ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 13th June 2018, 09:03 AM   #1
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,449
Will California split up?

Initiative to break California into 3 states to go on November ballot

I am kind of curious. California is not as liberal as many people think, the deserts east of Los Angeles were some of the most conservative places I ever visited in the U.S. This would split into three states, six senators. That might be the biggest impact nationwide, shifting the U.S. Senate from 100 people up to 104.

(New) California (centered on the LA area) would probably reliably deliver two Democratic Senators.

North California (including the SF Bay area and Sacramento, all points north from there) would probably be likely to produce two reliably Democratic Senators (but not as reliable as LA, due to the libertarian leaning areas in the far north and east parts of the area).

South California (San Diego, Imperial Valley, the far eastern deserts up to the northern end of Death Valley) would probably elect Republican Senators. Strong military vote in the San Diego area, strong conservative and libertarian leaning folks out in the deserts.

Will it happen? My guess is that many people the South eastern deserts would be happy to leave the state. Much of LA's water delivery system would end up in South California. People in the eastern deserts always thought they got a raw deal out of LA's water acquisition efforts.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 09:18 AM   #2
NoahFence
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
Puerto Rico should get statehood before California breaks up in my opinion.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 09:54 AM   #3
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
The proposal is sponsored by a billionaire venture capitalist. Whilst he could be motivated by the welfare of his fellow Californians, if not I'd like to know what's in it for him.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 10:18 AM   #4
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 11,277
Efforts to split CA are almost as old as CA.

The anti SoCal attitude in NoCal used to be rather extreme. When I told my friends I was moving to LA, they wanted to have me committed.

It won't happen.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 10:22 AM   #5
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,449
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Efforts to split CA are almost as old as CA.
That's true. Lots of different proposals.

Still, I'm thinking this is the first time its gone to the ballot. Even then seems like kind of a long shot.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 10:26 AM   #6
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,155
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I am kind of curious. California is not as liberal as many people think...
Well, Clinton managed to get roughly 2/3s of the votes in California, so it does sound fairly liberal.

Quote:
...the deserts east of Los Angeles were some of the most conservative places I ever visited in the U.S.
But what is the population/voter density of those desert areas?

Reminds me of the maps that Trump supporters like to post showing the large geographic areas that Trump won, with relatively tiny areas that Clinton won. Of course, it ignores the fact that empty geographic land does not vote... people do.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 10:38 AM   #7
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,449
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, Clinton managed to get roughly 2/3s of the votes in California, so it does sound fairly liberal.


But what is the population/voter density of those desert areas?

Reminds me of the maps that Trump supporters like to post showing the large geographic areas that Trump won, with relatively tiny areas that Clinton won. Of course, it ignores the fact that empty geographic land does not vote... people do.
I was thinking more along the lines that some people might assume that all three new Californias would vote Dem, and that this would add four reliably Democratic seats to the senate.

That would not happen. it's not that liberal.

Although the desert areas are not well populated, when added to Imperial Valley and San Diego, you get at most a swing state. It might even be reliably Republican state.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 10:56 AM   #8
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,467
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Although the desert areas are not well populated, when added to Imperial Valley and San Diego, you get at most a swing state. It might even be reliably Republican state.


That sounds more like a feature than a bug, to me. Otherwise, what chance is there that the Republicans would just accept two extra states that will vote Democratic?
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 11:04 AM   #9
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,449
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
That sounds more like a feature than a bug, to me. Otherwise, what chance is there that the Republicans would just accept two extra states that will vote Democratic?
It also dilutes Cali's Electoral College vote. Right now, all of the State's EC votes go the Democratic candidate (at least that's been the case for many years now). Under three states, 1/3 of those might go GOP.

Realistically, the Senate votes are a wash - adding four new seats, two in a GOP leaning state and two in a Democratic leaning state. But the Dems lose Electoral College votes.

