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Old 13th October 2021, 08:08 PM   #3361
Axxman300
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The official Estonia investigation folks posted this hour-long ROV video from their recent survey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeBixj2uP_c

06:30 - The camera pans up from a rock outcrop to the hole in the hull. Two things stand out:

1. The documentary team would have seen this too and omitted it intentionally, meaning they are not interested in the truth, just their agenda.

2. There are shattered rocks in the mud suggesting the ship had impacted the rock outcrop when it hit the bottom. The amount of smaller rocks indicates the wreck has been shifting in the two decades on the sea floor.

3. Some of the puncture marks appear to line up with the rock outcrop.

Along the way they block human remains with dark gray circles.

The bow footage begins around 57:11

At 1:00:17 the cross beam framing the base of the ramp portal shows obvious signs consistent with bending from a sudden downward force (like the ramp being wrenched open when the visor fell off).

I think there are a few more being posted. I'll get to them and post highlights.

I must be honest, I don't see anything contradicting the original conclusion about the Estonia's sinking in this video. All I see is a big ship laying in her side that will eventually roll upside down in a decade or so. The paint is still visible which is good because had explosives been used this would be painfully obvious, and there are zero signs of detonations at the bow or on the starboard side. In fact, that hole is right along the seem of the hull plates, and there are other dents in the side which did not breach the hull because they are in the middle of the plates, and not at the seems.

And I'm not an expert in ships but my training is in geology, and those rocks were shattered by a heavy object, and they're right where the hull breach is, and how this can be anything other than post-sinking structural damage is beyond me.
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:56 AM   #3362
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Hard to tell. "hewser" appears to be a mexican marketing company. What they have to do with it is anyone's guess.

Vixen likely meant "hawser" I suppose.

If one is unable to spell it, how likely is it that one knows what it is?
Do refer to my previous reference to a hawser and you'll be aware it is a typo.

Do have a look at the diagrams below to elucidate yourself.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg hawser.jpg (8.6 KB, 56 views)
File Type: png 220px-Tugboat_diagram-en.svg.png (23.0 KB, 56 views)
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:12 AM   #3363
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Everything you've written here is wrong.

1. The visor could not have detached from the ship without wrenching the ramp open due to the design.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it happened. How do we know it happened? The obvious answer is it is now completely detached from the ship, the joints or hinges or whatever held the ramp in place were OBVIOUSLY damaged. The stern ramp and ramp cover are still locked in place.

The divers found the ramp closed, but never checked to see if it was secured (not sure how they'd do that) and the forces involved with a large ship sinking combined with rough seas the ramp shutting on its own is well within reason.

2. The crewman reported water coming into the car deck BECAUSE IT WAS UNUSUAL, and occurred AFTER a large wave struck the ship. What he saw was just the beginning part of the disaster and the visor had been knocked loose but was still in place. I think the crewman would have mentioned the ramp being opened.

3. The Captain was clearly inept. The engineering crew was lazy.

Oh, and the car deck being above the waterline is relative in high seas.
1. If the car ramp came off because it shared the same superstructure framework as the bow visor, how come the bow visor was 1,000m away from the car ramp which is still attached to the vessel?

2. The official timeline is that Linde heard a loud noise in the car ramp/bow visor area - although he had told Dagens Nyheter in early October 1994 he had seen water in the car deck - and the guys in the engine room, Sillaste and Kikas heard it from the walkie-talkie message or as instructed by the bridge and checked the monitor. Sillaste has drawn a diagram at least five times for investigators and the press showing what he saw, and it is water coming in through the sides, not the top. Linde claims he was then instructed to go down to the car deck to investigate but was hampered by passengers running up the stairwell. All the indications are that Sillaste and Kikas were already up to their knees in the engine room and Linde's claim he went to the Information Desk on Deck 5 to ask the lady to open the car deck, which was supposedly locked, but in actuality rarely was, sounds like another fabrication by him and he was likely sent to tell her to put out a general emergency alarm.

