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Tags Russia history , Russia issues , Russia politics

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Old 12th July 2018, 01:35 PM   #761
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Just like the Germans' other ally, the Japanese.
Except, of course, that Vixen is lying. The Finnish 6th division was part of the German XXXVI Corps, and that and the Finnish 3th Division was part of German AOK Norway during Operation Arctic Fox. It's out of the question that the Finnish soldiers of those division didn't salute their German superiors.
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:43 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Except, of course, that Vixen is lying. The Finnish 6th division was part of the German XXXVI Corps, and that and the Finnish 3th Division was part of German AOK Norway during Operation Arctic Fox. It's out of the question that the Finnish soldiers of those division didn't salute their German superiors.
These two divisions were deployed under JOINT Finnish German command VERY BRIEFLY in Operation Arctic Fox.

It is a tiny footnote in the history of the Continuation War.

I can promise you, they did not salute Germans, they are not a subservient people.
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Last edited by Vixen; 12th July 2018 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:52 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
These two divisions were deployed under JOINT Finnish German command VERY BRIEFLY in Operation Arctic Fox.

It is a tiny footnote in the history of the Continuation War.

I can promise you, they did not salute Germans, they are not a subservient people.
4.5 month is not "very briefly".
And it's not "joint" command, AOK Norway was a German command.
And saluting within the army has nothing to do with being subservient.
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:04 PM   #764
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Every times the strings of excuses fail, the outrage comes out. Sneaky tactics.
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:03 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Every times the strings of excuses fail, the outrage comes out. Sneaky tactics.
Yeah - and everybody gets swamped by tons of straw...
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:11 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Yeah - and everybody gets swamped by tons of straw...
Though the accusations of "Stalinism" are kinda funny.

If I've developed any sympathies for Stalin, it's only because Vixen's done her very best to convince me that anti-Stalinists are completely full of govno.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:45 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
4.5 month is not "very briefly".
And it's not "joint" command, AOK Norway was a German command.
And saluting within the army has nothing to do with being subservient.
What on earth does AOK Norway have to do with it?
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:49 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Every times the strings of excuses fail, the outrage comes out. Sneaky tactics.
That is what is wrong with a prejudiced person. They cannot believe their beloved assumptions are incorrect, as they would have to question where these beliefs came from in the first place.

The next thing you know, when reality dawns that you have structured your entire view of the world on trite clichés and platitudes, it is easier for the average person to cling onto their prejudices, as an examination of their belief system would be too much to bear.
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:22 PM   #769
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Marras, could you comment on the veracity of that?
The order exists but it was not written by Oesch. It was issued by the fortification department of the IV Corps and the text was written by engineer captain Veli Suomio.

The immediate background of the order was that Oesch did an inspection to POW camp L-21 together with lieutenant colonel Matti Oinonen who was in charge of engineering works on Kerelian Isthmus. The officer in charge of the camp was the murdering bastard Eero Nero.

What exactly happened during the inspection is not completely clear as there are no impartial reports. The most likely turn of events was that Nero told Oesch that in late September there had been a severe disturbance in the camp that was in danger of escalating into an open rebellion and that he had defused it by executing the three ringleaders. Oesch then commended Nero for his quick acting. The disturbance was that the prisoners refused to go to work. Other camp leaders managed to solve cases like that without executions. One result of Oesch's commendation was that in the future Nero would shoot someone every time he felt that camp discipline was in danger, and that happened ever more often as his grasp of reality started to slip and he developed paranoia over the Winter. In the end he believed that POWs were planning to kill him by crawling into his room through a stovepipe (that has a diameter of about 15 cm or 6 inches).

After the visit Oesch and Oinonen had a discussion after which Oesch gave Oinonen instructions on POW treatment. Then, Oinonen relayed them to the Suomio who was in charge the fortification department of the corps and he wrote the text of the order as the POW camps were administratively under his department.

