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Old 13th October 2021, 03:47 PM   #121
ahhell
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Soo.... "You're either with us or against us!" then?
Its pronounced "agin us".
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:57 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The middle between sanity and insanity is not some insanity.

[ETA] Actually, you know, I think we are at that point. Or somewhere close. I mean, we literally had a coup attempt less than a year ago. Where's the middle ground with treason? A little treason?
The idea that "your side" is completely sane and doesn't have any insane wingnuts at all, and that "the other side" is completely insane and consists of nothing but insane wingnuts is... well... insane.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:59 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Like honestly, after an attempted coup and the subsequent party line resistance to accountability for those involved and voting restrictions based off of non existent election fraud are the actions of authoritarians. It was all enabled by blatant cronyism and open flaunting of the law and democracy. Itís ongoing too. What is the middle there and what does a person who laments the loss of the middle identify with that makes that something they can accept? I donít understand that.
You're right. The attack on the capital and the idiotic refusal to acknowledge the election results is authoritarian nonsense.

So, however, is insisting that rioting, looting, and setting businesses on fire is a "peaceful" protest. As is arguing that unvaccinated people should be denied access to healthcare as punishment.
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Old 13th October 2021, 05:03 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
This what most Americans, about 70% of us would be fine with. We can't have nice things because the other roughly 30% that can't even admit they're extremes.
It not even a case of not admitting they are extreme, they just don;t see themselves are being extreme.....
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Old 13th October 2021, 05:04 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Like honestly, after an attempted coup and the subsequent party line resistance to accountability for those involved and voting restrictions based off of non existent election fraud are the actions of authoritarians. It was all enabled by blatant cronyism and open flaunting of the law and democracy. Itís ongoing too. What is the middle there and what does a person who laments the loss of the middle identify with that makes that something they can accept? I donít understand that.
It's called Denial........
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Old 13th October 2021, 05:06 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
There's no such thing as a middle when one end has gone bat**** crazy. Holding on to your sanctimony and pretending to be above it all will only see you hurtling toward the deep as well to balance the two "extremes."

I consider it to be a situation of what is the greatest threat.
Right now in the US, the right is by far the greater threat.
I see some distrubing signs that some on the left might be on the authoratarin path, but compared to the right.............
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Old 13th October 2021, 05:12 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The idea that "your side" is completely sane and doesn't have any insane wingnuts at all, and that "the other side" is completely insane and consists of nothing but insane wingnuts is... well... insane.
Holy hell. Okay, what exactly does the GOP need to do for it to be too far for you to meet them halfway? Do they need to *actually* hang the vice president instead of just attempting to do so? Or would you be making excuses for them even then?
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Old 13th October 2021, 06:24 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're right. The attack on the capital and the idiotic refusal to acknowledge the election results is authoritarian nonsense.

So, however, is insisting that rioting, looting, and setting businesses on fire is a "peaceful" protest. As is arguing that unvaccinated people should be denied access to healthcare as punishment.
I donít think thereís a real comparison there. You canít find a GOP politician to publicly admit Joe Biden won the election, almost none voted to impeach Trump for his role in Jan 6 and there was a party line vote on investigation into it. I donít think youíll find many Dems advocate public violence or that unvaccinated people should be denied access to healthcare.

Just something to keep in mind when youíre finding out where that middle went
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Old 13th October 2021, 08:25 PM   #129
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Again I would love to see this thread if there could be a recent history role reversal with Obama as Trump and every analogous event you can imagine from that playing out for the Dems and their constituents. It's even difficult to imagine that. That's how hopelessly lost the Radical Right is.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:05 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Soo.... "You're either with us or against us!" then?
Well, yes.

Sure, compromise is good. It is an efficient way of avoiding costs of conflict and reaching an acceptable resolution. However, it isn't puppies and rainbows. Any spirit of cooperation or whatever is built around the mutual understanding that a fight to total victory is counterproductive. If you are never willing to take sides and fight then you are, paradoxically, destroying your own ability to rest easily in the center and be moderate.

You become the biggest part of the problem. If everyone wanting to be accommodating to the wishes of Trumpists would just become full on Trumpists then fighting Trumpism would be easier. We wouldn't have so called reasonable people giving cover to this ideology and it would just be a bunch of morons who want a fascist state.