Overall it looks like this split would benefit the Republican Party more than it would benefit the Democratic Party. (I don't think all of the other myriad proposals to split the state would do that).
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 11:10 AM   #10
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,282
Can’t they just wait for the plate tectonics to run its course?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 11:48 AM   #11
Elagabalus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,627
No way the 805 joins SoCal!!








ETA:No way the 805 joins NorCal!!

Last edited by Elagabalus; 13th June 2018 at 11:50 AM.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 11:59 AM   #12
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,155
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I was thinking more along the lines that some people might assume that all three new Californias would vote Dem, and that this would add four reliably Democratic seats to the senate.
I don't think anyone was thinking that at all
Quote:
That would not happen. it's not that liberal.
Regardless of how left or right leaning a state is, you can ALWAYS (in theory) carve out a section that will vote differently than the majority. Even in right-wing states like Texas or Georgia have enclaves (mostly urban areas) that voted for Clinton in the 2016 election.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 12:08 PM   #13
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,155
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It also dilutes Cali's Electoral College vote. Right now, all of the State's EC votes go the Democratic candidate (at least that's been the case for many years now). Under three states, 1/3 of those might go GOP.

Realistically, the Senate votes are a wash - adding four new seats, two in a GOP leaning state and two in a Democratic leaning state. But the Dems lose Electoral College votes.

Overall it looks like this split would benefit the Republican Party more than it would benefit the Democratic Party. (I don't think all of the other myriad proposals to split the state would do that).
I believe there was an episode of the Daily show that had a segment talking about various proposals to split California. Most of the segment talked about a proposal to split the state into 2... a lower west coast segment (that would probably be solidly democrat) and a northern/eastern segment that would probably end up going republican.

That 2-way split would be of even more benefit to the republicans... all new senators and electoral college seats that would be solidly republican, and no additional senators or college seats to the democrats (over and above the 2 senators from the lower west segment which they already had, and whatever electoral college seats were left out.)

https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/sta...22943830478848
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 12:16 PM   #14
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 16,142
Three smaller states would get more votes total in the Electoral College than one big Cali.

What are actually the reasons and objectives for splitting California? Is it just electoral arithmetic, i.e. the same as the reasons for gerrymandering?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 12:22 PM   #15
Elagabalus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,627
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Three smaller states would get more votes total in the Electoral College than one big Cali.

What are actually the reasons and objectives for splitting California? Is it just electoral arithmetic, i.e. the same as the reasons for gerrymandering?

There's some old scores to settle.


Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 12:23 PM   #16
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,935
Quote:
Will California split up?
Nah.

It's not all that uncommon to see these crank movements to split up a state/leave the US/etc. The only somewhat successful ones I've seen are local governments where wealthy (and white) communities sometimes split off from black/Hispanic communities because of "economics". I really doubt this one will go anywhere during this election cycle, for a number of basic reasons at the federal level - representation - and the local - how to split up taxes/assets/etc.
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 12:26 PM   #17
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,155
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Three smaller states would get more votes total in the Electoral College than one big Cali.

What are actually the reasons and objectives for splitting California? Is it just electoral arithmetic, i.e. the same as the reasons for gerrymandering?
Well, in theory splitting a state could lead to better representation for its voters. After all, if a state has both urban and rural areas, the needs of each area will be different, and splitting it in 2 (where leaders in one state would have to deal mainly with urban issues and leaders in the other state would be able to concentrate on rural issues.)

In this case however, I think its just purely electoral arithmetic... trying to maximize the influence of the republican party.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 12:47 PM   #18
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 7,469
It's already 3 states: California, Baja California Norte and Baja California Sur.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 01:04 PM   #19
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,142
The national implications for breaking up a super-state hint at the silliness of perpetual compromises forged in colonial times. According to the 1790 census, the biggest disparity between states was 11 to 1; now it is 68 to 1. Los Angeles county alone would be the 11th biggest state in the country.