After the war Oesch claimed that Oinonen and Suomio had misunderstood his instructions and that he didn't became aware of the order until late 1942. The latter part might be even true, as it was expected that only important matters would be presented to the commander and Oinonen may well have considered it to be not important. But it's quite difficult to believe that the order would include the words (my translation): "Prisoners who refuse to follow orders have to be executed on the spot as a warning for others. The corps commander has given full authorization for this in the area of the corps" if Oesch hadn't really said that to Oinonen.

I'm not going to guess who of the three added the 'Muscovite' part. The original text uses 'ryssä' which was historically a neutral way to denote Russians but that became a slur around the end of the 19th century. The sentiment that Russians are bullies who latch on perceived weakness but cover in fear from strength was common among Finnish nationalist circles.

Oinonen escaped a war crime sentence by dying shortly after the war. I can't remember whether he drunk himself to death or if it was a suicide.
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:23 PM   #770
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Hmm, bit tedious discussion, anyway I find this article pretty helpful in explaining Finland's rather unique role in the WW2 as a Western democracy fighting as Hitler's ally:

https://www.haaretz.com/1.5122760

Btw, that field synagogue a few kilometres from German positions has always seemed like a quite decent and telling detail. By and large Finland did pretty well in desperate circumstances with the West shut out of the mainland Europe and kept her democracy and Nordic way of life intact.
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:07 AM   #771
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Riiiiight. Finland always wanted to be a Stalinist state, like Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Estonia, or alternatively, an occupied Nazi state, like Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Greece, France, Guernsey.
So, was Finland actually under threat of occupation from Germany?
You haven't actually shown us anything that says that.

I have seen nothing that suggests any attempt to say "no thanks" to the Germans wrt 1941.

Originally Posted by kayle View Post
you must have an ocean of other alternatives to offer, I guess? or is your alternative the FSSR, Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic?
Um, no.
But signing on for the invasion in 1941 actually made that a more likely result, since victory in Russia was very unlikely.

Look. I can see why it happened, but that doesn't make it the correct thing to have done, or make it immune from criticism.
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:57 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
So, was Finland actually under threat of occupation from Germany?
Yes, depending on exact time period and areas of country. See for example what happened in Yugoslavia when Hitler's supporters were kicked out of the power.

In particular, there was absolutely no way that Petsamo area wouldn't be occupied by Germans - I say occupied not attacked because Finland didn't have any way to defend it. The reason is they would not risk that the Kolosjoki nickel mine would fall to Soviet hands. While the production facilities were still under construction, it was already known that it would be the richest nickel mine to the date in Europe. In our timeline it ended up producing about 1/3 of all nickel that German industry used in the late period of the war. The German steel industry would have suffered a heavy blow without it.

Quote:
But signing on for the invasion in 1941 actually made that a more likely result, since victory in Russia was very unlikely.
Do you happen to have some sort of scenario that lets Finland survive a pre-Operation Barbarossa 1941 invasion by the Red Army? Because that would have happened without German protection. The Germans had once already thrown Finland to Soviet Union. The reason they didn't do that again in November 1940 was because they thought that Finland would be more useful as an ally than as a diversion for Red Army forces. Note also Germans told the Finnish government about Soviet interests soon after Molotov's trip happened. Not that they came as a surprise as the Soviet government had already shown by its actions that it didn't consider the Moscow peace to be final.

And again, Finland was dependent on food and fuel imports. Where do they come from if Finland angers Germany in Summer 1941 reneging the attack deal and Soviet Union is caught in battle for survival against Germany?

The Finnish government didn't think that it would be possible to stay out of the oncoming war between Germany and Soviet Union, so they decided to cast the lots with Germany as the lesser evil.
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Old 13th July 2018, 03:44 AM   #773
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That's cheating...
I was trying to see what Vixen would produce.

I do know Finland was somewhat between a rock and a hard place, something Sweden wasn't (not having a heavy weight neighbour).

