IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 5th October 2021, 05:57 AM   #41
Carrot Flower King
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 1,841
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Strife and contention there shall be in the Thoroughfares
In the presence of the Children whose footsteps tread nigh upon Our own
The Principles they hitherto exalted passed from the Earth
Whilst those who Exhorted the disputing forces from on High
Presume to adjudicate every Error and Crime
From the Judgment Seat they deem, their voice as choruses of metal from fiery dragon mouths

Then shall arise the New Boss whom all shall greet
Crying out, Lo, is that not the Same as the Old Boss?
Does it still work with power chords on a SG though?
Carrot Flower King is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 05:59 AM   #42
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,949
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Strife and contention there shall be in the Thoroughfares
In the presence of the Children whose footsteps tread nigh upon Our own
The Principles they hitherto exalted passed from the Earth
Whilst those who Exhorted the disputing forces from on High
Presume to adjudicate every Error and Crime
From the Judgment Seat they deem, their voice as choruses of metal from fiery dragon mouths

Then shall arise the New Boss whom all shall greet
Crying out, Lo, is that not the Same as the Old Boss?
VERILYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 06:05 AM   #43
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 11,064
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 06:34 AM   #44
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,297
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Depeche Mode would suit.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 07:04 AM   #45
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 11,064
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Depeche Mode would suit.
Sorry, can't hear you. Have The Who turned up to 11.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 10:06 AM   #46
Apathia
Philosopher
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,137
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Strife and contention there shall be in the Thoroughfares
In the presence of the Children whose footsteps tread nigh upon Our own
The Principles they hitherto exalted passed from the Earth
Whilst those who Exhorted the disputing forces from on High
Presume to adjudicate every Error and Crime
From the Judgment Seat they deem, their voice as choruses of metal from fiery dragon mouths

Then shall arise the New Boss whom all shall greet
Crying out, Lo, is that not the Same as the Old Boss?
"No! No!"
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 11:35 AM   #47
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,762
Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
OK, just to be clear, this is not to Alarm, proselytize, disempower.

... snipped due to inanity ...

32. The supporting common people will rise up and chase out the adherents of the legislators.
Instead of you providing a "new approach to prediction", I would suggest that you provide "accurate predictions" instead.

After all, if you (or anyone else in the entire world for that matter) can actually provide accurate predictions, then it is quite likely that your ideas will be taken more seriously.
__________________
"But Presidents are not kings, and Plaintiff is not President." - Judge Chutkan

On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 03:50 AM   #48
dellarte
Illuminator
 
dellarte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,205
Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
OK, just to be clear, this is not to Alarm, proselytize, disempower.
Just naming Nostradamus sets off a lynch mob response from usually rational folk, however having studied the subject, well it's adherents as commentators, are well below par, misrepresentation and misapplication, and fanciful outcomes are all presented as fact, so this does not go well for rational folk, who can clearly see the twaddle being presented, but being a good skeptic, I can take both sides, defend or decry, but to do that I need a cogent argument, so I might present something I am working on at present, defending the predictive ability of Nostradamus, and in his own words, so getting acquainted with 16th century idiom and filtered through an inquisition, oh he does not do Empires, no Russia No China No USA, unless they exceed their boundaries in warlike enterprise:
Since governments, sects and countries will undergo such sweeping changes, diametrically opposed to what now obtains,
(Basically Nations will become the opposite of how they started out)

that were I to relate events to come, those in power now - monarchs, leaders of sects and religions - would find these so different from their own imaginings that they would be led to condemn what later centuries will learn how to see and understand. (basically so inflammatory banned on sight does not make it untrue)
So some predictions and some post-dictions
2 Serious conflicts have taken place or the last one is still going through one in the subcontinent and one in the Middle East:
C8Q59. Twice put up and twice cast down,
the East will also weaken the West.
Its adversary after several battles
chased by sea will fail at time of need.

