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Tags Australia elections , Australia politics , Julie Bishop , Malcolm Turnbull , Peter Dutton , Scott Morrison

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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:07 AM   #1521
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Nah, ScoMo managed to make the LNP boring even before the election and boring is good for an incumbent government.

The only way that the LNP will go to the polls before its term expires is if Labor and the independents vote down a budget bill in the Senate. If they tried that then I suspect that the election would be a landslide for ScoMo.
Well, his initial agenda presentation to the new parliament today was profoundly boring, so he's off to a good start.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:11 PM   #1522
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It begins.

Scott Morrison pledges bipartisan approach on religious freedoms

Quote:
Prime minister says he doesn’t want ‘religion to be an issue that divides Australians’ but conservative MPs are pushing for tougher line

The prime minister, Scott Morrison, says he wants to work “carefully” with MPs and Labor to finalise the Coalition’s plans to protect religious freedoms, saying the “deeply personal” issue should not be politicised.

After calls from conservative MPs for the government to look at going further than its election pledge to introduce a religious discrimination bill, Morrison has invited MPs to attend workshops being held by the attorney general, Christian Porter, on the Coalition’s proposed response.

“I do not want religion to be an issue that divides Australians, it is deeply personal for people, I want to work through it in a way that enhances unity, not for political purposes,” Morrison told MPs, according to a government spokesman.

The prime minister also said he wanted to work with Labor on the best way to ensure religious freedoms are protected, after the opposition reported that some faith-based communities were concerned about the party’s position on issues such as abortion and euthanasia.

The legislation flagged by the government during the election would make it unlawful to discriminate against people on the ground of their religious belief or activity (including lack of religious belief), and would also establish a new role for a freedom of religion commissioner at the Australian Human Rights Commission.

A group of conservative MPs, including Concetta Fierravanti-Wells and Barnaby Joyce, have advocated for a new law to grant positive rights of religious expression, citing the case of Israel Folau as an example of why the law needs to be strengthened.

Porter has previously said the government’s proposal would be a “basic” bill that would “follow the basic architecture of discrimination bills” by defining religion as a protected attribute. On Tuesday he told MPs that the legislation was “deeply technical”, suggesting he may be prepared to go further.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:53 PM   #1523
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Ah, to have an openly agnostic PM...
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:00 AM   #1524
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Religious freedom should not include the right to refuse service nor should it include the right to bully groups.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:10 AM   #1525
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
So far this is just political gobbledygook. Wait until we see a bill.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:13 AM   #1526
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Religious freedom should not include the right to refuse service nor should it include the right to bully groups.
Right. It should not be legal to discriminate on religious grounds.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:19 AM   #1527
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First Dog nails it, as usual.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 04:35 PM   #1528
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Right. It should not be legal to discriminate on religious grounds.

Funny that I see this as a push by the religious to discriminate against others who don't believe as they do, or don't behave as they think right and proper. I wonder what the legislation will look like.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 04:46 PM   #1529
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The legislation will collapse entirely the first time a non-Christian religious group use it to promote their agenda in the same way the Pentacostals think they should be allowed to exclusively. Goose/gander. I'm thinking particularly Islam, but it could be Hindu as well. There will be such an outcry from them that the legislation will be dropped like a hot potato if it hasn't been passed, or repealed if it has.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:31 PM   #1530
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The legislation will collapse entirely the first time a non-Christian religious group use it to promote their agenda in the same way the Pentacostals think they should be allowed to exclusively. Goose/gander. I'm thinking particularly Islam, but it could be Hindu as well. There will be such an outcry from them that the legislation will be dropped like a hot potato if it hasn't been passed, or repealed if it has.
Could be Satanic Temple, or Pastafarianism, too.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/satan...b06ad4d25d4562
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Old 3rd July 2019, 06:44 PM   #1531
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Could be Satanic Temple, or Pastafarianism, too.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/satan...b06ad4d25d4562
Or atheists. They seem to view atheism as a "religion". Yes, we all know it isn't. But they hold that it is, against all possible logic and evidence.

Imagine if a religious person was dismissed from a position because they refused to acceded to atheist employment principles. Their proposed legislation would support the atheist employer, not them. The outcry from them would be huge...

It will collapse eventually.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:23 PM   #1532
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Or atheists. They seem to view atheism as a "religion". Yes, we all know it isn't. But they hold that it is, against all possible logic and evidence.

Imagine if a religious person was dismissed from a position because they refused to acceded to atheist employment principles. Their proposed legislation would support the atheist employer, not them. The outcry from them would be huge...

It will collapse eventually.
You should change your religion. Psychism isn't working for you.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:31 PM   #1533
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You should change your religion. Psychism isn't working for you.
Not "psychism", sarcasm.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:49 PM   #1534
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Or atheists. They seem to view atheism as a "religion".
You're right, and it really grinds my gears.

Something that is the lack of a doctrine magically becomes a doctrine.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:55 PM   #1535
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You're right, and it really grinds my gears.

