IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags cancel culture

Reply
Old 4th October 2021, 08:18 PM   #161
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,290
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
3. I ANSWERED THAT QUESTION DIRECTLY IN THE VERY FIRST ******* LINE OF MY ANSWER - "I wouldn't trust an academic who attempts to publish a fake paper...."
EC wasn't asking about people who publish "fake papers," though.

Allow me to demonstrate how to answer her yes/no question.

EC: Do you trust the other academics who publish post-modern nonsense in journals that can't tell the difference between post-modern nonsense and completely and utter nonsense that uses post-modern jargon?

Damion: No. I don't trust the academics who publish in those journals because they are not advancing knowledge in a replicable and verifiable manner, so far as I can tell.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

Last edited by d4m10n; 4th October 2021 at 08:30 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:39 PM   #162
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
EC wasn't asking about people who publish "fake papers," though.

Allow me to demonstrate how to answer her yes/no question.

EC: Do you trust the other academics who publish post-modern nonsense in journals that can't tell the difference between post-modern nonsense and completely and utter nonsense that uses post-modern jargon?

Damion: No. I don't trust the academics who publish in those journals because they are not advancing knowledge in a replicable and verifiable manner, so far as I can tell.
THERE WAS NO "YES" OR "NO" IN THE QUESTION!!

STOP ******* WELL LYING!!!!!!!!

And FYI... I regard "Do you trust the other academics who publish post-modern nonsense in journals that can't tell the difference between post-modern nonsense and completely and utter nonsense that uses post-modern jargon? " is just a wordy way of saying "Do you trust the other academics who publish fake papers"

Its all the same to me... I do not trust dishonest *****!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 4th October 2021 at 08:45 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:40 PM   #163
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,290
Please click the link, it explains what kind of questions I'm talking about.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:52 PM   #164
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Please click the link, it explains what kind of questions I'm talking about.
I clicked the link, and I totally disagree with what it says

If you want to ask me a question that limits me to a yes or no answer, precede the question with "yes or no" I will not answer such questions because they are preloaded in an attempt to trap the target into giving the response the asker wants.

I refuse to be limited by preloaded questions. If you don't like that.. tough!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 4th October 2021 at 08:54 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:53 PM   #165
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,290
I'll leave it to EC to clarify whether she was asking (1) for an affirmative/negative response and (2) about fake papers.

Good night all
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:55 AM   #166
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,071
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Did you forget there was a witness?
Witnesses don't count, unless they're police or fascists, remember?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 06:02 AM   #167
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,071
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm sure the cancel culture pundits will be along any time now to condemn these racist and censorious groups going around trying to mass purge books from public schools:



https://www.thedailybeast.com/far-ri...luther-king-jr
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Let's wait for Bari Weiss to have this cancelled academic on her substack.



https://theintercept.com/2021/09/28/...demic-freedom/
The silence from the Usual Suspects in this thread is noticeable.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 06:04 AM   #168
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,071
I note that yesterday was the 85th anniversary of this great act of "cancel culture".
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 10:19 AM   #169
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 17,109
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Certainly not me.

I have nothing but contempt and disdain for the whole field of Postmodernist Philosophy. Its full of pumped up self-important wankers who spend their lives pontificating on things little or no importance to anyone other than the rest of the pumped up self-important wankers. Most of them wouldn't know **** from clay even if they could smell it.
Out of curiosity, how does your view toward postmodern wankery play into your views on CRT, antiracism, and gender ideology?
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 10:45 AM   #170
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,290
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Witnesses don't count, unless they're police or fascists, remember?
This is disingenuous nonsense. The witness could've been:

1) Affirming that "Go back to your hood." was a substantively accurate paraphrase of "Go back to Long Island City."

2) Answering a leading question in a way that makes him look morally righteous.

3) Simply mistaken. (As we know eyewitnesses often are.)

Other possibilities may well exist, aside from the wholly unskeptical idea that this bystander must've been correctly affirming a literal exact quote, which is the sort of credulity I'd expect from Biblical apologists.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 10:53 AM   #171
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,941
Sturgeon's Law: "90 percent of everything is crap."

