|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
3rd February 2017, 05:27 PM | #561 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,964
|
Good grief.
First of all, I'll point out that I don't listen to either of them. I don't really know first-hand what their views are other than some second-hand information that gets reported in articles about them. But first someone has to listen to them to even know that they shouldn't be listened to in the first place. And I am a skeptic, I do my own thinking, reach my own conclusions. I'm not going to take someone else's word for it because I prefer to think for myself. I should not be "pressured and harassed" for exercising my constitutional rights. Protesting is legitimate, "pressuring and harassing" is not, unless you also concede that they should have the right to "pressure and harass" you back. Do you concede that allies of Milo should be allowed to "pressure and harass" people? Do you concede that they should be allowed to "punch in the face" people they don't like? |
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
|
3rd February 2017, 05:34 PM | #562 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
|
Heh, I like your description of him. very accurate. And yes, I disagree that he's someone that requires protest and anger - although, again, college kids aren't known for being calm and measured.
Quote:
|
3rd February 2017, 05:38 PM | #563 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
|
There basically isn't one. Perhaps you were trying to refer to the difference between unlawful and criminal, but I didn't say criminal.
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
3rd February 2017, 05:58 PM | #564 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
|
Yes. Once it was revealed your original citation was 200 proof crap, your second citation -- a big step forward -- showed that university officials were concerned Milo was trying to have students deported. There is no evidence, however, that the concern was founded in fact.
Quote:
Quote:
Operating under your claim that undocumented attendees were at risk if they attended the event, if they were to be warned before they entered the venue, the risk would be mitigated. I know, it's hard to wrap one's mind around a tactic with this depth of complexity. |
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
|
|
3rd February 2017, 06:00 PM | #565 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,964
|
Maybe him and Alex Jones both realized how ridiculous it is and decided he didn't want to embarrass himself?
http://ibankcoin.com/zeropointnow/20...nternet-abuzz/ |
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
|
3rd February 2017, 06:01 PM | #566 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
If Milo was trying using his meetings to trap illegal aliens for deportation, it was one hell of a inefficient way to go about it.
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
3rd February 2017, 06:01 PM | #567 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,143
|
|
3rd February 2017, 06:03 PM | #568 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,143
|
|
3rd February 2017, 06:03 PM | #569 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
3rd February 2017, 06:05 PM | #570 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,697
|
Found a long video (1:33:08) on the CFI YouTube channel which is of a lecture by Dave Rubin, Christina Hoff Sommers, and Peter Boghossian at Portland University on Free Speech.
What is really interesting about it is the kind of videos that YouTube throws up as recommendeds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8kJ3SKiDj8 One of those videos was from the Portland University Student Newspaper, I clicked through to that video and found that the video linked above was not visible as a recommended, I find this kind of auto-censorship interesting. The Second video is below, look at their recommended list and compare with the first videos recommended list. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHFLgwoVR7o |
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!" 'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail Everybody gets it wrong sometimes... |
|
3rd February 2017, 06:09 PM | #571 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,386
|
It's one thing to accept that Fred Phelps can get on his soapbox on a street corner. It's quite another to expect no one to counter protest if the extracurricular Christian Club invites him to share his views on campus.
Free speech applies to counter protests as well. Some people are just out to see how vile they can get away with and when they don't get away with it, they complain about being shut down because ... unfair. |
3rd February 2017, 06:14 PM | #572 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
|
|
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
|
|
3rd February 2017, 06:14 PM | #573 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
|
Haw haw haw! I remember when "There's not a Dem/Liberal/Progressive around who could take Bill Buckley in a debate",.... just before Gore Vidal ripped him apart. How about "Oh, swift! O'Reilly is going to destroy anyone on the other side, he's Bill O'Reilly, man!"..... as Jon Stewart shredded him and his network in their staged debate.