So yeah. This isn't a statement meant to force your hand to be one of the good guys. This is a statement that you being a full on bad guy is better for the good guys than you trying to just lend the bad guys moral credibility. My guess is that forced to choose you'd throw your lot in with the Trumpists and are just looking for an excuse to do so, so go and do it already.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:09 AM   #131
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Slap all the sinister tone you want to "Oh so you're saying there are only two sides how intolerant blah blah blah."

When one said has declared "I want you to lose by any means, even if I have to go down with you. I will goddamn sink this entire ship to kill the Captain" then it's logical and correct.

Is this entire discussion anything but the Right thinking it can finally haul the Left up by the "Tolerance" petard?
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:21 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Again I would love to see this thread if there could be a recent history role reversal with Obama as Trump and every analogous event you can imagine from that playing out for the Dems and their constituents. It's even difficult to imagine that. That's how hopelessly lost the Radical Right is.
Like I become president and get congress to end legal recognition of for-profit corporations while turning the entire federal law enforcement apparatus to prosecuting only the crimes of the rich?
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:29 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

Is this entire discussion anything but the Right thinking it can finally haul the Left up by the "Tolerance" petard?
I'd think maybe exploiting and exposing that this has nothing to do with tolerance as much as that some so-called liberals when the chips are down are going to worry more about their property values and tranquility of their way of life rather than principle and the general welfare. Which I'll admit is something that is often tempting to me.

They want to dress that up as somehow noble. Which is where the tolerance/moderate illusion plays in
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:31 AM   #134
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:38 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I'd think maybe exploiting and exposing that this has nothing to do with tolerance as much as that some so-called liberals when the chips are down are going to worry more about their property values and tranquility of their way of life rather than principle and the general welfare. Which I'll admit is something that is often tempting to me.

They want to dress that up as somehow noble. Which is where the tolerance/moderate illusion plays in
As much as I publicly trash talk liberals, I don't really think that many of them are actually suckers for this BS. It gets repeated a lot by self-described moderates, but more and more it's becoming clear these are just crypto-conservatives arguing in bad faith.

Those that actually cherish moderate positions understand well that a right wing, minoritarian takeover of this country would mean the end of viable moderate political positions.

Opposition to a fascist takeover (because it's increasingly indisputable that's the stakes here) is an umbrella movement that links lefty, liberals, and even moderate conservatives who are actually principled and not complete rubes.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:41 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're right. The attack on the capital and the idiotic refusal to acknowledge the election results is authoritarian nonsense.

So, however, is insisting that rioting, looting, and setting businesses on fire is a "peaceful" protest.
This is a great example of how centrism is a way greater problem than just full on Trumpism.

One can fairly criticize the BLM protests, but ever giving any sort of credibility to their being in any way comparable to the coup is doing darker work than the people who were actually storming the capital. One of these were peaceful marches that were escalated mostly by law enforcement overreaction. The other was an attempt to overthrow a government.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:46 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
This is a great example of how centrism is a way greater problem than just full on Trumpism.

One can fairly criticize the BLM protests, but ever giving any sort of credibility to their being in any way comparable to the coup is doing darker work than the people who were actually storming the capital. One of these were peaceful marches that were escalated mostly by law enforcement overreaction. The other was an attempt to overthrow a government.
Maybe I'm just out of touch, but these attempts to "both sides" the danger of extremist politics in this country must come across pretty tone deaf to anyone that isn't already more or less accepted the ultra conservaitve/fascist political project.

I mean, nobody who already isn't in the tank for a right wing takeover doesn't actually think some protest spraypainting a Starbucks is equally concerning as the entire right wing political machine publicly setting up the dominoes that lead to a mioritarian takeover of power, right?
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:50 AM   #138
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That's the problem with apologetics. They are people who only have the power of other people's convictions and only pick horrible people to do that for.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:56 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post

Those that actually cherish moderate positions understand well that a right wing, minoritarian takeover of this country would mean the end of viable moderate political position.

This is the only part I don't agree with. I'd argue that ship has sailed. Moderates with nice incomes and decent lives aren't going to ever really see crisis until it hits them in a direct material way, and at that point they are mostly just going to rationalize inaction if not collaboration. Liberalism is an abstract sort of luxury for people who make their living contributing to the economic forces causing the problems they claim to want to fix.

