ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Canada elections , Canada politics , Elizabeth May , justin trudeau , Thomas Mulcair

Reply
Old 20th February 2019, 08:52 AM   #481
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
It's not that much different from the Pacific Railway Scandal .

And it will likely have the same long-term effect - the affected political party looses the next election, and then comes back at a later date.
I wouldn't necessarily count the Liberals out just yet.

After all, Quebec tends to support the party with a Quebecer as the PM candidate, which means the Liberals will probably hold on to a lot of seats in Quebec (which would take them half way to a majority right there.) They may lose seats in Ontario and the West, but I don't see the conservative candidate gaining a lot from his personal popularity.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th February 2019, 11:31 AM   #482
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,163
I'm having a hard time getting worked up over this scandal. A Liberal government trying to help out a large Quebec-based firm? Is it Wednesday again? You don't even need to bribe the Liberals to get that done.

And what the company did (paid bribes in Libya) is something I've often felt should not be a crime. Places like that, bribes are just how business is done. We don't have to like it, but it's the reality on the ground, and making it a crime in Canada to play the game the way the locals play it in a different country seems slightly odd to me.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2019, 08:23 AM   #483
Civet
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,651
Well Wilson-Raybould has spoken and it looks pretty bad. I don't think this one is fading away any time soon.
Civet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2019, 08:53 AM   #484
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,176
Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Well Wilson-Raybould has spoken and it looks pretty bad. I don't think this one is fading away any time soon.
Trudeau has put his foot in it up to the knee by allowing her to speak.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2019, 09:25 AM   #485
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Quote:
Well Wilson-Raybould has spoken and it looks pretty bad. I don't think this one is fading away any time soon.
Trudeau has put his foot in it up to the knee by allowing her to speak.
I guess its like Chretien and Adscam... either he tries to suppress everything (and gets damaged politically because of it) or he tries to give the appearance of an open government (and still gets damaged).
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th February 2019, 09:28 AM   #486
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,176
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I guess its like Chretien and Adscam... either he tries to suppress everything (and gets damaged politically because of it) or he tries to give the appearance of an open government (and still gets damaged).
True. My personal opinion is that the political damage would be less, and would blow over more quickly, if she had not spoken out. But I am glad she did.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 08:40 PM   #487
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Another one bites the dust...

From: https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/jane...ctor-1.4321813
Jane Philpott has resigned from her role as Treasury Board President in Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s federal cabinet, saying that she has lost confidence in the way the government is handling the ongoing SNC-Lavalin scandal.

I have to admit, I'm really surprised at just how far this particular scandal has spread. Even Chretien didn't seem to have these problems, and his government had to deal with things like adscam and the hrdc scandal.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2019, 07:46 AM   #488
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Things are looking even worse for Trudeau:

From: https://globalnews.ca/news/5103763/t...avalin-budget/
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau appears to have suffered more damage from the SNC-Lavalin scandal than U.S. President Donald Trump has from the Russia investigation, hush money payments...according to a new Ipsos poll, conducted exclusively for Global News, which found that Trudeau’s approval rating (40 per cent) has now slipped below Trump’s (43 per cent)
...
If an election were held tomorrow, the Conservatives would receive 40 per cent of the vote...The Liberals would receive 30 per cent of the vote — down one point — while the NDP would receive 21 per cent and the Bloc Quebecois five per cent.


I am actually very surprised at how quickly the Trudeau government has imploded, and over something like SNC-Lavalin. (Granted, the actual election is still months away, so they do have time to recover.)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2019, 04:13 AM   #489
Civet
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,651
And now there's a recording. This just keeps getting worse. Costing Trudeau a lot of the good will he's buying with the new budget.
Civet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2019, 11:51 AM   #490
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,775
Looks like another Canadian woman ripped a page off the Lindsay Shephard playbook and exposed more corruption in Canada.

Canadian ex-attorney general releases secret tape recording

https://www.foxnews.com/world/canadi...tape-recording

I wouldn't be surprised if someone bitch slapped that little potato Trudeau in the head.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2019, 02:32 PM   #491
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,163
So, how 'bout that carbon tax? Anyone seen any collapses of civilization where they are yet? Where I live, gas shot all the way up to about where it was a month ago.

