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Old 12th June 2018, 07:43 PM   #2161
d4m10n
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No thx.

I'm good right here in this well-moderated forum dedicated to discussion.
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Old 12th June 2018, 07:48 PM   #2162
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
No thx.

I'm good right here in this well-moderated forum dedicated to discussion.
Well, good luck finding a member who also happens to be a gender critical feminist. And who is also willing to argue this with you in the first place, for example Rolfe might be one - judging by her contributions in this thread - but she already stated not to want to discuss this with you anymore, IIRC.
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:04 PM   #2163
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
. . . she already stated not to want to discuss this with you anymore, IIRC.
Let's hope other gender critical folks don't flounce at the prospect of being called cisgender. The utter horror.
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:48 PM   #2164
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Are there other primates who are aware of differences in gender vs sex?
I'm sure biologically it happens so I'm not asking that. Just if it affects them on a personal awareness level or in group social interactions.
Can another primate be sad to have the physical body they are born with and consciously want the other one?
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:24 PM   #2165
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Sorry to backtrack for a second - was just catching up on this thread. I wasn't aware that "radical feminist" was a controversial term. I took a Women's Studies class just this spring, and I was taught that Radical Feminism is considered one of several general subgroups of feminism. Radical, liberal, postmodern/post-structuralist, Marxist, mainstream, and then some subcategories thereof.

I was also taught from this particular textbook and curriculum that "radical" feminism encompasses a very broad grouping, everything from lesbian separatists, TERFs, and staunch anti-capitalist feminists to anti-sex work feminists and cultural feminists.

Was this information largely incorrect? (I wouldn't be terribly surprised, if so. My university is in Western Pennsylvania, so yeah. I'm asking this question in good faith, I promise.)
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:43 PM   #2166
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Let's hope other gender critical folks don't flounce at the prospect of being called cisgender. The utter horror.
Since when did you have to be gender critical to be anti some unneeded prefix only invented in the late ninetys, in some weird need to sub group every single person, that no one really uses in real life?
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:30 AM   #2167
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Since when did you have to be gender critical to be anti some unneeded prefix only invented in the late ninetys, in some weird need to sub group every single person, that no one really uses in real life?
Okay. Can we just settle this bicker-ish aside right now?

"Cis" is realistically only a useful term in fairly academic discussions. Allow me to give an example.

Let's say a study has been performed. (This is a made-up study and statistic.) "Our research has found that trans-women are 30% more likely to engage in self-harm than cis-women." There. That is a context in which "cis" is useful. Imagine that study's outcome dictated without "cis" existing as a prefix. "Our research has found that trans-women are 30% more likely to self-harm than woman." Or, "our research has found that trans-women are 30% more likely to self-harm than natural women."

Do you see what I mean? Both of those hypothetical alternatives carry a judgmental, exclusionary connotation. People doing studies on these things have to maintain a dispassionate tone. That's the nature of research. A dispassionate tone is NOT conducive to any term connotating "REAL women." "Trans" and "cis" are useful terms for psycho-medical research. They are useful terms for discussions in that vein, even if those discussions are between laypeople, like ourselves.

Outside of that sort of context, I can't imagine anyone using "cis." If someone online happened to ask my gender (and I felt like telling them), I wouldn't say I'm a cis-woman. I'd just say I'm a woman, or I'm female. (Although I guess female is a bad word now too? Just learned that.)

If people are worried about "cis" creeping its way into everyday terminology, I personally believe they are worried for nothing. It's largely an academic term, and clearly useful in that context. I find it as neutral and inoffensive as "left-handed" for that reason.

All that being said, I would never persist in using the term as a reference toward someone who vocally finds it offensive, even within an academic context - same as with any term particular individuals might find personally offensive. But please, do not mistake my compliance in such matters for philosophical agreement. I like to be polite and make people feel comfortable. But "cis" as a term is not something I could reasonably consider a slur.

