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Old 2nd December 2020, 10:27 AM   #681
RolandRat
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This was a child who was groomed online, she was a child we in the UK did not protect from online predators yet you seem to think that she was able to rationally weigh up all her options and was able to in effect give informed consent to what she was subjected to.

I cannot see how anyone can consider her to not be a victim of child grooming.
As I said above, i think she would have been exposed to the horrors the group she joined have been doing long before she joined them. You can't tell me she wasn't aware they were cutting peoples heads off and whatnot.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 12:35 PM   #682
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What's wrong with recognizing she's a British citizen and sending her to prison for life? How secure is it to leave her in a camp she may somehow get out of?
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Old 2nd December 2020, 01:09 PM   #683
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It's funny, but the vehement extremity of RolandRat's position, and the rebuttals to it about teenagers and grooming/propaganda, have made me seriously reconsider my own position. I am now tending towards the idea that she should probably be brought home as a UK citizen, and dealt with as a UK citizen.

On other hand, if her circumstances had been slightly different - if she'd been a few years older and a more plausible case for adult responsibility could be made - I'd not give two figs for her being made stateless, or for the UK government disingenuously turning this into a Bangladeshi citizenship problem and washing their hands.

So in this particular case, yeah, the UK probably owes it to her to recognize her citizenship and persecute/support her accordingly.

But in general, folks who leave home to join a nascent terrorist state lose all claim to the privileges of citizenship in the country they declared war on, as far as I'm concerned. If that means you get to be a stateless hobo in a refugee camp in one of the world's pestholes? Fine by me. Get rekt, terrorist scum.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 02:03 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's funny, but the vehement extremity of RolandRat's position, and the rebuttals to it about teenagers and grooming/propaganda, have made me seriously reconsider my own position. I am now tending towards the idea that she should probably be brought home as a UK citizen, and dealt with as a UK citizen.

On other hand, if her circumstances had been slightly different - if she'd been a few years older and a more plausible case for adult responsibility could be made - I'd not give two figs for her being made stateless, or for the UK government disingenuously turning this into a Bangladeshi citizenship problem and washing their hands.

So in this particular case, yeah, the UK probably owes it to her to recognize her citizenship and persecute/support her accordingly.

But in general, folks who leave home to join a nascent terrorist state lose all claim to the privileges of citizenship in the country they declared war on, as far as I'm concerned. If that means you get to be a stateless hobo in a refugee camp in one of the world's pestholes? Fine by me. Get rekt, terrorist scum.
In principle I agree with you.

I think you should reap what you sow. Adults over 18 have to take responsibility for their criminal acts. But there is a reason why we have 'children's courts', why children under 18 do not vote, and are not allowed to go on active service if they are in the army. I suspect that she would not have been the most worldly wise 15 year old and the grooming would have begun early in her teen age years. I would not be unhappy with British citizens who swore allegiance to ISIS being prosecuted for treason, without needing to prove participation in any specific criminal act.
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Old 7th December 2020, 06:03 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
As I said above, i think she would have been exposed to the horrors the group she joined have been doing long before she joined them. You can't tell me she wasn't aware they were cutting peoples heads off and whatnot.
You're arguing against people who are bending over backwards not to mention the role the orthodox teachings of a small but very active sect of Muslim religious hardliners had in this.
No doubt she was heavily influenced by an Imam and possibly even some of her family members were involved as well.
This was pure unadulterated religious indoctrination in Muslim Salafi jihadism.
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Old 8th December 2020, 01:11 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
How many people suffering from Stockholms looked up their "captors" thought I'd like some of that and then went willingly off to join them?

You can't tell me she didn't know about their ideology before she willingly left the country.
That is why she needs to be brought before a court for a hearing (Magna Carta and all that?).
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Old 8th December 2020, 01:17 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You're arguing against people who are bending over backwards not to mention the role the orthodox teachings of a small but very active sect of Muslim religious hardliners had in this.
No doubt she was heavily influenced by an Imam and possibly even some of her family members were involved as well.
This was pure unadulterated religious indoctrination in Muslim Salafi jihadism.
I don't see how being anti-Muslim is relevant. Criminality has nothing to do with one's nationality. If that was the case, then by your argument we need to revoke the nationality of Rose West, Jeremy Bamber and Ian Huntley.