3. The captain was far from inept. He trained at a Russian naval school and it took six years for him to get his captain certificate. He was a stickler for discipline and was under contract to run the vessel to schedule.

For all of Sillaste's edited recollections, he did his human best, not leaving the ship until 1:30, unlike Linde who was in his survival suit and life raft before you could say Jack Robinson and before Tammes and Ainsalu had even sent their Mayday calls.

Oh, and even it was high seas, the car deck height was 5m (sixteen feet) so for the waves to even get into the one metre gap at the top, they'd have to break the record for wave height, even in a Beaufort 7 gale.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:15 AM   #3364
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do refer to my previous reference to a hawser and you'll be aware it is a typo.

Do have a look at the diagrams below to elucidate yourself.


A person cannot elucidate himself/herself.

Perhaps - amusingly and ironically - you mean "....to educate yourself"

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Old 14th October 2021, 05:20 AM   #3365
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
A person cannot elucidate himself/herself.

Perhaps - amusingly and ironically - you mean "....to educate yourself"

"Scientists" always use the correct and proper words, don't you know.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:22 AM   #3366
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The official Estonia investigation folks posted this hour-long ROV video from their recent survey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeBixj2uP_c

06:30 - The camera pans up from a rock outcrop to the hole in the hull. Two things stand out:

1. The documentary team would have seen this too and omitted it intentionally, meaning they are not interested in the truth, just their agenda.

2. There are shattered rocks in the mud suggesting the ship had impacted the rock outcrop when it hit the bottom. The amount of smaller rocks indicates the wreck has been shifting in the two decades on the sea floor.

3. Some of the puncture marks appear to line up with the rock outcrop.

Along the way they block human remains with dark gray circles.

The bow footage begins around 57:11

At 1:00:17 the cross beam framing the base of the ramp portal shows obvious signs consistent with bending from a sudden downward force (like the ramp being wrenched open when the visor fell off).

I think there are a few more being posted. I'll get to them and post highlights.

I must be honest, I don't see anything contradicting the original conclusion about the Estonia's sinking in this video. All I see is a big ship laying in her side that will eventually roll upside down in a decade or so. The paint is still visible which is good because had explosives been used this would be painfully obvious, and there are zero signs of detonations at the bow or on the starboard side. In fact, that hole is right along the seem of the hull plates, and there are other dents in the side which did not breach the hull because they are in the middle of the plates, and not at the seems.

And I'm not an expert in ships but my training is in geology, and those rocks were shattered by a heavy object, and they're right where the hull breach is, and how this can be anything other than post-sinking structural damage is beyond me.
1. Kurm's expedition estimates that the ship has shifted ten metres to the south. Why would the nearby rocks in the new position have been improtant to Evertsson, whose interest was in damage to the starboard hull?

2. The 'shattered rocks nearby' are the stones and pebbles the Swedish government poured over it.

Quote:
"Wreck damage was not a spontaneous and natural process, but a larger damage to the wreck took place in 1996, when preparations were made for concreting the shipwreck," Kurm said of the reasons why the wreck is no longer in place.

Kurm explained that the soil was then covered with geotextile, on which sand and gravel were poured. "It is believed that the mass became so heavy that the clay slipped down the slope and the wreck slipped along it. Some of the sand and gravel sank into the crater left by the wreck."

At the same time, Kurm wants to find out the details of why this was the case in 1996.

"The case allegedly culminated in a lawsuit in which the Swedish state sued a worker to damage the seabed and allow the wreck to move," he told himself of new information he intended to investigate further. "Based on the information, experts can assess what might happen during a shipwreck slip."
3. But do they, or is it an optical illusion? In any case calculations and simulations will need to be carried out to discover if the rocks could possibly cause the concomitant damage seen on the starboard.

.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:23 AM   #3367
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
A person cannot elucidate himself/herself.

Perhaps - amusingly and ironically - you mean "....to educate yourself"

You do find yourself wondering if it's deliberate.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:27 AM   #3368
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
1. If the car ramp came off because it shared the same superstructure framework as the bow visor, how come the bow visor was 1,000m away from the car ramp which is still attached to the vessel?