25. In the spring there will be omens, and thereafter extreme changes, reversals of realms and mighty earthquakes.
25a These will be accompanied by the procreation of the new Babylon, miserable daughter enlarged by the abomination of the first holocaust [1905-1917].
It will last for only seventy-three years and seven months.

27. The countries, towns, cities, realms and provinces which will have abandoned their old customs to gain liberty, but which will in fact have enthralled themselves even more,
will secretly have wearied of their liberty. Faith lost in their perfect religion,[communism] they will begin to strike to the left, only to return to the right. Holiness,
for a long time overcome, will be replaced in accordance with the earliest writings.
28a Temples will be set up again as in ancient times, and the priest will be restored to his original position and he will begin his whoredoms and luxury, and will commit a thousand crimes.
26a And the kingdom of the Furious One, who counterfeits the sage, will be united.
54.[from 73 years and 7 months] hearing the lament of the people of his principal title, will raise a very mighty army and, defying the tradition of his predecessors,

37. What great oppression will then fall upon the Princes and Governors of Kingdoms, especially those which will be maritime and Eastern, whose tongues will be intermingled with all others: the tongue of the Latins, and of the Arabs, via the Phoenicians. And all these Eastern Kings will be chased, overthrown and exterminated, but not altogether, by means of the forces of the Kings of the North.

47a For some time thereafter the blood of the Innocent will be shed profusely by the recently elevated guilty ones.

50. During this astrological supputation, harmonised with the Holy Scriptures, the persecution of the Ecclesiastical folk will have its origin in the power of the Kings of "Aquilon" [the North], united with the Easterners. This persecution will last for eleven years, or somewhat less, for then the chief King of "Aquilon" will fall.

36. For hereupon the principal Eastern chief will be vanquished by the Northerners and Westerners, and most of his people, stirred up, will be put to death, overwhelmed or scattered. His children, offspring of many women, will be imprisoned. Then will be accomplished the prophecy of the Royal Prophet, Let him hear the groaning of the captives, that he might deliver the children of those doomed to die.
32. The supporting common people will rise up and chase out the adherents of the legislators.
This is a fill-in-the-blanks joke postcard similie.
__________________
Went down to Saint Tropez where Renoir paints the walls. Am i ever going to see AU again?

No way...
dellarte is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th October 2021, 06:12 AM   #49
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Bikewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 13,033
James Randi himself wrote “Masks Of Nostradamus” years ago, a very thorough deconstruction not only of the fellow himself, but the numerous subsequent translators and publishers who shamelessly altered the original texts to provide the necessary anagrams and spellings to try to make the quatrains appear to apply to contemporary events.

