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Old 21st June 2017, 02:51 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Kamehameha who stole everyone else's land in Hawaii is worshipped as or almost as a deity here. If the Hawaiians had the power they would most certainly do exactly as you ascribed to the Europeans
I am sure they would have, afterall look at the history of the Maori in my own country. My point isn't that the natives were more civilized than Europeans, it's that Europeans weren't superior and more civilized than the natives, they just had better weaponry.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:59 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yep. My brothers and I still enjoy taking down a tree with a hand saw or axes and then limbing the tree and sectioning it and splitting it for firewood. It is a good workout and useful work. Even if we have a chainsaw with a sharpened chain in the back of the truck for when we've had enough or just running out of time.

And that's orders of magnitude different from what these folks did.
I've done enough of it that the hard work does not impress me either.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 06:04 AM   #43
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That's the second-worst appeal to authority I've seen this week. Somehow equating making a rocking horse with making a boat and sailing around the world without modern navigation aids. Jesus, that must be an attempt at humour that I've somehow missed.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 12:55 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I've done enough of it that the hard work does not impress me either.
Not at all the point, but nice horse?
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Old 22nd June 2017, 02:57 PM   #45
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Descendants of Neanderthals use primitive power source to make forward progress. National Geographic article to follow.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 03:01 PM   #46
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And you just keep digging yourself in deeper.......
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Old 23rd June 2017, 10:37 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And you just keep digging yourself in deeper.......
I take that as a compliment, that I have enough impact that you are concerned about my posts.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:04 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Maybe casebro will next say that any idiot with a color camera is a greater artist then Da Vinci, Rembrandt, or the French Impressionists.....

Not likely, since they were all white.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That is a valid point.
I don't buy the whole "Indignious (for lack of a better word) people are morally superior to more technically advanced people" nonsense for a minute. The whole Rosseau concept of the "Noble Savage" is pure BS
Although that does not excuse the way that the Europeans treated the "natives". I think that US's treatment of Native Americans is, along with slavery, the two great blots on the US's history.
And it certainly does not excuse casebro's withering contempt for non Whites.
I agree. People are pretty much the same everywhere. And an evil is an evil. What some (many) Europeans did to Native Americans (and I'll include Hawaians here) was an evil, whatever evils some (many?) Native Americans did to one another. And, to add the obvious, the better the technology available the greater the evil that can be (was) achieved.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Descendants of Neanderthals use primitive power source to make forward progress. National Geographic article to follow.
Gee, clever! Where did the idea of outriggers/multihulls first achieve success? it seems like a major breakthrough!
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:06 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Once each for that and Slocumb's. Later, Bowditch. I appreciate Navigation.

I do not appreciate the recent glorifications of backwards technology. "Lived in congress with the land" is baloney, they raped the land the best they could. Have you read about the Polynesians extincting themselves at Easter Island? The American natives with 20,000 living in a village with no sewer system, later calling that valley taboo because of cholera? Aztec kings with cloaks made from the feathers of 2,000 hummingbirds? I think I prefer chlorine, Mylar, and a Sextant.
I am a sailor and I love sailing. But all sailing is a glorification of backwards technology in many ways, for all the advancements in materials and design. if you want to go around the world using current technology, then buy an airplane ticket. Or if you insist on using a boat, it is my understanding that diesels have displaced sails in terms of overall utility for more than 100 years.

Oh, BTW, no one uses a sextant anymore, and Mylar is a fairly ancient, although still used, material now. Not really a good example of cutting edge sailing tech.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 04:18 PM   #52
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Speaking for myself, It may be due to my over the top patriotism, but I am excited that my fellow Americans were so instrumental in recreating this part of our country's history! It was a fun and very challenging project, and I am proud of their success.

That is why I really enjoy the USA- we get to share one another's heritages. I get to share the thrill of this voyage; the sailors get to eat knishes now that they have returned.

BTW Casebro- what country are you from? Perhaps you are just jealous?
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Old 26th June 2017, 12:02 AM   #53
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nevermind
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Old 30th June 2017, 11:59 AM   #54
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Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C5%8...#363;leʻa[1][2] is a performance-accurate full-scale replica of a waʻa kaulua,[3][4]

Construction
Polynesian voyaging canoes were made from wood, whereas HōkūleĎa incorporates plywood, fiberglass and resin.[7]
The OP is a lie. I pointed that out. Instead of calling me a skeptic, on a skeptic site, I was called a racist. What a bunch of bigots you are that can't accept a different viewpoint.
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Old 30th June 2017, 12:06 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
To be fair, the Hokule'a has been around for decades, doing similar voyages, and was initially conceived to make a (semi) political point about the loss of culture. When the ship was first built, no one in the state knew how to navigate using anything other than modern methods. They had to bring in someone from Micronesia to first do the navigation for them, and eventually train others.

Even today, Hokule'a sails to advocate for awareness of the oceanic environment, and to encourage people to preserve and propagate various endangered cultural practices.

While I personally agree with these agendas, I do believe they do have political ramifications, and ironically, discussions such as the above were one of the desired results of the original dream.

http://www.hokulea.com/
See, the whole concept of the trip was political statement. But some here can't handle the least bit of rebuttal.
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Old 30th June 2017, 12:09 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
...

Either way: big ocean, little boat, little island waaaay out there.
And I did give credit where credit is due, their navigation.
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Old 30th June 2017, 12:56 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Jesus, H.............Is there nothing interesting or out of the usual in this world that doesn't lead to a sneer-fest here?

No-one suggested that this was some sort of inter-ethnic competition. No-one suggested that just because some Polynesians did this, that white people couldn't do it too. No one suggested that this voyage was any sort of political statement. Why the **** do some drongos have to make a political point about absolutely every damn story?