A typically valid retort any time a particular genre, field of study, or area of interest is said to be dominated by poor quality. It holds true here, as well.

I've often held that the worst thing that can possibly happen to a niche interest is for it to become popular and mainstream.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 5th October 2021 at 10:56 AM.
Delphic Oracle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 01:43 PM   #172
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Out of curiosity, how does your view toward postmodern wankery play into your views on CRT, antiracism, and gender ideology?
I'm glad you asked. I have very radical views on this for which I make no apologies whatsoever...

RANT! CRT wouldn't even be a thing if history were taught properly in schools, and from early enough... and by properly, I mean the warts and all facts about history. No pretending certain things didn't happen - nothing gets left out. In the case of the US, slavery, the genocide of Native Americans, the Founding Fathers, the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the whole shebang. Teach history as a series of facts, causes and effects, in a dispassionate way, and you don't even get to CRT.

Anti-racism has nothing to do post modern wankery. Again, teach civics in schools right from the get go, and keep religion and politics completely out of schools (with politics maybe only being taught in the last two years). Teach that ALL people are equal regardless of race, ethnicity or skin colour, and keep teaching it and indoctrinating it for the entire length of kids time in schools, so that they live it and breathe it. If you want to eliminate racism, make life for the racists a living hell.

Gender Ideology has nothing with that wankery either. Let people be who they are and stop making a big deal about it. The biggest barrier to allowing people to be who they are is religion, so ban it from being taught in schools. Any teachers that don't comply, fire them! Any school that doesn't comply, close it. Any private school that doesn't comply, withdraw all their funding, and if they are able to get private funding to continue operating, withdraw recognition of all qualification of academic achievement the school provides.


Well, you asked!

Its time to stop playing nice with racists & bigots - postmodern wankery has enabled them by legitimising them - it has achieved absolutely nothing towards a more diverse and harmonious society - all it has done is allowed a bunch of asshat, so-called "professors" to pontificate on BS, and to build reputations among all the other asshat, so-called "professors". It has wasted millions of hours of classroom time, and billions of dollars of University resources that could have been spent on useful things such as medical, environmental and other "hard" scientific research.

The most useful thing Universities could do to advance the human race is to permanently close all their "super-soft subject" departments; Art and art history, Media Studies, Gender Studies, Photography, Religious Studies, Psychology, Sociology. and just stick the the core subjects that produce students who will be useful to society - Biology, Chemistry, Medicine, History, Maths and Physics etc.

I fully expect to be labelled a philistine or a cretin for these views. I will proudly wear that label as a badge of honour!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 5th October 2021 at 02:12 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 01:48 PM   #173
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is disingenuous nonsense. The witness could've been:

1) Affirming that "Go back to your hood." was a substantively accurate paraphrase of "Go back to Long Island City."

2) Answering a leading question in a way that makes him look morally righteous.

3) Simply mistaken. (As we know eyewitnesses often are.)

Other possibilities may well exist, aside from the wholly unskeptical idea that this bystander must've been correctly affirming a literal exact quote, which is the sort of credulity I'd expect from Biblical apologists.
All of which is pure, idle speculation on your part, and for which you have not a single scrap of evidence in support.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. What has been given is at hand - it stands undisputed as fact, and it remains that way unless, and until you can prove it is not.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 01:55 PM   #174
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,007
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Gender studies, almost all critical theories, and a handful of other cultural studies are all based on postmodern philosophy. They're all children of that movement.
Stipulating that this is true, it would mean it's simply not necessary to say "postmodern gender studies". There's no other kind.
mumblethrax is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 02:10 PM   #175
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,290
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
All of which is pure, idle speculation on your part, and for which you have not a single scrap of evidence in support.
The unreliability of eyewitnesses is certainly not speculative on my part, I got those ideas from an expert in the field who spoke at TAM.

