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Old Yesterday, 08:18 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Well, there it is in a nutshell. Neither of us, despite our best efforts, could figure out what word you actually meant to use. The problem isn't at the receiving end.

Dave
Yes true. Sorry and thanks.
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Old Yesterday, 08:24 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Will you personally be deciding for each person on Earth how much and what kinds of food he's allowed to eat? Please tell us, O eminently wise one, what is the universally accepted definition of "basic need" in this case? (Note I didn't ask for what your opinion of that is.)

Also, since you have zero experience in agriculture, on what you do base your judgment that if people simply behave as you want them to, farming will be unnecessary?
No but we can see it deeply esp how any type of food is natural to us and how it can affect our health?

Basic need is self explanatory. "Minimum natural food for us required for our normal survival.
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Old Yesterday, 08:42 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The funny thing here is that I think if one omitted the bad science, the misunderstanding of what an animal is, the misunderstanding of what nature is, the misunderstanding of what a person is, and perhaps while we're at it the misunderstanding of just how nutty some nuts can be, Kumar could have an argument, though to carry it out might require greater skill and greater communication ability than has thus far been evident. I think that for human reasons having to do with our own, human conception of what is right and best (and not, clearly on what is so-called "natural" in a world where predators eat their prey, and sometimes each other, alive, insects dissolve the brains of their prey to make them zombie slaves, and even the smallest microorganisms ravage their hosts), an argument for humane behavior can be made, an argument for respectful treatment of animals and of nature in general can be made, and even, though I don't subscribe to it, an argument for vegetarianism. Unfortunately, though, any cogent arguments on those matters has been buried under the detritus.
It is bit deep. If we can look and follow the nature, it can be easy to understand basic truth and rationals. Different beings can have different nature and needs. Veg or non veg, I take these both as beings esp where whole generation is involved eg a young animal and a seed. Nature has gifted us special status(eldest), how we use it is our destiny? For creation, for maintenance or for destruction? Different POVs are there in being eldest. One can opt like democratic and by protecting and nursing alike his children other can like monopolistic, might is right alike our slaves. But from the GOD's POV, all lives and souls should be similar having similar fundamental right i.e right to life and personal liberty. It is our free will to opt any out of these and decide our destiny.
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Old Yesterday, 08:52 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
"Eat what you kill" was an ironic hippie slogan in the old days. It never ironed me; as a hunter and consumer of wild beasts, it was my invariable rule.

"Kill what you eat" is a more uncomfortable joke. Maybe, because I have it constantly in the back of my mind, that's why I don't like oysters or dancing sushi.

But I crunch raw celery as callously as you please, & anybody that don't like that can smell my shoes.
"Kill what you eat", can be justified provided it is natural to us and you really hunt honestly without the aid of any weapon. Somewhat alike hunting animals hunt.
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Old Yesterday, 10:34 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
"Kill what you eat", can be justified provided it is natural to us and you really hunt honestly without the aid of any weapon. Somewhat alike hunting animals hunt.
Here, to my way of thinking, is the very opposite of reasonable, the very opposite of what it means, among other things, to be humane, or for that matter, to serve one's own interest in any useful way. Human beings are ill suited to hunting without weapons or tools, and are unlikely to succeed well in the enterprise. But if we did, the "honest" procedure would guarantee that, just as it is in the rest of the animal kingdom, the process would be brutal and painful. Hunting animals ambush their prey or chase it down, and as often as not kill it in a gory and panicked struggle, eating it alive.

Human beings have hunted with weapons since the dawn of humanity, and have domesticated animals since the dawn of civilization, and have developed principles of humane treatment of animals. What is natural to us is to act like human beings, not lions.
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Old Yesterday, 11:55 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Here, to my way of thinking, is the very opposite of reasonable, the very opposite of what it means, among other things, to be humane, or for that matter, to serve one's own interest in any useful way. Human beings are ill suited to hunting without weapons or tools, and are unlikely to succeed well in the enterprise. But if we did, the "honest" procedure would guarantee that, just as it is in the rest of the animal kingdom, the process would be brutal and painful. Hunting animals ambush their prey or chase it down, and as often as not kill it in a gory and panicked struggle, eating it alive.