And this doesn't prove they did make it to all sorts of places, only that they could make it, which disproves those who say, "Obviously those canoes couldn't make such ocean-spanning trips!" (Even though they even more obviously traversed massive stretches of ocean to even make it to Hawaii and other Pacific islands in ancient times.)
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:32 AM   #58
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It raises the question for me of whether Europeans or Africans crossed to the Americas before the time of the Vikings.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 04:14 AM   #59
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I always get a chuckle when I read about how impressive the Polynesians were at navigation, the thousands of miles of open sea to find one tiny island. Okay, that was the successful ones, what about all the failures? Are there any records documenting the ratio of successful vs unsuccessful voyages? For all we know it could be they failed 99 out of a hundred times. The same could be said for any pre-historic seafaring civilization.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 06:58 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
For all we know it could be they failed 99 out of a hundred times. The same could be said for any pre-historic seafaring civilization.
So based on what you know of the size of the source populations and the populations of the islands that were discovered and settled on, how many voyages could these people have mounted. Did they have the resources (people and material) to sail about 100 times as many voyages you suggest happened if 99/100 failed?

Considering the skill it takes to survive at sea in a large canoe, chuckling was never my first response.

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Old 4th January 2018, 03:23 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So based on what you know of the size of the source populations and the populations of the islands that were discovered and settled on, how many voyages could these people have mounted. Did they have the resources (people and material) to sail about 100 times as many voyages you suggest happened if 99/100 failed?

Considering the skill it takes to survive at sea in a large canoe, chuckling was never my first response.
And not only that, but once they found one of those small islands, they had to be able to return to their own small island and show others the way back to the new one.
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Old 6th January 2018, 03:20 PM   #62
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With no records, we'll never know.
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Old 8th January 2018, 03:56 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
With no records, we'll never know.
We do have records, you just wouldn't recognise them.
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Old 8th January 2018, 04:43 AM   #64
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We have records of prehistoric voyages that never made it to land? Cool.
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Old 8th January 2018, 08:39 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
With no records, we'll never know.
But you're already passed judgment on them; you chuckled. Let us how you came to this decision please.
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Old 8th January 2018, 09:03 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So based on what you know of the size of the source populations and the populations of the islands that were discovered and settled on, how many voyages could these people have mounted. Did they have the resources (people and material) to sail about 100 times as many voyages you suggest happened if 99/100 failed?

Considering the skill it takes to survive at sea in a large canoe, chuckling was never my first response.
Agreed. The ability of Polynesian sailors/navigators to routinely voyage to and from known islands and fishing sites, even distant ones, much more often safely than not, is well established by written accounts by Westerners when they first happened upon these islands, as well as in native accounts. Plus people are among the critical resources you allude to, and they are not routinely suicidal- these voyages no doubt had significant dangers associated with them but it would have been impossible to recruit crew, let alone maintain a pool of sufficiently trained navigators, if 99/100 failed. "Hey guys, I know that the last 99 sailing canoes who tried disappeared without a trace, but let's give it another go, okay? How many of you are up for it? Good, good- now, now you all can't go! I'll just take the very first 15 who raised their hands." Just on this basis I would conclude that a substantial majority of voyages between known locations were successful.

It is harder to be certain how Polynesian voyagers discovered previously unknown islands. In some cases it was accidental: a canoe may have been blown off course and in re-routing to return home the crew stumbled upon a new island (and islands can be detected at a significant distance by changes in cloud patterns, wave patterns, bird species, etc). In other cases crews may have deliberately sought out to explore new territory; this desire is inherent in all humans and has driven human migrations from the time we first evolved in Africa. Notably these two methods are how Europeans discovered new islands.
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Old 8th January 2018, 06:39 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
We have records of prehistoric voyages that never made it to land? Cool.
We have the carved and the oral histories of those peoples that were involved in the explorations, and yes they were deliberate explorations, looking for new islands and lands beyond their own to make new homes on. If there were hundreds of canoes that went out and most never returned, it would be in the histories that were passed down, because it'd be a warning to future generations to be careful in leaving the islands.

Instead the histories tell us about how that great navigators were able to use the currents, the stars and and the signs of the sea (such as birds) to read the seas and find new lands. They tell the tales of explorers deliberately sailing on voyages of exploration, just as Europeans would do so a few hundred years later, find new lands and then return to gather people to migrate to the newly found land. According to the Histories, it was people like Kupe that did this and were very good at it.

Sailing and exploring for new islands is just a skill, it can be learned and taught. Humans are not stupid, they never have been. Egyptians managed to build the pyramids, ancient Britons built Stonehenge, The Aztecs, Inca, and Mayans build huge stone cities and temples. The Nabataeans carved Petra from the cliffs. These people were just as intelligence and skilled in their own ways as we are today, perhaps more considering that they did it all with a lack of modern tools and the centuries of accumulated knowledge we now have.
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Old 8th January 2018, 07:47 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
...I do not appreciate the recent glorifications of backwards technology. "Lived in congress with the land" is baloney, they raped the land the best they could. Have you read about the Polynesians extincting themselves at Easter Island? ...
A small objection to one of your points.

1. The Easter Island Polynesian they are not extinct.

b. The "ecocide" charge is most likely a bigoted myth created and perpetuated by the likes of Jared Diamond.
The most likely culprits are gradual deforestation by the introduction of the Polynesian rat and the a "finishing off" by European whalers bring disease and Peruvian slavers that further reduced the population.
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Old 8th January 2018, 08:05 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Not likely, since they were all white.
Not according to a Grauniad article

https://www.theguardian.com/artandde...r/12/art.italy
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