That aside, I am curious to know why you have concluded that the unnamed witness is affirming an exact quote rather than a substantively correct paraphrase of what the canceled woman actually said. I've seen no reason to assume one or the other scenario is the correct one.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

Last edited by d4m10n; 5th October 2021 at 02:14 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 02:55 PM   #176
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 17,109
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Stipulating that this is true, it would mean it's simply not necessary to say "postmodern gender studies". There's no other kind.
Sure? I didn't say that, so I'm not sure if you're arguing with me or just making a general statement?
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 03:38 PM   #177
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,007
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sure? I didn't say that, so I'm not sure if you're arguing with me or just making a general statement?
I didn't claim you said it.

I'm saying that postmodernism, as people tend to use it here, doesn't have much meaning beyond signaling disapproval.
mumblethrax is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 03:59 PM   #178
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,257
Reactionaries are trying to get teachers and librarians arrested for stocking the shelves with books that mention sex or the existence of gay people.

Quote:
The threat of prosecution over book controversies isn’t limited to Ohio. In Wyoming’s conservative Campbell County, prosecutors are weighing charges against librarians because of a criminal complaint over sex education and LGBT-related books stocked in sections for children or young adults, the Associated Press reported on Friday.

The list of challenged books, which include a children’s book called How Do You Make a Baby? and a book aimed at teenagers called Dating and Sex: A Guide for the 21st Century Teen Boy, prompted a complaint to a local sheriff’s department. Now prosecutors in the county are considering charges against library employees, according to the AP, as well as the appointment of a special prosecutor.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside...-as-child-porn

Quote:
Caldwell-Stone pointed out that the books in question in each case don’t meet any legal definition of obscenity or child pornography and are all available through Amazon and major bookstores.

“We’re just deeply concerned about this effort to prosecute librarians and educators for providing constitutionally protected mainstream materials,” Caldwell-Stone said.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 5th October 2021 at 04:01 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 04:18 PM   #179
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,727
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Mmm.... I don't think you're accurate in assuming that nobody thinks it's a valuable field. It's a topic taught in most major universities, it's a field with a LOT of work being done in it (mostly crappy ******** work IMO, but still), and there are a lot of papers being published on that topic. So clearly someone thinks it's valuable - valuable enough to have entire publications devoted to the topic. And those publications get referenced by people who use them as support for their ideology on the topic of gender.

I do, however, agree with your conclusion: nobody will change their minds. True believers will still be true believers, apostates will still be apostates. Personally, I think that this sort of demonstration *should* change people's minds... but I'm an apostate.
I think absolutely nobody should be persuaded either way by B,L and P. The reason is because the different studies went to differenr journals of presumably differing quality and their may have been differing ways in which they were accepted.

Take the dog park one. On the face of it, there is nothing obviously absurd about writing a paper which observes the behaviour of dog owners and seeing when they intervene to stop their male dog raping another male dog or allow their male dog to rape a female dog or intervene to stop fights etc... What dog owners permit and dissuade could say something about a culture. What makes this more pernicious, in my opinion, and not to the hoaxers' credit, is that they included "results" of data which they in fact wholly fabricated. So what apparently makes this paper ludicrous? Mostly the fact that there is heavy reference to feminist and queer theory. But this becomes question-begging. They already thought that such literature was ridiculous so getting it published in a journal related to field says nothing at all. This is not like the Sokal hoax, because B, L and P already admit that, unlike the Conceptual Penis hoax, they actually read and studied the relevant literature rather than, say, went to the postmodernism generator and copied and pasted the results. (They even say that they had initially tried to submit papers that did this but they all got rejected!!! That seems an important point that their cheerleaders overlook). So, I am not impressed by that particular hoax paper.

Similarly, I am not impressed by the one that was apparently based on Meine Kampf. They seem to think it is self-evidently ridiculous that a journal would publish a work from Hitler that has a feminist spin. However, as this Hitler scholar in Haaretz points out, it is utterly dishonest because they used a chapter from Meine Kampf that was about organizing a party and of course B, L and P had to remove so much to make it unrecognizable from its "source material" that this is what was left:

Quote:
So what did the text in the article accepted by Affilia actually look like? Was it, as Fox News claimed, a "feminist Mein Kampf", suggesting men should be treated the same way as Hitler victimized Jews?