Something that is the lack of a doctrine magically becomes a doctrine.
Then let's use it to advantage.

Atheists should, according the legislation that has been mooted, be able to enforce employment and other conditions according to the tenets of their "religion". And where an atheist says stuff that clearly "hurts the feelings" of Christians, in the same manner that Izzie Folau did with his childish outbursts, atheists can tell them they will have to suck it up because it is all allowed due to their vaunted "religious freedom" laws.

See how long that lasts.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:57 PM   #1536
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So what are you all going to do with your cash gift from SloMo this tax time? Being sold by the papers as some great retail stimulus but its two fifths of stuff all that will get swallowed up by bills and debt payments.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:04 PM   #1537
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
So what are you all going to do with your cash gift from SloMo this tax time? Being sold by the papers as some great retail stimulus but its two fifths of stuff all that will get swallowed up by bills and debt payments.
I might buy a musk-stick.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:27 PM   #1538
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You're right, and it really grinds my gears.

Something that is the lack of a doctrine magically becomes a doctrine.
I don't understand this. Free exercise of religion means freedom to not exercise a religion. That doesn't make atheism a religion.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:51 PM   #1539
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You're right, and it really grinds my gears.

Something that is the lack of a doctrine magically becomes a doctrine.
Hey, don't worry about it. We can use it.

Hi, can you bake a wedding cake for me and my fiancee?

You l aren't... Christians are you?

Uh... yes?

I'm sorry, my deeply held belief holds your lifestyle immoral and I can't in good conscience give my business to someone of that persuasion.

But... but... you're an atheist!

Oh, so now freedom of religion is only freedom of your religion?
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Old 4th July 2019, 12:45 AM   #1540
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't understand this. Free exercise of religion means freedom to not exercise a religion. That doesn't make atheism a religion.
I couldn't agree more.

Theists don't. They have a deep-seated need to call atheism a doctrine, and therefore religious.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm sorry, my deeply held belief holds your lifestyle immoral and I can't in good conscience give my business to someone of that persuasion.
Thereby cutting off a large portion of your business. It's not something a sensible business would do.

Leave it to politicians to make those points.
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Old 4th July 2019, 12:51 AM   #1541
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Thereby cutting off a large portion of your business. It's not something a sensible business would do.
And yet...
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Old 4th July 2019, 04:12 AM   #1542
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Tax bill passed

The Senate voted 56 to 9 to pass the government's tax bill. Labor was clearly snookered after failing to get support for its amendments and voted with the government. The irony wasn't lost on the Greens who were the only party to vote against it.
Quote:
Greens alone in voting against the tax package

Throughout the parliamentary debate, the Greens savaged the Coalition for what it dubbed irresponsible economic management.

"What a dark, dark day in Australian politics," Greens leader Richard Di Natale said.

"There is nothing responsible about ripping $90 billion from our budget and lining the pockets of the wealthiest Australians," Senator Di Natale said.

He then turned his attention to Labor, accusing the Opposition of failing to do its job.

"Show some courage, toughen up, be an Opposition, take the fight up to them," he said.

"There are so many Australians in this country who are crying out for leadership and you've caved, you've crumbled, you've given in at the first sign of pressure.

"People held high hopes for Anthony Albanese and if this is sign of where the modern Labor party are going, well, frankly, we are stuffed."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-...enate/11277002
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Old 4th July 2019, 06:29 AM   #1543
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Where is the far left Labor we were supposed to be getting with old mate Albo?
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Old 4th July 2019, 06:21 PM   #1544
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Today's Labor party could take a lesson from Kim Beazley. Boy, could that guy oppose. I'm sure that if Howard had said that the sky was blue, Beazley would have stood up in Parliament and tried to say that it was green.

ETA: Except the war. Don't mention the war.
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Old 4th July 2019, 06:27 PM   #1545
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't understand this. Free exercise of religion means freedom to not exercise a religion. That doesn't make atheism a religion.
You need to stop using logic. That makes no Evangelical sense.

According to evangelists, atheism is a religion in that you need to "believe there is no god". Their logic is based on the presupposition that god does truly exist as some sort of real-life entity. They see this belief in non-existence of something real as being the same as "believing there are no elephants". Thus atheism is definitely a "belief' in their view. The fault in their logic is obvious - God is imaginary, elephants are not. But that's not how they see it.

ETA: Pentacostals are evangelist thinking.
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Old 4th July 2019, 07:26 PM   #1546
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So now our favourite politician, Peter Dutton, elbows his way into the news and tries to establish his relevancy, after Sigley is released due to the efforts of the Swedes. Didn't see anything about Dutton being involved in obtaining the release.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-...eturn/11280908

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Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton has warned Alek Sigley against returning to North Korea following the student's release from detention.

Swedish officials helped facilitate the 29-year-old Perth student's release from North Korea more than a week after he had disappeared.
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Old 4th July 2019, 08:13 PM   #1547
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
According to evangelists, atheism is a religion in that you need to "believe there is no god".
Are you sure that this is a connection that is not of your making?

