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Tags Coronavirus , Coronavirus conspiracies , diseases , medical conspiracies

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Old 10th October 2021, 09:15 AM   #441
eerok
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Yes, I understand the logic pertaining to the leaky experimental gene therapy.
If you're referring to the approved medical treatment for preventing covid, you should say so rather than making a fool of yourself.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
I had it on none other than the word of Joe Biden that if I took the vaccine, I would have been safe and that we would have gotten to herd immunity, and the pandemic would have gone away. It seems that was a lie.
That's your lie, not Biden's. You must have noticed by now that straw man arguments just make you look bad.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
What about an immune system that is primed by natural immunity, that has created antibodies not just for one spike protein antigen, but for all of the antigens that it was exposed to as a result of being infected by a wild, live virus?
You could get sick and die, or get sick and suffer from long-term symptoms. This is simply because your quack remedies are ineffective.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
So, in other words, the promise of herd immunity by vaccination was either a lie that they knew was a lie in advance, sold to the public in order to sell them a lifetime of booster shots and subscription immunity, or they didn't know that Coronaviruses were highly mutagenic and vaccine-resistant in the first place. What do you think, "skeptics"?
Once again, you're the one spreading lies. No one promised herd immunity, but it's still true that vaccination is the only clear path to achieving it.
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Old 10th October 2021, 09:22 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Yes, I understand the logic pertaining to the leaky experimental gene therapy. It's repeated ad nauseam. I had it on none other than the word of Joe Biden that if I took the vaccine, I would have been safe and that we would have gotten to herd immunity, and the pandemic would have gone away. It seems that was a lie.
I very much doubt Biden said any such thing, as it was made clear from the start that the vaccines could not be 100% effective. They do, however, make you very much safer than those who don't get vaccinated.

The percentage of a population required to be vaccinated to reach herd immunity was estimated at about 80-90% for the original variants, which very few countries have yet reached. Unfortunately for the far more infectious delta variant the percentage is even higher.

Quote:
What about an immune system that is primed by natural immunity, that has created antibodies not just for one spike protein antigen, but for all of the antigens that it was exposed to as a result of being infected by a wild, live virus?
Yes, that will also give you the advantages given by the vaccines. For a while, anyway, as natural immunity will also fade over time. Then you can reprime your immune system by either getting Covid again or getting vaccinated. I would recommend the latter.

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So, in other words, the promise of herd immunity by vaccination was either a lie that they knew was a lie in advance, sold to the public in order to sell them a lifetime of booster shots and subscription immunity, or they didn't know that Coronaviruses were highly mutagenic and vaccine-resistant in the first place. What do you think, "skeptics"?
I think scientists make the best estimates and predictions they can based on the information available to them at the time.
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Old 10th October 2021, 09:22 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
If the "vaccines" do not prevent infection/transmission and only reduce symptoms/death, then the herd immunity-by-vaccination is an abject lie. This means that there is no (good) reason to use vaccine mandates, at all, ever, anywhere. It means that the people who over-assess their risk of death or severe symptoms from Covid and who under-assess their risk of death or severe symptoms from the mRNA experimental gene therapies should be free to make that personal health decision on their own, as the people who choose to be part of the control group should also be free to make that decision, since if they make the wrong decision it is only their own health at stake.

You understand this basic logic, right? So if there is no good reason for the vaccine mandates, then why are governments, corporations, and media engaged in the hard sell?
You keep making the same mistake. If you understood basic logic, then you'd know that if your premises are wrong, your conclusions are not supported.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Most of the anti-vaxxers aren't politically aligned with the jabtards. Why not just let us die off, if turns out we made the wrong decision?

Why is there so much virtue signaling and threats from jabtards, when getting jabbed has no hope of resulting in herd immunity from an endemic Coronavirus?
You are creating and spreading variants. It's clear that your "freedoms" are more important to you than the safety of others, but you can't expect not to get called on it.
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Old 10th October 2021, 09:24 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Well, for one thing, those who do not get the "jab" and become ill with Covid become breeding grounds for variants that are less effectively fought by the vaccine. Those of us you so brilliantly label as "jabtards" did not get sick and did not, therefore, become hosts for mutation. Here in Vermont, where vaccination rates are very high and the disease was held in check for a while, we're also seeing a surge, owing almost entirely to the delta variant, combined with the waning of some vaccine protection. If the geniuses who come up with such mature theories as yourself had gotten vaccinated sooner, I suspect we'd all have been better off, though we might not have gained such an important insight into the finer points of cognitive dissonance and the back side of human nature. Thank you for that, anyway.
People who get exposed to (and survive, admittedly) the wild virus get what is called in germ theory "sterilizing immunity", which is superior to non-sterilizing "immunity" offered by the leaky mRNA experimental therapies. The people who obtain sterilizing immunity are not responsible for mutating viruses, because the virus is utterly deactivated in them!