I will say I don't see Germany allowing a second Soviet attack, though, for pretty much the reason you state...the mines. Not sure how they would have prevented it, though, with an uncooperative Finland, short of replacing the people in charge.
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Old 13th July 2018, 04:33 AM   #774
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
These two divisions were deployed under JOINT Finnish German command VERY BRIEFLY in Operation Arctic Fox.

It is a tiny footnote in the history of the Continuation War.

I can promise you, they did not salute Germans, they are not a subservient people.
Why do you keep giving the definition of an alliance and then say that there was no alliance.
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Old 13th July 2018, 11:09 AM   #775
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Why do you keep giving the definition of an alliance and then say that there was no alliance.
There was no formal alliance but of course we were allied de facto - though not willing to cut the Murmansk railroad where it mattered or to participate actively in the siege of Leningrad. I would say that Finland rather ruthlessly looked after its own interests and did the minimum possible for Germans. No wonder with for example both Mannerheim and Ryti being anglophiles: Ryti rather openly telling his associates that he was hoping for a repeat of WW1, the collapse of both Germany and Russia and the sole victory of the Western allies and Mannerheim thinking that Germans were "cut throats and gangsters" and saying that he loathed doing business with them.
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Old 14th July 2018, 01:05 AM   #776
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My notes from:

Quote:
5.10.1943 TIMES

FINLAND’S DILEMMA

MOVES FOR A SEPARATE PEACE WITH RUSSIA

HESITATIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT

FINLAND’S rejection of offer by US to help reach understanding with Russia last April (1943)

- Also rejected a German demand to announce it would fight until a German victory
- the Finnish SS Waffen battalion returning from Russia was disbanded.

3.9.1943…’in the Riksdag (Reichstag) in camera Premier Linkomies said, “Finland had neither military nor political treaties with Germany.

…of the 33 prominent citizens who had signed the petition to President Ryti, on 20.8.1943, 21 of the 33 were Swedes…the authors of the petition were surprisingly pleased with the outcome.


Anglo-Finnish state of war:

The obstacles to separate peace:
- German troops in North Finland (seven divisions)
- Vitally important Finnish imports of food from Germany
- 400,000 tons of grain needed annually.
- Finland must import half and almost exclusively from Germany.

But, Finland could feed itself for at least six months on reserve supplies and current crops.

In August, 1943, some 33 influential people had petitioned the government for peace:

Quote:
24.8.1943 TIMES

WAR WEARINESS IN FINLAND

FORMAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

..’on Friday President Ryti received a deputation from 33 prominent Finnish citizens who urged him to secure peace with Russia – a peace, they said, assuring Finland of security and independence….’
The collapse of the Italian side of the Axis was the beginning of the end for the Germans (the Finnish government remained a western democracy):

Quote:
28.9.1943 TIMES

THROUGH GERMAN EYES

NAZI REACTIONS TO THE FASCIST COLLAPSE

EXPLANATIONS AND THREATS

THE FALLING AWAY OF FASCIST ITALY FROM THE AXI HAS PROFOUNDLY SHAKEN THE NAZIS.

Dr. Ley in Angriff – King Victor Emmanuel described as a “royal blackguard” and “royal poison gnome”, “House of Savoy is one unbroken chain of treason, murder and desperate conduct.”

The Swedish press brought out a pamphlet [quotable!]


Just Imagine (Man stelle sich vor)

After remarking that Goebbels’s propaganda was trying to pretend that the collapse of Fascism meant no change, it asked the reader to picture the same thing in Germany.

Imagine Hitler [it ran] trying to avoid a catastrophe by resigning his post, leaving the government to the military and retiring to Berchtesgaden; the officials and soldiers declaring their sympathies were with the rebellious workers; all the party offices closing down,…Imagine Göring, Himmler, Goebbels, and all the others being arrested and imprisoned; the excited masses breaking into the houses and palaces of the National-Socialist dogs and distributing the hoarded foodstuffs among the population. Imagine hundreds of thousands of people demanding that the Gestapo should release their prisoners; this demand being granted, and members of the Gestapo being taken off to concentration camps. Try to imagine this Then you will know what has really happened in Italy.’

