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Old 15th October 2021, 02:55 AM   #3521
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Heh. We use the passive tense for that type of thing.

"We"? I thought you were British. Or does it depend on what time of day it is or something?
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Old 15th October 2021, 02:57 AM   #3522
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Capsizing requires a roll moment. This source does not discuss that. Show us, preferably with a vector diagram relating the center of gravity to the center of buoyancy, how a ship that fills with water will inevitably capsize. Show us the roll moment.

Did I miss the part where Vixen addresses this matter?
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Old 15th October 2021, 02:58 AM   #3523
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We were talking about capsizing right, when the trim (centre of gravity) is displaced (listing). When a vessel lists at 90° it capsizes belly up.
What is your evidence for this?

ship's turning right over and staying afloat are very rare. If a ship goes to 90° it usually goes under.

It is difficult (but not impossible) to find examples of ships floating upside down for any time at all.
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Old 15th October 2021, 02:59 AM   #3524
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We were talking about capsizing right, when the trim (centre of gravity) is displaced (listing). When a vessel lists at 90° it capsizes belly up.
What is your evidence for this?

ship's turning right over and staying afloat are very rare. If a ship goes to 90° it usually goes under.

It is difficult (but not impossible) to find examples of ships floating upside down for any time at all.


It is a lot more common for small fishing boats and dinghies with built in buoyancy or sailing boats with tall masts and rigging.
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:05 AM   #3525
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do look up how bulkheads in the hull add to the buoyancy of a ship. Stop harping on about overloading the wretched thing and thereby claiming that elementary laws of physics do not apply. (Short answer: they do.)

Look up Vasa to find out why it sank.
What does Vasa have to do with anything?

Bulkheads will limit flooding but only if they are sealed. If there are openings then water will flood through.
If machinery spaces flood then there very well may not be enough buoyancy in other compartments to keep a ship afloat.

If water is flooding down from higher decks in to compartments then bulkheads will not help.

In the case of Estonia the thousands of tons of water on the car deck heeled the ship over submerging openings that allowed flooding of lower compartments and water gained entry from above through open stairwells and ventilators in to machinery spaces and accommodation.
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:05 AM   #3526
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
... the placement of just one cubic metre of uranium into the hull of a 100ft yacht would make it sink, while displacing hardly any air from the hull.
Ah, but that stuff's radioactive so obviously it would sink the yacht by simple chemistry.
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:06 AM   #3527
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Longboats had sails, did they not?
Yes but they were mainly rowing vessels, the sail was an auxiliary only used when conditions were right. It still applies to them though, an inexperienced skipper or a sudden blow up could capsize them like any other sailing ship.
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:09 AM   #3528
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
May I politely suggest you look up the priniciples of displacement of air so that you have a better understanding of what happens when you carefully load up your boat with the aim of making it sink?

Anyone can deliberately crash a car or an aeroplane but it doesn't mean you've outwitted the designers.
All you need to do to sink a boat is let water in. You don't need to overload it. In a dinghy the easiest way is to tip it over.

I remember when I learned to sail many decades ago with the Sea Cadets, it was quite difficult to make a dinghy turn right over to do recovery drill on a capsized boat.
It was easy to get it on it's side but more difficult to force it further over.
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:09 AM   #3529
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
And still, by far the vast majority of boats and ships do not turn over when they sink and even those that do sink very quickly.

https://i.imgur.com/bYZPKDnl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Iqz1pz2l.jpg

Actually, that photo of a rowing eight sinking is an excellent example to take.

It's a great example for this reason: these sorts of rowing boats don't typically sink because they collide with something, or because they develop leaks. They sink because they have very little free board (in order to facilitate fast and efficient rowing strokes) - which means it's relatively easy for water from the lake/river to splash above that free board and into the boat. The boat is buoyant when its cargo is merely the rowers and the cox. But if/when more water gets over the side and into the boat than can be auto-bilged out, there comes a point when the additional mass of this water pushes the boat past its buoyancy limit. And it starts to sink.

Furthermore, there's ample empirical evidence (not least from the televised annual Boat Race in the UK) that when these sorts of rowing boats start to sink in this way, they simply sink straight downwards, without capsizing. As your photo elegantly shows.....

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Old 15th October 2021, 03:12 AM   #3530
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is your evidence for this?

ship's turning right over and staying afloat are very rare. If a ship goes to 90° it usually goes under.

Yes. And when it reaches that 90° inclination, it usually sinks in that inclination. It doesn't continue rolling until it's completely upside down, as Vixen would (for some reason) like to believe.
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:23 AM   #3531
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Ah, but that stuff's radioactive so obviously it would sink the yacht by simple chemistry.
Uranium is used in the bulb keel on a racing yacht to add ballast. It is very dense so weight can be added while keeping the bulb streamlined.
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:38 AM   #3532
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Uranium is used in the bulb keel on a racing yacht to add ballast. It is very dense so weight can be added while keeping the bulb streamlined.

