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6th February 2017, 12:43 PM | #721 |
High Priest of Ed
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Because he's read the books written by anarchists from generations past, and that makes him an "expert" on what "true anarchism" is.
More to the point, it's like a religion. If someone were to apply the principles of anarchism in a way he doesn't agree with, they would be guilty of heresy at the very least. |
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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6th February 2017, 12:56 PM | #722 |
Philosopher
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Posts: 8,143
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I have no idea who this "Oakland crew" is and I've made no assertions about them.
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6th February 2017, 01:33 PM | #723 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
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Collectivism <-> Autonomy
is a different axis than Lib/Con or Left/Right. Can we move on from playing 'pin the tail on the donkey/elephant' now? |
6th February 2017, 01:40 PM | #724 |
Philosopher
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Posts: 8,143
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6th February 2017, 01:42 PM | #725 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain |
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6th February 2017, 01:59 PM | #726 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
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On the LGBT issue:
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Tends to tell you a lot about a person, really. This isn't new, this is the same 'mental illness' argument that has existed forever. At one time, it was orthodox 'science' to say so. It was wrong. Perpetuating these assertions in order to justify discriminatory treatment is indefensible. |
6th February 2017, 03:23 PM | #727 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 3,414
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Thought experiment:
Take all the healthy men out of this equation so you are left with women, children & teens, the physically and mentally disabled, and people over 75yo. Now, this group above argue exactly the same as people like Milo and Spencer. They write books, give speeches, denigrate marginalized groups, and promote a viewpoint you find absolutely abhorrent to human decency. The children and teens can probably be excused. Agree? Among the rest, how do you decide who to physically assault with full moral justification? THEY ALL WANT TO TAKE YOUR RIGHTS! You punch them, right? Ann Coulter? Punch that bitch in the mouth! Pat Robertson? That bastard obviously deserves a hard kick in the face. At 86yo, you might kill him, but that's ok - he totally asked for it by inciting so much hate!! Now, go call your mother and ask her what she thinks. You know, morally. |
6th February 2017, 05:30 PM | #728 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,990
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I'm sure those on the left willing to use violence to shut down speech they find disagreeable will understand when others return the favor.
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6th February 2017, 07:37 PM | #729 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,090
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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6th February 2017, 08:21 PM | #730 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Posts: 56,425
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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6th February 2017, 09:24 PM | #731 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
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*MostlyDead sniffs at the air, smelling a 'you wouldn't hit a poor, weak woman' argument coming*
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th February 2017, 09:36 PM | #732 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
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Posts: 41,468
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Except the version that you're supporting is more like:
First they came for the Nazis... But I didn't see any Nazis. Show me where he says "Hey, I'm a Nazi". So the Nazis got a pass due to free speech. Then they came for the Racists... But I din't see any Racists. Show me where he's in the Racist Registry. Sure it's unpleasant to hear him go on and on but I don't see where it's necessary to call the man names. So the racists got their pass. ........ Just stop it, please. This defense of the indefensible in the guise of being an uber skeptic is bordering on despicable. |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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6th February 2017, 10:11 PM | #733 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
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They are the subject of the thread. Specifically American anarchists employing a black bloc who have been continuously active in the Berkley and Oakland areas for decades.
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Fair point on self-identification as not being the determinant. |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th February 2017, 10:44 PM | #734 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,624
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I would absolutely testify, hell yes.
Again....... Seems that way. I saw nothing to dispute this in Delphic's post. Amazing that anyone here could think it's okay to use violence against those who share an opinion they do not agree with. I don't agree with that view at all, can I come over and smash your teeth in? I find these posters more offensive than anything Milo has been quoted saying here. ETA: I remember many months ago that a person was saying nasty things across the street from a school (I don't remember details, maybe immigration related?) and some of these same people cheered when someone smacked that person upside the head. |
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Why bother? |
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6th February 2017, 11:36 PM | #735 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Posts: 69,914
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The principle of rule of law is quite defensible. So is the principle that violence should not be used to suppress speech.