…The Neueste Nachrichten blamed the class system in Italy – it retained the aristocracy and monarchy – it stopped the revolution short of abolishing class.

“History will prove Hitler right in taking the hand offered by Duce.[= Mussolini] Besides, everyone takes his friends where he finds them…even a weak friend is better than a strong enemy.

During the spring 1941, two new SS Waffen Standarten (Regiments) arrived: the 6th and 7th. After a short time, the 6th SS, with large elements from the 9th SS, moved into positions at Salla in Northern-Finland. General von Falkenhorst did, however, not trust their fighting ability very much, because even If the formations were well equipped, the men were poorly trained. The two latter regiments crossed the Finnish/Norwegian border, and were ready at Salla the 22nd June, 1941.

As the attack on Soviet came, the divisions, now usually called "Brigades", were thrown into the battle at Markajärvi-Salla. They suffered great losses, and were an expected disappointment to the German commanders: Falkenhorst and Buschenhagen. The SS forces lost 700 men the first two days in combat with strong Russian forces (300 KIA and 400 WIA).

The Brigade got a new unit attached, SS-Gebirgsartillerie-Regiment 6, and was now redesigned as a Division. During the autumn 1941, the Division was handed over to the battle-hardened Finnish General Hjalmar Siilasvuo (this was the only time that an SS Division was commanded by a foreign officer), and took positions at Louchi/Kiestinki.


SS Div VI, not to be confused with Finnish Army div 6*, who were also there, no more than 4.5 months at the start of the war, out of a total of 39 months (June 1941 - Aug 1944) - the only time there was an allied effort, in the true meaning of the word. (Joint German-Finnish command).

*This division was redeployed and was key in the decisive Battle of Tali-Ihantala, June 25 to July 9, 1944, which succeeded in fending off a Soviet invasion of Finland, as was the USSR plan. (Probably all along, even before the German attack on USSR.)
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Old 23rd July 2018, 02:28 AM   #777
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ddt claimed I was wrong that 'Fleming' was a Scottish name.

Quote:
The family is probably where the name suggests Flemish (Flemish) origin, but may also have come from the Flemish landscape in Brandenburg. The alleged descent from the Flaminis in Rome must be relegated to the scene of the saga. The name is, in addition to Denmark and Sweden, simultaneously in Scotland, Pomerania, Poland, and other countries, borne by unrelated families, conducting different weapons. A Claus Fleming, named between 1331-1354, who was in Barth in Pomerania, may possibly have been the father of the elder of the family with full certainty, his ancestor, the knight Peder Fleming, and in that case the grandfather of the team-mate Klas Fleming. In an old family book in the Rålambian collection in the royal library, this is said to be "come by Pomeranian".
https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Fleming_nr_4

::
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Old 24th July 2018, 03:35 AM   #778
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That's just saying you find the name in the those countries.

The origin is pretty clear, regarding Flemish.
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Old 24th July 2018, 02:02 PM   #779
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
That's just saying you find the name in the those countries.

The origin is pretty clear, regarding Flemish.
But it is also not incorrect to say it is Scottish.
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Old 24th July 2018, 02:17 PM   #780
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Wiki has this to say...

Fleming is a surname, likely indicating an ultimate descent from a Flemish immigrant - though this might be so remote that no record of it remains other than the name.
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Old 24th July 2018, 02:26 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Wiki has this to say...

