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Old 7th October 2021, 01:40 AM   #41
The Don
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I wasn't searching for it; the view is expressed in lots of places.
It's not a view I often see expressed, indeed I cannot clearly remember anyone saying it as far as I can recall.

I've seen people want abortion on demand up to a certain stage in pregnancy and I've seen people wanting abortion up to term in specific cases, but abortion on demand up to term isn't something I've seen demanded.

Then again, maybe I've simply blocked it out.
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Old 7th October 2021, 02:00 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
While this is absolutely true, and though clearing your search history won't change what you find as much as you think it might, it is ridiculous to say that those voices don't exist.
all I can say is that I've never seen them.
there is also no point to those opinions, as you would never find a doctor with a working license willing to do the abortion.

But I agree that that doesn't mean that they don't exist.
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Old 7th October 2021, 05:39 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think politics will remain abysmally foolish until people outgrow this strange habit of poorly classifying sets of political desires in terms of the seating arrangements of some French Revolutionaries. With politics as in everything else in life: figure out what you actually want, and pursue it regardless of what it's called or considered or judged.
*Scoffs* I would expect no less of a bad take on things from a Reformist Post-Revolutionary Wig.
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Old 7th October 2021, 06:21 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Perfect!

I see a lot of pro-choice people demand that abortion up to birth should be the standard, and I think that's a step too far - anything close to term is unquestionably a human being.
There was a recent story about a case in Texas where a fetus was diagnosed with (no brain - whatever the technical term is). The parents could not abort, despite the fact that, once born, the baby would only live a couple hours, at most and WILL die. But the laws of the state require that mother to go through with the birth.

Now, suppose that this was diagnosed at 8 months. Would you require that the mother be forced to go through the (physical and emotional) pain of waiting for labor and delivery, knowing that the baby would not survive, when it could be aborted?

When people talk about "abortion up to birth," this is the kind of thing they are talking about. Allow medical decisions to be made throughout the pregnancy, up through delvery.
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Old 7th October 2021, 06:31 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
There was a recent story about a case in Texas where a fetus was diagnosed with (no brain - whatever the technical term is).
Republican?
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Old 7th October 2021, 06:37 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
all I can say is that I've never seen them.
I can believe that.

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there is also no point to those opinions, as you would never find a doctor with a working license willing to do the abortion.
Ever heard the name Kermit Gosnell? He doesn't have a license now, but he did. I hope that he's unique, but he practiced for year before he was caught, and had he been more careful and diligent, he might never have been. So I don't actually know that there aren't more of him still lurking out there.
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Old 7th October 2021, 06:46 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Now, suppose that this was diagnosed at 8 months. Would you require that the mother be forced to go through the (physical and emotional) pain of waiting for labor and delivery, knowing that the baby would not survive, when it could be aborted?
That's actually a pretty bad hypothetical to illustrate your point. At 8 months, you can just induce early delivery. That's not actually going to be any more traumatic for the mother than an abortion. The only real difference is that in an abortion, the fetus dies before passing through the cervix, and with a delivery, it will die after. Even with an abortion, you've still got to induce contractions who get everything out of the womb, and it's still all got to go out the same way. The distinction may seem arbitrary to you, but it isn't to some people. But there is actually a path here that will satisfy both you and them.

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When people talk about "abortion up to birth," this is the kind of thing they are talking about. Allow medical decisions to be made throughout the pregnancy, up through delvery.
No. There are some extremists who want abortion up to birth for any reason. It's a pretty small number of people (I think), but they absolutely exist.
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Old 7th October 2021, 07:01 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are some extremists who want abortion up to birth for any reason. It's a pretty small number of people (I think), but they absolutely exist.
Not to derail this into abortion as anything more than an example case, but let’s put some numbers on this:

“Only 34% believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases in the second trimester, however, and 19% say it should be legal during the third, including 52% and 28% of Democrats, respectively, and 18% and 8% of Republicans.”

“A further 30% believe that abortion should be illegal in some but not all cases in the second trimester, and 26% believe it should be illegal but with exceptions in the third trimester.“

https://apnews.com/article/only-on-a...00bef4520a8fa8
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Old 7th October 2021, 07:15 AM   #49
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We're already having the abortion debate elsewhere so there's no point in rehashing here, but the thing is the whole "Middle Ground" in abortion doesn't exist because the only type of abortion "In the middle" nearly never happens.