ETA: You can find charts here:

https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

Last edited by Horatius; 1st April 2019 at 02:34 PM.
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st April 2019, 10:20 PM   #492
AnonyMoose
Muse
 
AnonyMoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Land of the Frozen Chosen
Posts: 532
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So, how 'bout that carbon tax? Anyone seen any collapses of civilization where they are yet? Where I live, gas shot all the way up to about where it was a month ago.

ETA: You can find charts here:

https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts

Gas went up a full 5 cents per litre where I am. We fueled up all our vehicles plus a few 10 litre gas cans (for the lawnmower, snowblower, etc) yesterday, before the price hike hit today.

I'm trying to recall any other time when gas prices shot up that much in one day... maybe the late 70's early 80's?
__________________
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips
AnonyMoose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd April 2019, 04:59 AM   #493
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,163
Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
I'm trying to recall any other time when gas prices shot up that much in one day... maybe the late 70's early 80's?


Around here 5 cents/liter is a pretty typical variation for week-to-week or month-to-month. If I hadn't known about the carbon tax before looking at the prices Monday, they wouldn't have stood out as unusual, and are still much lower than they were a few years ago when oil prices were skyrocketing.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd April 2019, 09:55 AM   #494
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So, how 'bout that carbon tax? Anyone seen any collapses of civilization where they are yet? Where I live, gas shot all the way up to about where it was a month ago.
Yes, gas prices can often vary by more than what the carbon tax causes. The thing about the carbon tax is that the increased prices will become the 'new normal'. A few other notes:

- The federal carbon price only affects 4 provinces. Other provinces (that either had their own carbon prices in place, or had plans to implement them) were not affected

- The current carbon tax was only just a start... it is scheduled to go up even further in the next few years. (Well, unless the Liberals lose the next election; who knows what the conservatives would do afterwards.)

- The carbon taxes will be offset (partially) by a tax credit you get when you fill out your federal income taxes

I am not opposed to the concept of a carbon tax. (I do recognize that global warming is an issue that needs to be addressed.) I do have concerns whether the federal government will be competent in implementing a carbon tax in a fair and logical manner (without it being a big tax grab). This was one of the reasons I opposed the last attempt by the Liberals to implement a carbon tax (the "green shift" program under chretien)... because I thought their plan was unfair in many ways. The current program is.... better.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd April 2019, 11:47 AM   #495
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,163
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
- The current carbon tax was only just a start... it is scheduled to go up even further in the next few years. (Well, unless the Liberals lose the next election; who knows what the conservatives would do afterwards.)


I'm willing to bet that, if they win, they won't make any substantial changes to it. It's a bit like when the GST was first introduced. Everybody up in arms about this huge tax grab, but despite campaigning on repealing the GST, all the Liberals did once they took office was slap a new paint job on it.

Leaving it in place lets the conservatives gain all the pluses of the carbon tax, without having to take the political hit of trying to sell their supporters on it themselves. They can just delay the removal for a year or two ("we don't want to disrupt business plans that have already been disrupted once by this Liberal Tax Grab!"), then pull a Trumpian, "No one knew the environment could be so complicated!" stunt to excuse their failure to ever repeal it. By the next election, everyone will be used to it, the sky won't have fallen on the economy, and the issue quietly slips into the background.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd April 2019, 12:48 PM   #496
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,163
Here's an amusing takedown of all the "carbon tax" panicking the Conservatives were doing Sunday, and a run-down of how some prices moved:

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/canad...2-51f7c66882f6


Some went up, some went down, and some went up WAY more than can be accounted for by the tax, because that's just how gas stations like to screw with us.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd April 2019, 12:50 PM   #497
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Quote:
- The current carbon tax was only just a start... it is scheduled to go up even further in the next few years. (Well, unless the Liberals lose the next election; who knows what the conservatives would do afterwards.)
I'm willing to bet that, if they win, they won't make any substantial changes to it. It's a bit like when the GST was first introduced. Everybody up in arms about this huge tax grab, but despite campaigning on repealing the GST, all the Liberals did once they took office was slap a new paint job on it.
Its certainly possible, but there are different political dynamics in play.

The conservatives are supposedly the "pro-business/cut taxes" party, the Liberals the "tax and spend" party. When the conservatives brought in the GST, it was doing something that (in theory) was in the Liberal's domain. (i.e. Chretien didn't have to do anything that was against Liberal party ideals.)