Fleming is a surname, likely indicating an ultimate descent from a Flemish immigrant - though this might be so remote that no record of it remains other than the name.
The nobility often took on the name of their estate. So it probably comes from the name of the homestead, which isn't necessarily Flemish at all.
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Old 25th July 2018, 06:13 AM   #782
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The nobility often took on the name of their estate. So it probably comes from the name of the homestead, which isn't necessarily Flemish at all.
So you've got nothing and you switch to another cop-out. Regarding your earlier quote:
Quote:
The family is probably where the name suggests Flemish (Flemish) origin, but may also have come from the Flemish landscape in Brandenburg.
you do realize that the "Flemish landscape" in Brandenburg is so called because there were Flemish settlers there?

Freely associating on that, there's a town and landscape in East Prussia called "Prussian Holland" because it was settled by people from Holland (the historical county, not the misnomer for the country The Netherlands). That may (or may not) have been Gijsbrecht IV van Amstel, lord of Amstelland, and some of his followers, after he had participated in a plot against Floris V, count of Holland, who ended up being murdered by some of the plotters.

And that brings me back to an open end in an earlier discussion:
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Originally Posted by Vixen
If 4/5ths of a population are serfs, as in feudal Russia, that means 1/5 are the nobles.
You're making (only) two mistakes here. First of all, you're forgetting that there were also commoners. Second, you're mixing two categories.

I don't know about feudal Russia, but in the HRE, nobles did marry serfs. For instance, ca. 1140, Badeloch, the daughter of Gijsbrecht Bothensone, Lord of Muiden - so clearly a noblewoman - married a serf named Egbert.
The serf in the above story was Egbert van Amstel, the great-great-grandfather of Gijsbrecht IV. He was a ministerialis, i.e., he was a serf (unfree) and at the same time a nobleman. All throughout the Holy Roman Empire, dukes, counts, bishops, etc., employed unfree ministeriales for positions at their courts as well as to rule in their name a part of their realm. A ministerialis was at the same time a serf, unfree, as well as a nobleman himself. Gijsbrecht, lord of Muiden, equally was a ministerialis in the employ of the bishop of Utrecht.
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:20 PM   #783
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So you've got nothing and you switch to another cop-out. Regarding your earlier quote:

you do realize that the "Flemish landscape" in Brandenburg is so called because there were Flemish settlers there?

Freely associating on that, there's a town and landscape in East Prussia called "Prussian Holland" because it was settled by people from Holland (the historical county, not the misnomer for the country The Netherlands). That may (or may not) have been Gijsbrecht IV van Amstel, lord of Amstelland, and some of his followers, after he had participated in a plot against Floris V, count of Holland, who ended up being murdered by some of the plotters.

And that brings me back to an open end in an earlier discussion:

The serf in the above story was Egbert van Amstel, the great-great-grandfather of Gijsbrecht IV. He was a ministerialis, i.e., he was a serf (unfree) and at the same time a nobleman. All throughout the Holy Roman Empire, dukes, counts, bishops, etc., employed unfree ministeriales for positions at their courts as well as to rule in their name a part of their realm. A ministerialis was at the same time a serf, unfree, as well as a nobleman himself. Gijsbrecht, lord of Muiden, equally was a ministerialis in the employ of the bishop of Utrecht.
Happy Birthday!

Interesting to know about 'Prussian Holland'. However, the only Flemish/Dutch participation I could find of the crusaders was the exploits of Robert II. Bear in mind, the Finnish-Swedish Flemings had been there since the 1300/1400's. The first, Klas, is described in the Swedish nobility records as having been noble 'since time immemorial'. It's an untitled noble house so likely is to do with military honours.

I note Flemings - as in ethnicity/language - are historically Catholic.

Quote:
Robert II (c. 1065 – 5 October 1111) was Count of Flanders from 1093 to 1111. He became known as Robert of Jerusalem (Robertus Hierosolimitanus) or Robert the Crusader after his exploits in the First Crusade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert...nt_of_Flanders

I should think being a serf and a noble at the same time would be vanishingly rare. More likely the people in between the nobles and the serfs would be what Karl Marx describes as the bourgeoisie, artisans and specialist craftsmen (cobblers, blacksmiths, cabinetmakers, etc) who couldn't be pushed around.
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Old 25th July 2018, 05:16 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Happy Birthday!
Thank you!