You really think a guy with a mic and a prepared speech and no opposition is going to be a good debater? Milo is probably going to be doing E! Red Carpet Reports in three years. He's an attention whore. John Oliver, Colbert, Stewart? Hell, he couldn't even handle Joe Rogan. Even in a "friendly mic" show, he broke even in their tussle, at best. The big guns? They'd destroy him in a debate. I find it curious that you feel that a person of such aberrant thinking is "deep". I'd qualify him as "confusing/confused". |
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
|
3rd February 2017, 06:24 PM | #574 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,680
|
|
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping. |
|
3rd February 2017, 06:25 PM | #575 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,143
|
|
3rd February 2017, 06:33 PM | #576 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
|
|
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
|
|
3rd February 2017, 06:45 PM | #577 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
|
|
3rd February 2017, 07:00 PM | #578 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
|
Only if you accept the idea that a person can be illegal. I find that concept terrifying in the extreme. Behaviors are illegal. A person is violating the law by being unlawfully present, not for 'being' illegal. If we can craft laws declaring people illegal, we're in deep ****.
Quote:
Yeesh. |
3rd February 2017, 07:00 PM | #579 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
|
"He does this so often" 'cuz right wing (unintentional) clowns like Tucker don't get it. The only way the mainstream suck-ups can justify their own horrid excuse for journalism is to point out that a comedian on a comedy show on COMEDY CENTRAL wasn't tough enough in his questioning?
So, yeah... he's making a valid point that Counterpoint and numerous other shows are staging an entertainment extravaganza and not pursuing honest debate. They're looking for sound bytes and ratings, and their best defense is "I know you are but what am I?" O'Reilly did it, Hannity did it, Carlson did it. As Stewart noted.... the network is called COMEDY Central and his lead-in show was puppets making crank phone calls. Fox is the Fox NEWS Network. CNN is "NEWS". It would be like having Will Smith on and criticizing him because the Fresh Prince never really criticized black-on-black crime. |
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
|
3rd February 2017, 07:08 PM | #580 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,011
|
Don't think those are the only possible outcomes. Just my opinion but it would seem like there is middle ground from those outcomes and other more optimistic ones. As well as the possibility that inaction could cause civilian injuries or deaths.
I have been upfront that I am no expert in crowd dispersion/riot protocol but from your experience you have obviously seen different outcomes to different tactics used by police in these situations. Is non-intervention always the best method? And could a better planned police response before an event happens be a contributing factor? I seem to be on the side that inaction and bad planning can cause more issues, while you seem to be of the view that police action to intervene could cause more trouble than it would solve. I don't think either of us are necessarily right or wrong since it would depend on the situation, but hopefully places that these actions are common place at can take a second look to see if policies that are in place are as good as they can be. Don't think it something that requires federal funds being withheld to solve, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't question if there is anything that could be done better. |
3rd February 2017, 09:55 PM | #581 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Counter protests are awesome. I love counter protests. I bet Milo does too. The more speech, the better.
But we're not talking about counter protests, here. We're talking about a violent and destructive rampage. We're talking about the use of violence to suppress speech. That's the vile **** you're defending here. |
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
3rd February 2017, 10:16 PM | #582 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,680
|
|
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping. |
|
3rd February 2017, 10:16 PM | #583 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,422
|
You're trying to engage in a meaningless semantic squabble in order to ignore the real point. The only semantic objection I will accept is that technically I should say "illegal alien", since that is the statutorily defined term. But both "illegal immigrant" and "illegal alien" have a well-established meaning, you were not confused by my meaning, and your politically correct objection has no bearing on my argument. Either address my actual point, or find someone else to whine to, because I simply don't care.
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
3rd February 2017, 11:46 PM | #584 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
|
Well, I'm speaking to the scale we saw at UCB.