In contrast, many experts are warning that it is the vaccinated who are serving as virus factories, through a process called "escape mutation", and which has already been scientifically observed and confirmed in vaccinated poultry with Marek's disease.

What if you have it completely backwards? What if you're wrong, and all of the virtue signaling jabtards are advocating something with consequences far worse than what would otherwise have naturally occured with sars-cov-2? Is that even a possibility in your mind, or are you absolutely certain that it isn't?
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Old 10th October 2021, 09:26 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
You keep making the same mistake. If you understood basic logic, then you'd know that if your premises are wrong, your conclusions are not supported.
Which premises are wrong? Be specific.

Quote:


You are creating and spreading variants. It's clear that your "freedoms" are more important to you than the safety of others, but you can't expect not to get called on it.
Prove it. Maybe you are creating and spreading variants.

My freedom (and yours, incidentally), is more important than your illusory safety.
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Old 10th October 2021, 09:34 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I very much doubt Biden said any such thing, as it was made clear from the start that the vaccines could not be 100% effective. They do, however, make you very much safer than those who don't get vaccinated.
You don't know that they make me very much safer, because the long term isn't here yet. The intermediate term isn't even here yet. You're essentially a cult-member parroting a cult mantra.

Quote:

The percentage of a population required to be vaccinated to reach herd immunity was estimated at about 80-90% for the original variants, which very few countries have yet reached. Unfortunately for the far more infectious delta variant the percentage is even higher.
Unfortunately, everything we were told about herd immunity was a lie, because the delta variant was no surprise. Everyone who knows anything about viruses knew that Coronaviruses were highly mutagenic from the start.

Quote:

Yes, that will also give you the advantages given by the vaccines. For a while, anyway, as natural immunity will also fade over time. Then you can reprime your immune system by either getting Covid again or getting vaccinated. I would recommend the latter.
Evidence that natural immunity will fade over time? The actual evidence is that durable immunity can last a lifetime. It isn't a function of the immune system itself, but viral mutation. The reason that natural immunity is superior, is because all of the viral antigens have to mutate in order for the antibodies to be rendered non-deactivating, as opposed to just the one spike protein antigen that the mRNA therapy produces. The "vaccines" fail just as soon as the virus mutates enough to produce a sufficiently diverse spike protein. In the worst case, not only do they fail, but they provoke an ADE response which causes infection of immune cells themselves, and results in very severe illness. Lets hope I'm wrong and that never happens.
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Old 10th October 2021, 09:41 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Which premises are wrong? Be specific.
Your conspiracist baloney, including but not limited to your distrust of authority, contempt for science, lies about herd immunity, reliance on unreliable, politicized media sources, lies about the nature of the vaccines and the intentions behind their creation... That's just what I read from you today. It's all nonsense, and your conclusions are nonsense.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Prove it. Maybe you are creating and spreading variants.

My freedom (and yours, incidentally), is more important than your illusory safety.
Your freedom to invent your own facts does not compel me to accept them.
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Old 10th October 2021, 09:53 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
You don't know that they make me very much safer, because the long term isn't here yet. The intermediate term isn't even here yet. You're essentially a cult-member parroting a cult mantra.
They sure as hell made the people who would have died from Covid by now if they hadn't been vaccinated safer. They're saving lives every day.

There is no good reason to think these vaccines are suddenly going to start killing people in 10, 20, 30 years time.

Quote:
Unfortunately, everything we were told about herd immunity was a lie, because the delta variant was no surprise. Everyone who knows anything about viruses knew that Coronaviruses were highly mutagenic from the start.
Indeed, I remember the warnings that such a variant was a possibility. No lies, just a range of predictions. If you were reading sources that didn't make that clear you should have been reading better sources.