If Begum is found by a court to have breached the law regarding Anti-Terrorist Acts then bring the correct charge and sentence against her. Or lobby your MP to change the law.
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Old 8th December 2020, 03:05 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You're arguing against people who are bending over backwards not to mention the role the orthodox teachings of a small but very active sect of Muslim religious hardliners had in this.
No doubt she was heavily influenced by an Imam and possibly even some of her family members were involved as well.
This was pure unadulterated religious indoctrination in Muslim Salafi jihadism.
Yeah that's all part of the grooming. Who says it isn't (of those arguing against Rats argument)?
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Old 11th December 2020, 05:14 AM   #689
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't see how being anti-Muslim is relevant.
Neither do I. What is your point and who is being anti-Muslim?

Quote:
Criminality has nothing to do with one's nationality.
I agree. Who said anything about criminality and being tied to one's nationality?


Quote:
If that was the case, then by your argument we need to revoke the nationality of Rose West, Jeremy Bamber and Ian Huntley.
It is not the case. Your characterization of my argument is astonishingly erroneous.
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Old 11th December 2020, 05:27 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah that's all part of the grooming. Who says it isn't (of those arguing against Rats argument)?
You and others have made the jump to conflating religious indoctrination to "grooming for sexual purposes" without a shred of evidence.
You are purposefully leaving out the religious indoctrination in order to go along with your views that any sort of mention of Islamic teachings as a motivating factor for terrorism is automatically being racist and anti-Islam.
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Old 11th December 2020, 11:41 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You and others have made the jump to conflating religious indoctrination to "grooming for sexual purposes" without a shred of evidence. ...snip...
No I haven’t.
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You are purposefully leaving out the religious indoctrination in order to go along with your views that any sort of mention of Islamic teachings as a motivating factor for terrorism is automatically being racist and anti-Islam.
Nope not at all.

No idea who you are confusing me with.

Looks like you can’t support your claim.
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Old 11th December 2020, 12:20 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You and others have made the jump to conflating religious indoctrination to "grooming for sexual purposes" without a shred of evidence.
You are purposefully leaving out the religious indoctrination in order to go along with your views that any sort of mention of Islamic teachings as a motivating factor for terrorism is automatically being racist and anti-Islam.
The way I see it, it's the same thing whether you call it indoctrination or grooming. And it's not for sexual purposes, but for general compliance and suggestibility of the believers. Obviously this creates a target-rich environment for sex predators, and it's no surprise that sex predators are often found among religious leadership, applying and guiding the indoctrination process for their own ends.
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Old 11th December 2020, 03:07 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Neither do I. What is your point and who is being anti-Muslim?



I agree. Who said anything about criminality and being tied to one's nationality?




It is not the case. Your characterization of my argument is astonishingly erroneous.
You or another poster were arguing that the fact of her illegally leaving the UK to join an illegal regime was enough to strip her of her nationality without further ado or appeal.

Do correct me if I have got this wrong.
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Old 11th December 2020, 03:11 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
You and others have made the jump to conflating religious indoctrination to "grooming for sexual purposes" without a shred of evidence.
You are purposefully leaving out the religious indoctrination in order to go along with your views that any sort of mention of Islamic teachings as a motivating factor for terrorism is automatically being racist and anti-Islam.
ISTM the main argument against letting Begum return to argue before a hearing about why she should not lose her British nationality appears to be based on anti-Muslim terrorist attitudes rather than focussing on the cold technical issue of her nationality.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Your counter argument appears to be, 'you must be pro-Muslim terrorists/politically correct if you want her to have that right'.

However, that is what a forum is for, you may correct any misunderstanding about this.
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Old 11th December 2020, 03:14 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The way I see it, it's the same thing whether you call it indoctrination or grooming. And it's not for sexual purposes, but for general compliance and suggestibility of the believers. Obviously this creates a target-rich environment for sex predators, and it's no surprise that sex predators are often found among religious leadership, applying and guiding the indoctrination process for their own ends.
That's right. Many of these 'recruits' seem to have been 'married' off almost as soon as they arrived.
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Old 26th February 2021, 01:00 AM   #696
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Big news day today, re Shamima Begum's attempt to have her appeal heard in person.

Quote:
Shamima Begum will find out if she can potentially return to the UK to pursue an appeal against the removal of her British citizenship when the Supreme Court rules on her case.

Begum was 15 when she and two other east London schoolgirls travelled to Syria to join the so-called Islamic State group (IS) in February 2015.

Her British citizenship was revoked on national security grounds shortly after she was found, nine months pregnant, in a Syrian refugee camp in February 2019.