"We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." -- Thomas Jefferson, rapist.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 01:06 PM   #20
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 28,415
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It's already 3 states: California, Baja California Norte and Baja California Sur.
That would definitely explain why people keep talking about splitting it up. Because even though it's got several distinct cultural-economic terroirs, it's not actually three states.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 01:18 PM   #21
Elagabalus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,627
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
... Los Angeles county alone would be the 11th biggest state in the country...
Not after they cut your water. Bwahahahahahahha ....


Originally Posted by Cain View Post
"We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." -- Thomas Jefferson, obvious fat bastard and rapist.
FTFY!!
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 01:50 PM   #22
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 45,435
Why do we retain any state's historic boundaries? Wouldn't it make sense to redo the national subdivisions to reflect the current population distribution? Do we really need fifty states? Let's reduce to twenty, and make the shapes as close to perfect rectangles as the landscape allows, and make sure none of them cross time zone borders. This would make things simpler and cheaper for everyone. Also no state should begin with the same letter as another state, to lessen confusion.
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 01:54 PM   #23
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,385
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Do we really need fifty states? Let's reduce to twenty...
What would be the arguments against increasing the number of states, so that there are (say) hundreds?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 02:12 PM   #24
DevilsAdvocate
Illuminator
 
DevilsAdvocate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,836
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What would be the arguments against increasing the number of states, so that there are (say) hundreds?
Second graders memorizing state capitals won't love you anymore.
__________________
Heaven forbid someone reads these words and claims to be adversely affected by them, thus ensuring a barrage of lawsuits filed under the guise of protecting the unknowing victims who were stupid enough to read this and believe it! - Kevin Trudeau
DevilsAdvocate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 02:23 PM   #25
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why do we retain any state's historic boundaries? Wouldn't it make sense to redo the national subdivisions to reflect the current population distribution? Do we really need fifty states? Let's reduce to twenty, and make the shapes as close to perfect rectangles as the landscape allows, and make sure none of them cross time zone borders. This would make things simpler and cheaper for everyone. Also no state should begin with the same letter as another state, to lessen confusion.
Because of their sovereign origins. 13 equal sovereigns formed a republic that unites entities that have full sovereignty if not part of the organization.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 02:30 PM   #26
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,560
These proposals get floated as regular as clockwork. There has been talk of splitting Arizona into southern and northern sections as well. Does anybody know the last time a state split into two parts?

West Virginia seceded from Virginia during the Civil War and was admitted to the Union in 1863.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 04:35 PM   #27
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 45,435
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because of their sovereign origins. 13 equal sovereigns formed a republic that unites entities that have full sovereignty if not part of the organization.
That's the past. This is the present. I don't believe 21st century America has a Confucian obligation to ancestors to preserve their political boundaries. We can rearrange our civilization as we please, to suit ourselves. The dead don't get a vote, except in the most irregular and unwelcome circumstances.
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 04:42 PM   #28
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 16,769
It's useful to remember that those deserts have almost no one in them. I used to go quail hunting in the high desert. You're talking about vast stretches of land in between people. Yes, the people out there are conservative but so what? There aren't many people there, comparatively speaking.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 04:45 PM   #29
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 40,314
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Efforts to split CA are almost as old as CA.

The anti SoCal attitude in NoCal used to be rather extreme. When I told my friends I was moving to LA, they wanted to have me committed.

It won't happen.
This happens about once every ten years.
Always goes nowhere.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2018, 04:46 PM   #30
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 40,314
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
These proposals get floated as regular as clockwork. There has been talk of splitting Arizona into southern and northern sections as well. Does anybody know the last time a state split into two parts?