Quote:
Evidence that natural immunity will fade over time? The actual evidence is that durable immunity can last a lifetime. It isn't a function of the immune system itself, but viral mutation. The reason that natural immunity is superior, is because all of the viral antigens have to mutate in order for the antibodies to be rendered non-deactivating, as opposed to just the one spike protein antigen that the mRNA therapy produces. The "vaccines" fail just as soon as the virus mutates enough to produce a sufficiently diverse spike protein. In the worst case, not only do they fail, but they provoke an ADE response which causes infection of immune cells themselves, and results in very severe illness. Lets hope I'm wrong and that never happens.
Some natural immunities last a long time, others need regular boosters. Last I heard no one knew for sure which category Covid 19 was going to fall into, hence the current recommendation to be vaccinated.
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Old 10th October 2021, 09:56 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
To my knowledge, it hasn't either. But if and when it does, and it begins to cause serious illness, then how will we know and be able to confirm whether or not the illness was due to a vaccine-caused ADE response, or whether the leaky, non-sterilizing experimental mRNA gene therapy simply failed and led to another "breakthrough infection"?
Let's argue about how to diagnose an illness that no one has, with no concrete evidence beyond a hypothetical that anyone will have it? I'll leave that to greater thinkers than me.
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Old 10th October 2021, 10:20 AM   #450
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Gotta say, I love it when the argument is framed in overheated terms of "protecting our rights," when rights are a thing that is shared within a society to serve it but that childish anti-vaxxers can only see as a selfish entitlement to spite society.
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Old 10th October 2021, 10:29 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Gotta say, I love it when the argument is framed in overheated terms of "protecting our rights," when rights are a thing that is shared within a society to serve it but that childish anti-vaxxers can only see as a selfish entitlement to spite society.
It has become right-wing canon that "protecting my rights" means depriving others of theirs. Covid conspiracism is just another example of this.
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Old 10th October 2021, 10:38 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
That backup is/will having an effect on the economy as a whole not just your plastic models.
I know.

Here's the thing; the Chinese have good good doctors, and it is in their interest to have their economic engine running at 100% capacity. They are a country with questionable labor practices (to be polite), and yet they keeping a lid on all aspects of social interaction, and masks are mandated by law.

Seems like if COVID-19 was no big deal they would be the first country to power-through the possible down-sides (high death rates, clogged hospitals, long term health issues) to get back to normal and get the cash rolling back in.
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Old 10th October 2021, 11:10 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
If you're referring to the approved medical treatment for preventing covid, you should say so rather than making a fool of yourself.
Oh! Thank goodness the leaky, non-sterilizing experimental mRNA gene therapies masquerading as "vaccines" have been approved!

Quote:

That's your lie, not Biden's. You must have noticed by now that straw man arguments just make you look bad.
Fact Check: Did Joe Biden Spread Misinformation on COVID Vaccines?

"True. Joe Biden spread misinformation about COVID vaccines at a CNN town hall on Wednesday."
Lol.

Quote:

You could get sick and die, or get sick and suffer from long-term symptoms. This is simply because your quack remedies are ineffective.
They were effective for me! The jury is still out on whether you will survive this long term experiment. Good luck with that!

Quote:

Once again, you're the one spreading lies. No one promised herd immunity, but it's still true that vaccination is the only clear path to achieving it.
Lol. You don't know much about viruses, do you.
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Old 10th October 2021, 11:13 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Your conspiracist baloney, including but not limited to your distrust of authority, contempt for science, lies about herd immunity, reliance on unreliable, politicized media sources, lies about the nature of the vaccines and the intentions behind their creation... That's just what I read from you today. It's all nonsense, and your conclusions are nonsense.
That isn't specific. I'm going to assume that you don't know what the word specific means
Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 12
since you have neither a specific nor substantial rebuttal to offer.
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Old 10th October 2021, 11:17 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Let's argue about how to diagnose an illness that no one has, with no concrete evidence beyond a hypothetical that anyone will have it? I'll leave that to greater thinkers than me.
ADE responses were observed in animal testing of mRNA, and animals died as a result. That fact probably puts the risk in humans a lot closer to likely than hypothetical, wouldn't you say?
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Old 10th October 2021, 11:23 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
ADE responses were observed in animal testing of mRNA, and animals died as a result. That fact probably puts the risk in humans a lot closer to likely than hypothetical, wouldn't you say?
Source
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Old 10th October 2021, 11:24 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Gotta say, I love it when the argument is framed in overheated terms of "protecting our rights," when rights are a thing that is shared within a society to serve it but that childish anti-vaxxers can only see as a selfish entitlement to spite society.
The problem, is that you and all of the other nascent totalitarians who seek to force vaccine mandates upon everyone, is that you don't know everything.