Now that the situations are reversed and it was the Liberals who brought in the carbon tax, for the conservatives to accept it would supposedly go against their laissez faire economic philosophy.

I guess it depends on how dogmatic the conservatives are.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd April 2019, 03:31 PM   #498
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,163
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Now that the situations are reversed and it was the Liberals who brought in the carbon tax, for the conservatives to accept it would supposedly go against their laissez faire economic philosophy.

I guess it depends on how dogmatic the conservatives are.


They way I see it, the leadership of the Conservatives have to be smart enough to know that their global warming denial routine is just that - a routine. The base might really buy into it, but not the leadership (not most of them, anyways, who the **** knows what Doug ******* Ford actually knows?).

So they know they need to do something about climate change, and by letting this plan continue - with a new paint job, natch* - they get the Liberals to do the dirty work for them. They all know any Conservative candidate who actually comes out in favor of any kind of carbon pricing scheme is going to be drummed out of the party, but this way, they avoid that for five more years.



*They'll probably drop the price 10% or so, and throw in some kind of extra rebate for farmers, and then crow about how they care about Regular Canadians(tm) soooo much more than the Libtards.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2019, 09:17 AM   #499
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
They way I see it, the leadership of the Conservatives have to be smart enough to know that their global warming denial routine is just that - a routine.
I HOPE you're right.

Although keep in mind that its possible for someone to both accept that Global Warming is a real issue that needs to be addressed, and to be against carbon taxes because of a belief that other solutions would be preferable. (Maybe they think that direct investment in Nuclear Power plants, or increased research into alternative fuels might be the better way to go.)
Quote:
The base might really buy into it, but not the leadership (not most of them, anyways, who the **** knows what Doug ******* Ford actually knows?).
Well, Ford dismantaled Ontario's Cap-and-trade scheme, so even if he secretly thinks Global warming needs to be addressed, he's certainly going all out to avoid implementing any solutions.

https://news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2018/...n-ontario.html
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2019, 10:51 AM   #500
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,163
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, Ford dismantaled Ontario's Cap-and-trade scheme, so even if he secretly thinks Global warming needs to be addressed, he's certainly going all out to avoid implementing any solutions.

https://news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2018/...n-ontario.html


Yeah, but how much of that is because he really believes his ********, and how much of it is his Trump-lite imitation of just canning everything his predecessors did, out of personal spite? Remember, he also went out of his way to screw up the roll-out of legal marijuana, too, just to spite the Liberals.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th April 2019, 11:52 AM   #501
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Looks like another Canadian woman ripped a page off the Lindsay Shephard playbook and exposed more corruption in Canada.

Canadian ex-attorney general releases secret tape recording

https://www.foxnews.com/world/canadi...tape-recording

I wouldn't be surprised if someone bitch slapped that little potato Trudeau in the head.
Looks like that both Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott have both been kicked out of the Liberal caucus.

From: https://vancouversun.com/news/politi...liberal-caucus
Vancouver MP Jody Wilson-Raybould and Toronto area MP Jane Philpott have both been kicked out of the Liberal caucus, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Tuesday... “The trust that previously existed between these two individuals and our team has been broken,” Trudeau told caucus members. “It’s become clear that Ms. Wilson-Raybould and Dr. Philpott can no longer be part of our Liberal team.”

There is a chance that the NDP may try to get Wilson-Raybould to join their party (although in the past they haven't really been welcoming of 'floor crossers'.)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 07:06 AM   #502
Gingervytes
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 286
We live in a Marxist society
Gingervytes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 07:19 AM   #503
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
We live in a Marxist society
By what measure?

I'm opposed to many of the policies of the Liberal government, but I certainly wouldn't label them as 'marxist'. I wouldn't even call the NDP a 'marxist' party. Its a label that seems like empty rhetoric.

Its like the people who claim that the Harper government was 'fascist'.... no, it wasn't, and labeling it as such says more about the accuser than anything else.. Canada's mainstream political parties are nowhere near the extremes that some people like to think.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th April 2019, 07:41 AM   #504
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,163
Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
We live in a Marxist society

It's amusing how you say that the day after one of the farthest-right parties in the country just won a landslide victory in Alberta.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 06:44 AM   #505
lomiller
Philosopher
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,804
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

Although keep in mind that its possible for someone to both accept that Global Warming is a real issue that needs to be addressed, and to be against carbon taxes because of a belief that other solutions would be preferable. (Maybe they think that direct investment in Nuclear Power plants, or increased research into alternative fuels might be the better way to go.)
So instead of taxing the commodity that is causing the problem you tax peoples income and use that to try and subsidize some other technology that has questionable cost/value?