Indeed. And if too much of it was used, it would sink the yacht - while still barely making a dent in this "displacement of air" nonsense that Vixen seems to think of as all-important.
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Old 15th October 2021, 03:46 AM   #3533
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On a kind-of-related topic, I remember an episode of Mythbusters (in its original incarnation) where they were testing the effects of inflation pressure on the throwing/placekicking distances of a (American) football. They tried the test using either regular air or helium to inflate the footballs, at varying inflation pressures.

Before each test, they weighed the football. And it temporarily bamboozled even the great Adam and Jamie when the football inflated with helium to (say) 16psi was heavier than the same football inflated with helium to (say) 11psi. Instinctively, one would be tempted to think that "more helium" equals "lighter". But, of course, if that "more helium" is contained/constrained within the same volume (here, the internal volume of the football), it is indeed heavier.


(Not to mention the fact that more helium - whatever volume it's contained within - always has a greater mass than less helium. It's just that one would have to assess the helium in a vacuum to make that determination, owing to the fundamental difficulty of "weighing" helium when it's surrounded by air)

Last edited by LondonJohn; 15th October 2021 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 15th October 2021, 05:05 AM   #3534
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I disagree. Creating watertight compartments may help maintain buoyancy in case of a hull breach, but it cannot add to the buoyancy, which was Vixen's claim.

I suppose so. I’m still not convinced of the relevance of bulkheads to water flooding the car deck of a ferry, in any case.
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Old 15th October 2021, 05:51 AM   #3535
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I suppose so. I’m still not convinced of the relevance of bulkheads to water flooding the car deck of a ferry, in any case.
Well, they're not relevant, are they?

I suspect this may have been intended as a set-up for Vixen to revisit some of her earlier theories about passanger cabins being watertight, and 'therefore there must have been a breach in the starboard side of the hull'. There was something about swimming pools in there, too. Maybe l'm just a cynic.

I hope we get the one with the mini-sub, that was a favourite of mine.
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Old 15th October 2021, 06:15 AM   #3536
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Well, they're not relevant, are they?

I suspect this may have been intended as a set-up for Vixen to revisit some of her earlier theories about passanger cabins being watertight, and 'therefore there must have been a breach in the starboard side of the hull'. There was something about swimming pools in there, too. Maybe l'm just a cynic.

I hope we get the one with the mini-sub, that was a favourite of mine.
I think her trump card at the moment is the report she told us about saying that two out of six doors leading from the car deck were found to be intact.

It's not clear which side of the ship those doors are on, which would obviously matter since if they were on the port side they'd not be involved in the flooding.
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Old 15th October 2021, 06:25 AM   #3537
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
May I politely suggest you look up the priniciples of displacement of air so that you have a better understanding of what happens when you carefully load up your boat with the aim of making it sink?

No. I'd rather not argue about predictions based on "principles" when I have everything I need to try it out for myself.

Awaiting your instructions for how to introduce the water in an appropriately unbalanced way, for your clearly stated prediction of the results based on the principles you describe, and of course your wager.
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Old 15th October 2021, 06:35 AM   #3538
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I think her trump card at the moment is the report she told us about saying that two out of six doors leading from the car deck were found to be intact.

It's not clear which side of the ship those doors are on, which would obviously matter since if they were on the port side they'd not be involved in the flooding.
They make no difference as there are lots of other openings to the hull.
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Old 15th October 2021, 06:37 AM   #3539
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
No. I'd rather not argue about predictions based on "principles" when I have everything I need to try it out for myself.

Awaiting your instructions for how to introduce the water in an appropriately unbalanced way, for your clearly stated prediction of the results based on the principles you describe, and of course your wager.
You need to blow a hole in the side
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Old 15th October 2021, 06:50 AM   #3540
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We were talking about capsizing right...
We're talking about two things. You've conflated them incorrectly because you're letting Anders Björkmann teach you his special brand of physics. Capsizing has to do with the balance of roll moments and righting moments and has nothing to do with a change in buoyancy. Sinking has to do with a change in buoyancy, which has nothing to do with roll. In your haste to appear smart, you've cited factors for one as if they were factors for the other, and are frantically trying to suggest that your critics don't understand "simple" physics. And now you're waffling your way out of a practical experiment to demonstrate that "simple physics" doesn't do what you say it does.