Begum, now 21, is challenging the Home Office's decision to remove her British citizenship and wants to be allowed to return to the UK to pursue her appeal.
DM

Being heard today.
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Old 26th February 2021, 04:14 AM   #697
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Supreme Court says no, she cannot return to the UK to have her appeal heard:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56209007
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Old 26th February 2021, 09:14 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
Supreme Court says no, she cannot return to the UK to have her appeal heard:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56209007
A defective decision, based on the erroneous reasoning, 'It's been brought by the Home Secretary, so he or she, as Home Secretary, should know', completely overriding the fact that the Courts are supposed to concentrate objectively and coldly on the law and the constitution and not on the political forces of the day. It is circular reasoning: "The Home Office stripped Begum of her British citizenship and we should respect that decision. It is their decision she is a national security risk and they should know as they communicate with the Intelligence Services. We know this is a weak argument, which presupposes the Home Office has no political bias, so we have hastily carried out our own security assessment and agree with the Home Secretary for the aforementioned reasons. If people don't like it, they can always vote the government out.'

In no shape or form has the government-appointed special IAS board and the Supreme Court, headed by Lord Reed, actually coldly applied the law and the concept of habeus corpus. As if a 21-year-old woman imprisoned over the last four or five years has any means whatsoever to 'pose a risk to the public', given she would be met off the plane by the police ready to arrest her.

This is the first step in the slippery slope of a rogue government which cares little for ethics or human rights, least of all actually honouring laws and treaties, or parliamentary protocols - as per the illegal proroguing the other year - not to mention the current incumbent Home Secretary having been caught red-handed trying to make a deal with Israel behind the then government's back, was unceremoniously sacked for it and then was also found guilty of bullying by a ministerial Conduct Committee more recently, and least of all, being Hindi and therefore in conflict of interest with an Islam issue.

Lord Reed in this shabby judgment, is shown up as cowardly and weak, simply doing the populists' bidding, instead of concentrating on the finer points of the law.
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Last edited by Vixen; 26th February 2021 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:17 AM   #699
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Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think the UK is being gratuitously shady here.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:21 AM   #700
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A defective decision, based on the erroneous reasoning, 'It's been brought by the Home Secretary, so he or she, as Home Secretary, should know', completely overriding the fact that the Courts are supposed to concentrate objectively and coldly on the law and the constitution and not on the political forces of the day. It is circular reasoning: "The Home Office stripped Begum of her British citizenship and we should respect that decision. It is their decision she is a national security risk and they should know as they communicate with the Intelligence Services. We know this is a weak argument, which presupposes the Home Office has no political bias, so we have hastily carried out our own security assessment and agree with the Home Secretary for the aforementioned reasons. If people don't like it, they can always vote the government out.'

In no shape or form has the government-appointed special IAS board and the Supreme Court, headed by Lord Reed, actually coldly applied the law and the concept of habeus corpus. As if a 21-year-old woman imprisoned over the last four or five years has any means whatsoever to 'pose a risk to the public', given she would be met off the plane by the police ready to arrest her.

This is the first step in the slippery slope of a rogue government which cares little for ethics or human rights, least of all actually honouring laws and treaties, or parliamentary protocols - as per the illegal proroguing the other year - not to mention the current incumbent Home Secretary having been caught red-handed trying to make a deal with Israel behind the then government's back, was unceremoniously sacked for it and then was also found guilty of bullying by a ministerial Conduct Committee more recently, and least of all, being Hindi and therefore in conflict of interest with an Islam issue.

Lord Reed in this shabby judgment, is shown up as cowardly and weak, simply doing the populists' bidding, instead of concentrating on the finer points of the law.
The courts have decided its up to this terrorist wannabe to prove she would no longer pose a threat if she came back to the UK and not that she simply decided to invoke her UK citizenship once ISIS started losing. I've seen nothing that convinces me she has any genuine remorse for what she did and frankly I would be far more sympathetic to allowing genuine victims of ISIS to come to this country, for that matter I would have no issue with allowing her children to be brought to the UK.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:30 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
The courts have decided its up to this terrorist wannabe to prove she would no longer pose a threat if she came back to the UK and not that she simply decided to invoke her UK citizenship once ISIS started losing. I've seen nothing that convinces me she has any genuine remorse for what she did and frankly I would be far more sympathetic to allowing genuine victims of ISIS to come to this country, for that matter I would have no issue with allowing her children to be brought to the UK.
WAIT. You do not need to show any remorse to continue with your citizenship. That is not how law works. It is not based on 'good character'.

As for your kindly letting a potential ex-ISIS terrorist's children in, isn't it cruel to separate young children from their parents?