CO2 emissions represent an externality, a cost that isn’t paid by either the producer or the person consuming the product. This distorts the market and changes the usage pattern of the product. Creating a second market distortion doesn’t fix the problem, what you need to do is have people pay a price that more accurately represents the real cost of the product so they can adjust their buying decisions.

Trying to just replace fossil fuels with some other energy source probably is not going to work because the system in place was designed around a different energy source so you will be plugging a square prong into a round hole. The free market is fully capable of making all the required changes so long as people are working with the real prices of the products they use.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:42 AM   #506
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Quote:
Although keep in mind that its possible for someone to both accept that Global Warming is a real issue that needs to be addressed, and to be against carbon taxes because of a belief that other solutions would be preferable. (Maybe they think that direct investment in Nuclear Power plants, or increased research into alternative fuels might be the better way to go.)
So instead of taxing the commodity that is causing the problem you tax peoples income and use that to try and subsidize some other technology that has questionable cost/value?
A carbon tax may be a good concept, but in my opinion it has to be done right. And relying only on carbon taxes can be problematic:

- If the carbon tax is just a 'tax grab' (i.e. no offsetting reduction of taxes elsewhere) then it can harm economic growth

- Many of the alternatives require significant capital costs, and the switch to the alternative might be faster with subsidies than if they simply imposed carbon taxes and waited for alternatives to get hold

- Even if the carbon tax makes the cost of energy reflective of its true cost, some people may still be willing to pay that extra cost.

- Its raises issues about what should actually be taxed. Do you tax (for example) energy generated by hydroelectric dams, which even though are carbon neutral, are fungible with energy generated from coal and natural gas. Do you tax production or consumption?

I'm not necessarily against the concept of carbon taxes. But, back when Dion was running for office the Liberals tried to bring in the "Green Shift" plan, that involved carbon taxes. The problem with their plans: 1) it didn't include gasoline (which is one of the biggest discretionary forms of energy consumption), and 2) its benefits and costs were not spread evenly throughout the country. I do think that the current carbon tax is better than what the Liberals were proposing a decade ago.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2019, 07:49 AM   #507
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Not a federal thing, but provincial in nature.

Remember when Ford and the conservatives won the Ontario election? Things aren't going so well for them now.

From: https://www.mainstreetresearch.ca/fo...-their-leader/
The governing Progressive Conservatives have slid to third, Premier Doug Ford’s favourability ratings have now fallen below those of Kathleen Wynne’s at the end of her tenure...Those are the findings from Mainstreet Research’s latest Ontario survey....Premier Ford has a net favourability rating of -53.5%. By comparison, Wynne’s net favourability rating stood at -35.3% on April 30th, 2018.

Amazing how fast support for them collapsed. Not really sure why that is. They're only about a year into their mandate, the economy is still doing OK, and there haven't been any big scandals. The conservatives did cut funding to the cities, but that wouldn't have had time to filter down to the municipalities requiring service cuts yet. (I'm not saying everyone should love them, but people knew what to expect during the election.)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2019, 11:10 PM   #508
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,163
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Amazing how fast support for them collapsed. Not really sure why that is. They're only about a year into their mandate, the economy is still doing OK, and there haven't been any big scandals. The conservatives did cut funding to the cities, but that wouldn't have had time to filter down to the municipalities requiring service cuts yet. (I'm not saying everyone should love them, but people knew what to expect during the election.)


Well, there's your problem. I think they actually bought into his ******** about how "finding efficiencies" in the budget could cover not only billions in deficit financing, but billions more in tax cuts.

We're at the point where patently obvious ******** is apparently not obvious to a large segment of the population.

Now that it's clear that his plan all along was just to cut everything he hates out of the budget, even the stupid people are figuring it out.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th May 2019, 09:29 AM   #509
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,630
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Well, there's your problem. I think they actually bought into his ******** about how "finding efficiencies" in the budget could cover not only billions in deficit financing, but billions more in tax cuts.