The specter of the woman waking up at 39 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds and just up and deciding to have an abortion just for the ***** and giggles of it doesn't happen. Late term abortions are massively rare and almost always because of legit medical reasons. They don't "just happen" enough to be in the discussion as something we have to factor in for completeness sake.

The abortion debate IS an either/or debate pretending to be one of nuance and grey area.
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Old 7th October 2021, 08:10 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The abortion debate IS an either/or debate pretending to be one of nuance and grey area.
I don't think you're right about that, but it's actually sort of irrelevant. The point of mentioning abortion wasn't really about what kind of middle ground existed, but that the real divide has nothing to do with facts and everything to do with values.
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Old 7th October 2021, 10:02 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The biggest political conflicts are about values, not facts. And values are ultimately axiomatic. For example, whether you value the life of a fetus isn’t a question of reality. There is no objective right or wrong answer to that. Yet there absolutely are extreme positions about it.
No, not really.

'Opinion', 'value', 'belief'. These are not magic words that are a 'get out of supporting the assertion free' spells.

If I say my favorite movie is Return of the Jedi, that's an opinion. If I say it is my favorite because I value good movies, that's a very vague 'value'. If I say that my favorite move is Netflix, that's a wrong opinion, and no value judgement can change that. The only thing that could would be a language shift changing what 'movie' means.

If I say my favorite movie is Return of the Jedi because of the scene where the guy wakes up with a horse head and all the dirty Mexicans it employed, that's a wrong opinion and a denial of facts. If I defended this by citing my values giving primacy to the mental health of children which all scifi inherently damages, that doesn't make it a 'value question'. It's still a denial of fact, a fantasy, or a lie.

This is the way the right has gone increasingly fast in many places. Using your own example, one could say their view is informed by their values of respecting life, considering a fetus an individual human life, and us this to oppose abortion, it becomes factually wrong when one doesn't actually operate on that value being true. If it were true, one would oppose IVF and support the changes that would improve the fetal and maternal health in the US which is shockingly bad for such a wealthy place. Most who claim their values lead them to oppose abortion don't at all support the things that they would if that were true though. Some would deny the facts that these things would be true, but that doesn't change that it is a factual issue and not a values difference.

It at least isn't the values difference they claim, and probably tell themselves and desperately wish, it was. The real value the have is in controlling women's sexual activities. This is why IVF 'doesn't count'; it wasn't created with sex.

The right tells itself some comforting lies about what it's values are, which are inconstant with the facts on abortion, on climate change, on economics, on healthcare, and a whole host of things. There are value differences, but the movement on those haven't accounted for the 'disappearing middle'. The more we learn, the more the right has gone off the deep end to deny things.

And some old centrists refuse to adjust for it.
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Old 7th October 2021, 10:35 AM   #52
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Again wrong people love the idea that all their wrongness is just "an opinion" by magical coincidence.

It never is.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:11 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No, not really.
Yes, really.

Quote:
'Opinion', 'value', 'belief'. These are not magic words that are a 'get out of supporting the assertion free' spells.
What is there to support? Values are axiomatic. There is no way to prove that human life has value, for example. Either you believe it does, or you don't believe it does.

Quote:
If it were true, one would oppose IVF and support the changes that would improve the fetal and maternal health in the US which is shockingly bad for such a wealthy place.
Yeah, no. This is a ******** argument. First off, such inconsistencies are just as rampant on the left as on the right. Second, when there are inconsistencies, that doesn't prove which side of the inconsistency is wrong. For example, "Black Lives Matter" protests which lead to scaled back policing and more murders of black people from higher crime rates are exactly such an inconsistency. Does that mean that the protesters don't actually value black lives? Well, maybe. And there's a factual argument to be made about what policy would best advance their goals. But you can't really conclude that valuing black lives is wrong, or even that they don't have such a value.

Quote:
The right tells itself some comforting lies about what it's values are
And the left doesn't? Yeah, that's a big ******* joke.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:16 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again wrong people love the idea that all their wrongness is just "an opinion" by magical coincidence.

It never is.
Prove to me that the life of a fetus has no intrinsic value.

You cannot. You can believe that axiomatically, but you cannot prove it. It is a value statement, NOT a statement of objective fact. The reverse is true as well: you can't prove that the life of a fetus does have intrinsic value either.