Quite the little cottage industry over the years.
Bikewer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 07:17 PM   #50
RRBacon
New Blood
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 14
OK as far as I know nobody, has correctly predicted an event using Nostradamus' quatrains, or for that matter anything to do with USA China or Russia, unless they are fudging it for book sales, the evidence and interpretations do not hold up to scrutiny, besides they are not the story, even being players in the game, like for instance there are 30+ quatrains on Turkey, being specifically named, the man was Eurocentric, but more importantly what did he actually predict, only then can one ascertain what he did predict, apart from that guy in Russia & China taking the planet and instituting an emission and population reduction, to be known as the Great Anglocide, but being bored 21st century skeptics, you want lights camera action, well look to the subcontinent for the next significant event.
But what I have presented is the Epistle with a rearranging of sequences of paragraphs and some leading and trailing sentences.
Of note very few books on Nostradamus, are credible one has to use the 1961 E Leoni copy for it's verbatim translation, and objective approach E Cheatham did OK when she confined herself to Europe, lost the plot with JFK. Only Le Vert 1978 did a credible job on the word play employed:
Nostradamus was not entirely a man of shadows, and there is much in his complex personality that is admirable. He had a social conscience and he reacted with horror to the aberrations of the day corruption, decadence, cruelty of both control and punishment. In a small way, buried among the lures for the fools, are records of how he felt, expressed in a fashion that was probably much less cryptic then than now. He was willing to name names and face down faces in a symbolic way. It took courage to speak out, even under one's breath. He also demonstrated the possibility of kowtowing to princes while holding his head erect, of contraindicating flattery with double-entendres that he knew his subjects were probably too stupid to appreciate '.
This is the Nostradamus that we can respect today.
New York, 1978 Liberté E. LeVert
RRBacon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 07:57 PM   #51
RRBacon
New Blood
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 14
A mistake I have made:
47a For some time thereafter the blood of the Innocent will be shed profusely by the recently elevated guilty ones.
This sentence is wrongly placed it has a different placing in sequence.
RRBacon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 08:10 PM   #52
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
A mistake I have made:
47a For some time thereafter the blood of the Innocent will be shed profusely by the recently elevated guilty ones.
This sentence is wrongly placed it has a different placing in sequence.
I very much doubt this matters at all to the conclusions that one can draw to align to one’s preconceptions.
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2021, 03:56 PM   #53
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,116
Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
OK as far as I know nobody, has correctly predicted an event using Nostradamus' quatrains, or for that matter anything to do with USA China or Russia, unless they are fudging it for book sales, the evidence and interpretations do not hold up to scrutiny, besides they are not the story, even being players in the game, like for instance there are 30+ quatrains on Turkey, being specifically named, the man was Eurocentric, but more importantly what did he actually predict, only then can one ascertain what he did predict, apart from that guy in Russia & China taking the planet and instituting an emission and population reduction, to be known as the Great Anglocide, but being bored 21st century skeptics, you want lights camera action, well look to the subcontinent for the next significant event.
But what I have presented is the Epistle with a rearranging of sequences of paragraphs and some leading and trailing sentences.
Of note very few books on Nostradamus, are credible one has to use the 1961 E Leoni copy for it's verbatim translation, and objective approach E Cheatham did OK when she confined herself to Europe, lost the plot with JFK. Only Le Vert 1978 did a credible job on the word play employed:
Nostradamus was not entirely a man of shadows, and there is much in his complex personality that is admirable. He had a social conscience and he reacted with horror to the aberrations of the day corruption, decadence, cruelty of both control and punishment. In a small way, buried among the lures for the fools, are records of how he felt, expressed in a fashion that was probably much less cryptic then than now. He was willing to name names and face down faces in a symbolic way. It took courage to speak out, even under one's breath. He also demonstrated the possibility of kowtowing to princes while holding his head erect, of contraindicating flattery with double-entendres that he knew his subjects were probably too stupid to appreciate '.
This is the Nostradamus that we can respect today.
New York, 1978 Liberté E. LeVert
How is cutting up a text and rearranging it to have the meaning you think it should have prediction?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2021, 03:01 PM   #54
RRBacon
New Blood
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nostradamus' works only show "predictions" when you use utterly biased translations and then torture the **** out of them to make them read the way you want them to read. His "predictions" are about the best example you will ever see of cognitive bias at work.
Most poorly educated folk use that path, we can start with Roberts, and basically attribute anything imaginable, however some are quite clear, just misattributed to the local villain of the time, but for the most part I am just using the Epistle a letter to the King so maybe just to complicate it some post dictions, extract:
29. At the eve of another desolation, when she is atop her most high and sublime dignity, some potentates and warlords will confront her,[Nuremberg] and take away her two swords, and leave her only the insignia, (Sig Runes & Swastika )whose curvature attracts them.

The people will make him go to the right and will not wish to submit themselves to those of the opposite extreme with the hand in acute position, who touch the ground, and want to drive spurs into them.

45. It will be at this time and in these countries that the infernal power will set the power of its adversaries against the Church of Jesus Christ.[Synagogue = the Jews]

This will constitute of the second Antichrist, who will persecute that Church and its true Vicar, by means of the power of three temporal kings who in their ignorance will be seduced by tongues which,in the hands of the madmen, will cut more than any sword.