Quote:
...when the trim (centre of gravity) is displaced (listing).
Displaced with respect to what? What are the forces involved? Upon what centers do they act? What physical phenomena define these centers? In what directions must each force act? What are the force vectors involved, and how do they sum? Draw us a diagram that shows that a mere change in the magnitude of the buoyancy vector will also necessarily change the center where it acts and thus create a roll moment that inevitably capsizes the ship.

Quote:
...When a vessel lists at 90° it capsizes belly up.
No. When a vessel lists at 90° it lists at 90°. When a vessel lists at 180° it will have capsized belly-up because that's just a different way of saying that's what its roll angle is. This is a function of the vector sum of forces and the dynamics of it are driven by factors that are only partly related to the magnitudes of these vectors. You present a source that deals only in the magnitude of vectors (in fact eliminating the vector reality altogether) and cite it as proof that the directions of these vectors and where they act upon the structure of the ship makes capsizing inevitable.

In practical shipbuilding, once a vessel has rolled to particularly degree and after the righting moment is no longer strong enough to restore trim, openings in the vessel become vulnerable to shipping water into the hull that a were intended to remain above water. The notion that any ship whose "hull is not breached" will float upside down for hours in any roll attitude is naive.

Quote:
If it has a superstructure such as a liner or cruiser, then the amount of time it takes water to displace the air guides you as to how long before it sinks.
A superstructure changes the vector sum, to be sure. But in ways your model of the dynamics doesn't properly consider. Draw us vector diagrams of a ships with and without a superstructure and show how the sums change as buoyancy increases or decreases.

Quote:
Of course, if you cynically believe that artificially pouring water into it to the brim or adding 40K or iron ore, as someone claiming to be an expert suggested, you are merely cheating instead of truthfully acknowledging the case.
Ah, we're to the, "You may be an expert, but I say you're lying," stage of the conspiracy-theorist's pattern argument.
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Old 15th October 2021, 06:50 AM   #3541
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They make no difference as there are lots of other openings to the hull.
I'm sure there are several other routes water could have taken off the car deck and deeper into the ship but if, as seems very likely to me, the only two doors which were accessible for inspection are on the side of the wreck which lies uppermost then they'd be entirely irrelevant to the sinking anyway.
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Old 15th October 2021, 07:00 AM   #3542
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Did I miss the part where Vixen addresses this matter?
Her posts #3506, #3507, #3509 double down on the, "I'm right because of simple physics," claims without providing any details, and certainly without providing the vector sums. She alluded to "displac[ing]... the centre of mass" as the cause for a ship to roll, but she didn't explain how this (supposedly necessarily) arises from a displacement of air with water. You can see above where I respond to her continued handwaving in more detail.
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Old 15th October 2021, 07:07 AM   #3543
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
No. I'd rather not argue about predictions based on "principles" when I have everything I need to try it out for myself.
Indeed, I suspect she's pursuing this line of argument because the "principles" she's alluding to are those put forward by Anders Björkmann. She's learned that citing him as an authority will result in derisive laughter from those of us who know him better than she. But she doesn't have the wherewithal to explain and defend those "principles" herself. So all that's left is bluster, which tends to cave in fairly quickly in the face of practical demonstrations.

Quote:
Awaiting your instructions for how to introduce the water in an appropriately unbalanced way...
Four or five tequila shots should do the trick.
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Old 15th October 2021, 07:29 AM   #3544
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
No. I'd rather not argue about predictions based on "principles" when I have everything I need to try it out for myself.

Awaiting your instructions for how to introduce the water in an appropriately unbalanced way, for your clearly stated prediction of the results based on the principles you describe, and of course your wager.
Me too. I have a sea (the kitchen sink) and a boat (a plastic food tub). I just want to know how to let water into the boat so that it rolls 180 and remains floating upside-down.
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Old 15th October 2021, 07:43 AM   #3545
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Of course it will sink if you deliberately add surplus weight to it whilst keeping it balanced.
Thats not what we did. We rolled to one side so water could go over the side. We were in wading depth so recovering the boat was easy.
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Old 15th October 2021, 07:59 AM   #3546
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We were talking about capsizing right, when the trim (centre of gravity) is displaced (listing). When a vessel lists at 90° it capsizes belly up. If it has a superstructure such as a liner or cruiser, then the amount of time it takes water to displace the air guides you as to how long before it sinks.
No. They. Don't. Always. Do. That.

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I AGREE


I honestly haven't the foggiest clue why you are even making this baseless claim AGAIN, except maybe it's something you thought before and as always you won't admit to making a mistake. What difference does it make if the Estonia went down on her side vs upside down with respect to if she was deliberately sunk or not???
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Old 15th October 2021, 10:27 AM   #3547
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
No. They. Don't. Always. Do. That.

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I AGREE


I honestly haven't the foggiest clue why you are even making this baseless claim AGAIN, except maybe it's something you thought before and as always you won't admit to making a mistake. What difference does it make if the Estonia went down on her side vs upside down with respect to if she was deliberately sunk or not???