And "Just an opinion" is a stupid characterization of what morals are, but they are always, always axiomatic. They are never factual in the sense that you mean. So either you have a moral code and it rests on axioms of some sort, or you don't have a moral code at all. So unless you're trying to argue against having morals at all, none of what you're saying has any relevance.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:29 AM   #55
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I've seen the 2-trimester limit as a compromise with the anti-choicers to get them to shut up. It clearly hasn't worked since their side sees it as a moral crusade and will therefore never stop until it is banned completely.

That's why I don't compromise anymore: Abortion should be fully legal at all stages and it should be federally funded (goodbye Hyde Amendment!)

Basically, our laws should be like Canada's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, really.
Only insofar as 'reality and facts matter' is a value judgment that the right has increasingly rejected.



Quote:
What is there to support? Values are axiomatic. There is no way to prove that human life has value, for example. Either you believe it does, or you don't believe it does.
Except that still isn't the operative difference in the arguments between the left and right (and the 'disappearing middle'). The claimed values are largely the same, what do to about them is based on facts that have increasingly shown the right wing preferences are out of line with their claimed values. This has lead to more and more reality denial by the right and the centrists who have to apologize for them.



Quote:
Yeah, no. This is a ******** argument. First off, such inconsistencies are just as rampant on the left as on the right. Second, when there are inconsistencies, that doesn't prove which side of the inconsistency is wrong. For example, "Black Lives Matter" protests which lead to scaled back policing and more murders of black people from higher crime rates are exactly such an inconsistency. Does that mean that the protesters don't actually value black lives? Well, maybe. And there's a factual argument to be made about what policy would best advance their goals. But you can't really conclude that valuing black lives is wrong, or even that they don't have such a value.
Great example of denying reality to support the right wing views. No, such inconsistencies aren't just as rampant on the left. Again, your own example assumes that scaled back policing as a response to BLM both inevitably lead to more black people being murdered AND that the response was controlled by the BLM movement. 'He wouldn't have hit you if you didn't burn the roast.' It is assuming facts not in evidence to pretend there is an inconsistency when there is not. This is in no way equal to the 'pro life' crowd who still allow for IVF and the death penalty. EDIT: The assumption that Zig and the right made here is that police have to be allowed to murder and brutalize black people without accountability in order to fight crime effectively enough to prevent black people from being murderd. The facts don't show an inconsistency there where as 'human life has value therefore abortion is wrong and IVF is fine' does. The facts matter.

Quote:
And the left doesn't? Yeah, that's a big ******* joke.
There is no law of nature that they have to be equal. The left doesn't in kind or magnitude currently (in the US and EU at any rate).

And that won't change as long as you right wingers and 'centrists' refuse to operate on reality just so you can keep your identity politics from being hurt.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:32 AM   #57
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"It's my opinion that fact's don't matter" is wrong, no matter how much of your opinion you call it.

The Paradox of Tolerance has an intellectual version as well.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:48 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"It's my opinion that fact's don't matter" is wrong
It's also a straw man.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:52 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Except that still isn't the operative difference in the arguments between the left and right
No, THAT one isn't, and I didn't claim it was. I said it as an illustration of how gaps in values can't be bridged by appealing to facts.

Quote:
The claimed values are largely the same
The greatest political conflicts within the US are precisely those issues where the values are not the same. And they are intractable precisely because they are value conflicts, and not fact conflicts.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:54 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's not a view I often see expressed, indeed I cannot clearly remember anyone saying it as far as I can recall.
I'm fairly sure I've seen it expressed on this forum.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
There was a recent story about a case in Texas where a fetus was diagnosed with (no brain - whatever the technical term is). The parents could not abort, despite the fact that, once born, the baby would only live a couple hours, at most and WILL die. But the laws of the state require that mother to go through with the birth.
On the flip side, a pregnant woman in Australia was granted the right to abort a 32-week foetus on the grounds that it was a dwarf and she was suicidal.

I thought it was a nice touch that they killed the baby by injecting drugs doctors won't supply for executions in USA.

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
... and 19% say it should be legal during the third, ...
Not as uncommon as some people think.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:00 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm fairly sure I've seen it expressed on this forum.
And in this very thread.

Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
That's why I don't compromise anymore: Abortion should be fully legal at all stages and it should be federally funded (goodbye Hyde Amendment!)
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:00 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I've seen the 2-trimester limit as a compromise with the anti-choicers to get them to shut up. It clearly hasn't worked since their side sees it as a moral crusade and will therefore never stop until it is banned completely.