We generally know the risks of Covid now. We know the Infection Fatality Rate of (let me repeat it) .0026. It seems likely that Covid mortality is inflated, and that Covid testing is deflated. So not only is that already very small number overstated, it's also highly skewed by the fact that the vast majority of people who are actually dying as a result of this disease are either elderly, have co-morbidities, or both. Which means, taking all this into account, if you are relatively young and healthy, your risk of dying from Covid if infected is far less than .0026!

On the other hand, experimental mRNA gene therapy is, well, experimental. You don't know the long term consequences of it. You act like you're certain, you threaten those who don't want it, and proudly signal your virtue at how much you think you are helping society by willingly have this substance injected into your body, you believe the FDA, the CDC, and the pharmaceuticals who bleat about its safety, but at the end of the day, you know nothing. You have faith, akin to religious faith or that of a cult member, and you're willing to put everyone on the planet at risk as a result.
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Old 10th October 2021, 11:28 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
ADE responses were observed in animal testing of mRNA, and animals died as a result. That fact probably puts the risk in humans a lot closer to likely than hypothetical, wouldn't you say?
Got a source for this one? Does this apply to the Covid vaccines? Sources
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Last edited by beachnut; 10th October 2021 at 11:29 AM. Reason: NYJ 17 ATL 27 4th 2:04 left to play
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Old 10th October 2021, 11:41 AM   #459
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Quote:
Neither COVID-19 disease nor the new COVID-19 vaccines have shown evidence of causing ADE. People infected with SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, have not been likely to develop ADE upon repeat exposure. This is true of other coronaviruses as well. Likewise, studies of vaccines in the laboratory with animals or in the clinical trials in people have not found evidence of ADE.

Following the experience with dengue vaccine, early during the COVID-19 pandemic, concerns about ADE were top of mind. During this time, a few scientists tried to predict whether ADE would occur by evaluating genes for similarities and differences. While this was a useful approach at a time when we did not have much information about what might happen in people, we have since accumulated several lines of clinical evidence that confirm ADE is not an issue for COVID-19 or the vaccines:

People who are infected with SARS-CoV-2, or its variants, do not become more susceptible to ADE.
Many vaccinated people have been exposed to the virus, and its variants, and most of them have developed no disease or mild symptoms. A very small number have experienced more severe disease (“breakthrough infection”), and these individuals have not shown evidence of ADE.
Unfortunately, some people continue to spread misinformation suggesting that ADE is an ongoing concern for COVID-19 vaccines; however, scientists and clinicians are continuing to monitor COVID-19 infections and, to date, no evidence to validate this concern has emerged.
Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia

https://www.chop.edu/centers-program...t-and-vaccines
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Old 10th October 2021, 11:43 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post

Yeah, I know. Patients are usually given oxygen, then High Flow Nasal Cannula (HFNC), and then intubated as a last resort. With subsidies as high as $39,000 for ventilator usage, I'll leave it to the other wonderful pseudo-skeptics of this form to decide whether there is a strong incentive to move to stage three as quickly as possible.
So why is the same procedure used in countries that don't have a private medical system that has 'subsidies' to use a ventilator?
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Old 10th October 2021, 11:49 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
ADE responses were observed in animal testing of mRNA, and animals died as a result. That fact probably puts the risk in humans a lot closer to likely than hypothetical, wouldn't you say?
This paper in Nature Microbiology, discussed animal ADE and associated immune disfunction back before human mRNA vaccine trials were producing results. Worth a read. I was initially concerned ADE might be a material problem but as the Phase 3 trials concluded I felt comfortable enough to get vaccinated as soon as eligible.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

As for herd immunity, it was pretty clear when the more infectious Alpha came out that it was unlikely and Delta has pretty much killed it. It's going to be around and there isn't much anyone can do about it. Singapore has a totally Covid-19 naive population and it's spreading there. They also track vaccinated breakthroughs. CFR is quite low in Singapore as most of the unvaccinated are young and the highly vaccinated elderly are seeing significant vaccine protection against serious illness.
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Old 10th October 2021, 12:30 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
People who get exposed to (and survive, admittedly) the wild virus get what is called in germ theory "sterilizing immunity", which is superior to non-sterilizing "immunity" offered by the leaky mRNA experimental therapies. The people who obtain sterilizing immunity are not responsible for mutating viruses, because the virus is utterly deactivated in them!

In contrast, many experts are warning that it is the vaccinated who are serving as virus factories, through a process called "escape mutation", and which has already been scientifically observed and confirmed in vaccinated poultry with Marek's disease.