Why do you insist we not defend these things? These things should always be defended. "We're not imploding!" cries the left, as the fire of their liberal ideals is no longer sufficient to resist the pressure of their totalitarian ideology. |
6th February 2017, 11:42 PM | #736 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 8,143
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They must be fairly old by now then. Yet you can find no publications from them to back up your assertions? Curiously I seem to have no problem finding plenty of publications coming from anarchists in the Oakland area.
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It really just looks like you want to make some random slurs towards a particular group of anarchists which you make all sorts of unsupported claims about. Given your lack of evidence I'll simply ignore it. |
7th February 2017, 12:23 AM | #737 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
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That's not the tacit uber skeptic defense. The implication, lost in all the navel gazing, is "Can't Prove It. So he's not a racist, fascist, whatever...." Anyone who can read knows what these people are.
Defend the position as a pacifist or as a supporter of the rule of law. Do NOT defend racists and neo-fascists by claiming that we need documentary evidence when their every second line is obvious evidence of their political sentiments. |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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7th February 2017, 03:05 AM | #739 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
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I'm done spoon feeding you. You can either read the article (it's not that long) or not, your choice.
That Milo spews vile bigotry. You know, the thing that you asked for a citation for? I'm blessed by not caring what you think is stupid. Doesn't matter what you retro-actively claim. Fact is, you made a comparison between the plight of a Nazi being punched on TV with that of Jews being persecuted by Nazis during WWII. All you had to do was to say "alright, that wasn't the best comparison, and I withdraw it", but you are so hell bent on never being wrong on the internet that you instead dug your heals in. Pathetic. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 03:07 AM | #740 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 03:09 AM | #741 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 03:11 AM | #742 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Posts: 14,423
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 03:13 AM | #743 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 03:49 AM | #744 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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I'm not defending anyone or anything. I am countering a baseless accusation and speaking out in favour of free speech.
The only reason why you think I'm defending him is because you are not looking at this issue rationally. Milo offends you, and that is the only justification you need. The mere fact that I'm arguing against _you_ is enough for you to try to shame me into submission. Don't you have actual arguments to make? "Indefensible" is not a demonstration of anything. It's a value judgment, one that you now claim no one can disagree with. |
7th February 2017, 03:53 AM | #745 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
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Translation: "I don't have one, but I'll keep pretending that it's your fault."
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7th February 2017, 03:54 AM | #746 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
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Well, I would agree with you that I would not fault someone for feeling angry enough to want to punch one of these people- no matter their age, gender, etc... I think we all can understand the motivation behind it.
But it's the action of a short-sighted idiot. Someone who hasn't quite thought it through, yes? One sucker punch to Spencer gave him publicity he never dreamed of. Applaud him or hate him, his visibility, reach, and bank account have grown from this. Breaking his jaw would extend his coverage for weeks. Milo's book, not even released yet, went from 642nd to #1 after the Berkeley protest and has stayed there since. He writes for Breitbart. I imagine their site traffic did very well. Cha-ching! Ann Coulter isn't about to leave herself open to physical attacks, but I have to think she is more than a bit jealous. Can someone throw some foreign feces on poor Ann to make her happy? She has some truly awful books to sell. |
7th February 2017, 03:54 AM | #747 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 04:03 AM | #748 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 32,635
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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7th February 2017, 04:16 AM | #749 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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It's my fault that you haven't provided the evidence requested? Zig's already called you on the absence of what you claimed was there.
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I'm really sorry that this "skeptic" thing has become inconvenient to you. |
7th February 2017, 04:20 AM | #750 |
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
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In case you haven't noticed (that's facetious - you haven't noticed) you are not arguing with me. I have seven posts in this thread. You are closing in on 60.
