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7th February 2017, 06:15 AM | #761 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, it's a legitimate challenge. You have been provided with evidence. You have replied that you won't read it, and then kept asking for evidence. That's arguing in bad faith.
Doesn't feel too good when the punches you throw can so easily be turned back on you, does it? You confuse the issue, because you are too emotionally invested. You can admit Milo is a bigot while still not agreeing with punching him. If you considered this without emotion you would realize that. No, because you lied about not being emotionally invested. No, you're willfully ignorant because you refuse to read the evidence provided, and you apparently lack even the basic knowledge about the person this discussion is centered upon. Instead of reading up on him so you know what the hell you're talking about, you expect to be spoon fed. I can't see Ziggurat's posts, and I'd expect you to show enough respect not to quote him for me. There was another paragraph to my post. Wanna comment on that? |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 06:25 AM | #762 |
Fiend God
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It feels pretty terrible, but mainly because your "punches" are pathetic. I'm not the topic of the thread. Either make your case or don't. So far you've failed to address the fact that Spencer isn't even mentioned in the link you provided as a response to my challenge to prove your claim that Milo's associated with him.
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7th February 2017, 06:25 AM | #763 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th February 2017, 06:26 AM | #764 |
Penultimate Amazing
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7th February 2017, 06:29 AM | #765 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Nor am I, but you throw punches anyway.
I apologize, I got my articles and names mixed up. It should have been Jack Donovan. You can read about it here. I'm truly sorry. I'm asking you not to quote it to me, like you did before. It's very disrespectful. I'm trying to use a forum feature to ignore him. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 06:29 AM | #766 |
Fiend God
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7th February 2017, 06:30 AM | #767 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 06:30 AM | #768 |
Fiend God
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7th February 2017, 06:32 AM | #769 |
Fiend God
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7th February 2017, 06:32 AM | #770 |
Penultimate Amazing
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 06:33 AM | #771 |
Penultimate Amazing
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 06:33 AM | #772 |
Fiend God
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7th February 2017, 06:37 AM | #773 |
Fiend God
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Yes, though I note that there's essentially a single mention of this Donovan guy, with whom I'm not familiar, and not much in the way of showing Milo's association with him. However, there's no denying that Milo's strongly associated with the Alt-Right.
A good long way from Nazis, mind you. Racists, sure. |
7th February 2017, 06:49 AM | #774 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Remember, we're not discussing "these people". We're discussing a specific person. The contention* is, Milo is a nazi, hence it's righteous to deny him free speech rights, and/or assault him.
Do you think it's fair to characterize him as a nazi? If yes, is it so crystal clear that it defies skeptical inquiry? This isn't a casual observation. His right to speech and his right not to be assaulted hinges on this categorization. (According to some.) Not everyone who has despicable views is a nazi. * Or maybe the contention is, everyone who has despicable views is subject to vigilante justice / speech denial. That seems to be where uke2se was taking things. |
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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7th February 2017, 06:53 AM | #775 |
Fiend God
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7th February 2017, 07:01 AM | #776 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:02 AM | #777 |
Penultimate Amazing
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:06 AM | #778 |
Penultimate Amazing
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As long as we can all agree that Milo has despicable views, I'll concede that I can't provide evidence that he's a Nazi. I can, and have, provided evidence that he associates with at least one white nationalist.