There are a lot of weird, academic, and categorical terms out there. Look into it - you won't believe the stuff eggheads feel the need to categorize and put a label on. You might as well get offended by the label "heterosexual," in my opinion. (Although, there probably is a subculture online who feels precisely that way.)

I would like to reiterate my reminder that there are trans people on this forum, whether they are posting anymore or not, whether they identify themselves as such or not. Be aware that everything you (general) are saying, you ARE probably saying it to their faces. Are you cool with that? Because I sure wouldn't be. This thread has a lot of unnecessary harshness, and I guess I wonder why so many of you think it is necessary.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:38 AM   #2168
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Quote:
"Our research has found that trans-women are 30% more likely to engage in self-harm than women."
FTFY

Question

Even your academic example is based on separating them.

Why?

Because they aren't the same as women
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:41 AM   #2169
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Okay. Can we just settle this bicker-ish aside right now?

"Cis" is realistically only a useful term in fairly academic discussions. Allow me to give an example.

Let's say a study has been performed. (This is a made-up study and statistic.) "Our research has found that trans-women are 30% more likely to engage in self-harm than cis-women." There. That is a context in which "cis" is useful. Imagine that study's outcome dictated without "cis" existing as a prefix. "Our research has found that trans-women are 30% more likely to self-harm than woman." Or, "our research has found that trans-women are 30% more likely to self-harm than natural women."

Do you see what I mean? Both of those hypothetical alternatives carry a judgmental, exclusionary connotation. People doing studies on these things have to maintain a dispassionate tone. That's the nature of research. A dispassionate tone is NOT conducive to any term connotating "REAL women." "Trans" and "cis" are useful terms for psycho-medical research. They are useful terms for discussions in that vein, even if those discussions are between laypeople, like ourselves.

Outside of that sort of context, I can't imagine anyone using "cis." If someone online happened to ask my gender (and I felt like telling them), I wouldn't say I'm a cis-woman. I'd just say I'm a woman, or I'm female. (Although I guess female is a bad word now too? Just learned that.)

If people are worried about "cis" creeping its way into everyday terminology, I personally believe they are worried for nothing. It's largely an academic term, and clearly useful in that context. I find it as neutral and inoffensive as "left-handed" for that reason.

All that being said, I would never persist in using the term as a reference toward someone who vocally finds it offensive, even within an academic context - same as with any term particular individuals might find personally offensive. But please, do not mistake my compliance in such matters for philosophical agreement. I like to be polite and make people feel comfortable. But "cis" as a term is not something I could reasonably consider a slur.

There are a lot of weird, academic, and categorical terms out there. Look into it - you won't believe the stuff eggheads feel the need to categorize and put a label on. You might as well get offended by the label "heterosexual," in my opinion. (Although, there probably is a subculture online who feels precisely that way.)

I would like to reiterate my reminder that there are trans people on this forum, whether they are posting anymore or not, whether they identify themselves as such or not. Be aware that everything you (general) are saying, you ARE probably saying it to their faces. Are you cool with that? Because I sure wouldn't be. This thread has a lot of unnecessary harshness, and I guess I wonder why so many of you think it is necessary.
Oh. With regard to harshness

I have said multiple times on this thread that I respect trans people and will call them whatever they want to be called.

But I fall short when it comes to people trying to force me to think they are women and not a bloke feeling they should have been one

Edit: apologies meant think
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Last edited by cullennz; 13th June 2018 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:42 AM   #2170
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
FTFY

Question

Even your academic example is based on separating them.

Why?

Because they aren't the same as women
Cullennz, all I can say is read my post.

Your question proves beyond a doubt that you skimmed it, and I'm afraid I can't be any more succinct than I was and still make my point. Gather your concentration, and read the whole thing.


ETA - Or don't, I don't care. But your question was answered already.

Last edited by isissxn; 13th June 2018 at 12:43 AM. Reason: I spelled your username wrong, sorry.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:46 AM   #2171
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Oh. With regard to harshness

I have said multiple times on this thread that I respect trans people and will call them whatever they want to be called.