West Virginia seceded from Virginia during the Civil War and was admitted to the Union in 1863.
Dakota territory was split into North and South Dakota,but that was before the Dakotas gained statehood.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 12:26 AM   #31
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,382
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Canít they just wait for the plate tectonics to run its course?
Arizona Bay...
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 03:50 AM   #32
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 43,858
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Not after they cut your water. Bwahahahahahahha ....
That would be a huge national issue not some state issue. But seriously this is about as likely as the colorado river reaching the sea.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 04:07 AM   #33
Parsman
Muse
 
Parsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 538
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Arizona Bay...
STILL miss Bill Hicks. Imagine the hay he'd be making just now...
__________________
I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus

When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid.
Parsman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 04:10 AM   #34
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,474
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The proposal is sponsored by a billionaire venture capitalist. Whilst he could be motivated by the welfare of his fellow Californians, if not I'd like to know what's in it for him.
Ah, such cynicism. It's almost as if he wants to split off the wealthy tech enclave and leave the rest of the state to fail.
Oh, wait...

BTW he got the signatures for the ballot by paying US$3 per person to get them to sign. The measure enjoys ~15% support and would fail anyway.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 05:03 AM   #35
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's the past. This is the present. I don't believe 21st century America has a Confucian obligation to ancestors to preserve their political boundaries. We can rearrange our civilization as we please, to suit ourselves. The dead don't get a vote, except in the most irregular and unwelcome circumstances.
It is the present. No one looks at the EU and starts trying to rearrange those borders.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 05:39 AM   #36
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,474
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What would be the arguments against increasing the number of states, so that there are (say) hundreds?
Prettier star patterns on flags?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 05:40 AM   #37
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,474
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why do we retain any state's historic boundaries? Wouldn't it make sense to redo the national subdivisions to reflect the current population distribution? Do we really need fifty states? Let's reduce to twenty, and make the shapes as close to perfect rectangles as the landscape allows, and make sure none of them cross time zone borders. This would make things simpler and cheaper for everyone. Also no state should begin with the same letter as another state, to lessen confusion.
Thanks for that, now I have another item for the The North American Technate's policy plans.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 05:53 AM   #38
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 13,518
I'm an arizonan before I am an American.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 05:54 AM   #39
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,467
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is the present. No one looks at the EU and starts trying to rearrange those borders.


There is some difference between a union that is about 30 years old, comprising member states that differ in culture and language, who were at war with each other several times in the last hundred years, and a union that is over two hundred years old, and has a much more uniform national culture, and common language, who's last war amongst themselves was over 150 years ago.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2018, 05:56 AM   #40
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,474
What the US needs is lots more states. I suggest, to start with:
  • Absaroka (bits of Montana and the Dakotas)
  • Adelsverien (central Texas)
  • The Free City of Boston
  • Charlotania (another Canadian border chunk)
  • Chippewa (another chunk of Montana, this one resisted incorporation into Greater Canada)
  • Comancheria (some of Texas and New Mexico)
  • The Republic of Greater New York
  • Montezuma
  • Nickajack
  • North Slope (northern Alaska, wanted to join Canada faster than the rest)
  • East Washington (formerly DC until the Great Split)
  • South Florida
  • The Free Republic of New Orleans
  • South California
  • East California
  • West Florida
  • Yazooo (another bit of the former New Confederacy that broke up after the Intervention)
  • Acadia (pro-Canada Maine)
  • Chesapeake (formerly part of Maryland)
  • Chicago (thought all the "Free City" stuff was silly)
  • Jefferson (some, but not all, of norther California)
  • Forgottonia (a small chunk of west Illinois)
  • Jacinto (east Texas)
  • Franklin (formerly the east of Tennessee)
  • Lincoln (northern Idaho)
  • Mcdonald (south-western Missouri)
  • Muskogee (another fragment of Florida, in the west)
  • Nataqa (part of Nevada)
  • Popham (very pro-Canadian annexation bit of Maine)
  • Sequoyah
  • Shasta (part of northern California)
  • South Jersey
  • South Texas
  • Texlahoma (guess)
  • Sierra (part of the former state of California)
  • Transylvania (a probably vampire free chunk of the former states of Tennessee and Kentucky)
  • Vandalia (Virginia III)
  • West Kansas
  • Pacificia (part of the former state of California)
  • Gadsen (southern Arizona)
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:40 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.