No. There were points of connectivity between the bow visor and the bow ramp. When the visor eventually tore itself free from the ship, it damaged the structural integrity of the ramp as it did so. There's zero mystery as to why the visor came off the ship while the ramp - though damaged and fatally compromised - stayed attached to the ship.



Quote:
2. The official timeline is that Linde heard a loud noise in the car ramp/bow visor area - although he had told Dagens Nyheter in early October 1994 he had seen water in the car deck - and the guys in the engine room, Sillaste and Kikas heard it from the walkie-talkie message or as instructed by the bridge and checked the monitor. Sillaste has drawn a diagram at least five times for investigators and the press showing what he saw, and it is water coming in through the sides, not the top. Linde claims he was then instructed to go down to the car deck to investigate but was hampered by passengers running up the stairwell. All the indications are that Sillaste and Kikas were already up to their knees in the engine room and Linde's claim he went to the Information Desk on Deck 5 to ask the lady to open the car deck, which was supposedly locked, but in actuality rarely was, sounds like another fabrication by him and he was likely sent to tell her to put out a general emergency alarm.

The sides of the bow ramp - which by now were not watertight, after the ramp's structural integrity was damaged when the bow visor tore off the ship - were (obviously) closer to the waterline than the top of the ramp. It's therefore zero mystery as to why the majority of the water forcing its way around the ramp and into the vehicle deck came in via the sides of the ramp rather than the top.



Quote:
3. The captain was far from inept. He trained at a Russian naval school and it took six years for him to get his captain certificate. He was a stickler for discipline and was under contract to run the vessel to schedule.

For all of Sillaste's edited recollections, he did his human best, not leaving the ship until 1:30, unlike Linde who was in his survival suit and life raft before you could say Jack Robinson and before Tammes and Ainsalu had even sent their Mayday calls.

And?



Quote:
Oh, and even it was high seas, the car deck height was 5m (sixteen feet) so for the waves to even get into the one metre gap at the top, they'd have to break the record for wave height, even in a Beaufort 7 gale.

Once again: no dice. Your (ignorant and ill-founded) attempt at an argument on this point can immediately be refuted by reference to the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster. That ferry also had a vehicle deck above the waterline. That ferry was sailing in relatively flat-calm seas at the time. And that ferry sank because its open bow doors allowed enough water into the ship to fatally compromise its buoyancy. By contrast, the Estonia - pitching up and down in the high swell and still sailing at speed - would have taken in water via its broken bow opening even more easily than HOFE did.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:34 AM   #3369
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
3. But do they, or is it an optical illusion? In any case calculations and simulations will need to be carried out to discover if the rocks could possibly cause the concomitant damage seen on the starboard.

Another "big-sounding" word used incorrectly. Again, something that's (presumably) designed to impress.... ends up having completely the opposite effect.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:55 AM   #3370
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
1. If the car ramp came off because it shared the same superstructure framework as the bow visor, how come the bow visor was 1,000m away from the car ramp which is still attached to the vessel?
"If". No, that's not why it got damaged.

The ramp, when closed, extended above the deck level and when the visor lowered it had a box-like structure to accommodate this. So when the visor broke loose it became a dead weight hooked over the ramp. We all know this already.

Quote:
2. The official timeline is that Linde heard a loud noise in the car ramp/bow visor area - although he had told Dagens Nyheter in early October 1994 he had seen water in the car deck - and the guys in the engine room, Sillaste and Kikas heard it from the walkie-talkie message or as instructed by the bridge and checked the monitor. Sillaste has drawn a diagram at least five times for investigators and the press showing what he saw, and it is water coming in through the sides, not the top. Linde claims he was then instructed to go down to the car deck to investigate but was hampered by passengers running up the stairwell. All the indications are that Sillaste and Kikas were already up to their knees in the engine room and Linde's claim he went to the Information Desk on Deck 5 to ask the lady to open the car deck, which was supposedly locked, but in actuality rarely was, sounds like another fabrication by him and he was likely sent to tell her to put out a general emergency alarm.
How disrespectful of you to lambast these poor victims for failing to have perfect recall of these rapidly changing, confusing and frightening events. Perhaps you think they should have kept notes. [/sarcasm]
If, as seems reasonable, the ramp was damaged by being hauled upon by the dead weight of the visor, and was perhaps being held shut by a hawser, which would allow a degree of flexing, why would it be surprising if it had no good water seal all the way up each side? Was it even designed to be watertight? It was after all the visor's job to keep the sea out.