38. Then the Lords of "Aquilon" [the North], two in number,[US & Britain] will be victorious over the Easterners,[Japan] and so great a noise and bellicose tumult will they make amongst them that all the East will tremble in terror of these brothers, yet not brothers, of "Aquilon" [the North -Russia].



16B And this third one will cause a great inundation of human blood,

and for a long time Lent will not include Mars

[1945>1991 Wars are relentless].



(The Church

31. Then the impurities and abominations, with a great shame, will be brought out and manifested in the shadows of the veiled light, and will cease towards the end of the change in reign.

The chiefs of the Church will be backward in the love of God, and several of them will apostatise from the true faith.

43A In the Adriatic great discord will arise, and that which will have been united will be separated to a house will be reduced

On the crimes I did not know polonium and novachok were legal in USA.
RRBacon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2021, 03:44 PM   #55
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,710
Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
Most poorly educated folk use that path, we can start with Roberts, and basically attribute anything imaginable, however some are quite clear, just misattributed to the local villain of the time, but for the most part I am just using the Epistle a letter to the King so maybe just to complicate it some post dictions, extract:
29. At the eve of another desolation, when she is atop her most high and sublime dignity, some potentates and warlords will confront her,[Nuremberg] and take away her two swords, and leave her only the insignia, (Sig Runes & Swastika )whose curvature attracts them.

The people will make him go to the right and will not wish to submit themselves to those of the opposite extreme with the hand in acute position, who touch the ground, and want to drive spurs into them.

45. It will be at this time and in these countries that the infernal power will set the power of its adversaries against the Church of Jesus Christ.[Synagogue = the Jews]

This will constitute of the second Antichrist, who will persecute that Church and its true Vicar, by means of the power of three temporal kings who in their ignorance will be seduced by tongues which,in the hands of the madmen, will cut more than any sword.

38. Then the Lords of "Aquilon" [the North], two in number,[US & Britain] will be victorious over the Easterners,[Japan] and so great a noise and bellicose tumult will they make amongst them that all the East will tremble in terror of these brothers, yet not brothers, of "Aquilon" [the North -Russia].



16B And this third one will cause a great inundation of human blood,

and for a long time Lent will not include Mars

[1945>1991 Wars are relentless].



(The Church

31. Then the impurities and abominations, with a great shame, will be brought out and manifested in the shadows of the veiled light, and will cease towards the end of the change in reign.

The chiefs of the Church will be backward in the love of God, and several of them will apostatise from the true faith.

43A In the Adriatic great discord will arise, and that which will have been united will be separated to a house will be reduced

On the crimes I did not know polonium and novachok were legal in USA.
Meaningless

To paraphrase Rev Dr. Francis H. Wade, the former Rector of St Alban's Episcopal Church 'The Writings of Nostradamus are like people, if you torture them long enough you can get them to say anything you want them to say'

The good Rev was talking about the Bible, but it applies just as well here!

It doesn't take much education to work out that the so called predictions of Nostradamus are pure bunkum. Take for example, his supposed prediction of the 9/11 attacks;

In 1654, Nostradamus supposedly wrote the following...

"Two steel birds will fall from the sky on the Metropolis
The sky will burn at forty-five degrees latitude
Fire approaches the great new city
Immediately a huge, scattered flame leaps up
Within months, rivers will flow with blood
The undead will roam the earth for little time."

"In the city of God there will be a great thunder
Two brothers torn apart by Chaos while the fortress endures
The great leader will succumb
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning"


There are a few obvious fails with this - some basic history and maths will get you there for the first two...

1. Nostradamus died in 1566, 88 years before he was supposed to have written it,

2. The phrase "two steel birds" is problematic... steel wasn't invented until 1854 - that's 288 years after his death,

3. No great leader succumbed,

4. WW3 didn't start while the towers burned.

The writings of Nostradamus are not predictions they are postdictions (statements that appear to come true only after the events happen), and they only appear to come true if you take extreme liberties in translating his cryptic Old French, Greek, Latin and Occitan [/b]language and writing style into English.