Finland recently let three women and ten children altogether, to return to Finland from these prison camps. So what is the problem for the UK?

Quote:
A plane landed at HELSINKI-VANTAA airport on Sunday morning, bringing Finns from Syria living in the al-Hol camp. There were two Isis mothers and their six children on the plane. Tarja Mankkinen, Development Manager at the Ministry of the Interior, says that the first steps were taken at the airport, such as health checks and corona tests. Recipients were present at the airport. Mankkinen says al-Hol entrants can return to the municipalities. - The intention is that they can return to normal life a little quietly. Do they have a home left in Finland? - I can't say that.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:50 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
The courts have decided its up to this terrorist wannabe to prove she would no longer pose a threat if she came back to the UK and not that she simply decided to invoke her UK citizenship once ISIS started losing. I've seen nothing that convinces me she has any genuine remorse for what she did and frankly I would be far more sympathetic to allowing genuine victims of ISIS to come to this country, for that matter I would have no issue with allowing her children to be brought to the UK.
As far as I'm concerned, she is a genuine victim of ISIS.

I also find it hard to believe that the UK lacks the resources and competence to easily manage whatever threat she might pose, were she to be detained on home soil for the proceedings.
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Old 26th February 2021, 11:06 AM   #703
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
WAIT. You do not need to show any remorse to continue with your citizenship. That is not how law works. It is not based on 'good character'.

As for your kindly letting a potential ex-ISIS terrorist's children in, isn't it cruel to separate young children from their parents?

Finland recently let three women and ten children altogether, to return to Finland from these prison camps. So what is the problem for the UK?

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The problem is she ran off to join a terrorist organization and continued to support them until ISIS started losing. The onus is on her to show she can be trusted, not on the UK to bend over backwards to accommodate her.
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Old 26th February 2021, 11:17 AM   #704
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
The problem is she ran off to join a terrorist organization and continued to support them until ISIS started losing. The onus is on her to show she can be trusted, not on the UK to bend over backwards to accommodate her.
Wasn't she a minor when she ran away? I subscribe to the philosophy that children should not be held responsible like adults for the stupid choices they make.

Also, how long do you think she would have been allowed to live, if she'd tried to skip out while ISIS was still in control of the region?

Also, bringing a citizen home to stand trial seems like a pretty basic function of any legitimate government, hardly "bending over backwards".
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Old 26th February 2021, 11:29 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wasn't she a minor when she ran away? I subscribe to the philosophy that children should not be held responsible like adults for the stupid choices they make.

Also, how long do you think she would have been allowed to live, if she'd tried to skip out while ISIS was still in control of the region?

Also, bringing a citizen home to stand trial seems like a pretty basic function of any legitimate government, hardly "bending over backwards".
15 year old when she left the UK.

I’ll have to read the actual judgment but I presume that they will be on solid ground regarding the legal issues, it’s the ethical issue that concerns me.

A 15 year old being groomed is what at the heart of this. She is the victim.
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Old 27th February 2021, 03:31 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As far as I'm concerned, she is a genuine victim of ISIS.

I also find it hard to believe that the UK lacks the resources and competence to easily manage whatever threat she might pose, were she to be detained on home soil for the proceedings.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
15 year old when she left the UK.

I’ll have to read the actual judgment but I presume that they will be on solid ground regarding the legal issues, it’s the ethical issue that concerns me.

A 15 year old being groomed is what at the heart of this. She is the victim.

+1 to these. I'll be honest and say that I have great trouble summoning any sympathy for her as an individual, but the whole point of the rule of law is it shouldn't rely on personal sympathies. The decision to remove her citizenship based on a theoretical second citizenship the government believes she could acquire, although the actual country disputes this, rather than one that is actually held is very troubling. Although it opens the question of whether we could offload Alexander Johnson on the basis that he might reclaim his US passport I suppose...

She's British, she was born here, raised here, and whether you consider her to have been groomed or radicalized it happened here and it happened while she was a minor. She's our problem and as a matter of principal we should be taking responsibility not offloading it on other, poorer, countries.
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Old 27th February 2021, 05:43 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As far as I'm concerned, she is a genuine victim of ISIS.

I also find it hard to believe that the UK lacks the resources and competence to easily manage whatever threat she might pose, were she to be detained on home soil for the proceedings.
Yes

The UK certainly has better resources to deal with her than the country of her other citizenship.