(I mean the ones that have a meaningful choice. Like lawyers who could make a modest living working in the public interest but instead work to increase a soda company's profits so they have a bigger house and such, etc. .... not rank and file workers.)

The negative peace of the status quo is something they are just never going to give up, and when it is really threatened they are going to fight for that status quo never mind what they think is right.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:58 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
One can fairly criticize the BLM protests, but ever giving any sort of credibility to their being in any way comparable to the coup is doing darker work than the people who were actually storming the capital. One of these were peaceful marches that were escalated mostly by law enforcement overreaction. The other was an attempt to overthrow a government.
And that's killed discourse.

You're right we should be able to criticize people from "our side" (such as it, acknowledging that discourse is or at least should be a lot more complex than that) when they do something.

But nobody wants to do that if you know full well that some douchebag is going to start screaming about both sides being the same.

So people just don't criticize their own side as much because they don't want to hear it, so the "All sides are da same" types take that as proof, the cycle repeats and strengthens.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:07 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post

I mean, nobody who already isn't in the tank for a right wing takeover doesn't actually think some protest spraypainting a Starbucks is equally concerning as the entire right wing political machine publicly setting up the dominoes that lead to a mioritarian takeover of power, right?
I don't think they all know they are in the tank.

It's the illusion that domestic tranquility is not just a nice way of referring to violence in favor of the status quo.

Which is fair enough depending on the status quo, and the status quo is pretty bad and getting worse.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:10 AM   #142
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I've said it multiple times.

Group/Person A has standards and doesn't live up to a perfect strawman version of them 100% of the time.

Group/Person B has no standards.

Therefore both A and B are bad, but A is also a hypocrite for not being perfect. Ergo B is morally superior to A.

It's literally how their minds work.

"How dare you be better than me and not be perfect? You need to be taken down a peg." Down that hole is where "The Middle" went.
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:37 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I can be as horrible as I want as long as I maintain the belief that deep down inside the people telling me I'm horrible are just as bad as I am."
Along with the Golden Mean Fallacy, this is a manipulation technique known as 'Leveling'. Basically it's trying to put everyone on the same 'level', in this case on the same moral level.


It is also employed as an ego-soothing defense you'll often see used somewhat like 'sour grapes' when someone is shown to be being awful. It's comforting to think 'all politicians are just as bad', even if that means ignoring huge factual and salient issues.


Now some reflexive centrists are just rationalizing what they need to for reasons like wanting to maintain their comfort, their privilege, or their feeling of safety as discussed already. Others have made being an 'Enlightened Moderate' part of their core identity. (I normally use 'moderate' for people who come to their moderate views honestly and 'centrist' for people who want to be in the middle regardless of other principles, but these Golden Mean Warriors think of themselves as moderates.) But the moral and intellectual cowardice aside, some of them are just scared, lazy, or ignorant people who are victims of manipulation like leveling. If you don't know the facts, or are too afraid to rock the boat to find out, it's easy to fall back onto the safe space of 'well the truth must be in the middle.'

Not that some of them being victims of the same kind as other woowoo adjacent people changes the harms, nor really the dynamic here as refusing to deal with the actual facts here doesn't have any of that defense.
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:46 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've said it multiple times.

Group/Person A has standards and doesn't live up to a perfect strawman version of them 100% of the time.

Group/Person B has no standards.

Therefore both A and B are bad, but A is also a hypocrite for not being perfect. Ergo B is morally superior to A.

It's literally how their minds work.

"How dare you be better than me and not be perfect? You need to be taken down a peg." Down that hole is where "The Middle" went.
This is how they mangle themselves into positions that, in practice, are that Nazis and the like should have less restricted speech than people who oppose them. If you try to 'cancel' a racist or even outright Neo-fascists like Nazis, that is to say use your freedom of speech and association to let people know you'll not support anyone who works with them, you should be more restrained than the Nazi, who gets to use their freedom of speech and association to work towards getting people deported, enslaved, or killed and our democracy ended. This is how they put on equal footing trying to get police to stop murdering so many people and literally using violence and passing laws to end the power of the vote.