But I fall short when it comes to people trying to force me to pretend they are women and not a bloke feeling they should have been one
Could you consider calling them "transwomen" at least, and not "blokes?" Because that would be a good start.

That's the sort of thing I mean. We don't always realize how cold some terminology can sound from the outside. Really consider it.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:24 AM   #2172
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Could you consider calling them "transwomen" at least, and not "blokes?" Because that would be a good start.

That's the sort of thing I mean. We don't always realize how cold some terminology can sound from the outside. Really consider it.
Fair call.

I apologise
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:30 AM   #2173
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Fair call.

I apologise
I wasn't trying to bust your balls. Only point it out.


I just know there's a happy middle-ground here for everybody.
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Old 13th June 2018, 03:55 AM   #2174
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Meanwhile, over in Connecticut, the state girls' 100 meter track champion has perfectly functioning testicles, not altered chemically or surgically. All this esoteric talk about definitions and what constitutes a woman or a radical feminist is all very well, but in the end there are practical consequences of not being able to tell the difference. She competed last fall, as a boy. Didn't do nearly as well. As a girl, she set all time event records in both the 100 and 200 meter sprints.

You want to call her a girl? Fine. But the idiocy of letting her compete in a girls' track meet is a slap in the face to the real girls who trained hard to try and win that event. Each school is only allowed to send a few girls to each track meet. That kid took someone else's spot.
Yep as wrong as letting Santhi Soundarajan use the womens bathrooms.
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Old 13th June 2018, 04:42 AM   #2175
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep as wrong as letting Santhi Soundarajan use the womens bathrooms.
I don't know who that is, but I'm sure if I looked it up, I would find some completely irrelevant situation that is a poor analogy to the situation at hand. It's what I expect from you.

Did Santhi train hard to perfect her skills for a competition, only to be replaced by someone with an inherent biological advantage? That's what happened in Connecticut. There will be an All New England track meet this year. All the people who qualified to compete there will be gifted athletes, but being gifted is not enough. At that level, you also have to be dedicated and work hard to develop that gift in order to win at that level. Everyone who qualified can be very proud of their accomplishment, and the winners at that level will be quite rightly looked up to as the best, and an example and inspiration to be admired.


Everyone, that is, except in the girls' 100 and 200 meter sprint competitions.
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:04 AM   #2176
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't know who that is, but I'm sure if I looked it up, I would find some completely irrelevant situation that is a poor analogy to the situation at hand. It's what I expect from you.

Did Santhi train hard to perfect her skills for a competition, only to be replaced by someone with an inherent biological advantage?
No she is a cis woman rejected from competition for failing the sex test.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6188775.stm

Caster Semenya is another example of this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:14 AM   #2177
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No she is a cis woman rejected from competition for failing the sex test.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6188775.stm

Caster Semenya is another example of this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
As expected, irrelevant.
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Old 13th June 2018, 06:59 AM   #2178
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I was also taught from this particular textbook and curriculum that "radical" feminism encompasses a very broad grouping, everything from lesbian separatists, TERFs, and staunch anti-capitalist feminists to anti-sex work feminists and cultural feminists.

That all seems right to me, isissxn, I just don’t think it is all that helpful when trying to discuss a particular issue. It is like trying to figure out a Christian's personal position on the eschaton by asking about their (sub)denominational affiliation instead of just asking them directly how they interpret the final book in the New Testament.


Does it matter to me that Janice Raymond is generally considered a radical feminist in good standing? Well, I suppose, sort of. It matters much more that she unapologetically characterizes trans identity as a form of rape.


Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Since when did you have to be gender critical to be anti some unneeded prefix only invented in the late ninetys, in some weird need to sub group every single person, that no one really uses in real life?



I intend to treat trans men and cis men the same way, in “real life” and in my interactions with real life people online.


That includes—among many other things—giving each group their own descriptive Latin prefix when discussing gender identity, in the unlikely event that the need arises to distinguish between the two groups.


Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I get it that you think of yourself as oh-so-progressive but you're really, really not - quite the opposite in fact.

I cannot recall ever referring to myself as any sort of progressive, much less on the “oh-so” end of the spectrum. I am profoundly offended that you choose to put this description on me without my consent.

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Old 13th June 2018, 09:07 AM   #2179
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I agree. I don't think the labels and subcategories of feminism are particularly helpful in these discussions either. I was simply surprised that some posters seemed to bristle at the term "radical feminism." Due to having just taken that class, I I figured it was a fairly unloaded term.

But if feminists are rejecting the label, I'll stop using it. I'm happy to stick to categorizations like "gender critical feminist." I thought TERFs called themselves TERFs, honestly. If it's a slur now, I'll banish it from my vocab, the same way I banished "SJW" a few years ago.

Language can be very tricky. It seems to be half the battle here, after all.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:55 AM   #2180
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Let's hope other gender critical folks don't flounce at the prospect of being called cisgender. The utter horror.
Again hypocrisy.

Self identification is sacred. .. except when someone who disagrees wroth you is involved.

Let's just make this easy, just give us a list of rules and benefits that don't apply to people who disagree with you so we know what roads not to go down.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:57 AM   #2181
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Self identification is sacred... except when someone who disagrees wroth you is involved.
I don't recall saying anything is sacred.

Desacralize everything, I say.

You should try reading what your interlocutors actually write instead of just making **** up.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:58 AM   #2182
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Could you consider calling them "transwomen" at least, and not "blokes?" Because that would be a good start.

That's the sort of thing I mean. We don't always realize how cold some terminology can sound from the outside. Really consider it.
If you are being nice its woman.

If you are being nice but factual is transwomen.

If you are just being factual, it's a male who feels they should have been born female.

If you are hassling people for being accurate, discussion will go no where. As it is currently doing.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:00 PM   #2183
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No she is a cis woman rejected from competition for failing the sex test.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6188775.stm

Caster Semenya is another example of this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
And?

Seriously I could reply to 50 power cent of the posts with that.

"This issue should be looked into"

"But look at this ****** situation!"

Every *********** time.

If your go to is guilt, you lost the debate.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:03 PM   #2184
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I agree. I don't think the labels and subcategories of feminism are particularly helpful in these discussions either. I was simply surprised that some posters seemed to bristle at the term "radical feminism." Due to having just taken that class, I I figured it was a fairly unloaded term.

But if feminists are rejecting the label, I'll stop using it. I'm happy to stick to categorizations like "gender critical feminist." I thought TERFs called themselves TERFs, honestly. If it's a slur now, I'll banish it from my vocab, the same way I banished "SJW" a few years ago.

Language can be very tricky. It seems to be half the battle here, after all.
Or.

People could **** off with being hung up on the language used and actually look to the content of the messege. You know like they demand everyone but them do.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:05 PM   #2185
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't recall saying anything is sacred.

Desacralize everything, I say.

You should try reading what your interlocutors actually write instead of just making **** up.
When you have to cut half the post it shows you just didn't have an answer.

Ballpark it then,scale of one to ten how important do you think self identification is? Let's see how well that translates to "if you don't like my term **** off "
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:10 PM   #2186
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Ballpark it then,scale of one to ten how important do you think self identification is?
How about this, instead?

You quote the part where I said anything about "self-identification" and then explain why it was wrongheaded, or just plain incorrect.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:19 PM   #2187
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Remember, gender is just a cultural construct. ...except perhaps for the ones that are just subcultural constructs. It's then subs all the way down, I think.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:36 PM   #2188
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https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...er-forum-rules

Mumsnet has been forced to introduce tough new rules over the discussion of transgender issues on its forums, after the parenting website found itself at the centre of a cultural battle around trans rights.