Quote:
3. The captain was far from inept. He trained at a Russian naval school and it took six years for him to get his captain certificate. He was a stickler for discipline and was under contract to run the vessel to schedule.
Clearly you have decided to rely on his qualifications rather than the evidence of his actions. Why should his captain's certificate make him infallible when the Estonia's seaworthiness certificate obviously did not do likewise for the ship?

Quote:
For all of Sillaste's edited recollections, he did his human best, not leaving the ship until 1:30, unlike Linde who was in his survival suit and life raft before you could say Jack Robinson and before Tammes and Ainsalu had even sent their Mayday calls.
Your oft-repeated anecdote about Linde already waiting in a liferaft in a survival suit is rather light on timeline details about when he was found there.

Quote:
Oh, and even it was high seas, the car deck height was 5m (sixteen feet) so for the waves to even get into the one metre gap at the top, they'd have to break the record for wave height, even in a Beaufort 7 gale.
If the ship had been sailing serenely through the storm and not pitching at all you might have the beginnings of a point but, alas, you don't.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:03 AM   #3371
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Another "big-sounding" word used incorrectly. Again, something that's (presumably) designed to impress.... ends up having completely the opposite effect.
Nah. In my opinion not designed to impress, but designed to muddle the discussion.

In every substantive post (substantive as in quantity, not quality of words) there is one of these 'silly mistakes', specifically put there so that people can point these out and the resulting de-rail/misunderstanding can than be strung out for yet another few pages, without ever getting to some kind of resolution.

Having said that. They are still valuable. Not only as a point for fun, but also as something where actual pieces of knowledge from the other posters result from.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:06 AM   #3372
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory. There is no way 'welding' would cause the type of deformation as seen here. Professor Westermann was being purely descriptive and was not giving an opinion as all she did was microscopically examine the bow visor for deformations and its type.
Utter and complete bollocks.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:08 AM   #3373
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
On a ship, really? In the middle of the sea, when you need a constant power supply?
Strange as may seem to use welding is often done on-board ships, rigs and other maritime structures. And electricity has been available on ships for a century or more.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:10 AM   #3374
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
If the ship had been sailing serenely through the storm and not pitching at all you might have the beginnings of a point but, alas, you don't.

She wouldn't really have a point even then. The Herald of Free Enterprise disaster took place in benign sea conditions: the combination of 1) a bow wave and 2) the inevitable bow-stern oscillations of a ship propelling itself forward from the stern.... allowed more than enough water to get into the vehicle deck (which, as on the Estonia, was above the waterline) to sink the ship in under two minutes.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:14 AM   #3375
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
A huge overclaim based on nothing. You simply don't know what sample she examined microscopically and you definitely don't know what temperatures are involved in welding. It's not the same thing as soldering. You blithely mix and match fragments of what you've read as if hull plate deformations on the scale of tens of centimetres were something you would examine with a microscope.
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It illustrates the point. Plumbers' blowtorches burn hotter than the 700C you claimed and are entirely portable. Much more powerful/hotter devices are also portable. Please stop talking such palpable bilge.

eta:

Candle flame ≈1,100 °C (≈2,012 °F) [majority]; hot spots may be 1,300–1,400 °C (2,372–2,552 °F)
Propane blowtorch 1,200–1,700 °C (2,192–3,092 °F)

wiki
The classic fuel/oxygen welding systems burn even hotter, and have been portable and used at sea for over a century:
Propane/air burns at 1,980°C
Propane/oxygen burns at 2,250°C
Ethyne ('acetylene)/oxygen burns at 3,500°C

There are other mixes.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:34 AM   #3376
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
A person cannot elucidate himself/herself.