Appeasers and apologists fall for this intellectually bankrupt reasoning every time.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:04 AM   #145
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Well yeah the most basic concept of paradox of tolerance is too complicated for these people to handle. They sure as hell aren't going to get a nuance version of it,

Especially since they are intentionally not trying to understand it because... well why would they?
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:10 AM   #146
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But yeah this idea that standards only exist to hold good people to is definitely a mindset that's a big part of the problem.

Again not to beat this drum, it's the "Ignore the trolls, but I can't ignore you not ignoring the trolls" thing.

For the longest time the worst parts of society haven't been the extremists, but the people who learn how to do as much damage as they can while shouldered up to "the line" as much as possible because to react to them requires crossing "the line."
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:46 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're right. The attack on the capital and the idiotic refusal to acknowledge the election results is authoritarian nonsense.
What is nonsense is that GOP officeholder who even hint at that obvious statement will be attacked by their own party. Not the fringe of their party, the leadership.

That is the truly insane part: saying Trump lost will get you Cheneyed in the GOP. And by Cheneyed I mean the traditional sense: shot in the face with a shotgun.

Quote:
So, however, is insisting that rioting, looting, and setting businesses on fire is a "peaceful" protest. As is arguing that unvaccinated people should be denied access to healthcare as punishment.
Those are along the fringe of the party and among some highly frustrated members. But be clear: disagreeing with those positions will not jeopardize your future in the party.

That is the difference. One party has a singe mindset driven by a single ego while the other has more room for various opinions.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:55 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
This is the only part I don't agree with. I'd argue that ship has sailed. Moderates with nice incomes and decent lives aren't going to ever really see crisis until it hits them in a direct material way, and at that point they are mostly just going to rationalize inaction if not collaboration. Liberalism is an abstract sort of luxury for people who make their living contributing to the economic forces causing the problems they claim to want to fix.

(I mean the ones that have a meaningful choice. Like lawyers who could make a modest living working in the public interest but instead work to increase a soda company's profits so they have a bigger house and such, etc. .... not rank and file workers.)

The negative peace of the status quo is something they are just never going to give up, and when it is really threatened they are going to fight for that status quo never mind what they think is right.
Wow, that strikes close to home. Good thing I didnít take that Pepsi job or Iíd really be paranoid right now.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:15 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Wow, that strikes close to home. Good thing I didnít take that Pepsi job or Iíd really be paranoid right now.
It doesn't hit all that far from my home either. It is a painful thing to contemplate.
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Old 14th October 2021, 02:13 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Holy hell. Okay, what exactly does the GOP need to do for it to be too far for you to meet them halfway? Do they need to *actually* hang the vice president instead of just attempting to do so? Or would you be making excuses for them even then?
What on earth? I strongly dislike the GOP, they are no friend of mine. I also strongly dislike Democrats for the same reason, so make of that what you will.
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Old 14th October 2021, 02:17 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
So yeah. This isn't a statement meant to force your hand to be one of the good guys. This is a statement that you being a full on bad guy is better for the good guys than you trying to just lend the bad guys moral credibility. My guess is that forced to choose you'd throw your lot in with the Trumpists and are just looking for an excuse to do so, so go and do it already.
The problem here is that you assume that it's perfectly clear that one side is good and the other side is bad. And that's simply not the case from my perspective. The sides are bad about completely different things, and good about completely different things. And realistically, both sides are about 80% bad as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 14th October 2021, 02:32 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The problem here is that you assume that it's perfectly clear that one side is good and the other side is bad. And that's simply not the case from my perspective. The sides are bad about completely different things, and good about completely different things. And realistically, both sides are about 80% bad as far as I'm concerned.
Of course that is your perspective. This is because your perspective is defined by being in the middle.

I am, however, curious as to what exactly the Democrats are bad about that gets anywhere near to the GOP's handling and attempts to cover up the attempted coup. I'm as critical of the Democrats as anyone, but they are the good guys in this deal and it isn't even close.

I'm serious. I can on some level understand Trumpism and why people get to that point. However, people that are unable to on a moral level see a difference between Trumpism and the Democratic party establishment scare me a bit.

"Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos."
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:59 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Of course that is your perspective. This is because your perspective is defined by being in the middle.