That's why I don't compromise anymore: Abortion should be fully legal at all stages and it should be federally funded (goodbye Hyde Amendment!)
See the discussion about birth control. Pro-choice people make the mistake of suggesting that "we can all agree that it is desirable to reduce the number of abortions" and therefore everyone should support birth control measures.

But it's wrong. Pro-lifers don't want to "reduce" the number of abortions, they want to eliminate them all. You can't do that by allowing it in any way. They don't care about birth control measures because they won't eliminate all abortions, and so why bother?

There is no compromise. "Fewer abortions" is still too many abortions.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:25 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's also a straw man.
Sure everything's a straw man. I know.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:37 PM   #64
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Facts ought to inform values and opinions right?

Most people have trouble keeping track of more than three factors at a time, all the pros and cons on any given issue. People can change their values based on facts.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:40 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Facts ought to inform values and opinions right?
No. Not anymore. Not in a post-fact world. Not in a world where ~40% of people have openly adopted "You can't tell me what to think" as their primary excuse for anti-intellectualism.

If I get you to agree that what my favorite sandwich is is a "matter of opinion" then I can tell you my favorite sandwich is Unicorn Meat on Lambas Bread and you can't argue because I already got you to agree that it's a "matter of opinion."

Coups are bad, vaccines work, facts exist, these are just "mere opinions" to be settled by seeing who is the most stubborn.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:58 PM   #66
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I have found it much easier to find the middle ground populous when I interact with people in real life than when I interact online. If online, there seems to be some likelihood of finding middle-ground (or understand between people with differing views) if the discussion is one-on-one, but pretty small chances in open forums.
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Old 7th October 2021, 01:04 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Facts ought to inform values and opinions right?

Most people have trouble keeping track of more than three factors at a time, all the pros and cons on any given issue. People can change their values based on facts.
Facts are are facts.

1. They cannot be contradicted by opinions.

2. They can only be contradicted if and when new facts supersede them (it was an accepted fact that the Earth was the centre of thr solar system, until Copernicus proved the Sun, not the earth, was at the centre. No amount of church screeching Copernicus was wrong changes the fact the the Sun is at the centre).

3. They do not cease to exist simply because you ignore them.

4. Whenever they come up against opinions, facts win 100% of the time.

5. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts

6. "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." - John Adams
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Old 7th October 2021, 07:39 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think you're right about that, but it's actually sort of irrelevant. The point of mentioning abortion wasn't really about what kind of middle ground existed, but that the real divide has nothing to do with facts and everything to do with values.
I brought it up only as an example of a middle view, and only in direct response to this:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What do you even think is a middle view?
While I expected that it would cause a small derail, I trusted participants to bring the discussion back to the relevant topic.
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Old 7th October 2021, 09:04 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
See the discussion about birth control. Pro-choice people make the mistake of suggesting that "we can all agree that it is desirable to reduce the number of abortions" and therefore everyone should support birth control measures.

But it's wrong. Pro-lifers don't want to "reduce" the number of abortions, they want to eliminate them all. You can't do that by allowing it in any way. They don't care about birth control measures because they won't eliminate all abortions, and so why bother?

There is no compromise. "Fewer abortions" is still too many abortions.
I can't see that as rational. The purpose of prohibiting abortions is to stop them, but there would still be abortions then too. So if someone is against abortions, and one policy led to fewer than another, they should rationally prefer that one.

Personally I think the issue is that people who see abortion as murder are angry about people thinking it's sometimes OK, and the desire to punish overwhelms the desire to stop it from happening in the first place. It honestly matches a more stereotypically right-wing approach to law and order. Social programs to prevent crime? Don't blame society, blame the criminal. Ultimately they would be willing to have more crime rather than step away from the ideology of crimes happening only because some people are bad, and we need to punish the bad people until they are unwilling to risk crime.
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Old 7th October 2021, 09:22 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I can't see that as rational. The purpose of prohibiting abortions is to stop them, but there would still be abortions then too. So if someone is against abortions, and one policy led to fewer than another, they should rationally prefer that one.

Personally I think the issue is that people who see abortion as murder are angry about people thinking it's sometimes OK, and the desire to punish overwhelms the desire to stop it from happening in the first place. It honestly matches a more stereotypically right-wing approach to law and order. Social programs to prevent crime? Don't blame society, blame the criminal. Ultimately they would be willing to have more crime rather than step away from the ideology of crimes happening only because some people are bad, and we need to punish the bad people until they are unwilling to risk crime.
The idea of righteous punishment is very attractive to many people.