I would call that a destructive protest. We're in a time of constant hyperbolic language and people call anything that gets more contentious than a candlelight vigil a riot. I'm not endorsing destructive protest, but it is still a bit of a ways from a riot. Think of a scale of civil action escalation Meetings held publicly for discussion Presence at a place of significance to an issue Flash mob type public performance or spectacle, usually satirical ridicule March through neighborhoods to increase visibility Disruptive actions to gain the attention of an institution (hard bargaining) That last one is about where it gets grey for me. It has to be on the table or there's never going to be any bargaining with that powerful institution at all. It is a direct representation of how many people will put their bodies in the way of something that is past their limit of fundamentally wrong to them. How many people will take the time to get arrested, get processed, get a lawyer, pay the fine, and so on. It is essentially a form of combat without the body count. Especially in the case of business interests being hampered over a social issue, unless the business interest in question is run by people with an ideological stake. They'll be calling their purchased politicians and telling them to knock off their social engineering ASAP. The police departments are spending money like crazy watching these actions and arresting people (boots=money). Now the city council is mad. The court may get your fine, but they've got a judge, prosecutor, paralegal staff, and a correctional division, time is money yet again. This is how you push power around. Everything past this is beyond what I would consider justified (or effective). These acts go beyond decency or civility for someone's sense of moral affront to justify. Hostility and intimidation towards dissenters Property destruction and assault Looting and rioting Threats and acts of targeted destruction Assassinations Open revolt So there's an escalation gradient appropriate to those on the other side. You'd hardly want rubber bullets and tear gas for the women's march that took place. The police looked like they were expecting the hostility/intimidation level and it went a few notches higher than they anticipated into the destructive level. So they contain the issue and focus on preventing people from getting hurt. Meanwhile resources are mounting at the same time the ones committing destructive acts are exhausting themselves in their frenzy. Once the resources arrive, the crowd is more weary, easier to chase down, putting up less of a struggle. It basically comes down to who's burning more calories if you want to look at it that way. I won't deny they got caught flat-footed, but I don't they they were intentionally lax. It's the same thing we see with championship victories that go overboard. Most cops are decent people, they want people to be safe and alive, so they focus first on removing people not involved who might get hurt. People get tired, need to pee, get hungry, that moves body signals from amped to anxious, which means feet lead the body elsewhere. Police watch and study who the problem people are, start making moves when they are isolated, all the same stuff. |
4th February 2017, 03:44 AM | #585 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,143
|
|
4th February 2017, 03:53 AM | #586 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
4th February 2017, 03:57 AM | #587 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,143
|
|
4th February 2017, 04:35 AM | #588 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,143
|
|
4th February 2017, 06:05 AM | #589 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 11,828
|
Not to defend the dubious claim, but I think that Milo could "out" people who were not actually attending his speech. Even if John Smith were not in attendance, announcing on stage to (presumably) his peers that John Smith was an illegal alien would still be outing him. I don't see how warning people before they enter the venue would actually prevent Milo from outing anyone.
|
4th February 2017, 06:19 AM | #590 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 3,414
|
The students brought here as children have DACA permits, SS numbers, are legally entitled to work, and pay 1/3 what foreign students pay because they are considered legal residents of California (just not legal immigrants). According to Berkeley requirements, they should all have filed (or will soon file) for legal immigration status. There is an office on every campus to help specifically with these issue of protection and privacy. No one is coming to deport them!
However, there are people who feel the obligation to attack them, personally, saying they are taking seats away from citizens. These are ignorant asshats who cause them unwarranted anxiety and fear. It's a good reason not to be so public about their immigration status to avoid potential harassment. But asshats cannot deport anyone. The fear has been that Trump would rescind DACA (which was an executive order). But he indicated that these students should not suffer for their parents actions and has no plans to demote their status. He will probably replace Obamas order just to Trump him (ie. will give them green cards before graduating to improve employment opportunities, but with serious vetting for criminals and a faster track for good grades). That said, any undocumented student with criminal convictions may have real cause to worry. |
4th February 2017, 06:37 AM | #591 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
4th February 2017, 06:42 AM | #592 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 3,414
|
|
4th February 2017, 07:49 AM | #593 | |||
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,083
|
And on the other coast, someone at NYU is ... concerned about Gavin McInnes. And she's a professor. (edit to add - NSFW language warning)
"Nazi" has now officially joined "racist", "sexist", and "misogynist" on the list of words which used to actually mean something specific (and terrible), but now simply translate as "you're a bad man and I don't like you". Ironically, from what little I know of him, McInnes is someone who could legitimately be called a sexist or transphobic. But instead we go to the Nazi well yet again as le mot du jour. |
|||
4th February 2017, 07:55 AM | #594 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,837
|
|
4th February 2017, 07:58 AM | #595 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
4th February 2017, 08:17 AM | #596 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
|
Poor Dan, lacking a self-awareness gene, has taken flack for proposing that protesters be killed:
Originally Posted by Dan Adamimi
|
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
|
|
4th February 2017, 08:18 AM | #597 |
Troublesome Passenger
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 21,844
|
|
__________________
Like as the waves make towards the pebbled shore, So do our minutes hasten to their end . . . WS |
|
4th February 2017, 08:26 AM | #598 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
|
|
4th February 2017, 09:59 AM | #599 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
|
|
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|