I am, however, curious as to what exactly the Democrats are bad about that gets anywhere near to the GOP's handling and attempts to cover up the attempted coup. I'm as critical of the Democrats as anyone, but they are the good guys in this deal and it isn't even close.

I'm serious. I can on some level understand Trumpism and why people get to that point. However, people that are unable to on a moral level see a difference between Trumpism and the Democratic party establishment scare me a bit.

"Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos."

Exactly.

To respond to the person you quoted: My view, the Republicans are dangerously wrong about many things and have an authoritarian thing going on.

The coup attempt, attacks on voting rights, women's rights, the acceptance of Trump and his lies while the facts stare them straight in the face. Making Covid mandates illegal?

Republicans are far far worse. The Democrats are not even a distant second place.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:05 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Of course that is your perspective. This is because your perspective is defined by being in the middle.

I am, however, curious as to what exactly the Democrats are bad about that gets anywhere near to the GOP's handling and attempts to cover up the attempted coup. I'm as critical of the Democrats as anyone, but they are the good guys in this deal and it isn't even close.
Completely different type of problem, but Democrats are busy erasing females and homosexuals, reducing female rights, and passing laws and acts that allow male-bodied people to dominate females in a large variety of situations.

They're also enabling and pushing CRT-inspired ideology into schools in a way that is divisive and damaging.

The GOP being idiots and standing by their idiocy is one thing. It's short lived, and at the end of the day, the number of everyday people who support their dumbassery with regards to the election are few. It's die-hard partisans who don't give a crap. The ideology being pushed by Democrats, however, is being widely adopted by Democrat followers and imposed upon everyday people using tactics of fear and intimidation.

One of these approaches has much longer impacts on society as a whole.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:13 PM   #155
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If someone wants to punch me in the face twice and I don't want them to punch me in the face at all, you aren't on my side or being a moderate if you suggest he gets to punch me in the face once.

This "There has to be middle ground" is how we wound up with "Keep having abortions but don't use the stem cells" and "Blacks are 3/5th of a person" and "Slaves aren't people unless they make it to Ohio."
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:21 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The GOP being idiots and standing by their idiocy is one thing. It's short lived, and at the end of the day, the number of everyday people who support their dumbassery with regards to the election are few. It's die-hard partisans who don't give a crap. The ideology being pushed by Democrats, however, is being widely adopted by Democrat followers and imposed upon everyday people using tactics of fear and intimidation.
Surely you don't have to be a diehard supporter to excuse such acts? Regular Joe Republicans including family and friends have accepted the pro-Trump narrative to some extent. And most Republicans decided early on that nothing Trump could ever do would be a deal breaker. The ones I know are never out there waving signs and didn't come out to see him in 2018 before the midterms. But they've been primed by rightwing media to think that the Democrats are the enemy, not just a political opponent.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:22 PM   #157
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You don't even have to go outside the Republicans to prove it.

They all hated Trump until they didn't.
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:25 PM   #158
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I'm still enjoying the galaxy brain take that conservatives who believe Trump was cheated out of the election is a fringe view, rather than the majority view.

Quote:
A majority of Republicans still believe Donald Trump won the 2020 U.S. presidential election and blame his loss to Joe Biden on illegal voting, according to a new Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll.

The May 17-19 national poll found that 53% of Republicans believe Trump, their party's nominee, is the “true president” now, compared to 3% of Democrats and 25% of all Americans.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/53-...os-2021-05-24/

What conclusion can you make about someone who minimizes the conspiratorial nature of the American right, while asserting conspiracy theories about Critical Race Theory that have no relation to reality?
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Old 14th October 2021, 05:26 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm still enjoying the galaxy brain take that conservatives who believe Trump was cheated out of the election is a fringe view, rather than the majority view.
Yeah but all of those don't count because... because... LOOK A SQUIRREL!
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Old 15th October 2021, 04:46 AM   #160
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Trump's base has always had a lot of the "How dare you tell me what to think, I'm going to think the exact opposite just to prove I'm an independent thinker!" types.

It's why we get the "Oh I'm not a Trumper, I'm just going to defend him, attack anyone who disagrees with him, and use his exact arguments and talking points" types.
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