Perhaps - amusingly and ironically - you mean "....to educate yourself"

Really? Perhaps you need to enlighten yourself.

https://mobile-dictionary.reverso.ne...cidate+oneself
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:39 AM   #3377
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
^^^THIS^^^
There are clearly posters here who know something (quite a bit actually) about the design, construction, and operation of ships. If Vixen were 'wise' she'd figure that out, realize that she is out of her depth, and head to shallow water. If...
Actually, it is very disconcerting that for all their braggadocio, none of them seem to be familiar with what happens when a boat capsizes. They think a longboat immediately sinks to the bottom.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:40 AM   #3378
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? Perhaps you need to enlighten yourself.

https://mobile-dictionary.reverso.ne...cidate+oneself

Perhaps you need to read the page you just linked to.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:42 AM   #3379
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Everything you've written here is wrong.

1. The visor could not have detached from the ship without wrenching the ramp open due to the design.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it happened. How do we know it happened? The obvious answer is it is now completely detached from the ship, the joints or hinges or whatever held the ramp in place were OBVIOUSLY damaged. The stern ramp and ramp cover are still locked in place.

The divers found the ramp closed, but never checked to see if it was secured (not sure how they'd do that) and the forces involved with a large ship sinking combined with rough seas the ramp shutting on its own is well within reason.

2. The crewman reported water coming into the car deck BECAUSE IT WAS UNUSUAL, and occurred AFTER a large wave struck the ship. What he saw was just the beginning part of the disaster and the visor had been knocked loose but was still in place. I think the crewman would have mentioned the ramp being opened.

3. The Captain was clearly inept. The engineering crew was lazy.

Oh, and the car deck being above the waterline is relative in high seas.
Actually, the top of one (or even both) of the stern ramps was found to be open. Hence the satire in Hikipedia it was opened to let cigarette smoke out.

Seriously though, that someone saw fit to open the stern ramp slightly, indicates there was a fire, hence the Mr Skylight 1/2 message, together with the fire drenchers turned on in the car deck.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:52 AM   #3380
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
"If". No, that's not why it got damaged.

The ramp, when closed, extended above the deck level and when the visor lowered it had a box-like structure to accommodate this. So when the visor broke loose it became a dead weight hooked over the ramp. We all know this already.


How disrespectful of you to lambast these poor victims for failing to have perfect recall of these rapidly changing, confusing and frightening events. Perhaps you think they should have kept notes. [/sarcasm]
If, as seems reasonable, the ramp was damaged by being hauled upon by the dead weight of the visor, and was perhaps being held shut by a hawser, which would allow a degree of flexing, why would it be surprising if it had no good water seal all the way up each side? Was it even designed to be watertight? It was after all the visor's job to keep the sea out.


Clearly you have decided to rely on his qualifications rather than the evidence of his actions. Why should his captain's certificate make him infallible when the Estonia's seaworthiness certificate obviously did not do likewise for the ship?


Your oft-repeated anecdote about Linde already waiting in a liferaft in a survival suit is rather light on timeline details about when he was found there.


If the ship had been sailing serenely through the storm and not pitching at all you might have the beginnings of a point but, alas, you don't.
The crew were trained to keep time. Linde mentions looking at his watch and noting the time on several occasions. It is Linde who said he knew it was 1:22 when he got in the life raft because he looked at his watch. This information comes from Linde himself.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:54 AM   #3381
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Actually, it is very disconcerting that for all their braggadocio...
Well, there it is. You don't actually respect anyone's intelligence, knowledge, training, or expertise who doesn't agree with you. To you, all their hard-won knowledge and skill is mere "braggadocio" that you can set aside without further thought.