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Interesting to know about 'Prussian Holland'. However, the only Flemish/Dutch participation I could find of the crusaders was the exploits of Robert II.
I don't know what the "regular" Crusades have to do with this. Of course Robert did not go there alone, but had a bit of an army with him. Moreover, the Commander-in-Chief of the First Crusade, Godfrey of Bouillon, as well as his brother Baldwin of Boulogne, the first King of Jerusalem, were from a cadet line of the House of Flanders.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Bear in mind, the Finnish-Swedish Flemings had been there since the 1300/1400's. The first, Klas, is described in the Swedish nobility records as having been noble 'since time immemorial'. It's an untitled noble house so likely is to do with military honours.
In the 13th-15th Century, Flanders was by far the richest region north of the Alps. Bruges and Ghent were the biggest cities, save London and Paris, north of the Alps. Flemish traded everywhere. I'm not surprised at all to see Flemish turn up in Scotland, Sweden, the Baltics, everywhere.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I note Flemings - as in ethnicity/language - are historically Catholic.
Catholic is a language these days?

Of course, Flemish speak Dutch. As to their religion, when Calvinism arrived in the Low Countries, it first swept through Flanders, and the accompanying iconoclasm as well, before it arrived in Holland. It's due to the military efforts of Alexander Farnese and the subsequent Counter-reformation that Flanders reverted to Catholicism.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I should think being a serf and a noble at the same time would be vanishingly rare. More likely the people in between the nobles and the serfs would be what Karl Marx describes as the bourgeoisie, artisans and specialist craftsmen (cobblers, blacksmiths, cabinetmakers, etc) who couldn't be pushed around.
Did you even bother to read the link I gave to the wiki article on ministeriales? It quite clearly explains who they were, what functions they had and gives an impression how common they were.

ETA: and no, artisans is not what Karl Marx calls the bourgeoisie.
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Old 26th July 2018, 03:14 AM   #785
Vixen
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Thank you!


I don't know what the "regular" Crusades have to do with this. Of course Robert did not go there alone, but had a bit of an army with him. Moreover, the Commander-in-Chief of the First Crusade, Godfrey of Bouillon, as well as his brother Baldwin of Boulogne, the first King of Jerusalem, were from a cadet line of the House of Flanders.


In the 13th-15th Century, Flanders was by far the richest region north of the Alps. Bruges and Ghent were the biggest cities, save London and Paris, north of the Alps. Flemish traded everywhere. I'm not surprised at all to see Flemish turn up in Scotland, Sweden, the Baltics, everywhere.


Catholic is a language these days?

Of course, Flemish speak Dutch. As to their religion, when Calvinism arrived in the Low Countries, it first swept through Flanders, and the accompanying iconoclasm as well, before it arrived in Holland. It's due to the military efforts of Alexander Farnese and the subsequent Counter-reformation that Flanders reverted to Catholicism.


Did you even bother to read the link I gave to the wiki article on ministeriales? It quite clearly explains who they were, what functions they had and gives an impression how common they were.

ETA: and no, artisans is not what Karl Marx calls the bourgeoisie.
All terribly confusing. Who is to know, after all? I would guess it is all to do with tax evasion, which was the main basis of the Finnish (/Swedish) free man estates.

Quote:
The usual rule was that children of a mixed-status marriage would have the legal standing of the lesser of the parents. The child of a free knight and an unfree ministerial, therefore, was a ministerial. The liege of the mother would be the child's liege, for the child "followed the womb" (partus sequitor ventrem).[38]

Not everyone agrees with this interpretation, as some examples allow for free lords to challenge this ruling and maintain their status as free knights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerialis


My special interest in this is Charles IX of Sweden who was a Calvinist and deposed Sigmund of the Swedish throne, who was the rightful heir, but in the pockets of the Catholic Hapsburgs (Sigismund was also King of Poland). The nobles and clergy in Finland (which includes Claess Fleming) were pro-Catholic and pro-Sigismund, which resulted in quite a few of them being beheaded in the Linköping Bloodbath and the Turku-Åbo Bloodbath.