We're at the point where patently obvious ******** is apparently not obvious to a large segment of the population.

Now that it's clear that his plan all along was just to cut everything he hates out of the budget, even the stupid people are figuring it out.
And even the more conservative voices are thinking, "Are you sure this is a good idea?"

Funding for autistic children, Children's Aid Societies, First Nations arts funding, French language education, etc. - essentially going for the vulnerable and the minorities and hoping that enough of who's left are going - at least my taxes are going down
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th May 2019, 10:05 PM   #510
Wayward son
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 527
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Amazing how fast support for them collapsed. Not really sure why that is.
In part because it was never high to begin with. People were fed up with an extremely corrupt Liberal government that had been in power for a long time. But that didn't mean that they supported massive cuts to services (while increasing government spending – where is the money going?), and he never campaigned on anything he is doing. His health and education platforms say nothing about cuts - in fact he campaigned by saying he wouldn't be doing so - and would instead be increasing funding for autism as an example.

Quote:
They're only about a year into their mandate, the economy is still doing OK, and there haven't been any big scandals. The conservatives did cut funding to the cities, but that wouldn't have had time to filter down to the municipalities requiring service cuts yet. (I'm not saying everyone should love them, but people knew what to expect during the election.)
I mean you could say that people should have known that Doug Ford was going to make massive cuts...even though he campaigned saying that he wouldn't. But that just means that you think that people should be cynical. I am pretty cynical myself, but I don’t think that people who are not should be blamed for believing people at their word.

However, many people have been in a panic for deficits to be eliminated and they want government debt to be paid down. But they want that done without tax increases, and preferably with tax reductions. The only way that is going to happen is with massive cuts to spending and even then that is simply never going to happen, and Ford is going to end up governing over massive deficits (Secondary school funding cuts of more than 20% over 4 years. Do you think that is actually going to happen? I don’t. Secondary school funding per pupil in Ontario is already among the lowest in the country. Going lower, let alone massively lower will simply create complete chaos. He will successfully manage to cause massive damage, but in the end the outcry is going to so bad that it won’t result in the savings he is planning on). Ontario already has the lowest corporate taxes among the provinces. Solution? Lower them more. Ontario already has the second lowest income taxes among the provinces until you hit about 80K (at which time Alberta becomes lower. BC is lower throughout). Solution? Lower them more. Capital gains taxes? Dividend taxes etc? All among the very lowest in the country.

It is a delusional collective mindset in which nothing productive can happen. It is similar to thinking that you can deal with climate change while lowering gas taxes. Emissions will continue to rise as we drive farther and farther to work in vehicles which have not improved their mileage in decades. Deficits will remain high (as we see with Trump and will see with Ford when he has to backtrack on much of his planned cuts – cuts that he and his ministers don’t even understand) because we refuse to deal the reality (too many people don’t want to pay for the services we use) and instead are leaving both problems to the next generation.

Last edited by Wayward son; 27th May 2019 at 10:11 PM.
Wayward son is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2019, 09:15 AM   #511
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Quote:
Amazing how fast support for them collapsed. Not really sure why that is. They're only about a year into their mandate, the economy is still doing OK, and there haven't been any big scandals. The conservatives did cut funding to the cities, but that wouldn't have had time to filter down to the municipalities requiring service cuts yet. (I'm not saying everyone should love them, but people knew what to expect during the election.)
Well, there's your problem. I think they actually bought into his ******** about how "finding efficiencies" in the budget could cover not only billions in deficit financing, but billions more in tax cuts.

We're at the point where patently obvious ******** is apparently not obvious to a large segment of the population.

Now that it's clear that his plan all along was just to cut everything he hates out of the budget, even the stupid people are figuring it out.
Yes, the conservatives are taking a chainsaw to the budget. And it may even be considered a lie that he "wasn't going to cut stuff".

But as I pointed out, the cuts really haven't had a chance to really impact anyone. And we have just finished a decade of liberal rule, which featured some pretty big scandals (Gas plants anyone?), deficits, and their own lies (McGuinty's "I won't raise taxes"). Seems like everyone has forgotten all that.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2019, 09:34 AM   #512
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
So, the Federal liberals are setting up a ~$600 million fund to help support struggling media companies and news organizations. As part of that, they are setting up some panels that will help decide which companies get the funding and which do not.
Part of the problem though is that one of the panels includes Unifor, a union that has taken strongly anti-conservative stances, even tweeting that they were "Andrew Scheer's worst nightmare".