I realize the use of violence is a tough sell for US liberals, but this is where the Right is actually correct: there comes a time when violence is not only justified, but necessary. I'm not going to argue that it was necessary to punch Richard Spencer in the face, or that it is necessary to do the same to Milo Yiannapolous, but I will argue that in the current climate, violence is morally justified against purveyors of hateful and bigoted speech with a major platform. ETA: Violence in this case would be humilitating violence such as sucker punching, shoe thrown at head, bucket of vile liquid poured over head, or cake to the face. That kind of thing. When the climate gets worse, the violence does as well. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:07 AM | #779 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:09 AM | #780 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Here are some of the justifications you've posted:
So far, he's punchable due to being a nazi. But then your criteria expands... This is the goalpost movement I refer to. |
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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7th February 2017, 07:10 AM | #781 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th February 2017, 07:11 AM | #782 |
Penultimate Amazing
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:14 AM | #783 |
Fiend God
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7th February 2017, 07:14 AM | #784 |
Penultimate Amazing
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7th February 2017, 07:15 AM | #785 |
Penultimate Amazing
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__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:20 AM | #786 |
Fiend God
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He has plenty of views I strongly disagree with. He's a Christian, for one, which is odd considering what the bibble has to say about homosexuals.
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The only way that you can have, in my view, an organised application of violence against undesirables and make it "work" is in a non-democratic system. But you may be right that, at some point, violence may be the only way to preserve democracy. However, doing that also carries a tremendous risk of toppling that system. |
7th February 2017, 07:21 AM | #787 |
Fiend God
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7th February 2017, 07:21 AM | #788 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I agree with you that violence is problematic in a democracy. I would argue, however, that violence can be vital to save a democracy, or to reinstate a democracy. If you believe that the US is moving away from democracy - as I do - and towards autoritarianism, violence becomes a rational response in defense of democracy.
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:23 AM | #789 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:27 AM | #790 |
Fiend God
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Perhaps. How many violent uprisings have resulted in a democracy, however?
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7th February 2017, 07:28 AM | #791 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:34 AM | #792 |
Fiend God
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I didn't say it couldn't happen. What I'm suggesting is that it's so rare that hoping that it'll happen again this time is wishful thinking.
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7th February 2017, 07:57 AM | #793 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I'd say it has been US policy for quite a long time to support democratic uprisings in order to spread democracy. I don't think it's wishful thinking at all.
What would you suggest in order to resist a drift towards authoritarianism if you rule out violent resistance? I honestly have no problem with that. There are a lot of people due for a good punching. Nor does the former, as I explained. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 07:58 AM | #794 |
Penultimate Amazing
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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7th February 2017, 07:59 AM | #795 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I believe in free speech, as defined in the first amendment. I'm not talking about robbing Milo or anyone else of his free speech. In fact, I am unable to do so. The first amendment speaks specifically about government suppression of free speech.
Nobody has a right to do or say as they please and not expect people to react and respond. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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7th February 2017, 08:05 AM | #796 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The concept of free speech is broader than the 1st amendment. If you're punching people in response to speech, you're absolutely trying to suppress it, and you don't believe in free speech.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th February 2017, 08:05 AM | #797 |
Philosopher
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He's Catholic.
Come to think of it, all religious gay people I know are Catholic. Is it because all things Catholic look like they've been designed by Liberace? One guy I know uses the catchphrase 'that looks as gay as a Cathedral'. Don't know if he came up with that himself or if it is a meme in the gay community. |
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Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh! |
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7th February 2017, 08:15 AM | #798 |
Penultimate Amazing
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What does the bibble say about homosexuals?
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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7th February 2017, 08:31 AM | #799 |
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This is one of the saddest threads I've come across here. It is morally acceptable to punch people if they say things the puncher interprets as anti-democratic... Therefore, it would have been morally acceptable for people to, if they could reach him, punch Obama because his views were perceived as Socialist. The only criteria seems to be, "I think what he/she is saying is anti-democracy!"
What is solved by punching the person saying things you don't like? You certainly aren't winning the argument by punching someone. In the end, you are doing it because it just makes you feel good. "He got what he deserved!" That doesn't sound like any kind of "morally acceptable," I've ever heard of. And on a skeptic's forum . . . SMH |
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7th February 2017, 08:34 AM | #800 |
Fiend God
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And again, how often does that actually work? The autocracy-to-democracy regimes I can think of were done with outside occupation (Japan, Germany).
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Do you think punching people somehow turns them to your side, or convinces them of the error of their ways, or makes them less likely to use violence in turn?
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