Milo doesn't offend me. I know many Milos. The fact that you choose to insist on a level of evidence that is simply not available seems to escape you. You can defend his right to free speech all you like. To those of us who can read (with one exception), though, you're defending the right of a despicable person. I join you in that defense; I just don't call a dog turd a begonia! |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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7th February 2017, 04:35 AM | #751 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
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It's your fault that you won't read the evidence provided. I can't see Ziggurat's posts, so there's no use for you to refer to him.
Maybe you should have rejected the objectivity of the word 'vile' then, instead of asking for a cite? You certainly seem emotionally invested in never being wrong on the internet. It's not inconvenient. You're just misapplying skepticism. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 04:40 AM | #752 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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I'm not sure why you think that's relevant to what I said. Of course I'm arguing with you since you addressed me and I responded. What a strange thing to say.
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7th February 2017, 04:43 AM | #753 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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You didn't provide evidence. You posted a whole article and expect me to search for your evidence in there myself. No, it's your claim, so you do it.
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7th February 2017, 04:47 AM | #754 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
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Well, sod it then. As I said, I'm done spoon feeding you. As evidenced by your behavior in this thread, you will simply casually dismiss anything I put forth, so there's no use.
Skeptic indeed. It's not an insult. It's what I gather from your posts. Interesting, however, that you can call me emotionally invested and it not being an insult, but what's good for the goose apparently isn't good for the gander. No, applying your version of skepticism leads you to reject anything that doesn't meet a subjective, and apparently ever-changing burden of evidence. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 04:51 AM | #755 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
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I think I actually agree with the entire list. It's weird that Milo is considered a despicable person. I realize he riles people up, but he's really quite an amazing person. Fabulous even. I'm not saying I wish there were more Milo's. There's definitely diminishing returns to having more. But I'm grateful that there is at least one.
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7th February 2017, 05:41 AM | #756 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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I only dismiss the lack of evidence. Soon as you post anything substantial, I'll consider it.
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I realise you're desperately trying to avoid actually discussing the topic now.
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7th February 2017, 05:47 AM | #757 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
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No, you won't.
And I realized that you were emotionally invested when you made a despicable comparison between punching Nazis and Nazis persecuting Jews, and were flustered when I pointed it out, desperately resorting to retro-fit your comparison. No you haven't. No, I don't think that. I think that when you get to call me emotionally invested without me whining about it, I get to do the same to you, with equally much evidence supporting me. Maybe it was simply a question of an unreasonably high burden to begin with then, but then again, you won't even look at the evidence presented. And you can't admit to casually dismissing evidence due to being emotionally invested in always being right on the internet. ALL of this petty bickering just because you don't want to admit that Milo Yiannapolous spews bigotry and hatred. I mean, what a thing to hang your coat on. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 05:56 AM | #758 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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Yes I will. Stop making this about me and either support your claim or admit that you can't.
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There's nothing "emotional" in pointing out the similarities between two justifications for violence. Analogies are based on the things that are similar between the two things being compared, not the things that aren't.
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There.
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Nope, nothing emotional about your position at all. |
7th February 2017, 06:06 AM | #759 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
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Start reading the evidence provided, or admit you won't.
And you are doing exactly the same thing. The comparison you made is vile. There is nothing comparable between the plight of Nazis today and the plight of Jews under Nazism during WWII. That you would think there is is mindboggling. I'd say the same to you. You're clearly emotionally invested. What you are is willfully ignorant. You have been provided with sources, but you won't read them, because doing so might force you to reexamine your pre-conceived conclusion that I am wrong. You feel a need to argue about this because you disagree with me that punching Nazis is a good thing, and that's fine. What's not fine is you digging in your heels this deep in defense (and your argumentation has become a defense) of a vile bigot. There's no need for that. You can admit that Milo is a bigot and still not agree with punching him. You can argue that he has a right to say what he does without fearing violence, and I am free to disagree with that. That's were this discussion could have ended, but you just had to be right about everything, and it was so important to you that I had to realize that I was wrong. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 06:10 AM | #760 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
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More high school-level reversals.
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