Now, on one hand, I do recognize that having multiple strong news organizations is valuable for democracy, and cutbacks are a problem.

But, I really don't think that the government should be in a position of 'choosing' winners and losers. (After all, in theory you could see an unsubisidized newspaper or TV outlet seeing its tax money going to fund its competition.)

And I do think its extremely bad optics to have such an incredibly biased organization such as Unifor to be involved in any way in the committee (even if it won't be single-handedly working to make sure anti-conservative companies get funding.) Even some journalists are questioning its inclusion.

https://q107.com/news/5322402/additi...estion-period/
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2019, 06:17 AM   #513
Wayward son
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 527
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
But as I pointed out, the cuts really haven't had a chance to really impact anyone. And we have just finished a decade of liberal rule, which featured some pretty big scandals (Gas plants anyone?), deficits, and their own lies (McGuinty's "I won't raise taxes"). Seems like everyone has forgotten all that.
Amazing that people are more concerned about things like the harm to their own children's education and future than the "gas plant scandal" from many years ago.
Wayward son is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2019, 11:19 AM   #514
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,228
Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Quote:
But as I pointed out, the cuts really haven't had a chance to really impact anyone. And we have just finished a decade of liberal rule, which featured some pretty big scandals (Gas plants anyone?), deficits, and their own lies (McGuinty's "I won't raise taxes"). Seems like everyone has forgotten all that.
Amazing that people are more concerned about things like the harm to their own children's education and future than the "gas plant scandal" from many years ago.
Yet the Ontario liberals regularly cut health care (something else people probably think is important) for years under the Wynne government. Do people actually think "its ok if you die, as long as you're educated when you do"?

https://globalnews.ca/news/4120816/o...h-care-system/
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2019, 08:50 PM   #515
Wayward son
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 527
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Yet the Ontario liberals regularly cut health care (something else people probably think is important) for years under the Wynne government. Do people actually think "its ok if you die, as long as you're educated when you do"?

https://globalnews.ca/news/4120816/o...h-care-system/
An advocacy group saying that they are underfunded - during a time when health care funding was going up by 3% per year (including hospital funding, which yes is probably not adequate with inflation and an aging population but unavoidable when people pay the same amount of provincial taxes today if they make 80K as they would if they made 45K in 1985) - is not in any way shape or form the same thing as the government specifically legislating that they are cutting funding for high school by at least 20% per high school student (when funding per student was already the third lowest in the country, and would result in it being the lowest in the country by a massive margin and barely half of several other provinces).

If you think those are similar, and should evoke similar reactions, then you are pretty much on your own here.

Last edited by Wayward son; 29th May 2019 at 08:58 PM.
Wayward son is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2019, 08:13 PM   #516
Civet
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,651
So now the word genocide is being used in the wake of the MMIWG inquiry. Seems a bit much to me, but lots of Canadians seem to find it appropriate. What happens next? This could be turning into a bigger deal than I expected it to be.

Last edited by Civet; 16th June 2019 at 08:23 PM.
Civet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 05:08 AM   #517
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,630
Originally Posted by Civet View Post
So now the word genocide is being used in the wake of the MMIWG inquiry. Seems a bit much to me, but lots of Canadians seem to find it appropriate. What happens next? This could be turning into a bigger deal than I expected it to be.
The usual suspects are taking the use of the word "genocide" and running with it, claiming that right now the PM should be arrested and tried, because "its a crime, therefore someone has to be individually responsible for it."

They are ignoring the analysis that was done in the Supplementary Report to explain how the treatment of FN overall in Canadian history (and by that I mean up until today) amounts to genocide. Most of those ignoring it are also trying to further muddy the waters by arguing that it can't be genocide because Canada didn't carry out mass killings - which while strictly true, ignores the other elements of the crime that were done - the separation of children from their parents and placing them outside their cultural group, making best efforts to stamp out FN cultural practices, forced sterilizations, etc because facing that part of the history makes us uncomfortable and really makes it hard to think of yourself as "one of the good guys."

What should happen is a frank dialogue about what the actual policy of the Cdn government was for so many years, the negative effects it actually had on the First Nations and actually taking steps to address some of the issues without the usual snivelling.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:25 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.