Quote:
...none of them seem to be familiar with what happens when a boat capsizes.
And then you just double down on yet another "Because I say so" argument. I would say this is the most brazenly arrogant thing you've written in this thread, except it probably isn't.
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Old 14th October 2021, 06:55 AM   #3382
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This information comes from Linde himself.
Wait, I though we couldn't trust Linde as a witness. Is he back from being a liar?
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:05 AM   #3383
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Wait, I though we couldn't trust Linde as a witness. Is he back from being a liar?
They do tend to be hoist by their own petards.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:06 AM   #3384
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Well, there it is. You don't actually respect anyone's intelligence, knowledge, training, or expertise who doesn't agree with you. To you, all their hard-won knowledge and skill is mere "braggadocio" that you can set aside without further thought.



And then you just double down on yet another "Because I say so" argument. I would say this is the most brazenly arrogant thing you've written in this thread, except it probably isn't.
Let me ask you then: if a longboat capsizes, does it immediately sink?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:13 AM   #3385
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They do tend to be hoist by their own petards.
You're avoiding the issue.

You tell us we have to accept Linde's testimony on this point. But when we cite Linde's testimony for other things that don't agree with your conspiracy theory, you tell us how untrustworthy he is and dismiss him categorically. I previously asked you what criteria you use to tell when Linde is lying and when he's telling the truth. And you avoided the issue back then too; you just gave us an unsolicited opinion of how you think chronic liars think.

How can you tell, from moment to moment, whether Linde is lying or not?
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:14 AM   #3386
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? Perhaps you need to enlighten yourself.

https://mobile-dictionary.reverso.ne...cidate+oneself
Quote:
elucidate
vb to make clear (something obscure or difficult); clarify
(C16: from Late Latin elucidare to enlighten; see lucid)
That's from your own link. Why do you constantly link to things that prove you wrong? You must be pulling our legs here. You cannot possibly be this stupid.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:23 AM   #3387
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? Perhaps you need to enlighten yourself.

https://mobile-dictionary.reverso.ne...cidate+oneself
That link explains the word "elucidate" and that provides no support at all for your curious use of it in "elucidate yourself".

And I was just about to try to word some joke about "explain yourself" when I realised that it's yet another derail which will clog up the thread with nonsense whether it was deliberately planted as a talking point or not.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:26 AM   #3388
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Let me ask you then: if a longboat capsizes, does it immediately sink?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
Nonsense: a simple yes or no doesn't suffice, because my whole point is that such simplistic scenario-mongering as you insist upon doesn't provide useful knowledge. A boat sinks for exactly and only one reason: it has lost buoyancy. The reasons why it might lose buoyancy are many and varied. In the case of Viking ships, yes, they will sink if they ship too much water, which can happen if they roll too far, if they ship water over the bows, or if water enters via the notoriously leaky seams, or any other of a dozen other scenarios I can imagine. The Vikings knew this, which is why bailing the ships is such a prominently-mentioned aspect of their narratives.

The real point remains how you are being confronted with the knowledge and experience of people who have designed, built, and operated large oceangoing vessels as part of their professions, as well as studied professionally the failures in those endeavors that occasionally befall us. Yet you -- who have done none of these things -- rely almost exclusively on your own ill-informed say-so to attempt to make your point. Explain why a reasonable person should not dismiss your arguments as arrogant crackpottery.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:29 AM   #3389
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post


Stop trying to look for controversy where none exists. Grow up!
Isn't this entire thread looking for controversy where none exists?
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:31 AM   #3390
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Isn't this entire thread looking for controversy where none exists?
You win the thread. Well done.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:32 AM   #3391
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Let me ask you then: if a longboat capsizes, does it immediately sink?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
I'm absolutely not an expert but I'm going to try "yes", although it's really "yes but". It won't capsize as in roll right over. If it tips over until it fills with water it'll founder and sink rather than continue to tip over.