What if you have it completely backwards? What if you're wrong, and all of the virtue signaling jabtards are advocating something with consequences far worse than what would otherwise have naturally occured with sars-cov-2? Is that even a possibility in your mind, or are you absolutely certain that it isn't?
What if you have it completelhy backwards, as I would expect anyone with lack of perspicacity to call people "virtue signaling jabtards?" I mean, really, does your position require you to be so impolite?

I surmise that even if a person becomes immune after surviving Covid, that person is emitting Covid virus before it has finished, and, if what I've read is true, that includes new variants. Not getting it in the first place seems a better bet.

Oh, and by the way, in what possible way is one person saying he got vaccinated more "virtue signalling" than your posting of arrogant assumption and prideful conterariness? Whatever right wing demogogue popularized that term ought to get a special award for the kind of stupidity that worsens our world.
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Old 10th October 2021, 01:08 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
The problem, is that you and all of the other nascent totalitarians who seek to force vaccine mandates upon everyone, is that you don't know everything.

We generally know the risks of Covid now. We know the Infection Fatality Rate of (let me repeat it) .0026. It seems likely that Covid mortality is inflated, and that Covid testing is deflated. So not only is that already very small number overstated, it's also highly skewed by the fact that the vast majority of people who are actually dying as a result of this disease are either elderly, have co-morbidities, or both. Which means, taking all this into account, if you are relatively young and healthy, your risk of dying from Covid if infected is far less than .0026!

On the other hand, experimental mRNA gene therapy is, well, experimental. You don't know the long term consequences of it. You act like you're certain, you threaten those who don't want it, and proudly signal your virtue at how much you think you are helping society by willingly have this substance injected into your body, you believe the FDA, the CDC, and the pharmaceuticals who bleat about its safety, but at the end of the day, you know nothing. You have faith, akin to religious faith or that of a cult member, and you're willing to put everyone on the planet at risk as a result.
Now that is some world-class virtue signaling; you're a real superhero.
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Old 10th October 2021, 01:09 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
We know the Infection Fatality Rate of (let me repeat it) .0026.
You can repeat that as many times as you like, it won't make it true.
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Old 10th October 2021, 01:28 PM   #465
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Less than 1% of people who contracted Polio were paralyzed by it. Yet when the vaccine came out people could not wait to get it. Of course, there was no fear mongering anti-Vaxx industry at that time.
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Old 10th October 2021, 01:36 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
If the "vaccines" do not prevent infection/transmission and only reduce symptoms/death, then ...
They do reduce infection and transmission, and they very greatly reduce symptoms and deaths.

Although less effective against the delta variant than the one they were originally designed for, they're still doing well.
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:04 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So why is the same procedure used in countries that don't have a private medical system that has 'subsidies' to use a ventilator?
Whether intubation is used in other countries that don't have such subsidies is irrelevant, what's relevant is that intubation of Covid patients is usually fatal, and is incentivized by subsidies.
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:05 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You can repeat that as many times as you like, it won't make it true.
Oh really? What is the IFR then?
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:06 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Now that is some world-class virtue signaling; you're a real superhero.
I don't think you understand what virtue signaling means. However, I am not virtue signaling, I just want you to leave me the **** alone, and leave my health decisions to me.
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:08 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Less than 1% of people who contracted Polio were paralyzed by it. Yet when the vaccine came out people could not wait to get it. Of course, there was no fear mongering anti-Vaxx industry at that time.
Stupid is as stupid ever was:

The Cutter Incident: How America's First Polio Vaccine Led to a Growing Vaccine Crisis
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:11 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
ADE responses were observed in animal testing of mRNA, and animals died as a result. That fact probably puts the risk in humans a lot closer to likely than hypothetical, wouldn't you say?
Source?

How long does it take to find a source in the world of woo?

Is this a problem with the current Covid 19 vaccines, or was the research on this topic a youtube delusional BS quest of woo?
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:13 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
I don't think you understand what virtue signaling means.
You mean aside from being one of those catch-phrases that people use to transmit their membership in a certain in-group, like 'social justice warrior', 'snowflake', 'class warfare' or 'activist judge'?
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:13 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
And how is this related to Covid 19 Vaccines?

Oh, the Gish Gallop, or is this moving the goal posts
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:13 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
What if you have it completelhy backwards, as I would expect anyone with lack of perspicacity to call people "virtue signaling jabtards?" I mean, really, does your position require you to be so impolite?
If I'm wrong, then I suffer the consequences. If you're wrong, then the billions you would force this poison suffer the consequences.