Its worth noting that Occitan is one of the romance languages of Southern France, Monaco, and Catalonia; the predominant spoken language in the areas where Nostradamus lived, the Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur region. It is exceedingly difficult to translate because dialects of it vary from place-to-place and it has no official status in France as a language.

Additionally, Nostradamus' writings are not even original, they are based closely on the Mirabilis liber, an anonymous compilation of predictions by various Christian saints and divines that was partially written in the Middle Ages, around the year 1000. In effect, he plagiarised the Mirabilis liber.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 24th October 2021 at 04:37 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2021, 04:15 PM   #56
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,116
Yeah this isn't a new approach to prediction at all. Just the same old posdiction nonsense.

RRBacon, when are you actually going to predict something useful?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2021, 05:04 PM   #57
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21,651
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah this isn't a new approach to prediction at all. Just the same old posdiction nonsense.

RRBacon, when are you actually going to predict something useful?
Yes. Let's cut to the chase. RRB, tell us what Nosty says will happen next. Isn't that what prediction is all about?
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2021, 05:10 PM   #58
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,116
One thing the Old Testament got right was the test of a prophet, and the penalty for failing the test.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2021, 07:21 PM   #59
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 14,694
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One thing the Old Testament got right was the test of a prophet, and the penalty for failing the test.

Gimme that old time religion, eh?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2021, 07:25 PM   #60
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,235
Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
OK, just to be clear, this is not to Alarm, proselytize, disempower.
Just naming Nostradamus sets off a lynch mob response from usually rational folk, however having studied the subject, well it's adherents as commentators, are well below par, misrepresentation and misapplication, and fanciful outcomes are all presented as fact, so this does not go well for rational folk, who can clearly see the twaddle being presented, but being a good skeptic, I can take both sides, defend or decry, but to do that I need a cogent argument, so I might present something I am working on at present, defending the predictive ability of Nostradamus, and in his own words, so getting acquainted with 16th century idiom and filtered through an inquisition, oh he does not do Empires, no Russia No China No USA, unless they exceed their boundaries in warlike enterprise:
Since governments, sects and countries will undergo such sweeping changes, diametrically opposed to what now obtains,
(Basically Nations will become the opposite of how they started out)

that were I to relate events to come, those in power now - monarchs, leaders of sects and religions - would find these so different from their own imaginings that they would be led to condemn what later centuries will learn how to see and understand. (basically so inflammatory banned on sight does not make it untrue)
So some predictions and some post-dictions
2 Serious conflicts have taken place or the last one is still going through one in the subcontinent and one in the Middle East:
C8Q59. Twice put up and twice cast down,
the East will also weaken the West.
Its adversary after several battles
chased by sea will fail at time of need.

25. In the spring there will be omens, and thereafter extreme changes, reversals of realms and mighty earthquakes.
25a These will be accompanied by the procreation of the new Babylon, miserable daughter enlarged by the abomination of the first holocaust [1905-1917].
It will last for only seventy-three years and seven months.

27. The countries, towns, cities, realms and provinces which will have abandoned their old customs to gain liberty, but which will in fact have enthralled themselves even more,
will secretly have wearied of their liberty. Faith lost in their perfect religion,[communism] they will begin to strike to the left, only to return to the right. Holiness,
for a long time overcome, will be replaced in accordance with the earliest writings.
28a Temples will be set up again as in ancient times, and the priest will be restored to his original position and he will begin his whoredoms and luxury, and will commit a thousand crimes.
26a And the kingdom of the Furious One, who counterfeits the sage, will be united.
54.[from 73 years and 7 months] hearing the lament of the people of his principal title, will raise a very mighty army and, defying the tradition of his predecessors,

37. What great oppression will then fall upon the Princes and Governors of Kingdoms, especially those which will be maritime and Eastern, whose tongues will be intermingled with all others: the tongue of the Latins, and of the Arabs, via the Phoenicians. And all these Eastern Kings will be chased, overthrown and exterminated, but not altogether, by means of the forces of the Kings of the North.