It is surprising, to say the least, that none of the journalists reporting on the controversy actually bothered to compare the two texts. If they'd done so, they would have found that the Affilia article didn't contain anything that could be recognized as "Mein Kampf" even by a Hitler expert, let alone a lay person.

The best way to illustrate this is to highlight a section of what remained of Hitler's text, spread out as it was over several paragraphs on several pages:

[…] to appeal to […] contented and satisfied, […] to embrace […].

[…] half-measures, by […] a so-called objective standpoint, […] the goal […]. That is to say, […] in the sense […] many limitations, […]. […] countered only by an antidote, […] only the […]. […] people […] neither […] nor […]. […] abstract knowledge […] directs their […]. […] is where their […] lies. […] receptive […] in one of these two directions […] never to a […] between the two.

[…] emotional […] stability. […] than respect, […] is more […] than aversion, […] weakness) […], […] will […] power.

The future of a movement is […].

The lacunae between these preserved pieces of text were filled with material that was either re-written, or entirely new (including references to bona fide scholarship). This created the convincing illusion of an original philosophy paper. Neither the words nor the intent were comparable to "Mein Kampf"; indeed, the intent was the very opposite.
Now apparently Lindsay has responded in some hour and a half long podcast episode on "New Discourses", where he thinks he has discovered some trick by his critic of using the name "NSDAP" and then declares to his audience that he looked up NSDAP and discovered it meant "Nazi Party" (I'm not kidding, he really thought this was a gotcha!), and he reads out the meaning, claiming not to know what "Arbeiter" means. Hmmm... I begin to wonder if Lindsay is pretending to be as ignorant as he sounds.

So, honestly, a paper accepted by a journal that just basically talks about what a feminist movement should look like, isn't really that impressive either.

It's pretty obvious that this was a sensationalist stunt with so much dishonesty thrown in, that, like I said, I ended up perversely feeling a grudging admission that no, gender studies journals DON'T just publish any old tripe.

And really, the bottom of the barrel journals they picked exist in pretty much any field. This is how academics keep their jobs. It is known as "publish or perish". And most of these journals in special interests are read by almost nobody and are peer reviewed by volunteers who spend their unpaid time trying to be helpful to authors who are often not very good at writing (hence there is a lot of feedback that B, L and P gleefully cackled at in their videos).

This is why pretty much all fields are plagued with bad scholarship. But maybe you need to see some actual data rather than this kind of anecdotal "study" which you can do, if you like, by going to Retraction Watch and plugging in any subject and seeing how many papers have ended up retracted for problems with data:

Link

And, to beat a dead horse, just look at how many papers in the medical field are turning out to be costing people's lives. Look at the studies of ivermectin that turn out to be out and out fraud, yet Boghossian's buddies the Weinsteins happily trot them out to send their viewers galloping off to buy horse paste.

But no, the real moral panic is to do with some obscure unread publications like Fat Studies which are apparently taking over the universities (hasn't this left-wing take-over been happening since the 1960s?). So Boghossian runs off to cry on the shoulders of Glenn Beck and Dave Rubin because nobody takes his grievance studies thing seriously and because what he did was unethical and because he RESIGNED and hee wasn't cancelled, while Lindsay is busy tweeting anti-semitic, conspiracy theorizing, anti-vaxx, pro-crazy-loons-at-parents-meetings propaganda. Helen Pluckrose, I imagine, is probably wondering if she has joined a weird cult of nasty reactionary lunatics by mistake.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 04:20 PM   #180
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The unreliability of eyewitnesses is certainly not speculative on my part, I got those ideas from an expert in the field who spoke at TAM.

That aside, I am curious to know why you have concluded that the unnamed witness is affirming an exact quote rather than a substantively correct paraphrase of what the canceled woman actually said. I've seen no reason to assume one or the other scenario is the correct one.
I regard witnesses the same way as courts to - a witness is accepted as being truthful and accurate unless shown to be otherwise. I will assume the claim, as backed up by the witness, is valid, until such time as I am shown evidence to the contrary. I have always done things this way, and I always will.