Do I win anything?
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:33 AM   #3392
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
That's from your own link. Why do you constantly link to things that prove you wrong? You must be pulling our legs here. You cannot possibly be this stupid.
"When people show you who they are, believe them." Maya Angelou
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:33 AM   #3393
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I'm absolutely not an expert but I'm going to try "yes", although it's really "yes but". It won't capsize as in roll right over. If it tips over until it fills with water it'll founder and sink rather than continue to tip over.

Do I win anything?
My guess is you will win some arrogant condescension. That will be wrong.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:38 AM   #3394
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? Perhaps you need to enlighten yourself.

https://mobile-dictionary.reverso.ne...cidate+oneself

No. I'll start by pointing out that I know full well what the verb "elucidate" means and how it's used.

See, what you've done is you've put the search term "elucidate oneself" into Reverso. But you've then signally failed to notice that Reverso hasn't actually given you a result which is directly linked to the two-word term "elucidate oneself". Instead, its algorithm has clearly gone: "There's no such thing as "elucidate oneself", but in the absence of that, here's the definition of "elucidate"."

In exactly the same way, if I put the search term "extrapolate oneself" or "imply oneself" into Reverso, it will simply return the definition of "extrapolate" and "imply" respectively.

And it gives the correct definition of "elucidate". A person can elucidate a concept; or a person can elucidate an argument. Or a person can elucidate a point. As the Reverso definition correctly states: to elucidate (something) is to make that thing - which is obscure or difficult to understand - clear. The object of the verb "to elucidate" has to , by definition, be a concept/argument/point. The object of the verb "to elucidate" can never, by definition, be a person.

A person cannot elucidate himself or herself.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:40 AM   #3395
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Perhaps you need to read the page you just linked to.

Yeah. Reading for comprehension appears to be problematic in certain circles...
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:44 AM   #3396
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
My guess is you will win some arrogant condescension. That will be wrong.
Ah, cool. I'll add it to my collection. I hope it starts "Oh dear". I particularly enjoy those ones.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:53 AM   #3397
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Actually, it is very disconcerting that for all their braggadocio, none of them seem to be familiar with what happens when a boat capsizes. They think a longboat immediately sinks to the bottom.

There's only one person in this thread who's not only unfamiliar with what happens when a boat/ship capsizes and sinks..... but who actually promotes a nonsensical and incorrect "theory" of how certain boats/ships must necessarily behave when they sink.


Vixen: take a look at the picture below. It's a photograph of what remains of a Roman shipwreck. The wood of the ship has long since rotted away, and all that remains is its cargo of terracotta amphorae (jugs/containers).

Do you know, Vixen, why the amphorae in the picture are lying on the seabed in tight formation with each other and in the shape of a ship? It's because they were being transported in an open-decked ship, and the ship sank straight down in its same horizontal keel-down attitude. If the ship had capsized, the amphorae would simply have spilled out and fallen to the seabed in a haphazard pile.

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Old 14th October 2021, 08:06 AM   #3398
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Actually, it is very disconcerting that for all their braggadocio, none of them seem to be familiar with what happens when a boat capsizes. They think a longboat immediately sinks to the bottom.
What is your evidence that it doesn't?
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:16 AM   #3399
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Actually, the top of one (or even both) of the stern ramps was found to be open. Hence the satire in Hikipedia it was opened to let cigarette smoke out.

Seriously though, that someone saw fit to open the stern ramp slightly, indicates there was a fire, hence the Mr Skylight 1/2 message, together with the fire drenchers turned on in the car deck.
You don't think that the ramp could have been damaged when the ship landed on it ?

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 14th October 2021 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:19 AM   #3400
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The classic fuel/oxygen welding systems burn even hotter, and have been portable and used at sea for over a century:
Propane/air burns at 1,980°C
Propane/oxygen burns at 2,250°C
Ethyne ('acetylene)/oxygen burns at 3,500°C

There are other mixes.
The discussion wasn't 'how hot can welding systems burn'. We were discussing why Clausthal-Zellerfeld said assuming Braidwood's sample had not been heated to 700°C then XYZ follows. The significance of the 700°C is to do with at what temperature causes a change in the inherent structure of the steel.
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