As part of the new policy Mumsnet moderators are now likely to delete potentially “hurtful” comments that use trans people’s former names, posts which use pronouns they have consciously rejected, or mention the term “Trans-Identified Male”.

In return, the Mumsnet moderators are likely to delete terms such as “cis” or “Terf” (Trans-exclusionary radical feminist) which will “make civil debate less likely” on the basis that they are are “affront” to many feminists.
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Old 13th June 2018, 12:55 PM   #2189
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How about this, instead?

You quote the part where I said anything about "self-identification" and then explain why it was wrongheaded, or just plain incorrect.
Why is it such a hard question to answer? (Don't worry is rhetorical I know it's because you realize that by saying you give a high value you seem hypocritical in telling women they have no right to their self identification , but by giving a low value it simply does not make sense with your points. )

Here I will do it first.

I'd say 2/10. Just important enough that if I don't have anything against someone I tend to go along if they are not being too over the top.

It's not a hard question, I'm not going to haggle you should be at a 9 if you say an 8. Just trying to get a Guage as to how important you find self identification as your posts are very conflicting as to your view.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:00 PM   #2190
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...er-forum-rules

Mumsnet has been forced to introduce tough new rules over the discussion of transgender issues on its forums, after the parenting website found itself at the centre of a cultural battle around trans rights.

As part of the new policy Mumsnet moderators are now likely to delete potentially “hurtful” comments that use trans people’s former names, posts which use pronouns they have consciously rejected, or mention the term “Trans-Identified Male”.

In return, the Mumsnet moderators are likely to delete terms such as “cis” or “Terf” (Trans-exclusionary radical feminist) which will “make civil debate less likely” on the basis that they are are “affront” to many feminists.
Instead of carding ******** they say "maybe we just shouldn't talk about these kinds of things". Nothing like hardcore Christians at all.

No one else sees this? That we are just putting a moustache on the same stupid taboos religion had?

The more life goes on the more I think the issue is when any ideology has power. I forget who the quote is from but "those who should have authority are those that want it the least. " seems more rock solid as time goes on. And the current crop of extreme left have boners and wet pants at the concept of having authority.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:03 PM   #2191
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If you are being nice its woman.

If you are being nice but factual is transwomen.

If you are just being factual, it's a male who feels they should have been born female.

If you are hassling people for being accurate, discussion will go no where. As it is currently doing.
Many people in the thread were bickering about language. I asked a question about a term and people's responses to it, and I also recommended someone use what you yourself called the "nice" term for a transgender woman. Because conversations go better if there's a degree of civility.

You guys can bicker about biology and gender all day. I've had nothing to say about any of that. It's confusing to me, and I have no input.

You know, it wasn't too long ago that you jumped all over another comment of mine in another thread. That time, you accused me of "erasing" transgender people and their experiences. Now, I tell someone it isn't polite to call transwomen blokes, and I'm hassling people and derailing the discussion with needless niceties. I don't understand what I'm supposed to do.
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Old 13th June 2018, 01:29 PM   #2192
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Just trying to get a [gauge] as to how important you find self identification as your posts are very conflicting as to your view.
Possibly this is because I haven't said much of anything about it. Instead, I've tried to use clinically diagnostic terms such as "gender dysphoria" which have reasonably clear meanings laid out in the relevant psychological literature and do not suffer from total subjectivity. Look, it's cool if you want to focus on "self-identification" and how it has been (mis)used by activists or policymakers—examples would be extra helpful—but please don't put words in my mouth.
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Old 13th June 2018, 02:21 PM   #2193
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Possibly this is because I haven't said much of anything about it. Instead, I've tried to use clinically diagnostic terms such as "gender dysphoria" which have reasonably clear meanings laid out in the relevant psychological literature and do not suffer from total subjectivity. Look, it's cool if you want to focus on "self-identification" and how it has been (mis)used by activists or policymakers—examples would be extra helpful—but please don't put words in my mouth.
Are you saying that trans people need to be clinically diagnosed before claiming their preferred gender?
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Old 13th June 2018, 02:32 PM   #2194
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Meanwhile, over in Connecticut, the state girls' 100 meter track champion has perfectly functioning testicles, not altered chemically or surgically. All this esoteric talk about definitions and what constitutes a woman or a radical feminist is all very well, but in the end there are practical consequences of not being able to tell the difference. She competed last fall, as a boy. Didn't do nearly as well. As a girl, she set all time event records in both the 100 and 200 meter sprints.