I can only assume it’s something to do with this being the nautical equivalent of a “controlled demolition”.
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Old 15th October 2021, 11:25 AM   #3548
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
No. They. Don't. Always. Do. That.

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I AGREE


I honestly haven't the foggiest clue why you are even making this baseless claim AGAIN, except maybe it's something you thought before and as always you won't admit to making a mistake. What difference does it make if the Estonia went down on her side vs upside down with respect to if she was deliberately sunk or not???

It’s a Scientific FactTM that ships that are deliberately sunk always end up on their side. See, for example, the Hindenburg at Scapa Vamoose Flow: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...nburg_sunk.jpg
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Old 15th October 2021, 11:38 AM   #3549
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
... See, for example, the Hindenburg at Scapa Vamoose Flow..
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Old 15th October 2021, 11:43 AM   #3550
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
It’s a Scientific FactTM that ships that are deliberately sunk always end up on their side. See, for example, the Hindenburg at Scapa Vamoose Flow: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...nburg_sunk.jpg
Graf Spee https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...raf_Spee_1.jpg
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Old 15th October 2021, 02:28 PM   #3551
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USS West Virginia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_...A_-_306536.jpg

USS Arizona:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_..._Arizona_2.png

USS California:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_...A_-_295983.jpg
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Old 15th October 2021, 02:34 PM   #3552
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I'm tempted to nom it, but the context runs deep
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Old 15th October 2021, 04:01 PM   #3553
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
So that's all those ships that were torpedoed and bombed and they all went down without turning over!

By far the vast majority of ships you see sinking after hitting mines or being torpedoed look like this






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Old 16th October 2021, 03:19 AM   #3554
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Did I miss the part where Vixen addresses this matter?
Here you go.

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Old 16th October 2021, 03:21 AM   #3555
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Are you still not aware that one can overload a vessel by introducing a large mass of water into it?

Are you still not aware that on the night the Estonia sank, it was overloaded because a large mass of water was allowed to enter into it?

I think we're about done here. You do not know what you're talking about.
The maximum capacity of water on the car deck of the Estonia is 18,000 tonnes, thus it is balanced out by the hull.
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Old 16th October 2021, 03:27 AM   #3556
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Just roll it enough to put one of the gunwales under, it will sink when it fills up with water.

Why are you obsessed with boats turning turtle?
Because if the Estonia only capsized because of water ingress into the car deck, the list of 40° would have caused it to capsize belly up, not immediately sink, although it would have sunk eventually as the water filled the air spaces of the superstructure. The windows in a ship are not like house or shop windows they are tough reinforced glass designed not to break even under extreme pressure.

Frogmen had to cut away the glass on the bridge with oxy-acetyline in order to enter.

So much for the JAIC assumption of the windows having broken when in contact with water pressure.
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Old 16th October 2021, 03:28 AM   #3557
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The maximum capacity of water on the car deck of the Estonia is 18,000 tonnes, thus it is balanced out by the hull.
Balanced out? Which two things do you have in mind that are balanced here, and what is the significance of their being balanced?

If you mean the weight of seawater which might fill the volume of the car deck is roughly equivalent to the displacement of the ship, then what if anything should that tell us?
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Old 16th October 2021, 03:30 AM   #3558
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is your evidence for this?

ship's turning right over and staying afloat are very rare. If a ship goes to 90° it usually goes under.

It is difficult (but not impossible) to find examples of ships floating upside down for any time at all.
Er, the MS Jan Heweliusz a good comparator to the Estonia and in a terrible unseaworthy state that I believe the owners were charged with manslaughter. Yet this ramshackle ferry stayed afloat turtled for five days, nonetheless.
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Old 16th October 2021, 03:31 AM   #3559
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What does Vasa have to do with anything?

Bulkheads will limit flooding but only if they are sealed. If there are openings then water will flood through.
If machinery spaces flood then there very well may not be enough buoyancy in other compartments to keep a ship afloat.

If water is flooding down from higher decks in to compartments then bulkheads will not help.

In the case of Estonia the thousands of tons of water on the car deck heeled the ship over submerging openings that allowed flooding of lower compartments and water gained entry from above through open stairwells and ventilators in to machinery spaces and accommodation.
Kurm Sept 2021 found the passenger car deck doors intact and shut.
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Old 16th October 2021, 03:32 AM   #3560
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Yes but they were mainly rowing vessels, the sail was an auxiliary only used when conditions were right. It still applies to them though, an inexperienced skipper or a sudden blow up could capsize them like any other sailing ship.
Yes, and they could hang on to the keel of the upturned boat and even right it.
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