I have the facts on my side here, you, on the other hand, are Vroomfondel.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 5th October 2021 at 04:21 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 04:22 PM   #181
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Reactionaries are trying to get teachers and librarians arrested for stocking the shelves with books that mention sex or the existence of gay people.



https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside...-as-child-porn

And of course, from the Usual Suspects here... there will be crickets!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 04:23 PM   #182
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,130
I regard "witnesses" the same way skeptics do: The null hypothesis holds until they provide evidence for their claims.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 04:27 PM   #183
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,727
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I didn't claim you said it.

I'm saying that postmodernism, as people tend to use it here, doesn't have much meaning beyond signaling disapproval.
Yeah, I think I may have said initially "right-wingers' characterization of what post-modernism is", but after a while it gets tedious typing all of that out.

If post-modernism is anything, I suppose the fundamental idea is a kind of self-defeating premise that there is no such thing as objective truth. It should be obvious why that is self-defeating, but then it becomes part of a two-step process of then arguing that whatever a "post-modernist" says is on an even footing with, say, the hard sciences. I think that this was the main target for Sokal, when critics of scientific objectivity tried to argue that science is no better at understanding the world than, say, critical theory. Julia Kristeva, for example, I believe that said E=MC2 was a sexed equation.

I think Sokal's point was perfectly well-made with his hoax, so I support it. However, these days, if you are trying to find someone arguing that there is objective scientific truth, and then there are some other, different important truths that may not actually be true, but are still true in an important sense, then who would be the poster child for this? Jordan Peterson of course. Nobody writes more like the right-wing reactionary idea of a post-modernist than he does. He blathers long and hard about Jung and Nietzsche and creates these incredible intellectual towers of ********, and the right-wingers, the reactionaries can't get enough of his total and utter drivel.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 04:45 PM   #184
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I regard "witnesses" the same way skeptics do: The null hypothesis holds until they provide evidence for their claims.
An in this case, the "null hypothesis" is that what was reported to have happened, actually happened until and unless it can be shown that it didn't.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/09...-attack-video/

This Karen is a racist. She got called out for her racism, and her boss fired her for it. Cancelled! Karma's a bitch!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:02 PM   #185
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 17,109
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Reactionaries are trying to get teachers and librarians arrested for stocking the shelves with books that mention sex or the existence of gay people.



https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside...-as-child-porn
Stupid people. That's just plain dumb!
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:06 PM   #186
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,130
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
An in this case, the "null hypothesis" is that what was reported to have happened, actually happened until and unless it can be shown that it didn't.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/09...-attack-video/

This Karen is a racist. She got called out for her racism, and her boss fired her for it. Cancelled! Karma's a bitch!
If you have video evidence, why on earth are you appealing to eyewitness testimony?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:15 PM   #187
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,727
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Gender studies, almost all critical theories, and a handful of other cultural studies are all based on postmodern philosophy. They're all children of that movement.
Wait… are we supposed to be anti-anti-racist now?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:24 PM   #188
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,290
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I regard witnesses the same way as courts to - a witness is accepted as being truthful and accurate unless shown to be otherwise.
Assuming this random bystander was under oath and facing the possibility of perjury, then I'll accept your comparison to a courtroom. That said, everyone might should have a look at the Elizabeth Loftus book I linked earlier about how unreliable eyewitnesses can be, even under fairly ideal courtroom circumstances.

I'm still unclear on why you're ruling out the following hypothetical exchange:
Quote:
Canceled woman: Go back to Long Island City and stay there!

Frederick Joseph: Did she not just tell us to stay in our hood?

Random bystander: She did.
In such a scenario, the bystander is telling the truth, that is, the cancellee requested that FJ stay in his own neighborhood.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:28 PM   #189
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 17,109
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Wait… are we supposed to be anti-anti-racist now?
Nah. Just don't be a racist. Nothing more is required. Being "antiracist" is equivalent to being "antitheist" instead of just being an atheist.