By all means arrest and try her for terrorism offences, but, as you say. It should be the UK's problem

ETA: or this:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
+1 to these. I'll be honest and say that I have great trouble summoning any sympathy for her as an individual, but the whole point of the rule of law is it shouldn't rely on personal sympathies. The decision to remove her citizenship based on a theoretical second citizenship the government believes she could acquire, although the actual country disputes this, rather than one that is actually held is very troubling. Although it opens the question of whether we could offload Alexander Johnson on the basis that he might reclaim his US passport I suppose...

She's British, she was born here, raised here, and whether you consider her to have been groomed or radicalized it happened here and it happened while she was a minor. She's our problem and as a matter of principal we should be taking responsibility not offloading it on other, poorer, countries.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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Old 27th February 2021, 02:37 PM   #708
jimbob
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https://twitter.com/DrDomPimenta/sta...508184074?s=20

Quote:

Dr Dominic Pimenta Blue heart *Please* Just Stay At Home
·
1h
British people never stripped of their citizenship:

Ghislaine Maxwell
Gary Glitter
Harold Shipman
Jimmy Saville
Fred West
Ian Brady
Thomas Mair

.

British people stripped of their citizenship:

A 15-year old girl from London, groomed, forced into underage marriage, lost 3 kids
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 27th February 2021, 02:49 PM   #709
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wasn't she a minor when she ran away? I subscribe to the philosophy that children should not be held responsible like adults for the stupid choices they make.

Also, how long do you think she would have been allowed to live, if she'd tried to skip out while ISIS was still in control of the region?

Also, bringing a citizen home to stand trial seems like a pretty basic function of any legitimate government, hardly "bending over backwards".
I'm shocked when we agree on something.
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Old 28th February 2021, 02:54 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

As if a 21-year-old woman imprisoned over the last four or five years has any means whatsoever to 'pose a risk to the public', given she would be met off the plane by the police ready to arrest her.
The argument is that, as her alleged crimes took place in a war zone, evidence would be extremely difficult to find. She would almost certainly be arrested upon arrival- but she would have to be released, due to lack of evidence. That's where the national security threat begins. Radicalised people tend to radicalise others, and that's where domestic terrorists come from. She would spread her poisonous beliefs everywhere she went.
On a personal note, I am deeply sceptical of her claimed repentance. Witnessing the atrocities committed by IS, after her arrival in Syria, did not spark any pangs of conscience. She showed no pity or contrition in that infamous interview. No, her claimed change of mind only happened when IS was militarily defeated, and she was captured. She's just looking for a way to escape the consequences of her actions and save her own skin.
Again, this is just my opinion, but I find the coincidence of capture and contrition to be highly suspicious.
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Old 28th February 2021, 03:02 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The argument is that, as her alleged crimes took place in a war zone, evidence would be extremely difficult to find. She would almost certainly be arrested upon arrival- but she would have to be released, due to lack of evidence. That's where the national security threat begins. Radicalised people tend to radicalise others, and that's where domestic terrorists come from. She would spread her poisonous beliefs everywhere she went.
On a personal note, I am deeply sceptical of her claimed repentance. Witnessing the atrocities committed by IS, after her arrival in Syria, did not spark any pangs of conscience. She showed no pity or contrition in that infamous interview. No, her claimed change of mind only happened when IS was militarily defeated, and she was captured. She's just looking for a way to escape the consequences of her actions and save her own skin.
Again, this is just my opinion, but I find the coincidence of capture and contrition to be highly suspicious.
Nonsense. The UK has perfectly clear Terrorist Acts, including the prohibition in belonging to a terrorist group. Remember, this case is not about whether or not she committed a crime but about her right to appear in person in a UK court to plead her case. The case in this specific instance is her appealing against losing her nationality. At this stage, her alleged crimes have nothing to do with her appeal.

The British constitution is very clear on this. Everybody has a right to appear in court to plead their case, even the very worst serial murderers and rapists.
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Old 28th February 2021, 04:30 PM   #712
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The argument is that, as her alleged crimes took place in a war zone, evidence would be extremely difficult to find. She would almost certainly be arrested upon arrival- but she would have to be released, due to lack of evidence. That's where the national security threat begins. Radicalised people tend to radicalise others, and that's where domestic terrorists come from. She would spread her poisonous beliefs everywhere she went.
If they can't gather evidence of crimes, then how can they demonstrate an actionable threat? And what's their justification for removing her citizenship? If that's what the argument is, it disappears so far up its own ass you couldn't find it with an arc lamp and a stable time loop.