Human beings have hunted with weapons since the dawn of humanity, and have domesticated animals since the dawn of civilization, and have developed principles of humane treatment of animals. What is natural to us is to act like human beings, not lions.
Yes you can argue, while humans beíngs ill suited to hunting animals naturally but they are given higher consicious mind and intelligence to compensate that. It is a matter of big debate. Why human beings are esp gifted such superiority is also a matter of big debate. Whether for spritual elevation and getting salvation or to master their juniors even upto extreme level. I feel, it should be former one.
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Old Today, 12:12 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Why human beings are esp gifted such superiority is also a matter of big debate. Whether for spritual elevation and getting salvation or to master their juniors even upto extreme level. I feel, it should be former one.
Human beings are unusually intelligent animals because they evolved under circumstances where increasing intelligence was advantageous, so bigger brains were naturally selected.
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Old Today, 12:21 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Nature has gifted us special status(eldest)...

No, it hasn't. Coelacanths, for example, have been around since the early Devonian.
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Old Today, 12:33 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Human beings are unusually intelligent animals because they evolved under circumstances where increasing intelligence was advantageous, so bigger brains were naturally selected.
Yes but for what? It is a matter of grat debate. It may either be serve better to other things and species or to serve better to self. Both parents/guardian and childern are naturally evolved with different emotions. So it can not be taken as granted that only one type emotion is only naturally selected.
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Old Today, 12:55 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes but for what?

To enable us to survive better. Or, rather, over time more intelligent individuals were able to produce more viable offspring than the less intelligent, and passed the trait of higher intelligence on to their descendants. There isn't any purpose behind evolution.
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Old Today, 01:00 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes but for what?
To increase our ancestors' chances of surviving long enough to reproduce. In the circumstances in which we evolved greater intelligence increased those chances, so natural selection favoured it.

Other animals got faster, or better camouflaged, or sharper claws - whatever increased their chances of surviving. We got smarter.
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Old Today, 01:48 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
To increase our ancestors' chances of surviving long enough to reproduce. In the circumstances in which we evolved greater intelligence increased those chances, so natural selection favoured it.

Other animals got faster, or better camouflaged, or sharper claws - whatever increased their chances of surviving. We got smarter.
Reproduction purpose is common to most species, therefore those are existing. So we can not say, it is the only reason due to which we get greater intelligence. Living longer or reproducing longer can also be noted in some other species. So it is not specific to human. We may need to find out other reason to it.
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Old Today, 02:03 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Reproduction purpose is common to most species, therefore those are existing. So we can not say, it is the only reason due to which we get greater intelligence. Living longer or reproducing longer can also be noted in some other species. So it is not specific to human. We may need to find out other reason to it.
I already covered this. What characteristics are selected for in a particular species depends on the characteristics they already have, and the circumstances in which they are evolving. For some species getting faster is most advantageous so that's what's selected for, even it's at the expense of (for example) larger brains. For other species it's camouflage, or sharper claws, that's most advantageous and therefore selected for. For us it was intelligence.
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Old Today, 02:11 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Reproduction purpose is common to most species, therefore those are existing. So we can not say, it is the only reason due to which we get greater intelligence.

The only reason we evolved "greater intelligence" is that, over time, those individuals with "greater intelligence" were able to produce more viable offspring than other members if the population, and passed the trait of "greater intelligence" on to those offspring. There is no purpose behind evolution; it just happens.
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Old Today, 02:21 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I already covered this. What characteristics are selected for in a particular species depends on the characteristics they already have, and the circumstances in which they are evolving. For some species getting faster is most advantageous so that's what's selected for, even it's at the expense of (for example) larger brains. For other species it's camouflage, or sharper claws, that's most advantageous and therefore selected for. For us it was intelligence.
Yes right. But, whether the purpose of natural selection and human beings is just their better potential in fittness of survival and more successful it is at reproducing offspring surviving to adulthood? No other?
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