47a For some time thereafter the blood of the Innocent will be shed profusely by the recently elevated guilty ones.

50. During this astrological supputation, harmonised with the Holy Scriptures, the persecution of the Ecclesiastical folk will have its origin in the power of the Kings of "Aquilon" [the North], united with the Easterners. This persecution will last for eleven years, or somewhat less, for then the chief King of "Aquilon" will fall.

36. For hereupon the principal Eastern chief will be vanquished by the Northerners and Westerners, and most of his people, stirred up, will be put to death, overwhelmed or scattered. His children, offspring of many women, will be imprisoned. Then will be accomplished the prophecy of the Royal Prophet, Let him hear the groaning of the captives, that he might deliver the children of those doomed to die.
32. The supporting common people will rise up and chase out the adherents of the legislators.
Tell me the name of my first pet and then we can talk.
__________________
"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength"
-Leni Riefenstahl
Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2021, 08:41 PM   #61
Little 10 Toes
Master Poster
 
Little 10 Toes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,416
Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
29. At the eve of another desolation, when she is atop her most high and sublime dignity, some potentates and warlords will confront her,[Nuremberg] and take away her two swords, and leave her only the insignia, (Sig Runes & Swastika )whose curvature attracts them.
Fail.

Who is "she"? it can't be Nuremberg because it existed for about 500 years and it was not specifically named. And the swastika has no curves.
Little 10 Toes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2021, 12:45 AM   #62
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 16,964
Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
A mistake I have made:
,........
The mistake you have made is to think the wild stretches and contortions you are coming up with are better than the bollocks others have. If it differs it is worse than the others in that you claim to understand the traps yet walk straight into them.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2021, 03:46 AM   #63
Carrot Flower King
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 1,841
Oooooh goody! More word salad! Can I have some number mayo with it, please?
Carrot Flower King is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2021, 11:22 AM   #64
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,762
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah this isn't a new approach to prediction at all. Just the same old posdiction nonsense.

RRBacon, when are you actually going to predict something useful?
Thanks much.

I was thinking about the same thing myself.
__________________
"But Presidents are not kings, and Plaintiff is not President." - Judge Chutkan

On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2021, 01:13 PM   #65
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 34,838
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah this isn't a new approach to prediction at all. Just the same old posdiction nonsense.

RRBacon, when are you actually going to predict something useful?

FTFY.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2021, 01:39 PM   #66
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,116
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
FTFY.
If you think that fixes it for me, you're just as clairvoyant as RRBacon is. I said what I meant to say. Go find your own thing to say, instead of trying to fix mine.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2021, 02:09 PM   #67
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,710
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you think that fixes it for me, you're just as clairvoyant as RRBacon is. I said what I meant to say. Go find your own thing to say, instead of trying to fix mine.
Never mind
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2021, 08:51 PM   #68
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 74,478
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
2. The phrase "two steel birds" is problematic... steel wasn't invented until 1854 - that's 288 years after his death...
That's not true. It wasn't industrialised until the 19th century, when everything else was also industrialised, but steel was very definitely being used in manufacturing since ancient times.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2021, 09:45 PM   #69
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,710
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's not true. It wasn't industrialised until the 19th century, when everything else was also industrialised, but steel was very definitely being used in manufacturing since ancient times.
Its is a common misconception that the attribute of being "steely" (for being determined) and of "steeling oneself" (to make oneself ready for something difficult) came from the properties of the metal. In fact, it was the other way around.

The metal that came to be known as steel got its name from the Proto-Germanic adjective stak, meaning “to stand, place, or be firm”., a position of strength. The word "steel" to describe the metal did not began to make its way into Western language until the 1830's, well into the Industrial Revolution.