While others look at reducing overall damage or disruption.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:03 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I can't see that as rational. The purpose of prohibiting abortions is to stop them, but there would still be abortions then too. So if someone is against abortions, and one policy led to fewer than another, they should rationally prefer that one.
It's been said, quite rightly I think, that you can't prevent abortions - you can only prevent safe abortions.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:14 PM   #72
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You need to learn from the Commie multiple party systems that exist in Europe. They have their own problems but those problems aren't as bad as the two party dichotomy that exists in the USA.
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Old 7th October 2021, 11:15 PM   #73
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Please let's not force the moderators to move this thread to USA Politics.
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Old 8th October 2021, 05:18 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Please let's not force the moderators to move this thread to USA Politics.
What "non-political" middle are we supposed to talk about in a world where basic facts, up to the idea that facts even exist, is a political divide?
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Old 8th October 2021, 05:41 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I can't see that as rational.
I never said it was rational, just that this is their view.
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Old 8th October 2021, 07:22 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Please let's not force the moderators to move this thread to USA Politics.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What "non-political" middle are we supposed to talk about in a world where basic facts, up to the idea that facts even exist, is a political divide?
It doesn't have to be non-political (though I suppose if we were talking about the lack of middle in countries around the globe, it may get moved to non-US and world politics), it just doesn't have to be US-centric.

In England*, IMO the middle has become the Labour Party, or more accurately the Labour Party has become the middle in response to the Conservative Party taking a lurch to the right on many things. 10 years ago I'd have said that the nominally centrist party, the Liberal Democrats, were slightly more left wing than the Labour Party but then they got into a disastrous coalition with the Conservatives, got completely played, and are now in considerable disarray.

Back then there was less need for a left wing party but the erosion of environmental and workers' protections, the increasing surveillance society, the Brexit-enabled descent into right-wing populism and the steep rise in wealth and income inequality has meant that we're regressing to the conditions which triggered the creation and rise of the Labour Party as a left wing organisation.

* It's more complicated in Wales and Scotland where the nationalist parties are left-leaning but primarily focusing on eventually achieving independence. I won't pretend to know anything about Northern Ireland
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Old 8th October 2021, 12:28 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
There can be no middle when one party is acting basically insane. You're either on the crazy side or as far from it as you can get.
What do you do when both parties are acting insane though?
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Old 8th October 2021, 12:33 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What do you do when both parties are acting insane though?
This has no relevance. Only one party is insane and cult-like, the party you constantly seem to defend.

Yes, yes, I know: "There are very fine people on both sides."
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Old 8th October 2021, 12:41 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
This has no relevance. Only one party is insane and cult-like, the party you constantly seem to defend.

Yes, yes, I know: "There are very fine people on both sides."
Lol, which party do I defend?
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:05 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It doesn't have to be non-political (though I suppose if we were talking about the lack of middle in countries around the globe, it may get moved to non-US and world politics), it just doesn't have to be US-centric.

In England*, IMO the middle has become the Labour Party, or more accurately the Labour Party has become the middle in response to the Conservative Party taking a lurch to the right on many things. 10 years ago I'd have said that the nominally centrist party, the Liberal Democrats, were slightly more left wing than the Labour Party but then they got into a disastrous coalition with the Conservatives, got completely played, and are now in considerable disarray.

Back then there was less need for a left wing party but the erosion of environmental and workers' protections, the increasing surveillance society, the Brexit-enabled descent into right-wing populism and the steep rise in wealth and income inequality has meant that we're regressing to the conditions which triggered the creation and rise of the Labour Party as a left wing organisation.

* It's more complicated in Wales and Scotland where the nationalist parties are left-leaning but primarily focusing on eventually achieving independence. I won't pretend to know anything about Northern Ireland
We've just been through a Federal election in Canada in which the right-of-center Progressive Conservative party presented a candidate who was slightly more centrist than typical. I'm guessing the news coverage was a little exaggerated, but they seemed to start bleeding extreme fringe voters to a far-right party as soon as any moderate policy stance was expressed.

That's one of the challenges I think; if a party moves towards center, at least in the short-term they are more likely to lose fringe extreme votes than to attract middle-ground voters away from their current party alliance. This is all the more true if a lot of voters are "dyed in the wool" types. In a two-party system like the US, I expect it would just reduce voter turn-out.
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