Also, recognize offensive, infantilizing, patronizing ******** when you see it
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:28 PM   #190
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,727
Ha! Funny coincidence. In this latest episode of Very Bad Wizards, Tamler and David talk for the first five minutes about Helen Pluckrose’s “support group” for academics besieged by “woke” ideology. They laugh about it and point out that this whole thing is “coddling for you but not for me” and they laugh about how of course the coddling is okay for them because in their case it is important, and remark about how obvious it is to everyone. Hmmm…. Apparently not that obvious.

I have to say they put my thoughts into words better than I can:

https://www.verybadwizards.com/222
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:30 PM   #191
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,727
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Nah. Just don't be a racist. Nothing more is required. Being "antiracist" is equivalent to being "antitheist" instead of just being an atheist.

Also, recognize offensive, infantilizing, patronizing ******** when you see it
I think they might argue that “just not being racist” is quietist.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:48 PM   #192
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,007
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If post-modernism is anything, I suppose the fundamental idea is a kind of self-defeating premise that there is no such thing as objective truth.
Postmodernism isn't really anything beyond a label that gets applied to ideas that challenge the modernist project--it's not a single cohesive school of thought at all. I don't think you need commit yourself to the idea that there's no such thing as objective truth in order to be called a postmodernist. I don't even see someone like Foucault as necessarily rejecting the existence of truth--he might be just critiquing the idea that we can get at it in an impartial way. I don't know; I don't have the patience to read him.

When people reject postmodernism out of hand, it reads to me like dogmatism--it implies that the modernist project is necessarily beyond reproach. That's a weird stance to take, and one that's fundamentally at odds with the aims of modernism, where dogma is meant to be anathema.

Quote:
I think that this was the main target for Sokal, when critics of scientific objectivity tried to argue that science is no better at understanding the world than, say, critical theory. Julia Kristeva, for example, I believe that said E=MC2 was a sexed equation.
I think that was Luce Irigaray, not that I can tell you the difference. But yeah, "fashionable nonsense" pretty much covers it.

Quote:
I think Sokal's point was perfectly well-made with his hoax, so I support it. However, these days, if you are trying to find someone arguing that there is objective scientific truth, and then there are some other, different important truths that may not actually be true, but are still true in an important sense, then who would be the poster child for this? Jordan Peterson of course. Nobody writes more like the right-wing reactionary idea of a post-modernist than he does. He blathers long and hard about Jung and Nietzsche and creates these incredible intellectual towers of ********, and the right-wingers, the reactionaries can't get enough of his total and utter drivel.
I think so too, but I don't think Sokal ever claimed to have demolished postmodernism, because he obviously didn't. We do probably owe him a debt for putting some of the obscurantists in a corner.

As for Peterson, you don't need to look further than his account of truth, which is half-baked nonsense. And yes, he looks awfully like postmodernist when attempting to elucidate it. But for that guy, everything is culture war, hence the weirdo conspiracy theories about "postmodern neo-Marxists" trying to undermine western civilization.

Of course, Neil deGrasse Tyson also has a completely boneheaded account of truth, and he's supposed to be one of the good guys.

Last edited by mumblethrax; 5th October 2021 at 05:53 PM.
mumblethrax is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 06:39 PM   #193
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,727
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Postmodernism isn't really anything beyond a label that gets applied to ideas that challenge the modernist project--it's not a single cohesive school of thought at all. I don't think you need commit yourself to the idea that there's no such thing as objective truth in order to be called a postmodernist. I don't even see someone like Foucault as necessarily rejecting the existence of truth--he might be just critiquing the idea that we can get at it in an impartial way. I don't know; I don't have the patience to read him.

When people reject postmodernism out of hand, it reads to me like dogmatism--it implies that the modernist project is necessarily beyond reproach. That's a weird stance to take, and one that's fundamentally at odds with the aims of modernism, where dogma is meant to be anathema.
Yeah, it is all lumped together to be sure.

Besides, Marxism which also gets lumped in there is probably about as far away from post-modernism as you can get. He's up there with the most hardlined proponents of objective truth and sees almost everything as determined by economic (not cultural FFS!) factors.


Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I think that was Luce Irigaray, not that I can tell you the difference. But yeah, "fashionable nonsense" pretty much covers it.
Ah! Thanks for the correction. And yes, Sokal was arguing that that form of post-modernism - at least as far as it intruded on areas that he knew well - was nothing but jargon-laden incoherent nonsense. Bearing that in mind, it is hard to see how it can be the driving ideology of anything. This is why I don't trust B,L and P. They are making claims that don't seem to be borne out from their hoax.


Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Of course, Neil deGrasse Tyson also has a completely boneheaded account of truth, and he's supposed to be one of the good guys.
Yeah, my take on that - if you are referring to a video I have seen - was that he was just riffing on the theme and making things up as he went. He should stick to science communication as he is really good at that.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 06:52 PM   #194
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,290
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"You want to give rid of Fascists? You know who else wants to get rid of people? That's right Fascists! Which makes you a Fascists!" is such a stupid argument.

Everyone who doesn't understand the problem of the "Paradox of Tolerance" get out of both the discussion and the society please.

//ETA: And totally unrelated but **** "Fascists" being such a goddamn hard word to spell over and over...
My grandparents and grand uncles got rid of a lot of Fascist when they were young. It was called World War 2....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 06:53 PM   #195
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,290
Dorian Abbot canceled from MIT:
https://twitter.com/McCormickProf/st...38353845489664

Happy ending for Princeton, though.
https://twitter.com/McCormickProf/st...08465744191507
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 06:57 PM   #196
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you have video evidence, why on earth are you appealing to eyewitness testimony?
If you had read the article, you wouldn't need to ask such a dumb question.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 5th October 2021 at 07:08 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 07:07 PM   #197
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm still unclear on why you're ruling out the following hypothetical exchange:

In such a scenario, the bystander is telling the truth, that is, the cancellee requested that FJ stay in his own neighborhood.

Read this next bit very carefully.

I did not rule it out, I just place no weight on it because, as I said previously it was just "pure, idle speculation on your part, and for which you have not a single scrap of evidence in support".

Maybe the woman was an alien from the Zeta Reticuli star system and didn't understand English. Of course, this is pure speculation, I would place the same weight on it as I place on your speculation.... None . Without . Supporting . Evidence!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 5th October 2021 at 07:42 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 07:17 PM   #198
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,007
Originally Posted by angrysoba
Ah! Thanks for the correction. And yes, Sokal was arguing that that form of post-modernism - at least as far as it intruded on areas that he knew well - was nothing but jargon-laden incoherent nonsense. Bearing that in mind, it is hard to see how it can be the driving ideology of anything. This is why I don't trust B,L and P. They are making claims that don't seem to be borne out from their hoax.
Sokal we can regard as an honest liar. I don't know that we can say the same about these guys. An honest liar probably would have said "Well, this didn't go to plan."

Quote:
Yeah, my take on that - if you are referring to a video I have seen - was that he was just riffing on the theme and making things up as he went. He should stick to science communication as he is really good at that.
The trouble is he's done it more than once, and he's still doing it as far as I can tell. One of the hits for this is his "masterclass" video. He's actively promoting this silliness as wisdom.

My take is that there's a lineage of physicists who are overtly hostile to philosophy, who probably owe this hostility to Richard Feynman. Like Feynman, they nevertheless end up doing philosophy, because it's indispensable. But because they reject the whole discipline, they make 101 errors.

Last edited by mumblethrax; 5th October 2021 at 07:28 PM.
mumblethrax is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 07:19 PM   #199
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,827
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Of course, Neil deGrasse Tyson also has a completely boneheaded account of truth, and he's supposed to be one of the good guys.
He hasn't found a sophistry he doesn't like yet if he thinks it sounds clever.

Not that I find that some kind of thing to cancel him over. Could you imagine? Unless that criticism alone is canelling him.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 07:39 PM   #200
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Nah. Just don't be a racist. Nothing more is required
Oh, yeah. That's really worked well for the last 250 years hasn't it?

Ignoring them, won't make them go away. A lack of consequences for being a racist will encourage and embolden them!

__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 5th October 2021 at 07:40 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:23 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.