You want to call her a girl? Fine. But the idiocy of letting her compete in a girls' track meet is a slap in the face to the real girls who trained hard to try and win that event. Each school is only allowed to send a few girls to each track meet. That kid took someone else's spot.
I would love to see this happening across the nation. The unfairness of it would force the issue to the forefront. A national debate would expose the stupidity of the whole idea and we could stop all this nonsense. Everybody would have to come to terms with the fact that there are boys, there are girls, there are a very few people with some sort of rare physical aberration that makes them neither, and then there are the mentally ill.
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Old 13th June 2018, 02:33 PM   #2195
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Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
Are you saying that trans people need to be clinically diagnosed before claiming their preferred gender?
People can claim whatever they like.

It's a free country.
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Old 13th June 2018, 02:40 PM   #2196
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Originally Posted by Stankeye View Post
Are you saying that trans people need to be clinically diagnosed before claiming their preferred gender?
If by "claim" you mean have the preferred gender placed on legal documents and driver licenses and things like that, don't trans people already have to be clinically diagnosed in order to do that?
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Old 13th June 2018, 04:38 PM   #2197
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
If by "claim" you mean have the preferred gender placed on legal documents and driver licenses and things like that, don't trans people already have to be clinically diagnosed in order to do that?

In the U.S. that's the barest minimum, and it is rare for that to be sufficient. Most jurisdictions at least state that they want to see evidence of at least some sort of surgical modification, although what that consists of can be a gray area. That part is all over the place, though, and changing.

And it isn't necessarily all that easy to get that clinical diagnosis.

You can't just walk into a psychiatrist's office and say "I'm trans." and have them say "Okay. Here's your diagnosis." It's a lot more involved than that. The process usually takes at least a few years.
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Old 13th June 2018, 05:04 PM   #2198
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
In the U.S. that's the barest minimum, and it is rare for that to be sufficient. Most jurisdictions at least state that they want to see evidence of at least some sort of surgical modification, although what that consists of can be a gray area. That part is all over the place, though, and changing.
Exactly. This is why it is super helpful to state which particular jurisdiction and/or policy is under discussion, instead of vaguely handwaving in the direction of an ill-defined but ill-omened practice which may or may not be instantiated in reality.
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Old 14th June 2018, 02:57 AM   #2199
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
In the U.S. that's the barest minimum, and it is rare for that to be sufficient. Most jurisdictions at least state that they want to see evidence of at least some sort of surgical modification, although what that consists of can be a gray area. That part is all over the place, though, and changing.

And it isn't necessarily all that easy to get that clinical diagnosis.

You can't just walk into a psychiatrist's office and say "I'm trans." and have them say "Okay. Here's your diagnosis." It's a lot more involved than that. The process usually takes at least a few years.

But that's what the dispute is all about. That may be the legal situation where you are, but in Canada that is literally all you have to do. There's even a TV show where a female presenter did exactly that to show how easy it was and how little (read, no) gatekeeping there was. She put her blonde hair up inside a baseball cap I think, nothing else. She got a certificate to say she was legally a man.

There are moves afoot in both England and Scotland to introduce "self-identification" which means just that. Apparently it's too onerous and intrusive to have to talk to any medical practitioner and trans people insist that they simply be taken at their word, and the politicians are going along with it. Women who are concerned about this are being told they simply have to suck it up.
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Old 14th June 2018, 05:16 AM   #2200
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But that's what the dispute is all about. That may be the legal situation where you are, but in Canada that is literally all you have to do.

Nope.
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