In Nostradamus' time steel wasn't called it called "steel", ergo, he could not have used the term.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2021, 10:44 PM   #70
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 74,478
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In Nostradamus' time steel wasn't called it called "steel", ergo, he could not have used the term.
That's right. He was French so he would have called it "acier".
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2021, 12:47 AM   #71
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,710
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's right. He was French so he would have called it "acier".
Thats modern French,

As I explained earlier, Nostradamus wrote his quatrains in a variety of languages such as Old French, Greek (most likely Koine Greek) and Latin, but a lot of his writings were in Occitan (pronounced "oxyten"), a "romance language" of 14th to 16thC Southern France, Monaco, and Catalonia (as well as parts of Italy and Spain). He was born in Saint-Remy-de-Provence and spent most of his life in the Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur region - he died in Salon-de-Provence at the age of 63

Occitan was the predominant spoken language in that area, but it is not a recognized language of France and suffers from many of the same problems other languages of this time suffer - multiple dialects in different subregions. So you have, for example, a Provençal dialect, a Limousin dialect, a Catalans dialect, a Languedoc dialect, occitan ancian (Old Occitan) and the Bearnès dialect of occitan ancian.

All of this makes translation problematic at best because we can never be sure of, not only which regional dialect/language Nostradamus wrote in, or even if he consistently wrote in the same dialect. He was well educated; he was fluent in Latin, Greek and the French of his time, as a well as his local regional language, and there is plenty of reason to believe that he would have even fluent in multiple dialects of the regions in which he lived.

So yes, "acier" might be the modern French word for steel (it might also even be the modern Occitan word for steel, but it isn't necessarily a word that even existed in Occitan or any of the dialects of the time. As I said, the word did not enter into common usage until the mid 1800s.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2021, 03:27 AM   #72
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 99,150
Well this new approach seems to result in the same old level of success - perhaps need to find another approach that actually works?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2021, 07:33 PM   #73
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 74,478
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So yes, "acier" might be the modern French word for steel (it might also even be the modern Occitan word for steel, but it isn't necessarily a word that even existed in Occitan or any of the dialects of the time. As I said, the word did not enter into common usage until the mid 1800s.
The word, maybe, but low-carbon and wootz steel were around since ancient times. I don't know what the Latin word for it was or if the Ancient Romans even had a word for what was essentially hardened iron (Google Translate provides the word "chalybe" which looks more Greek to me) but they definitely knew about it. Your claim was that steel was invented in 1854, which is wrong.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2021, 02:41 PM   #74
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,710
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The word, maybe, but low-carbon and wootz steel were around since ancient times. I don't know what the Latin word for it was or if the Ancient Romans even had a word for what was essentially hardened iron (Google Translate provides the word "chalybe" which looks more Greek to me) but they definitely knew about it. Your claim was that steel was invented in 1854, which is wrong.
Technically, you are right. However the point is that the translation has to be wrong - no-one in the 16th C called low-carbon iron by the name "steel"... that term for it was not coined until the industrial revolution, therefore it could not have been included in a dictionary as a definition until at least that time.

Even more telling is the fact that Nostradamus died almost 90 years before he was claimed to have written this prediction... clear evidence of fakery.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 27th October 2021 at 02:43 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2021, 02:55 PM   #75
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 5,755
Nostradumbass was the first serious Woo I abandoned back in the 1980s. This was my first experience with movie goal-posts as his predictions fell flat time and time again.

Think about it, he's entry-level Woo, gateway nutjobbery:

1. A guy with a weird name.
2. Lived in France.
3. Studied herbal remedies.
4. Wrote a book full of cryptic warnings about the future.
5. Made a living as an astrologer to nobility.