Quote:
On a personal note, I am deeply sceptical of her claimed repentance. Witnessing the atrocities committed by IS, after her arrival in Syria, did not spark any pangs of conscience. She showed no pity or contrition in that infamous interview. No, her claimed change of mind only happened when IS was militarily defeated, and she was captured. She's just looking for a way to escape the consequences of her actions and save her own skin.
Again, this is just my opinion, but I find the coincidence of capture and contrition to be highly suspicious.
I don't find it suspicious at all. At what point after she arrived, but before ISIS was defeated, would it have been even remotely safe for her to express any misgivings at all?
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:56 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
The problem is she ran off to join a terrorist organization and continued to support them until ISIS started losing. The onus is on her to show she can be trusted, not on the UK to bend over backwards to accommodate her.
Yep like in starship trooper reserve citizenship for people who earn it, and the mass of people clearly don't deserve citizenship.
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Old 1st March 2021, 07:57 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The argument is that, as her alleged crimes took place in a war zone, evidence would be extremely difficult to find. She would almost certainly be arrested upon arrival- but she would have to be released, due to lack of evidence. That's where the national security threat begins. Radicalised people tend to radicalise others, and that's where domestic terrorists come from. She would spread her poisonous beliefs everywhere she went.
On a personal note, I am deeply sceptical of her claimed repentance. Witnessing the atrocities committed by IS, after her arrival in Syria, did not spark any pangs of conscience. She showed no pity or contrition in that infamous interview. No, her claimed change of mind only happened when IS was militarily defeated, and she was captured. She's just looking for a way to escape the consequences of her actions and save her own skin.
Again, this is just my opinion, but I find the coincidence of capture and contrition to be highly suspicious.
Got it anyone suspected of radicalization should be stripped of their citizenship.
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Old 1st March 2021, 09:31 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The argument is that, as her alleged crimes took place in a war zone, evidence would be extremely difficult to find. She would almost certainly be arrested upon arrival- but she would have to be released, due to lack of evidence. That's where the national security threat begins. Radicalised people tend to radicalise others, and that's where domestic terrorists come from. She would spread her poisonous beliefs everywhere she went.
On a personal note, I am deeply sceptical of her claimed repentance. Witnessing the atrocities committed by IS, after her arrival in Syria, did not spark any pangs of conscience. She showed no pity or contrition in that infamous interview. No, her claimed change of mind only happened when IS was militarily defeated, and she was captured. She's just looking for a way to escape the consequences of her actions and save her own skin.
Again, this is just my opinion, but I find the coincidence of capture and contrition to be highly suspicious.
You mean she only publicly came out against the organisation that had groomed her, forced her into marriage and as you say committed atrocities when she was outside the grasp of that organisation? And you find that suspicious somehow?
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Old 1st March 2021, 09:33 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
The problem is she ran off to join a terrorist organization and continued to support them until ISIS started losing. The onus is on her to show she can be trusted, not on the UK to bend over backwards to accommodate her.
Consider this - a 15 year old girl being groomed by a pimp, runs away from home to be with her pimp, he abuses her for a few years. That woman should have to show that she has been reformed before we let her back into the UK?
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Old 1st March 2021, 04:56 PM   #717
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Consider this - a 15 year old girl being groomed by a pimp, runs away from home to be with her pimp, he abuses her for a few years. That woman should have to show that she has been reformed before we let her back into the UK?


Fifteen people! No way does a 15 year old have the requisite faculties to make an informed choice of that magnitude. In the US, a 15 year old isn't allowed to agree to binding contract.

I'm not a Brit, but no way would I hold this permanently against someone.
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Old 1st March 2021, 05:33 PM   #718
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Other than an understandable desire for karmic retribution against terrorists and religious fascists, is anyone in this thread able to articulate a moral justification for denying her citizenship and refusing to bring her home to stand trial?

In the US, for example, it is considered a violation of the right to due process in a criminal trial.
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:10 PM   #719
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Consider this - a 15 year old girl being groomed by a pimp, runs away from home to be with her pimp, he abuses her for a few years. That woman should have to show that she has been reformed before we let her back into the UK?
Pimps have declared war against our countries? If not, I don't see how your silly comparison makes any sense.
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Old 1st March 2021, 06:18 PM   #720
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Less a scathing dismissal as you might think. The girl's family might well think that the pimp who stole their daughter declared war on them.

If you still can't comprehend the comparison, the base facts are that malicious adults manipulated a child's mind until they also had full control of her body as well, now she has escaped their control, and is being penalized as though she was fully adult the entire time and a completely complicit partner to her captor's crimes.
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