Quote:

I surmise that even if a person becomes immune after surviving Covid, that person is emitting Covid virus before it has finished, and, if what I've read is true, that includes new variants. Not getting it in the first place seems a better bet.
And if the mRNA'ed guinea pigs are causing escape mutation, then they're making what is already an overhyped pandemic much much worse.

Quote:
Oh, and by the way, in what possible way is one person saying he got vaccinated more "virtue signalling" than your posting of arrogant assumption and prideful conterariness? Whatever right wing demogogue popularized that term ought to get a special award for the kind of stupidity that worsens our world.
I'm "contrary" because I'm living in a world where totalitarians such as in Lithuania are forcing people to submit to experimental meds to buy groceries in a grocery store. Rest assured, we will have civil war and lots of people will die from lead poisoning of the high-speed velocity kind if this occurs in the US.
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:18 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Oh really? What is the IFR then?
We'll never know exactly, but most likely somewhere between 0.5% and 1%.
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:21 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
ADE responses were observed in animal testing of mRNA, and animals died as a result. That fact probably puts the risk in humans a lot closer to likely than hypothetical, wouldn't you say?
There are results from animal studies that don't translate over to humans, so you have to look at each case and see if there is a connection. For instance,

Quote:
The majority of oncology drugs that proved successful in treating tumors within rodents fail to have the same response in humans, with most tested therapeutics never reaching the marketplace.
Presumably, similar failures occur for risk of disease.

source

However, I'm bowing out now on this point, as I will exceed my lay expertise pretty quickly.
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:27 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Pathetic and desperate. You have to drag up a ancient history and try to make it relevant. It’s just old school anti-vaxxer propaganda you’ve dredged up like every other clownshoe who went against basic medical sense.
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:28 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Everyone who knows anything about viruses knew that Coronaviruses were highly mutagenic from the start.
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:31 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Whether intubation is used in other countries that don't have such subsidies is irrelevant, what's relevant is that intubation of Covid patients is usually fatal, and is incentivized by subsidies.
What 'incentives' are provided to NHS hospitals?

It is usually fatal because it is a last resort for the severest cases.
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Old 10th October 2021, 02:32 PM   #480
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
This paper in Nature Microbiology, discussed animal ADE and associated immune disfunction back before human mRNA vaccine trials were producing results. Worth a read. I was initially concerned ADE might be a material problem but as the Phase 3 trials concluded I felt comfortable enough to get vaccinated as soon as eligible.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5
From your own link:

Quote:
Risk of ADE for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines
Evidence for vaccine-induced ADE in animal models of SARS-CoV is conflicting, and raises potential safety concerns. Liu et al. found that while macaques immunized with a modified vaccinia Ankara viral vector expressing the SARS-CoV S protein had reduced viral replication after challenge, anti-S IgG also enhanced pulmonary infiltration of inflammatory macrophages and resulted in more severe lung injury compared to unvaccinated animals66.

They further showed that the presence of anti-S IgG prior to viral clearance skewed the wound-healing response of macrophages into a pro-inflammatory response. In another study, Wang et al. immunized macaques with four B-cell peptide epitopes of the SARS-CoV S protein and demonstrated that while three peptides elicited antibodies that protected macaques from viral challenge, one of the peptide vaccines induced antibodies that enhanced infection in vitro and resulted in more severe lung pathology in vivo67.
And:

Quote:
SARS-CoV immunization studies in animal models have thus produced results that vary greatly in terms of protective efficacy, immunopathology and potential ADE, depending on the vaccine strategy employed. Despite this, vaccines that elicit neutralizing antibodies against the S protein reliably protect animals from SARS-CoV challenge without evidence of enhancement of infection or disease71,72,73. These data suggest that human immunization strategies for SARS-CoV-2 that elicit high neutralizing antibody titres have a high chance of success with minimal risk of ADE. For example, subunit vaccines that can elicit S-specific neutralizing antibodies should present lower ADE risks (especially against S stabilized in the prefusion conformation, to reduce the presentation of non-neutralizing epitopes8). These modern immunogen design approaches should reduce potential immunopathology associated with non-neutralizing antibodies.
From what I've read, the S protein "vaccines" won't be an ADE risk until the virus mutates enough to where the antibodies coat the mutated S protein, but are non-neutralizing. Then the macrophages consume this non-neutralized virus and the immune system itself becomes infected, and compromised. But we can't expect this to happen until the virus mutates sufficiently, so the jury is still out.

I know the risks of Covid, and I have already had it, and have natural immunity, so I want no part of this other risk. Stop trying to force it on me.
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