He gets reinvented every 20 years and marketed to a new stupid audience along with recently back-engineered prophecies married to recent headline events to "prove" how accurate he was as a mystic.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2021, 03:36 PM   #76
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,116
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Thats modern French,

As I explained earlier, Nostradamus wrote his quatrains in a variety of languages such as Old French, Greek (most likely Koine Greek) and Latin, but a lot of his writings were in Occitan (pronounced "oxyten"), a "romance language" of 14th to 16thC Southern France, Monaco, and Catalonia (as well as parts of Italy and Spain). He was born in Saint-Remy-de-Provence and spent most of his life in the Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur region - he died in Salon-de-Provence at the age of 63

Occitan was the predominant spoken language in that area, but it is not a recognized language of France and suffers from many of the same problems other languages of this time suffer - multiple dialects in different subregions. So you have, for example, a Provençal dialect, a Limousin dialect, a Catalans dialect, a Languedoc dialect, occitan ancian (Old Occitan) and the Bearnès dialect of occitan ancian.

All of this makes translation problematic at best because we can never be sure of, not only which regional dialect/language Nostradamus wrote in, or even if he consistently wrote in the same dialect. He was well educated; he was fluent in Latin, Greek and the French of his time, as a well as his local regional language, and there is plenty of reason to believe that he would have even fluent in multiple dialects of the regions in which he lived.

So yes, "acier" might be the modern French word for steel (it might also even be the modern Occitan word for steel, but it isn't necessarily a word that even existed in Occitan or any of the dialects of the time. As I said, the word did not enter into common usage until the mid 1800s.
Okay, so what word did Nostradamus use in that quatrain? Was it Old French? Koine Greek? Occitan?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2021, 05:01 PM   #77
RRBacon
New Blood
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 14
Well nice to see CXQ72 being put up complete with trope trap:
The year one thousand nine ninety-nine seven month
From the sky shall come a great King of terror,
[Shall be] revived the great King of Angoulmois.
Before and after, Mars [shall] reign luckily.

Up until 2000 most folk believed that the word terror was the word used however, some folk actually got to check the original text and the word is OF deffraieur debt payer now I know how subjective this quatrain is, and so have my own take on it the quatrain is a thumbnail or profile quatrain about a man's life who came to power in 1999 from the skies and if you think Nostradamus did not have a sense of humor check the date of and origins of April fool so 7th month unnamed is really October so what has this got to do with anything? Well the letter explains:

Epistle 30. And hereupon [1943] it is that there is born of a branch long sterile one who will deliver the people of the world from this benevolent slavery * to which they had voluntary submitted.

He will put himself under the protection of Mars,[War] stripping Jupiter [USA-UK?] of all his honours and dignities, and establish himself in the free city

in another scant Mesopotamia. [Kashmir]

The chief and governor will be cast out from the middle and hung up,

ignorant of the conspiracy of one of the conspirators with the second

Thrasibulus, who for a long time will have directed all this.

[3rd World Debt, Debt n. An ingenious substitute for the chain and whip of the slavedriver.A Bierce]
[Thrasibulus = Character from Ancient Greece, who thought to be finished but came back]

So how do you like ex President Musharaff giving you some taxes and a butt kicking?
Round 2 Mabus and his global jihad and introducing USA to the Hiroshima club;.

Last edited by RRBacon; 27th October 2021 at 05:05 PM.
RRBacon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2021, 05:05 PM   #78
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,116
Yes, but when will you show us the *new* approach to prediction?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2021, 07:02 PM   #79
Little 10 Toes
Master Poster
 
Little 10 Toes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,416
Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
<snip>.
Noticed you ignored a legitimate examination of one on your "predictions" .

You're here just to push your own version of made up nonsense.

Even if you change the color of the lipstick on the pig, you still have a pig with lipstick on.
Little 10 Toes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2021, 07:07 PM   #80
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 74,478
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Technically, you are right.
The best kind of right.

Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
in another scant Mesopotamia. [Kashmir]
Why is Mesopotamia Kashmir and not Mesopotamia?
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:41 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.