I know plenty of religious people who classify atheism as a "belief" but few who would classify it as a "religion" (unless they were attempting some form of intellectual sophistry).
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Old 4th July 2019, 08:25 PM   #1548
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are you sure that this is a connection that is not of your making?

I know plenty of religious people who classify atheism as a "belief" but few who would classify it as a "religion" (unless they were attempting some form of intellectual sophistry).
On the contrary, I have encountered many religious people who classify atheism as a religion. Your personal experience is not the whole world.
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Old 4th July 2019, 08:57 PM   #1549
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are you sure that this is a connection that is not of your making?

I know plenty of religious people who classify atheism as a "belief" but few who would classify it as a "religion" (unless they were attempting some form of intellectual sophistry).
Sophistry is exactly what they are attempting, to satisfy their own warped POV. And these people do insist that atheism is indeed a religion, i.e. a firmly held belief with a community of associated practices. For some reason, they seem to think all atheists continually "worship" Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. And that they actively promote anti-Christian religious thought (pastafarianism??). That, or Satanism.

It doesn't matter that they are inconsistent from person to person, or church to church. The commonality is they believe atheists believe like they do but not in Christianity, i.e. the devil (by definition, anything opposing Christianity is the work of Satan). And therefore atheism is a religion and they can wrap their heads around opposing it. The "fight with the devil" is ingrained in their belief.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
On the contrary, I have encountered many religious people who classify atheism as a religion. Your personal experience is not the whole world.
It's so common that it is a "given" for most modern evangelical churches. Logic does not enter into this.
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:44 AM   #1550
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
<snip>
It's so common that it is a "given" for most modern evangelical churches. Logic does not enter into this.
If you want an example here it is
https://strangenotions.com/is-atheism-a-religion/
Quote:
In this piece, I will use the term “religion” as follows:

Something is a religion if it has a position on the divine and/or the afterlife.

By “the divine” I mean God or the gods.

By “the afterlife” I mean “the afterlife”—what, if anything, happens to us after death.
The problem is that religion is far more than a belief in a God.
This what the IRS believes a religion is

Quote:
Certain characteristics are generally attributed to churches. These attributes of a church have been developed by the IRS and by court decisions. They include:

Distinct legal existence
Recognized creed and form of worship
Definite and distinct ecclesiastical government
Formal code of doctrine and discipline
Distinct religious history
Membership not associated with any other church or denomination
Organization of ordained ministers
Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study
Literature of its own
Established places of worship
Regular congregations
Regular religious services
Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young
Schools for the preparation of its members
The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics, together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether an organization is considered a church for federal tax purposes.
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-pr...urches-defined
Hardly any of this is relevant for atheist-ism.
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:45 AM   #1551
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Not sure how the guidelines for the American IRS apply here... it's probably broadly similar.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:16 PM   #1552
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Are we losing interest already?

Business bounce short-lived as election and RBA rate cut fail to deliver

Quote:
A flickering increase in business confidence appears to have been extinguished, and corporate Australia continues to lose momentum.

Those are the key findings of NAB's latest business survey, which has found business confidence tumbled back to below average levels in June after a brief bounce in May.

Business conditions picked up marginally, but also remain mired well below trend.

"Business confidence appears to have unwound its spike in May, which we think was driven by a short-term election bounce and increased optimism around a renewed interest rate-easing cycle by the RBA," NAB's chief economist Alan Oster said.

"While business conditions increased slightly in the month, they remain well below average after trending lower for over a year now.

"The decrease in conditions has been relatively broad-based across states and industries — suggesting that there has been sector-wide loss of momentum over the past year."
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:25 PM   #1553
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't understand why anybody would think the 2 successive interest rate cuts by the RBA making the cash rate the lowest ever would inspire confidence in anybody.

To me it looks like they have thrown in the towel.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:20 AM   #1554
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't understand why anybody would think the 2 successive interest rate cuts by the RBA making the cash rate the lowest ever would inspire confidence in anybody.

To me it looks like they have thrown in the towel.
The only solution is for the Government to spend big financed by a massive printing of money, with some borrowing.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:06 AM   #1555
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The only solution is for the Government to spend big financed by a massive printing of money, with some borrowing.
All they need to do is forget about the pointless objective of achieving a surplus in the next year. Save it for times when the economy is really growing.

A recession is virtually certain, which will require deficit spending. Do it now.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:38 AM   #1556
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Not this spineless mob...
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:53 AM   #1557
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
All they need to do is forget about the pointless objective of achieving a surplus in the next year. Save it for times when the economy is really growing.

A recession is virtually certain, which will require deficit spending. Do it now.
This mentality doesn't seem to have done the Yanks much good. That magical time when we can finally start reducing some of this government debt never arrives. We can always kick the problem farther up the road and let our kids deal with it.
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