Fleming escaped beheading both times, but ended his days imprisoned in Gripsholm Castle.

The interesting part is the Cudgel War, which many historians now believe was deliberately stirred up by the evil Charles IX in which some 1,500 'peasants' talonpoika (=small Finnish tenant farmers) were slaughtered by Fleming and his men in trying to quell it.

It was these machinations that led to the overthrow of the then Finnish nobles, who lost all of their estates (Kurck, Fleming). Charles IX successfully ousted Sigismund and cruelly had Fleming's two sons beheaded in the Turku-Åbo Bloodbath, Nov 1599, thus ending the male Fleming lineage, one of whom was 19 and the other, born out of wedlock to NN Unknown could have been anything up to age 40-ish, with Fleming having been born in circa 1535.

So from Fleming being seen as the baddie, he could now actually be the goodie.

The upshot is, Sigismund having agreed in a treaty to let Charles IX take the throne (actually Charles III as the IX is based on a fictitious line), after a bloody battle, fled the country leaving his senators to face execution in the Linköping Bloodbath . All they did, as good employees loyal to the then King (Sigismund), was decline to call a government as demanded by Charles, who was a nobody ATT.

Well, they were all nobility, so had the honour of a public beheading. Other Sigismund loyalists faced horrible death by impalement. (Look it up, if you dare.)
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:27 AM   #786
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What has that quote to do with anything?

You earlier claimed that society consisted of two classes, nobles and unfree people. I challenged that view and said that noble/commoner and free/unfree are two different categories and that actually all four combinations exist, giving the ministerialis as an example of an unfree nobleman.

Do you agree with that and concede that you were wrong?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
My special interest in this is Charles IX of Sweden who was a Calvinist and deposed Sigmund of the Swedish throne, who was the rightful heir, but in the pockets of the Catholic Hapsburgs (Sigismund was also King of Poland). The nobles and clergy in Finland (which includes Claess Fleming) were pro-Catholic and pro-Sigismund, which resulted in quite a few of them being beheaded in the Linköping Bloodbath and the Turku-Åbo Bloodbath. <snip>
That is all totally irrelevant to the question where the name Fleming came from.

Do you concede that the default assumption should be that the name Fleming came from having Flemish ancestry?
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:09 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
What has that quote to do with anything?

You earlier claimed that society consisted of two classes, nobles and unfree people. I challenged that view and said that noble/commoner and free/unfree are two different categories and that actually all four combinations exist, giving the ministerialis as an example of an unfree nobleman.

Do you agree with that and concede that you were wrong?


That is all totally irrelevant to the question where the name Fleming came from.

Do you concede that the default assumption should be that the name Fleming came from having Flemish ancestry?
Unless you particularise what 'society' you are referring to I cannot agree or disagree. Fact is, in Sweden/Finland there were the noble and the non-noble. The nobles paid no land tax. The non-noble did.
Full stop. No serfs and no ministerialis.

If you are referring to Russia, that is a vast country compounded by several different ethnic groups, each with their own social structure.
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Old 8th August 2018, 11:01 AM   #788
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cleon, what are you full of? what's even the point? we were/are not anti-Stalinists. we were deported and humiliated. It was not like deciding if we liked Stalin or not. You are full of govno yourself ;P and some very smelly and ripe govno.
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Old 8th August 2018, 11:05 AM   #789
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cleon, you would have liked Stalin in a death camp far in Siberia (not far from Alaska)
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this forum has become a laugh. rational, skeptic, critical thinking has nothing to do with it, I am off to sciencebasedmedicine.org. a narrower, but neat forum.
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Old 9th August 2018, 05:05 AM   #790
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What posts are you replying to?
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