on it's side where do you think the water was going to go?
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:29 AM   #3265
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Is it?

“There’s no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact.”
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:30 AM   #3266
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Is it?
Indeed.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:33 AM   #3267
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Indeed.

No real evidence?
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:35 AM   #3268
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you knew about simple physics...
Are you claiming to be qualified to teach others about simple physics?
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:37 AM   #3269
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Are you claiming to be qualified to teach others about simple physics?
Look. It you are sitting in a long boat and a huge wave of water comes in, you just bail it out.

If you happened to topple over, the boat doesn't actually sink and you can hang on to the keel and try and right it.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:41 AM   #3270
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry, are you claiming a professor from a Norwegian University's Material Science Department is acting in bad faith?
Are you claiming a professor from a university was the only thing that happened in the press conference you linked to? Is it possible for you to distinguish the witness from the advocate? Did you forget the part where she was baited to support the politician's desired findings, and she said no, she wasn't going to do that?

Quote:
This says more about you than it does about her.
Ditto.

I've covered Prof. Westermann's findings in some detail. I notice you don't pay much attention to that. I covered Prof. Amdahl's findings in considerable detail. You didn't pay much attention to that, either. You seem to think that third-party interpretations of what experts say is somehow just as authoritative as what the experts themselves say. You don't seem to appreciate that your critics see a difference.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:41 AM   #3271
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look.
Answer the question.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:44 AM   #3272
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What is it with you, Axxman300, that the Cult of the Bow Visor arouses such blind almost religious faith in you? The entire hypothesis is based on guesswork.

The vessel had a 0.5º list when it left port which is hardly alarming.
Not so much religious faith as a reasonable grasp of the obvious.

A large gaping hole in the bow during heavy seas while sailing at flank speed seems like a recipe for disaster.

It's like the old joke about a submarine with a screen door, don't laugh, it keeps the fish out.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:46 AM   #3273
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look. It you are sitting in a long boat and a huge wave of water comes in, you just bail it out.

If you happened to topple over, the boat doesn't actually sink and you can hang on to the keel and try and right it.
Anytime water gets into a ship the crew either bails it out manually (as the Vikings did I'm sure) or they run pumps.... I mean obviously. That doesn't mean its impossible for a long ship to be overwhelmed and lose buoyancy in a storm (do you disagree with this?!).

Also the picture you posted earlier of a ship is not a Viking Long Ship.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 13th October 2021 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:49 AM   #3274
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Also the picture you posted earlier of a ship is not a Viking Long Ship.
Looks to me like a 32-gun frigate of the mid-to-late Napoleonic era.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:51 AM   #3275
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you knew about simple physics, you'd know that if a Viking longboat capsized, it would not sink but it would turn belly up. The biggest hazard was probably running into rocks, causing a breach in the hull, then you were done for. All the churches around the coastal towns have votive ships hanging from the ceiling, which probably to back to pagan times to invoke safety for those at sea.

This is a large one at Turku Cathedral.
The Estonia was no a Viking longboat.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:53 AM   #3276
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you knew about simple physics, you'd know that if a Viking longboat capsized, it would not sink but it would turn belly up.
What is your evidence for this?
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:54 AM   #3277
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry, are you claiming a professor from a Norwegian University's Material Science Department is acting in bad faith?

This says more about you than it does about her.
Where did I say that?
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:55 AM   #3278
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Indeed.
Where van I read about this fact?
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:56 AM   #3279
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look. It you are sitting in a long boat and a huge wave of water comes in, you just bail it out.

If you happened to topple over, the boat doesn't actually sink and you can hang on to the keel and try and right it.
What is your evidence for this?
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Old 13th October 2021, 12:14 PM   #3280
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Please illustrate in what way I have mocked "the survivors families"


I'm going to drop this now. I was trying to find out if Vixen could admit to making a mistake, even something as inconsequential as a typo, and I have my answer now.



ETA: To those that have gone to the effort of avoiding gendered pronouns when referring to me, thank you. For future reference, and to save you typing more characters than necessary, I'm fine with he/him/his &c. I'm a boy (but my mother doesn't know it).1




1She totally does, I just couldn't resist.
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